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kingjammy24
01-24-2006, 03:06 PM
I found this thread on another forum and thought it was interesting (regardless of what sport you collect).
It was posted in December 2001.
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"Memo from Brad Foote, Vice President, Lelands.com Canada

Lot #1683 the Wayne Gretzky Edmonton Oilers Game Worn Jersey, has been withdrawn from our December 6-7th auction as I do not believe it is authentic.
Over the last few months, Lelands.com purchased a total of six Wayne Gretzky Edmonton Oilers game worn jerseys (the “Big Six”) from a highly respected sports uniform collector/dealer. The shirts included the blue Nike that is being pulled from this auction. The shirts were represented as coming from a family member of Wayne Gretzky’s. When I got to New York several weeks later I was able to examine the shirts along with the other Lelands.com principals Josh Evans, Michael Heffner and Keith Vari. The jerseys appeared to be perfect specimens. We later showed a couple of the shirts to Barry Meisel who apart from a concern over the coloring of the front crest on the one white Nike, concurred that the shirts were authentic. He added that the blue Nike was one of the nicest Gretzky gamers he had ever seen. We then sent a white Nike shirt to Milt Byron who examined the shirt and also gave it his approval. Before all of this, I was aware of a an eBay seller (“eBay Man”) who was offering high quality Wayne Gretzky “replica” game worn jerseys, which were mostly Los Angeles Kings and All Star shirts. A link to his website displayed images of a number of jerseys including three Wayne Gretzky Edmonton Nike’s and one Sandow. I contacted him and inquired into their authenticity and availability. He told me the shirts were in fact for sale at $2,500 for the Nike’s and $12,000 (?) for the Sandow and that they were in fact REAL game worn Wayne Gretzky shirts. I expressed interest in purchasing them. He did not get back to me for about a month and when he eventually did he said the shirts were all sold. This was all before we had even purchased any of the “Big Six.”
Although I still believed the “Big Six” were in fact real I had nagging suspicions. I continued to correspond with “eBay Man.” After a few emails he confided to me that he was in fact manufacturing Gretzky “conversions.” He went into great detail about how he was purchasing “common” Edmonton Oilers game worn jerseys from Barry Meisel (who confirmed this and was undoubtedly unaware of their eventual use) and converting them into replica Gretzky gamers. He had a special interest in shirts showing good wear and displaying the numbers “nine” and “six.” He claimed to have removed the numbers and mixed and matched them to make Gretzky “99” jerseys. He removed letters from the original nameplates, replacing them with newly manufactured lettering. A process he called “triple washing” was then used to perfectly match the overall coloring and puckering. He claimed that to have produced between 15 and 20 of these Gretzky conversions.
This week when I arrived in New York for the auction, I met with the other guys at Lelands to voice my concerns. Late last night (12-5-01) we exhaustingly compared the jerseys we had in our possession to photos on “eBay Man’s” website (who had just posted additional Gretzky gamers). We were able to photo match two of the jerseys on the site to two of the jerseys we had in our possession including a first year white Nike and the blue Nike in our auction.
Today we pulled the shirt from the auction and are making this information available to you. This guy does amazing work so be careful.
If you have any further questions please contact me at 516 409 9700 or at bradfoote@lelands.com. Brad Foote
VP, Lelands.com Canada"
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Barry Meisel's response:

"Hello everybody:

When problems like these arise, it is important ---VERY IMPORTANT--- that people stick to the facts, recite the facts correctly, and work only with the facts.
First, and most importantly, I pledge today that MeiGray will work with Lelands and any other dealer in the hobby willing to work together to get to the bottom of this problem. I support Brad Foote's attempts to get to the bottom of this.
Secondly, my examination of the two Gretzky jerseys I examined at Leland's was inaccurately reported by Brad. I just told Brad this on the telephone a few minutes ago, and I feel it's important to state to the Forum what I determined when I examined two of the jerseys. (I did not see the other four).
The blue Nike jersey pulled from the auction was the one I thought was 100% authentic. The repairs, customizations, tagging, sizing, nameplate, crest and game use seemed fine, and consistent with the nine authentic game-used Gretzkys we have registered into The MeiGrade System since 1998.
If (and I say if because this entire investigation is ongoing) the blue jersey in question had a number and/or nameplate change, then the person or persons restoring these jerseys is doing an alarmingly good job and something needs to be done to stop these jerseys from being offered as Gretzky gamers.
The one white Nike jersey I was asked to examine (and given the opportunity to purchase privately by Leland's) was one I had problems with. I told this to Mike Heffner and Brad Foote after spending an afternoon researching these two jerseys.
I told Brad and Mike that although I could not conclusively say the white jersey was bad since there were aspects of the jersey that were correct, I had questions about the jersey. I TOLD THEM I WASN NOT COMFORTABLE WITH IT, WOULD NOT BUY IT, AND WOULD NOT REGISTER IT INTO THE MEIGRADE SYSTEM IF SOMEBODY ELSE BOUGHT IT.
I unequivocally stated that the blue one, the one in auction, I would have. And so I will now take my share of the responsibility for researching exactly what this shirt is, so a mistake like this won't happen again.
As Brad stated, we have sold a number of jerseys to a person that Brad has said is converting them into Gretzky jerseys. We have the records of the jerseys, and will work with Brad to see if this person was doing them in good faith as replications, or was trying to deceive.
At this point, we don't know exactly how the customer did what he did. He purchased very few jerseys with 9s in them, so we believe (but we don't know for certain yet) that he could not have created a number of Gretzkys out of other shirts, without creating numbers himself.
We also want to wait until Leland's confirms the provenance of the jerseys in question, because that might shed light on the jerseys.
Again, we intend to work together with any and all dealers who have been affected by this. That, we believe, is the most responsible way to eliminate bad jerseys and bad people from our hobby.
Please feel free to post any information that you believe will be helpful, but please remember that until we get to the bottom of this problem, it would be unfair to come to any conclusions and unfair to make any premature accusations. Barry Meisel, MeiGray"

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Some guy named Milt responds:

I think first and foremost this thread needs to be deleted.

We are obviously dealing with some type of crime here and we do not need all the evidence, background work and what should be done next broadcasted all over the this website.
This is a perfect example of why I have said many, many times over the years, do your homework. Get the facts.
I would like to have the chance to see the jersey again, and actually now knowing there was six, I would like to see them all. I am will to work closely with Lelands on this. Having knowledge that six came from the same location would have certainly made my pinion different. When authenticating all I can do is tell you to the best of my knowledge the jersey is this or is that. With a key part of a Gretzky authentication being missing we can see how it can hurt the ability of an authenticator. I had no clue and should have been told that this was the case. Barry should have been told also. If I had been told there were six, ALRAM bells would have went off and I would have suggested a deeper background into the history of the item. A longer more extensive research project would have been suggested. Because 1 or 2 can happen, but six, no way.
Gretzky jersey are one of the toughest to authenticate.
We take lots of time and care in doing one. I have had some for 6 to 8 months at times, before saying ok or not ok. Normally the problem ones are the ones that take longer. Trying to figure out what was done, why this is that way or that is this way. One without problems obviously takes less time.
When I do a Gretzky jersey I like to know the complete background and not just where it came from. Sometime this is not always available as in this case. So you have to rely on what is told to you.
The reason for this is this case exactly. Someone has committed a detailedcrime here to pull a fast one on the hobby.
I knew this and that's why I do things the way I do them.
So you need to get all the information. Just as in any authentication, you need to know where the jersey came from.
We are dealing with a professional here obviously, a professional forger. I have tried to prepare myself and the hobby for this for years. We have been able to stop many forgers over the years and maybe even into the thousands of bad jerseys in 20yrs. Using a catch phrase from the 70's about what they said about Bernie Parent " Only the lord saves more than Bernie " Well, only the lord authenticates more correctly than I have. I have said I can't be right all the time. Like someone says, that's why I say, let me see it again, I know more today than yesterday, and I will know more tomorrow than today.
Authentication is a learning experience, we take this and learn from it. We have to study the evidence that's present to us in this. We have to map out a plan so this does not happen again. We as the leaders have this obligation to the hobby. No different than when something happens in other areas of life.When a crime is committed we as a public take certain steps to prevent it again and the law enforcement community takes steps to educate the public.Same thing here.
Another thing about authenticating is that when new information is brought to the table it can change an authenticators mind. If the evidence is great enough, I have been know to change my thoughts on jerseys. Most times this is from the jersey being bad to it being good. I like to error on the side of caution, if I choose to error. I don' think that a mistake was made by Barry in what he felt the jersey in the auction was. He did it to the best of his ability, based on all the information that was given to him. He is allowed to change his mind. So am I, where in the rule book does it say that once I put my blessings or unapproval on something that it's always that way. Right, its not written anywhere. New information, new evidence can always shed new light on an investigation. I see nothing wrong with this. I am only as good as my information at the time that my opinion is rendered. Barry gave his opinion on the Blue one. I gave one on the white one. based on new evidence turned up, certainly this could make the outcome different. But a out and out
mistake, nope.
I did not know I was looking at a custom crafted special the first time I saw one. It took a while for me to figure out what was going on, but I did. Same thing here, Brad has uncovered a crime and now we all band together to prevent this from happening again. Was this a mistake, no, I did not know a custom crafted existed till I figured it out. I bet lots of people out there are glad I did. I did not say, opps I made a mistake and chalk it up as a loss. No, I made it a public fake that I have passed on for years. Its not the end of the earth, Rome is not falling and your closet full of jerseys did not just loose all its value. A criminal was uncovered, so now we take care of it and move forward.
Education is the key to preventing this from happening again. That's what I have been doing for years and that's what I plan on continuing to do.
As for the back stabbers in this hobby, you'll never learn, you can't be
me,ya can't beat me, might as well give it up.
Nick, what are you smoking today? After I read your post, I thought my yulageeeeee was next. I thought the hobby was going to stop as we know it.Come on man get a grip. Everything's ok, the President is in the
Whitehouse.For a moment I thought that you was going to suggest that Barry and I never been in the same building at the same time for fear we might get blown up together. Come on man.
All that needs to be done is, like I said, the evidence that is uncovered, be evaluated by the top people in the hobby. A plan be put in place to preventit from happening again. Not a real hard thing to accomplish. Barry, Brad and I all have a great working relationship.

Thanks Milt
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hblakewolf
05-27-2009, 06:35 PM
While searching for information on Gretzky gamers, I located this old thread that's extremely insightful and at the same time, disturbing.

What's really interesting is that a dozen bogus Gretzky jerseys are fabricated, the source of these fakes has been identified, yet not a single person including the folks at Lelands, Barry Meisel or Milt Byron names the culprit?

Does anyone have an update to this and likewise, know who the source is?

Howard Wolf
hblakewolf@comcast.net

gingi79
05-27-2009, 07:12 PM
For those of you who don't know, this was one of the biggest issues the hockey game worn community encountered. It pales compared the the "CC Special" debacle but it was close.

Brad Foote now owns his own company called IceHouse. He has had some of the greatest and most plentiful array of jerseys ever assembled Most people know who Barry Meisel is and Milt Byron is known as the Godfather of Hockey game worns. He has literally brought tens of thousands of shirts through the hobby and even novice collectors looking through his old price lists will ooh and ahh over the multitude of shirts and how cheap they once were (He sold a Racers Wayne Gretzky for $7500. Add at least another zero on that price now)

The thread in question shows a few things. The first is integrity and the fact that rather than simply pull an item, the parties in question explained why and all details pertaining to them. Very transparent and I can think of a few collectors on this board who rather value that quality.

The second is that, as Milt has always said, Do Your Homework. After reading the Lebron Mears A5 thread, it is obvious to me that every item must be independently researched and maticulously questioned before purchased. This board is a true asset in that we have a great knowledge base amongst the members. If you aren't satisfied that the item is 1000% authentic, walk away. That would be my advice anyway.

Third, like most hobbies, if there is money to be made, there is somebody who can brilliantly fake anything. A Japanese businessman spend $4 mililon dollars on a Van Gogh painting that was perfectly faked. (Carbon dating was the only way to disprove it. The canvas was from the correct time, a few of the paints were not) There are fake Honus Wagner T206 baseball cards that sold for hundreds of thousands of dollars. I am not even going to discuss eBay and the millions of fakes online right now.

Lastly, the Custom Crafted Special that Milt refers to was even more amazing that what eBay Guy did. Imagine Steiner taking 0063 game issued Majestic jerseys, making them up for every big name player on the Yankees and adding wear then selling then as game worn. Now imagine doing it in the 1980s and early 90's before the average fan had access to Getty, Google, the internet, etc. How would you know they weren't real? Right! You wouldn't. Every marker pointed towards authenticity. CC was the official customizer of all of the Boston Bruins game used jerseys which means they made every real game used shirt. Then they added fake wear to countless Cam Neely, Ray Bourque, Adam Oats, etc shirts and sold them as game worn.

These weren't $150 shirts, they were thousands of dollars each. Many people in the hockey game worn hobby (including me) will never own a late 80's/ early 90's Cam Neely or Ray Bourque jersey because unless they are undoubtable photomatched, there is no way to know it's not a CC Special.

Neely8
05-27-2009, 09:45 PM
These weren't $150 shirts, they were thousands of dollars each. Many people in the hockey game worn hobby (including me) will never own a late 80's/ early 90's Cam Neely or Ray Bourque jersey because unless they are undoubtable photomatched, there is no way to know it's not a CC Special.

I disagree. There are plenty of characteristics that differentiate Custom Crafted Specials/fakes from legitimate game worn jerseys. You just have to be very knowledgable in that realm to be able to assess the real wear from the fake wear applied by the criminals at Custom Crafted. Since I am good friends with Milt Byron, fortunately I have seen enough legitimate game worn Bruins jerseys and Custom Crafted Specials over the years to be able to make an educated determination as to what is real and what isn't which is very helpful to me since I own close to 50 game worn Boston Bruins jerseys. Unfortunately a lot of collectors have not had that luxury. The Custom Crafted scandal was not limited only to Bruins jerseys either since they also did lettering for the Devils, Whalers, and I think the Blues too.

sportscentury
05-27-2009, 10:01 PM
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Some guy named Milt responds:

I think first and foremost this thread needs to be deleted.

We are obviously dealing with some type of crime here and we do not need all the evidence, background work and what should be done next broadcasted all over the this website.

[...]

Thanks Milt
---------------------------------------------------------------------

Please excuse my ignorance, as I'm not a hockey guy. Who is Milt?

Neely8
05-27-2009, 10:20 PM
Milt is Milt Byron of Byrons Hockeyland. He is one of the founders of the game worn hockey jersey industry.

sportscentury
05-27-2009, 10:31 PM
Milt is Milt Byron of Byrons Hockeyland. He is one of the founders of the game worn hockey jersey industry.

Neely, thanks. I started typing my last post before you made your first one. Just read both of your posts. Not asking you to speak for Milt, but since you know him well, what are your thoughts as to why he would want the thread deleted? When I read the thread, I immediately thought about how the thread may help to protect collectors from getting burned. Just curious.

Lokee
05-27-2009, 10:34 PM
www.byronshockeyland.com

NHL game worn expert

Neely8
05-27-2009, 11:06 PM
Neely, thanks. I started typing my last post before you made your first one. Just read both of your posts. Not asking you to speak for Milt, but since you know him well, what are your thoughts as to why he would want the thread deleted? When I read the thread, I immediately thought about how the thread may help to protect collectors from getting burned. Just curious.

I think Milt wanted the thread deleted so that the person in question, who was manufacturing the jerseys, would not be able to start to cover his tracks or come up with some kind of defense or excuse for his actions because he was exposed. If that information was continued to be made public he would have more time to prepare and know how to handle and the subsequent turmoil a lot better. Kind of like when you have a raid, you don't want the perpetrator to know it's coming.

sportscentury
05-27-2009, 11:41 PM
I think Milt wanted the thread deleted so that the person in question, who was manufacturing the jerseys, would not be able to start to cover his tracks or come up with some kind of defense or excuse for his actions because he was exposed. If that information was continued to be made public he would have more time to prepare and know how to handle and the subsequent turmoil a lot better. Kind of like when you have a raid, you don't want the perpetrator to know it's coming.

Neely, thanks ... got it.

jobathenut
05-28-2009, 12:25 AM
And also to add to the question,who is milt?.He is one of the nicest guys i've ever had the pleasure to deal with.You would be hard pressed to find a nicer guy in the game used industry.And to me,he is the know all expert when it comes to game used hockey items.If anyone can help you with anything you want to know about game used hockey,it's milt.He is the yoda of game used hockey-he's the best!!!!:)
Milt is Milt Byron of Byrons Hockeyland. He is one of the founders of the game worn hockey jersey industry.

kudu
05-28-2009, 12:37 AM
And also to add to the question,who is milt?.He is one of the nicest guys i've ever had the pleasure to deal with.You would be hard pressed to find a nicer guy in the game used industry.And to me,he is the know all expert when it comes to game used hockey items.If anyone can help you with anything you want to know about game used hockey,it's milt.He is the yoda of game used hockey-he's the best!!!!:)

I agree. When I first started collecting game jerseys, he was one of the first guys I dealt with. Very knowledgeable guy.

hblakewolf
05-28-2009, 08:46 AM
For those of you who don't know, this was one of the biggest issues the hockey game worn community encountered. It pales compared the the "CC Special" debacle but it was close.

Brad Foote now owns his own company called IceHouse. He has had some of the greatest and most plentiful array of jerseys ever assembled Most people know who Barry Meisel is and Milt Byron is known as the Godfather of Hockey game worns. He has literally brought tens of thousands of shirts through the hobby and even novice collectors looking through his old price lists will ooh and ahh over the multitude of shirts and how cheap they once were (He sold a Racers Wayne Gretzky for $7500. Add at least another zero on that price now)

The thread in question shows a few things. The first is integrity and the fact that rather than simply pull an item, the parties in question explained why and all details pertaining to them. Very transparent and I can think of a few collectors on this board who rather value that quality.

The second is that, as Milt has always said, Do Your Homework. After reading the Lebron Mears A5 thread, it is obvious to me that every item must be independently researched and maticulously questioned before purchased. This board is a true asset in that we have a great knowledge base amongst the members. If you aren't satisfied that the item is 1000% authentic, walk away. That would be my advice anyway.

Third, like most hobbies, if there is money to be made, there is somebody who can brilliantly fake anything. A Japanese businessman spend $4 mililon dollars on a Van Gogh painting that was perfectly faked. (Carbon dating was the only way to disprove it. The canvas was from the correct time, a few of the paints were not) There are fake Honus Wagner T206 baseball cards that sold for hundreds of thousands of dollars. I am not even going to discuss eBay and the millions of fakes online right now.

Lastly, the Custom Crafted Special that Milt refers to was even more amazing that what eBay Guy did. Imagine Steiner taking 0063 game issued Majestic jerseys, making them up for every big name player on the Yankees and adding wear then selling then as game worn. Now imagine doing it in the 1980s and early 90's before the average fan had access to Getty, Google, the internet, etc. How would you know they weren't real? Right! You wouldn't. Every marker pointed towards authenticity. CC was the official customizer of all of the Boston Bruins game used jerseys which means they made every real game used shirt. Then they added fake wear to countless Cam Neely, Ray Bourque, Adam Oats, etc shirts and sold them as game worn.

These weren't $150 shirts, they were thousands of dollars each. Many people in the hockey game worn hobby (including me) will never own a late 80's/ early 90's Cam Neely or Ray Bourque jersey because unless they are undoubtable photomatched, there is no way to know it's not a CC Special.

Gingi79-

Thanks for the additional information and insight to this issue.

Not being familiar with this, are you indicating that "CC" (Custom Crafted?) was behind introducing fake Bruins jerseys into the hobby?

Based on your statement, "this was one of the biggest issues the hockey game worn community encountered.", and the fact that this issue was first surfaced in 2001, 8 year after the fact one would believe that those individuals who fabricated the Gretzky jerseys would be common knowledge in the hockey collecting community, correct? Was it ever determined who fabricated and introduced the fake Gretzky's into the hobby?

Thanks.
Howard Wolf
hblakewolf@comcast.net

kingjammy24
05-28-2009, 02:52 PM
was custom crafted the manufacturer of the jerseys in question or were they just a lettering/numbering/customizing shop? did they actually make these jerseys or just letter them up for teams?

rudy.

Neely8
05-28-2009, 03:23 PM
Wow this is a popular topic on two game worn sites right now. Just to clarify, Custom Crafted had no involvement in the Gretzky jersey scandal. There criminal activity was relegated to putting out Bruins, Devils, Blues, and Whalers jerseys with fake wear. I posted the following on another site this morning so hopefully it will shed some light for those of you who have no idea what transpired.

Custom Crafted is a lettering company located in No. Attleboro, Ma. They did the lettering for the Bruins, Devils, and I think the Whalers and Blues. I can speak mostly for Bruins jerseys involved in this scandal since that is what I'm most familiar with. They used a game issued jersey since there is no difference at all between a legit jersey and a CC Special as far as the actual jersey itself. A lot were set stamped just like a legit gamer. They would apply manufactured wear to these jerseys in the form of fake stick marks, abrasions to the jersey which looked like they were done with a sharp implement, red lipstick type marks to try to resemble dasher marks (but it was the wrong color), fake interior wear located in the wrong places (for example you would find pilling directly on the elbow reinforcement not where it is supposed to be as well as pilling on the collar occasionally), wrinkling of the crest, no corrosion in the fight strap snaps, etc. The jersey would look hardly washed but have all this bogus wear on it. I never saw many fake repairs on Bruins CC Specials but I think Devils jerseys had them fairly often. So basically you would have a game issued jerseys with fake wear being passed off as a legit gamers by the company who lettered them. Most were relegated to star players (Bourque, Neely, Oates) but there are plenty of others that were introduced into the hobby as well. With Bruins there is everything from bogus regular home and roads, Last Hurrahs, TBC's, and All Star patched jerseys floating around out there. I would say that unless you have seen some CC Specials in the past or are very knowledgable about the hobby you could easily be fooled by them. Fortunately Milt Byron uncovered this unscrupulous activity many years ago and since he is a close friend of mine I was able to see a lot of it first hand so was educated about it directly.

hblakewolf
05-28-2009, 03:35 PM
Wow this is a popular topic on two game worn sites right now. Just to clarify, Custom Crafted had no involvement in the Gretzky jersey scandal. There criminal activity was relegated to putting out Bruins, Devils, Blues, and Whalers jerseys with fake wear. I posted the following on another site this morning so hopefully it will shed some light for those of you who have no idea what transpired.

Custom Crafted is a lettering company located in No. Attleboro, Ma. They did the lettering for the Bruins, Devils, and I think the Whalers and Blues. I can speak mostly for Bruins jerseys involved in this scandal since that is what I'm most familiar with. They used a game issued jersey since there is no difference at all between a legit jersey and a CC Special as far as the actual jersey itself. A lot were set stamped just like a legit gamer. They would apply manufactured wear to these jerseys in the form of fake stick marks, abrasions to the jersey which looked like they were done with a sharp implement, red lipstick type marks to try to resemble dasher marks (but it was the wrong color), fake interior wear located in the wrong places (for example you would find pilling directly on the elbow reinforcement not where it is supposed to be as well as pilling on the collar occasionally), wrinkling of the crest, no corrosion in the fight strap snaps, etc. The jersey would look hardly washed but have all this bogus wear on it. I never saw many fake repairs on Bruins CC Specials but I think Devils jerseys had them fairly often. So basically you would have a game issued jerseys with fake wear being passed off as a legit gamers by the company who lettered them. Most were relegated to star players (Bourque, Neely, Oates) but there are plenty of others that were introduced into the hobby as well. With Bruins there is everything from bogus regular home and roads, Last Hurrahs, TBC's, and All Star patched jerseys floating around out there. I would say that unless you have seen some CC Specials in the past or are very knowledgable about the hobby you could easily be fooled by them. Fortunately Milt Byron uncovered this unscrupulous activity many years ago and since he is a close friend of mine I was able to see a lot of it first hand so was educated about it directly.

Neely8-

Great information!

Can you or another Forum reader identify who was behind the bogus Gretzky jerseys?

Hard to believe this has gone unanswered, with Barry Meisel and other well-educated hockey experts on this site.

Howard Wolf
hblakewolf@comcast.net