PDA

View Full Version : Frank Viola Red Sox jersey



sylbry
01-30-2006, 09:24 PM
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=8758316218&rd=1&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWA%3AIT&rd=1

Can anyone speak to whether Frank Viola would have worn a 1991 jersey with the patch removed in 1992? Or is Ball Park Heros knowledgable enough to have known that this was done?

Just looking for a second opinion. Not questioning the seller or Ball Park Heros integrity. It is just that the last time I bought a jersey where the jersey year didn't match the yer the player should have worn it I got screwed.

Thanks,
Bryan

kingjammy24
01-30-2006, 11:15 PM
Bryan,

To answer your first question, the 'JRY' patch was worn in 1992 to memorialize the death of Jean Yawkey in February of 1992. As such, none of the Red Sox, including Viola, would've taken the field in 1992 without the JRY patch. If the jersey really was worn in 1992 with the JRY patch, then someone removed it after the season ended. Typically, when done by the team, the removal of a patch would be done so that the jersey could be worn the following season. (In this case, 1993).

There are other 'issues' with this jersey however:

- The jersey bears a 1986-1989 era Wilson tag. This is consistant with the time period during which Wilson supplied the Red Sox with jerseys. (Wilson supplied jerseys to the Red Sox from about 1979 to 1987). Wilson came out with a revised tag in 1990 and used it until 1993. (The Ebay jersey shows a 1986-1989 era tag.) Rawlings took over supplying Red Sox jerseys in 1990. (From 1988-1989, both Rawlings and Wilson supplied the Red Sox with jerseys). In short, if I were looking to purchase a 1991 Red Sox jersey, I would be looking for a Rawlings.

- In 1992, Russell entered the Major Leagues and supplied the majority of teams with their jerseys. The Red Sox were no exception. In 1992, the Red Sox jerseys were supplied by Russell. I don't believe the Red Sox took the field in 1992 with the JRY patch in Wilson jerseys. Personally, I'd really like to see the 'outline' of the JRY patch that the seller mentions.
Red Sox jerseys continued to be supplied by Russell throughout most of the 90's.

Interestingly enough, from 1986-1988, #16 was Kevin Romine.
There's a chance that this is a 1986-1988 era Red Sox jersey used by Kevin Romine, with a '91' year tag sewn on it. The '91' tag itself is consistent in style with how mid-late 80's Wilson Red Sox jerseys were tagged; however, I've only seen the year sewn in black. I've never seen it sewn in red.
I've seen a few early 90's Red Sox jerseys on Ebay made by Wilson. The last one was a 1991 Mo Vaughn who wore #42 during this time period with the Red Sox. Interestingly enough, #42 was worn during 86-88 by John Woodward, Dave Henderson, and John Trautwein.

See my images below:

http://img213.imageshack.us/img213/8624/redsox1ek.jpg

It's not uncommon for teams to remove patches and re-use jerseys again for the following year. In this case however, some things aren't adding up.

Rudy.

cohibasmoker
01-30-2006, 11:21 PM
I have a Red Sox jersey from the 1992 season with both the "JRY" initials and armband. If anyone would like a scan, please email me at flaa1a@comcast.net . Jim

R. C. Walker
01-30-2006, 11:39 PM
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=8758316218&rd=1&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWA%3AIT&rd=1

....Just looking for a second opinion. Not questioning the seller or Ball Park Heros integrity. It is just that the last time I bought a jersey where the jersey year didn't match the yer the player should have worn it I got screwed.

Thanks,
Bryan

Long story short. It's a Kevin Romine (http://baseball-almanac.com/players/player.php?p=rominke01) 1991 jersey with the memorial taken off. Romine played in 55 games for the BoSox in '91

R. C. Walker
01-30-2006, 11:44 PM
Neglected to add, can use some help with the RED year tag. I have only seen one or two others. Any help from Red Sox collectors?

kingjammy24
01-31-2006, 12:09 AM
RC,

How is it a '1991 Romine with JRY patch removed' if the JRY patch was worn in 1992?

Romine left the Sox after the 1991 season. The patch was applied in 1992. Who wore it in 1992?


Rudy.

Swoboda4
01-31-2006, 06:41 AM
Viola was on the Red Sox the entire year winning 13 games. Is it possible that the Sox are so cheap,and with no nameplates on the jersey to contend with,they re-issued Romine's(5'11'')jersey(to Viola 6'4")? Also Romines' been on the Sox continually since 1985.

kingjammy24
01-31-2006, 03:08 PM
Swoboda,

A dealer on this Forum has a 1987 Frank Viola game-worn Twins jersey.
It's a Rawlings jersey that's a size 46. Viola joined the Red Sox in 1992, so I don't see him taking less than a 46 at that point. Would 5'11 Romine take a 46? It's hard to imagine.

First, let's see what the Ebay jersey currently assumes:
- the Wilson tagging is from 86-89. The jersey is tagged as '91'. So, the Red Sox kept this jersey in storage for 2-5 yrs before issuing it.
- In 1991, #16 was worn by Romine. So, the Ebay jersey is saying that in 1992, the Red Sox gave Romine's old jersey to Viola. Viola then wore this jersey for 2 consecutive years. (I say 'consecutive' because why else would the JRY patch have been legitimately removed?)
- OR this jersey was tagged in 1991 and never worn by Romine and upon Frank's arrival in Boston in 1992, they gave it to him.

Here are the questions those assumptions raise:
Why would an 86-89 jersey have a '91' tag on it?
Would a Romine jersey fit Viola?
Does the Wilson tag and the numbers really look like they've got 2-3 years worth of wear on it? I would offer that they don't.

I believe that the Red Sox wore Russell jerseys in 1992. Even if there is a point of contention in them wearing Wilson or Rawlings in 1991, I don't believe they could've re-used either manufacturer in 1992 seeing as 1992 was their first year with a new manufacturer (Russell).
At a minimum I've shown that they indeed wore Russell jerseys in 1992, dated via the JRY patch.

I will email the seller and find out what size the jersey is. (Personally I have my doubts that there really is a 'slight outline' of the JRY patch).

p.s. "Romines' been on the Sox continually since 1985"
I don't understand what you mean by this?. Romine's last major league game was in 1991.


Rudy.

kingjammy24
01-31-2006, 03:14 PM
Unsure if it has any bearing, but the same seller is also offering this jersey:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=8757682317

I don't think any explanation is necessary as to why it's a farce of a jersey.


Rudy.

kingjammy24
01-31-2006, 04:58 PM
The Viola jersey is a size 46.

Romine was 5'11/185lbs. Would a size 46 be a likely size for him?

Maybe Wilson sizes run a bit smaller?

A few possibilities here (assuming there really is a 'slight outline' of the JRY patch and the patch was legitimately removed).

- the Red Sox received a size 46, with no numbers in 1991 and had it
tagged in 1991. (Why is Wilson sending older-style jerseys?)
- Viola joined the Sox in 1992, they then had "16" sewn on and gave it to
Viola.
-------------------------
or
- the jersey really was intended/worn by Romine and simply given to Viola in 1992. Aside from my photos showing Russell jerseys with the JRY patch, Bill Henderson's guide also lists "Russell" (in black) as the manufacturer for the Red Sox home jerseys in 1992.

If there really is no 'slight outline' of the JRY patch, then perhaps Romine took a 46 and this is simply a 1991 (or earlier) Romine.

Too many questions and oddities for me personally to feel comfortable
bidding on it.

Rudy.

Swoboda4
01-31-2006, 07:18 PM
I mean that Romine (1985-91)is the only other one that we can associate with this jersey to explain away the Wilson tag. Isn't the set tag applied once? Why would a team care enough about a set tag to change it? The Wilson + set tag =Problem. Thanks for info Senior K-J.

BPH32
02-01-2006, 01:54 PM
Hi,
Wow I am afraid some of the posts in this thread have "pushed my buttons" and there is so much good information on this forum but unfotunately sometimes I think there is about an equal amount of bad information. Although I can't say for sure this is a jersey we sold I believe that it is and if it is then it is one that we bought in bulk purchases from a former team employee many years ago in which there were lots of commons, a few stars, and several with the JRY letters removed (the letters along with a black twill strip were sewn on individually so the outline is easy to see). The tagging is correct for a 1991 home jersey and no the year tag has not been been added ( I guess because the poster hadn't seen this tagging before therefore it must be wrong). As I recall it did indeed have an outline of the JRY memorial letters (not a patch and why would anyone doubt that it would have an outline ?) that is why I noticed that it did and came up with the year used 1992 and player who wore #16 that year was Frank Viola. Wilson did make home jerseys through 1991 and believe it or not teams did use jerseys tagged from several years prior to the year actually used when the style didn't change (Russell did not change the style). No it's not as simple as "this is a 1991 Romine with the patch removed" this jersey might have been made for Romine but it was used by #16 in 1992 and that was not Romine plus they didn't have the "patch" in 1991. The size is consitent with Viola jerseys Wilson made that I have seen. As for whether Ball Park Heroes would have the knowledge to know? All I can say is that I am pretty certain that we have bought and sold more Red Sox jerseys from the 1979-95 time period than anyone over the last 15-20 years and with the experience of looking at lots of commons from those years comes knowlege. One last thing. Please don't throw all this info around as fact because I am afraid a lot of it isn't fact and it can cause more harm than good. I certainly don't know everything (my two sons think I know very little) and we do make mistakes but never intentionally.
Thanks, Kim Stigall
Ball Park Heroes
812-275-2717

hblakewolf
02-01-2006, 02:07 PM
Forum readers-
As a quick side note, for those new to the hobby, you may not be familiar with Ball Park Heroes or the Stigall brothers. On this site, we often read about various shady dealers from the past, or dealers with less than a perfect background.

I have been dealing with Kim at Ball Park Hereos for over 20 years, and have nothing but positive attributes for him. BPH has, and continues to have, some of the best game worn uniforms in the hobby. When it comes to authenticity, don't loose any sleep with an item you purchase from them.

Kim, you don't need to defend yourself. Your reputation speaks for itself.

Keep up the great offerings!

Howard Wolf
hblakewolf@pqtmedia.net

kingjammy24
02-01-2006, 02:45 PM
Kim,

Thanks for your reply and insight. Seeing as how it's mainly my posts you're referring to, I think a reply from me is owed.

"The tagging is correct for a 1991 home jersey"

The year tag is 'correct'. I don't believe anyone said otherwise, other than a couple of remarks about how it was rare to see it in red, as opposed to black. I maintain that the Wilson tag itself is 1986-89 era Wilson tag. If you doubt this, I'd be more than happy to provide relatively solid evidence to back up my claim. This in no way casts doubt on whether the Red Sox keep jerseys in storage (which I suggested they might) or whether Wilson sends out old jerseys. I'm simply saying the Wilson tag doesn't match the year tag. Why it doesn't is anyone's guess.

"no the year tag has not been been added ( I guess because the poster hadn't seen this tagging before therefore it must be wrong)."

Without being facetious or sarcastic, I'll say that I offered that the year tag MAY have been added, not because I 'hadn't seen it before', but rather because it didn't match the time period of the Wilson tag.

"why would anyone doubt that it would have an outline?"

- because all of the 1992 RedSox, JRY-patched jerseys I've seen have been Russell.
- because Bill Henderson further confirms that the 1992 Road Whites were supplied by Russell.
- because I can't see any outline at all in the Ebay photos (granted theyre low resolution and not close up).
- because the main reason the Red Sox would remove the JRY patch would be to use the jersey in 1993 and I have serious doubts that the Red Sox used Wilson jerseys in 1993.
- because the other jersey that the seller was offering was an outright, blatant fake. (It was a 'KC Royals 'game issued' Bo Jackson BP jersey.
It had a 2000-era MLB logo on the neck for pete's sake).

I fully admit I could be wrong, but those issues above caused me to offer that there may not be an outline.

"this jersey might have been made for Romine but it was used by #16 in 1992 and that was not Romine plus they didn't have the "patch" in 1991."

Kim, that's what part of the discussion centered around..would Romine take the same size as Viola? Because the jersey seemed to have been made for Romine. I even said that Viola would likely take a size 46 and was simply wondering if the 5'11 Romine would also take a 46. I even offered that Wilson jerseys might run a bit smaller.

"Please don't throw all this info around as fact because I am afraid a lot of it isn't fact and it can cause more harm than good.

Kim, very little was thrown around as 'fact'. If you'll notice, I offered several possible explanations for this jersey, many of which were exactly what your explanation is:

From my posts:
"..few possibilities here...
- the Red Sox received a size 46, with no numbers in 1991 and had it tagged in 1991.
- Viola joined the Sox in 1992, they then had "16" sewn on and gave it to Viola.
- the jersey really was intended/worn by Romine and simply given to Viola in 1992.
If there really is no 'slight outline' of the JRY patch, then perhaps Romine took a 46 and this is simply a 1991 (or earlier) Romine."

You say the jersey may have been made for Romine but was worn by Viola in 1992. Kim, that's one of the possibilities I gave. Given that it's not the most straight-forward jersey, I gave several possibilities for the purposes of discussion. I ended off by saying that I personally don't feel comfortable bidding on the jersey, which I still don't. Of course, that's simply a personal choice.

Rudy.

BPH32
02-01-2006, 04:50 PM
Actually it was supposed to be more of a general statement for the most part and not refering to you specificly on everything but I can see how you may have taken it that way. You might be right about it being an extra 1991 jersey that was numbered for use in 1992 but it would not have been year tagged by the team if that's what you meant. To my knowledge the teams don't put the year in as that is done by the manufacturer. I am not 100% sure what you are talking about on the Wilson tag but I will tell you that the years of usage on them is not cut in stone because there is almost always what I call "wash over" when older tags, bat labeling etc. are used in subsequent years. There is a good chance that most of the JRY jerseys you have seen came from us originally.
Kim Stigall
Ball Park Heroes
www.ballparkheroes.net (http://www.ballparkheroes.net)

cohibasmoker
02-01-2006, 05:31 PM
I have an unaltered Red Sox home jersey from 1992. It was made by Russell and has 5 tags in the tail. First, there is a Russell tag. Sewn UNDER the Russell tag is a year tag. Next to these tags, also sewn under the Russell tag is a 100% polyester tag. Then a blank tag. Whatever was on this tag must have washed off. Finally, there is a extra length tag. If interested, just email me at flaa1a@comcast.net and I'll send some scans of the entire jersey. THIS JERSEY IS NOT FOR SALE!!!!!



Happy to help.

cohibasmoker
02-01-2006, 05:39 PM
Tried to attach a scan of the tags for the Red Sox 1992 jersey. Let's see if it worked. Here goes

cohibasmoker
02-01-2006, 05:42 PM
Here are the JRY initials and armband.

cohibasmoker
02-01-2006, 05:44 PM
Here are the JRY initials and armband..

kingjammy24
02-01-2006, 06:27 PM
Kim,

re: my comments about the Wilson tagging.
As you know, manufacturer tags undergo visual revisions. Rawlings went from the red tag in the 80's to the white tag in the early 90's (and then quickly back to the red tag again). Wilson tags are no different in respect to having undergone revisions over the years. One of those revisions occurred in 1990. In 1990, Wilson MLB tags underwent a revision from the previous version which lasted from 1986-1989. The revision mainly entailed changing the size tag. In the 1986-89 version the size tag was a rectangular, paper tag with the words 'Care on Reverse'. In 1990, the size tag changed to a square, shiny cloth tag void of the 'Care on Reverse' verbage. I also feel the 'Wilson' font in the 1986-89 version was thicker and not quite as 'lean/sleek' as the version that came in 1990.
When I looked at the Ebay Viola, I felt the Wilson tag appeared to be the 1986-89 version because the font looked 'chunky'. However, looking at it again, I see now that, even though the size tag is completely curled up, it doesn't look large enough to be from 1986-89. That is, it looks like the smaller, more square 1990 revision. An error on my part.
See my image below for details. (Note to others: I will be updating my Wilson primer due to new information).
I still maintain that in 1991 the Red Sox wore Rawlings and in 1992 they wore Russell. I'm not saying they wore them exclusively. I have no way of knowing how many games Viola trotted out onto the field in 1992 in a Wilson jersey while the rest of his teammates wore Russell.
I also maintain that, personally, if I were purchasing a 92 Red Sox jersey with the JRY patch, I'd be more comfortable with a Russell.
Of all the Red Sox JRY jerseys you handled, were most of them Russell or Wilson?
I'm also confused as to why the patch would've been removed in this specific case.

At any rate, I think at this point, I think it'd be safe to say that the Red Sox received this jersey in 1991 and that was intended for Romine. Whether it was worn by him or not is unknown. If the outline exists, then it means it had the JRY patch affixed. If this is the case, then it means that in 1992, the Red Sox wore Russell and Wilson simultaneously. To me, this is a new revelation and discussions like this are the reasons this Forum is so valuable. Sure a couple of incorrect guesses may be made, but how else do you arrive at the truth? Unfortunately, 14 yr old jerseys don't always reveal the facts readily and the road to discovering them can sometimes be a little rocky.

http://img86.imageshack.us/img86/3700/bs1yg.jpg


Rudy.

Swoboda4
02-01-2006, 08:49 PM
Ah...,I don't know how to say this.. but.. there's a manager for Tim Marburger Dodge in Concord N.C.named Bob Zupcic. He was given number 16 in September of 1991 when he was called up from Pawtucket to the Red Sox. Romine left Boston and baseball on Aug 4,1991. Anyway,by the time Viola signed with the Sox it's January of 92. Who knows when he came around to ask Zupcic for #16? Zupcic used #28 in 92. Anybody feel like calling Zupcic (704-784-9270)?

Swoboda4
02-01-2006, 09:11 PM
This jersey gotten so much attention,I may just bid on this Zupcic jersey.http://i12.ebayimg.com/03/i/04/9e/85/fa_1_b.JPG

kingjammy24
02-02-2006, 01:03 AM
hmm.
Viola - 6'4, 209
Zupcic - 6'4, 200
Romine - 5'11, 185

In an era when jerseys were worn smaller/tighter, I'd offer than 46 might be too large for Romine. Perhaps this was a jersey made for Zupcic at the tail end of 1991 and tossed to Viola in 1992? They seem to be practically the same size, with Romine being the odd-man-out in terms of size.

I did find some photos of mighty Bob Zupcic in '92, with the JRY patch, in a Russell. Couldn't find any clear shots of him in a 1991 home uniform.

Anyway, this was a fun jersey to discuss. Hopefully nobody had their buttons pressed too hard.

Rudy.

kingjammy24
02-03-2006, 12:04 AM
After some private discussion with BPH/Kim Stigall, I think this thread warrants an update and conclusion. For me, it was all an interesting lesson in some of the finer points of this hobby.

I initally found this jersey confusing for a few main reasons:

- In 1992, Red Sox jerseys were supplied by Russell. Kim confirms this. Yet this was a 1991-tagged Wilson with a 1992 patch removed.

- Not only did I think the manufacturer was incorrect for 1992, but also for 1991. I believed that as a 1991 Red Sox jersey, it should've been a Rawlings. The reason behind this was because I have a ton of photos of the 1991 Red Sox clearly showing them in Rawlings jerseys. What I failed to realize was that all of the photos showed them in their road jerseys. Of the handful of 1991 Red Sox home jersey photos I have, none showed the right sleeve. Since it's somewhat uncommon for a team to have road jerseys from one manufacturer and home jerseys from another in the same year, I made the 'leap of logic' that if their road jerseys were Rawlings, then their home jerseys most likely were too. Here's where I made my main error. I failed to make the distinction between their home and road jerseys.

- I was also confused as to why the patch would be legitimately removed from this Wilson jersey for subsequent use in 1993 when in 1992, the team knew it it would be wearing Russell in 1993.

In my mind, these were some relatively substantial issues; 2 consecutive incorrect manufacturers and the illogical removal of a patch.

After speaking with BPH/Kim, here is what I believe the truth of the matter is and where I went wrong:

In 1991, the Red Sox road grey's were indeed supplied by Rawlings (and Rawlings only as far as I can tell). Kim and I both agree on this. Their home whites, however, were supplied by Wilson. (Although rare, it's not the first, or second, time I've seen this happen. Bill Henderson's guide furthermore states that both road and home jerseys for the Red Sox in 1990 and 1991 were supplied solely by Rawlings). So in 1991, it turns out that the home and road jerseys were supplied by different manufacturers and that is where I made my main error.
So as a 1991 HOME Red Sox jersey, the Viola jersey is not incorrect to be a Wilson. The Red Sox received this jersey in 1991. Size 46, #16. Most likely meant for Bob Zupcic, who was practically the same height and weight as Viola. Zupcic relinquished the number in 1992. In 1992, the Sox received their Russell jerseys and sewed on the JRY patch. However, it seems they also took their old 1991 Wilson home jerseys and sewed the JRY patch on those as well. In 1992 then, the Red Sox took the field at Fenway wearing a combination of 1992 Russell and 1991 Wilson jerseys, all with the JRY patch. It appears they were even sloppier than the Yankees when it came to uniforms. As for the removal of the patch, it was suggested that this was done for spring training and I believe this makes sense.

For me, the discussion was never about BPH or Kim Stigall. I've purchased from them before and would not have done so if I thought they were shady. It was solely about this initially-confusing 1991/92 Viola. Hope others learned as much as I did from it.

Rudy.