Frank Viola Red Sox jersey

[sylbry]

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=8758316218&rd=1&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWA%3AIT&rd=1

Can anyone speak to whether Frank Viola would have worn a 1991 jersey with the patch removed in 1992? Or is Ball Park Heros knowledgable enough to have known that this was done?

Just looking for a second opinion. Not questioning the seller or Ball Park Heros integrity. It is just that the last time I bought a jersey where the jersey year didn't match the yer the player should have worn it I got screwed.

Thanks,
Bryan

[kingjammy24]

Re: Frank Viola Red Sox jersey

Bryan,

To answer your first question, the 'JRY' patch was worn in 1992 to memorialize the death of Jean Yawkey in February of 1992. As such, none of the Red Sox, including Viola, would've taken the field in 1992 without the JRY patch. If the jersey really was worn in 1992 with the JRY patch, then someone removed it after the season ended. Typically, when done by the team, the removal of a patch would be done so that the jersey could be worn the following season. (In this case, 1993).

There are other 'issues' with this jersey however:

- The jersey bears a 1986-1989 era Wilson tag. This is consistant with the time period during which Wilson supplied the Red Sox with jerseys. (Wilson supplied jerseys to the Red Sox from about 1979 to 1987). Wilson came out with a revised tag in 1990 and used it until 1993. (The Ebay jersey shows a 1986-1989 era tag.) Rawlings took over supplying Red Sox jerseys in 1990. (From 1988-1989, both Rawlings and Wilson supplied the Red Sox with jerseys). In short, if I were looking to purchase a 1991 Red Sox jersey, I would be looking for a Rawlings.

- In 1992, Russell entered the Major Leagues and supplied the majority of teams with their jerseys. The Red Sox were no exception. In 1992, the Red Sox jerseys were supplied by Russell. I don't believe the Red Sox took the field in 1992 with the JRY patch in Wilson jerseys. Personally, I'd really like to see the 'outline' of the JRY patch that the seller mentions.
Red Sox jerseys continued to be supplied by Russell throughout most of the 90's.

Interestingly enough, from 1986-1988, #16 was Kevin Romine.
There's a chance that this is a 1986-1988 era Red Sox jersey used by Kevin Romine, with a '91' year tag sewn on it. The '91' tag itself is consistent in style with how mid-late 80's Wilson Red Sox jerseys were tagged; however, I've only seen the year sewn in black. I've never seen it sewn in red.
I've seen a few early 90's Red Sox jerseys on Ebay made by Wilson. The last one was a 1991 Mo Vaughn who wore #42 during this time period with the Red Sox. Interestingly enough, #42 was worn during 86-88 by John Woodward, Dave Henderson, and John Trautwein.

See my images below:



It's not uncommon for teams to remove patches and re-use jerseys again for the following year. In this case however, some things aren't adding up.

Rudy.

[cohibasmoker]

Re: Frank Viola Red Sox jersey

I have a Red Sox jersey from the 1992 season with both the "JRY" initials and armband. If anyone would like a scan, please email me at flaa1a@comcast.net . Jim

[R. C. Walker]

Re: Frank Viola Red Sox jersey

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...MEWA%3AIT&rd=1

....Just looking for a second opinion. Not questioning the seller or Ball Park Heros integrity. It is just that the last time I bought a jersey where the jersey year didn't match the yer the player should have worn it I got screwed.

Thanks,
Bryan

Long story short. It's a Kevin Romine 1991 jersey with the memorial taken off. Romine played in 55 games for the BoSox in '91

[R. C. Walker]

Re: Frank Viola Red Sox jersey

Neglected to add, can use some help with the RED year tag. I have only seen one or two others. Any help from Red Sox collectors?

[kingjammy24]

Re: Frank Viola Red Sox jersey

RC,

How is it a '1991 Romine with JRY patch removed' if the JRY patch was worn in 1992?

Romine left the Sox after the 1991 season. The patch was applied in 1992. Who wore it in 1992?


Rudy.

[Swoboda4]

Re: Frank Viola Red Sox jersey

Viola was on the Red Sox the entire year winning 13 games. Is it possible that the Sox are so cheap,and with no nameplates on the jersey to contend with,they re-issued Romine's(5'11'')jersey(to Viola 6'4")? Also Romines' been on the Sox continually since 1985.

[kingjammy24]

Re: Frank Viola Red Sox jersey

Swoboda,

A dealer on this Forum has a 1987 Frank Viola game-worn Twins jersey.
It's a Rawlings jersey that's a size 46. Viola joined the Red Sox in 1992, so I don't see him taking less than a 46 at that point. Would 5'11 Romine take a 46? It's hard to imagine.

First, let's see what the Ebay jersey currently assumes:
- the Wilson tagging is from 86-89. The jersey is tagged as '91'. So, the Red Sox kept this jersey in storage for 2-5 yrs before issuing it.
- In 1991, #16 was worn by Romine. So, the Ebay jersey is saying that in 1992, the Red Sox gave Romine's old jersey to Viola. Viola then wore this jersey for 2 consecutive years. (I say 'consecutive' because why else would the JRY patch have been legitimately removed?)
- OR this jersey was tagged in 1991 and never worn by Romine and upon Frank's arrival in Boston in 1992, they gave it to him.

Here are the questions those assumptions raise:
Why would an 86-89 jersey have a '91' tag on it?
Would a Romine jersey fit Viola?
Does the Wilson tag and the numbers really look like they've got 2-3 years worth of wear on it? I would offer that they don't.

I believe that the Red Sox wore Russell jerseys in 1992. Even if there is a point of contention in them wearing Wilson or Rawlings in 1991, I don't believe they could've re-used either manufacturer in 1992 seeing as 1992 was their first year with a new manufacturer (Russell).
At a minimum I've shown that they indeed wore Russell jerseys in 1992, dated via the JRY patch.

I will email the seller and find out what size the jersey is. (Personally I have my doubts that there really is a 'slight outline' of the JRY patch).

p.s. "Romines' been on the Sox continually since 1985"
I don't understand what you mean by this?. Romine's last major league game was in 1991.


Rudy.

[kingjammy24]

Re: Frank Viola Red Sox jersey

Unsure if it has any bearing, but the same seller is also offering this jersey:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=8757682317

I don't think any explanation is necessary as to why it's a farce of a jersey.


Rudy.

[kingjammy24]

Re: Frank Viola Red Sox jersey

The Viola jersey is a size 46.

Romine was 5'11/185lbs. Would a size 46 be a likely size for him?

Maybe Wilson sizes run a bit smaller?

A few possibilities here (assuming there really is a 'slight outline' of the JRY patch and the patch was legitimately removed).

- the Red Sox received a size 46, with no numbers in 1991 and had it
tagged in 1991. (Why is Wilson sending older-style jerseys?)
- Viola joined the Sox in 1992, they then had "16" sewn on and gave it to
Viola.
-------------------------
or
- the jersey really was intended/worn by Romine and simply given to Viola in 1992. Aside from my photos showing Russell jerseys with the JRY patch, Bill Henderson's guide also lists "Russell" (in black) as the manufacturer for the Red Sox home jerseys in 1992.

If there really is no 'slight outline' of the JRY patch, then perhaps Romine took a 46 and this is simply a 1991 (or earlier) Romine.

Too many questions and oddities for me personally to feel comfortable
bidding on it.

Rudy.

[Swoboda4]

Re: Frank Viola Red Sox jersey

I mean that Romine (1985-91)is the only other one that we can associate with this jersey to explain away the Wilson tag. Isn't the set tag applied once? Why would a team care enough about a set tag to change it? The Wilson + set tag =Problem. Thanks for info Senior K-J.

[BPH32]

Re: Frank Viola Red Sox jersey

Hi,
Wow I am afraid some of the posts in this thread have "pushed my buttons" and there is so much good information on this forum but unfotunately sometimes I think there is about an equal amount of bad information. Although I can't say for sure this is a jersey we sold I believe that it is and if it is then it is one that we bought in bulk purchases from a former team employee many years ago in which there were lots of commons, a few stars, and several with the JRY letters removed (the letters along with a black twill strip were sewn on individually so the outline is easy to see). The tagging is correct for a 1991 home jersey and no the year tag has not been been added ( I guess because the poster hadn't seen this tagging before therefore it must be wrong). As I recall it did indeed have an outline of the JRY memorial letters (not a patch and why would anyone doubt that it would have an outline ?) that is why I noticed that it did and came up with the year used 1992 and player who wore #16 that year was Frank Viola. Wilson did make home jerseys through 1991 and believe it or not teams did use jerseys tagged from several years prior to the year actually used when the style didn't change (Russell did not change the style). No it's not as simple as "this is a 1991 Romine with the patch removed" this jersey might have been made for Romine but it was used by #16 in 1992 and that was not Romine plus they didn't have the "patch" in 1991. The size is consitent with Viola jerseys Wilson made that I have seen. As for whether Ball Park Heroes would have the knowledge to know? All I can say is that I am pretty certain that we have bought and sold more Red Sox jerseys from the 1979-95 time period than anyone over the last 15-20 years and with the experience of looking at lots of commons from those years comes knowlege. One last thing. Please don't throw all this info around as fact because I am afraid a lot of it isn't fact and it can cause more harm than good. I certainly don't know everything (my two sons think I know very little) and we do make mistakes but never intentionally.
Thanks, Kim Stigall
Ball Park Heroes
812-275-2717

[hblakewolf]

Re: Frank Viola Red Sox jersey

Forum readers-
As a quick side note, for those new to the hobby, you may not be familiar with Ball Park Heroes or the Stigall brothers. On this site, we often read about various shady dealers from the past, or dealers with less than a perfect background.

I have been dealing with Kim at Ball Park Hereos for over 20 years, and have nothing but positive attributes for him. BPH has, and continues to have, some of the best game worn uniforms in the hobby. When it comes to authenticity, don't loose any sleep with an item you purchase from them.

Kim, you don't need to defend yourself. Your reputation speaks for itself.

Keep up the great offerings!

Howard Wolf
hblakewolf@pqtmedia.net

[kingjammy24]

Re: Frank Viola Red Sox jersey

Kim,

Thanks for your reply and insight. Seeing as how it's mainly my posts you're referring to, I think a reply from me is owed.

"The tagging is correct for a 1991 home jersey"

The year tag is 'correct'. I don't believe anyone said otherwise, other than a couple of remarks about how it was rare to see it in red, as opposed to black. I maintain that the Wilson tag itself is 1986-89 era Wilson tag. If you doubt this, I'd be more than happy to provide relatively solid evidence to back up my claim. This in no way casts doubt on whether the Red Sox keep jerseys in storage (which I suggested they might) or whether Wilson sends out old jerseys. I'm simply saying the Wilson tag doesn't match the year tag. Why it doesn't is anyone's guess.

"no the year tag has not been been added ( I guess because the poster hadn't seen this tagging before therefore it must be wrong)."

Without being facetious or sarcastic, I'll say that I offered that the year tag MAY have been added, not because I 'hadn't seen it before', but rather because it didn't match the time period of the Wilson tag.

"why would anyone doubt that it would have an outline?"

- because all of the 1992 RedSox, JRY-patched jerseys I've seen have been Russell.
- because Bill Henderson further confirms that the 1992 Road Whites were supplied by Russell.
- because I can't see any outline at all in the Ebay photos (granted theyre low resolution and not close up).
- because the main reason the Red Sox would remove the JRY patch would be to use the jersey in 1993 and I have serious doubts that the Red Sox used Wilson jerseys in 1993.
- because the other jersey that the seller was offering was an outright, blatant fake. (It was a 'KC Royals 'game issued' Bo Jackson BP jersey.
It had a 2000-era MLB logo on the neck for pete's sake).

I fully admit I could be wrong, but those issues above caused me to offer that there may not be an outline.

"this jersey might have been made for Romine but it was used by #16 in 1992 and that was not Romine plus they didn't have the "patch" in 1991."

Kim, that's what part of the discussion centered around..would Romine take the same size as Viola? Because the jersey seemed to have been made for Romine. I even said that Viola would likely take a size 46 and was simply wondering if the 5'11 Romine would also take a 46. I even offered that Wilson jerseys might run a bit smaller.

"Please don't throw all this info around as fact because I am afraid a lot of it isn't fact and it can cause more harm than good.

Kim, very little was thrown around as 'fact'. If you'll notice, I offered several possible explanations for this jersey, many of which were exactly what your explanation is:

From my posts:
"..few possibilities here...
- the Red Sox received a size 46, with no numbers in 1991 and had it tagged in 1991.
- Viola joined the Sox in 1992, they then had "16" sewn on and gave it to Viola.
- the jersey really was intended/worn by Romine and simply given to Viola in 1992.
If there really is no 'slight outline' of the JRY patch, then perhaps Romine took a 46 and this is simply a 1991 (or earlier) Romine."

You say the jersey may have been made for Romine but was worn by Viola in 1992. Kim, that's one of the possibilities I gave. Given that it's not the most straight-forward jersey, I gave several possibilities for the purposes of discussion. I ended off by saying that I personally don't feel comfortable bidding on the jersey, which I still don't. Of course, that's simply a personal choice.

Rudy.

[BPH32]

Re: Frank Viola Red Sox jersey

Actually it was supposed to be more of a general statement for the most part and not refering to you specificly on everything but I can see how you may have taken it that way. You might be right about it being an extra 1991 jersey that was numbered for use in 1992 but it would not have been year tagged by the team if that's what you meant. To my knowledge the teams don't put the year in as that is done by the manufacturer. I am not 100% sure what you are talking about on the Wilson tag but I will tell you that the years of usage on them is not cut in stone because there is almost always what I call "wash over" when older tags, bat labeling etc. are used in subsequent years. There is a good chance that most of the JRY jerseys you have seen came from us originally.
Kim Stigall
Ball Park Heroes
www.ballparkheroes.net