What are your thoughts on GAME USED THEN compared to GAME USED NOW

[3arod13]

Curious about your thoughts on GAME USED THEN compared to GAME USED NOW.

First, I'm concerned with the massive amounts of Game Used stuff. Players are signing with multiple promoters to sell their game used stuff.

Second, I'm concered about it is truly game used. Meaning, many players will use an item for the sole purpose of handing it over to be sold. It is really game used? Is it really something a player would have used because he like it?

Third, to find authentic game used stuff back then is much more difficult and much more rarer than find game used today.

Lastly, the authenticity of today's GAME USED. So difficult today, especially with the massive amounts out there.

Your thoughs?

[bigtruck260]

What is confusing is the fact that players share equipment. Just because a bat says ALBERT PUJOLS on it does not mean he used it. I see Albert bats with tape being sold as his gamers...I tell the sellers, and they ignore it.

I also see bats that show his type of use...but unless you photo match it, or see it used by the player - you never know what you really have. Player letters are worthless as many of the A-Rod MVP COA's have shown.

[3arod13]

What is confusing is the fact that players share equipment. Just because a bat says ALBERT PUJOLS on it does not mean he used it. I see Albert bats with tape being sold as his gamers...I tell the sellers, and they ignore it.

I also see bats that show his type of use...but unless you photo match it, or see it used by the player - you never know what you really have. Player letters are worthless as many of the A-Rod MVP COA's have shown.

Agree. Someone recently on GUU was looking for a photo match for a pair of Manny Ramirez Game Used Batting Gloves. Someone posted a picture of David Ortiz actually using them.

[eGameUsed]

I think the sharing of equipment has been going on for years, it just wasn't as obvious. Today, we (us collectors) are looking at every move the guys make to see what the latest trend is. In 2005, Roger Clemens used at least one Craig Biggio bat until his order of H176s came in. Brad Ausmus used Jeff Bagwell bats in late 2004 until he got his own maple B363. To go with my point, I have a 1965 Ron Brand bat with #11 on the knob (could have been Eddie Mathews or a variety of other players from the 1965-68 era).

As far as collecting, the hobby has changed a ton. My first bat was given to me after a game. In the 1980s, the Astros used to throw cracked bats in the dumpster or the Bullpen attendent would cut them up and turn them into lamps. Can you imagine if Stretch Suba would even think of chopping up a Craig Biggio or Roger Clemens bat to turn into a lamp? People would go crazy. Things have changed!

[3arod13]

If it can be proven, I do think it's pretty to have a Alex Rodriguez game used bat that Derek Jeter also used. I recall one GU bat on ebay that was being sold as a Griffey Jr. GU bat that was also used by arod. The PSA letter also stated that. However, nobody bid on it and many in this forum questioned how can that be proved/determined. Pretty cool to have one though, if authentic.

[3arod13]

If it can be proven, I do think it's pretty to have a Alex Rodriguez game used bat that Derek Jeter also used. I recall one GU bat on ebay that was being sold as a Griffey Jr. GU bat that was also used by arod. The PSA letter also stated that. However, nobody bid on it and many in this forum questioned how can that be proved/determined. Pretty cool to have one though, if authentic.

Meant "PRETTY COOL to have...

[bigjimsguitars]

The fact that players share bats, Batting Gloves and other stuff is not new. When I first started collecting GU, it was much easier for the average Joe to get legit stuff directly from the actual player or team. At least that was true for me. Moreover, there were many reliable dealers who got stuff that was right and sold it right.

Sure, there was some stuff that was not kosher or Jake, but I would have to think today it's more so due to the price tags some of this stuff commands.

I think the whole thing over the fake autographs and such in the mid to late 1990's was a very telling thing and it eventually worked it's way into all facets of sports memorabilia. LOA's. COA's are only as good as you know what in most instances, but there are some experts and some true caretakers of this arena that really are trying to make it a clean and above board hobby. But one has to remember that there is no exact science to any of this and some stuff will get passed as being something it's not and some of it will pass the scrutiny of experts as being kosher or jake. At the same time, legit stuff will also be rejected.

The golden rule of thumb is to educate yourself to what you collect and that really isn't too hard when one has the passion and in the technological age of the internet that can be a bountiful area of gaining real knowledge. A good example is this forum that didn't exist just a few years ago.

[TNTtoys]

Here is my quick answer...

Then - most buying & selling was done through traditional networking... conventions, shows, mailing lists, and the good old telephone.
Now - mostly done over the computer.

Then - not much product in the hobby.
Now - the game used market has exploded. There are way too many items from current players. I suppose there are a lot of people that have caught onto this over the years and have found that it is a quick & easy way to make a buck. Furthermore, the number of channels have expanded considerably, if you start to include fan fests, MLB auctions, ebay, web stores, and every other online auction house.

Then - less educated buyers. There were not many channels available to the buying public, the number of people you could obtain game used from was very limited...hence, you would tend to form relationships with and trust these individuals on the face value of these items.
Now - well, as the number of sellers increased exponentially and the amount of garbage product to enter the hobby has as well, buyers have needed to better educate themselves as to what they are buying and what price they should buying the good stuff at... and the internet has made this available to everyone... that is, everyone who cares to take advantage of it. Sites like this one and the MEARS site for knowledge sharing, and even the new SCD auctions site that provides the history for sports collectibles sold in any recent auctions are there to educate... as well as the general number of photos available on sites such as Getty, Photo File, the MLB site, team sites, etc. for photo matching and style matching.

Overall, I see the game used hobby today in a growing state, and the number of resources available to buyers is far and beyond what it was back then. You just need to do your homework and make use of the networks that are available...

[kingjammy24]

re: supply

"I'm concerned with the massive amounts of Game Used stuff. Players are signing with multiple promoters to sell their game used stuff."

don't collect contemporary stuff then ;)

as soon as teams, players, and a few others clued in to how much potentially easy money there was to be made, the market predictably flooded. it's the same with most such things though isn't it? the cycle is tediously predictable - people find new source of easy money, everyone piles in, market becomes flooded, prices plunge from oversupply, sellers and previous buyers lose money, fire sales occur, contrived "limited editions" occur to prevent the overflooding that previously occurred. of course, it's still the same amount of stuff because these people need to make their profits, but now everything's in a concocted "limited series". it's exactly what happened with trading cards. the trading card hobby was going well until the 90s. the idiots at the top thought "if we make X dollars from producing X amount, then we'll make twice as much if we produce twice as much!". the market became flooded, prices plunged, people lost money and interest because things were no longer rare. rather than truly reducing production runs though, the card companies simply started numbering batches out of 20 or 100 or whatever and calling it a "limited edition". of course they're still pumping out a billion cards a year but hey, now it's in numbered groups of 20 so it's different right. whatever it is, it isn't truly limited supply like the supply of cards from the 50s for example.

much like the card companies, the teams and players think they're just meeting the market supply and the more they pump out, the happier everyone is. they don't realize they're oversaturating it and consequently killing it. unfortunately, although it's a short-lived gravy train, i don't see it stopping any time soon. it may even get worse before they realize collectors don't want a set 45 jersey that was worn for 2 games. those who do certainly aren't going to pay nearly the price they would've paid had it been worn for half the season and hammered with use; ie: the kind you found in the 80s.

prior to this flooding, you'd see really nice pieces that had seen serious action. now it seems like so much of it is simply a cash grab. the tangible history of it all is gone. while i prefer my jays jerseys to be home jerseys, i like my other mlb jerseys to be road jerseys. i prefer the road jerseys because i like the idea that they've travelled all over the country and been in many stadiums. i like the idea that the jersey has been through a lot. now, it seems like the idea is to get a $100, have it be worn for as little as possible so that some corporation can churn it over for $1000 profit asap. to them, a game-worn jersey is a game-worn jersey; 1 game is the same as 180 games; it's all "game worn" so why wait 4 months to sell a hammered jersey when they can sell 20 jerseys in that same time frame? there's little history in them anymore. they see a couple of games and are then sold.

i don't know the inner workings of majestic or an mlb clubhouse but i suspect everyone is getting in on it. pro-issue jerseys are flying out of the factory. who knows if they're even being worn for the requisite one game (in order to be called "game worn") before they end up in an auction house. i'm sure the friends of star players are hounding them to place orders for boxloads knowing they can sell them for thousands of tax-free dollars. if you're a friend of ortiz and you want a new beemer, how easy is it to just get him to place an order for 20 jerseys? $2k a pop with "rock solid provenance!" = $40k, tax free. papi's friend gets his beemer, papi is happy because he helped out his friend at no cost to him and the market gets flooded. majestic, papi, or papi's friends don't care or even know what they're doing to the hobby.

all of that said, i have to wonder if it's the players who are simply intentionally wearing more jerseys per season than or if the access to pro-issue jerseys has just exploded. most of the jerseys you see these days are pretty crisp. you rarely see ones with the sort of pounding you'd see on jerseys from the 80s. i'm not entirely sure it's entirely because players are wearing more jerseys. here's a photo of some players from the recent angels-redsox series. check out that insane puckering on the numbers. beautiful stuff. yet when was the last time you saw a 2006 or 2007 jersey that showed that much wear?

http://img179.imageshack.us/img179/5194/angelsal5.jpg

of course, in viewing other pics of that series, i noticed some angels had jerseys that showed perfectly crisp numbers.

for more on the topic:

http://www.gameuseduniverse.com/vb_forum/showthread.php?t=5814

http://www.gameuseduniverse.com/vb_forum/showthread.php?t=4578

rudy.

[Carlevv]

Good post Rudy, Griffey and AROD started the whole Jersey frenzy back in their Seattle days. They would order boxes of them like you said and signed them game used. AROD, Pudge, and Rafeal Palmerio were doing it in Texas. Texas Ranger management questioned the Rangers equipement manager on the issue thinking he was selling them and essentialy stealling from the team. What the team decieded to do was when the players ordered the jerseys Rawlings would tag them set 3 so they could keep track of the real gamers that were marked set 1 and 2. If you look at all of the ASI jereseys of those three players that were sold as game used i would bet 99 percent of them say set 3. Too bad for anyone who bought them.

[R. C. Walker]

Game Used Then, there was no such thing as “Game Issued”.

[karamaxjoe]

It's at the point in the last few years where any active player jersey is a risk. Unless you can photmatch your modern day jersey beyond a shadow of a doubt, you're probably better staying away. I personally don't like buying any jersey from an active player or a star player from the last ten to twenty years. Unfortunately I will always need a few of those to fill out my collection.

I noticed a Jermaine Dye White Sox jersey sold today on ebay for only $177.00 that was a set 14. Should a jersey from the year Dye was the WS MVP sell for only $177.00? Maybe it should when your dealing with jerseys with sets in the teens.

You guys can have all the Arod, Irod and whatever rod jerseys you want. I'm sure by the time Arod is done playing, at least a thousand jerseys will be in the hobby with the claim they are game used. Some collectors are not bothered by those sheer numbers and I respect that opinion. I for one would rather have a rare flannel over the rods any day.

Mike

[bigjimsguitars]

Kingjammy24 pretty much nailed it...

I still like even the lightly used Game Used Jersey's if they are the real deal and I don't think it will ever go back to the 80's were a player may have had two or three sets of jersey's (home, road and alternate) to last the whole season.

That's not to say that there aren't some real nice new Jersey's to be had and I personally like the idea that prices are coming down on the newer stuff as that means I can get more for my working dollar.

I must caution that photo-matching is not foolproof and while it's a nice tool, it's just that, a tool.

I love GU Jersey's, but I also dig a good GU bat or Glove as they are the real tools of the trade that each player hand selects for game use and no two are exactly the same....

[bigtruck260]

I think that is why - although cantankerous at times, I can appreciate that Albert Pujols and Mark McGwire were and are always tuned into the hobby. They do not want fans getting ripped off, so bats of theirs are much harder to come by...

And by the grace of God you do find a TRUE gamer, you are paying for it.

Pujols has no GAME USED "Agent" like Jeter and the rest of the Yanks/Mets. His stuff is probably sitting in his garage in boxes.

If you find a real gamer, it likely originated from the Cardinals or a Cardinal related charity event (golf tournaments, etc.) Which brings me to why I posted here...

Clubs have "authentics" stores - something that did not happen 20 years ago. I just wish they would make things more affordable and a larger selection of players. Right now, you get Skip Schumaker's bat for $125 or Scott Rolen/Eckstein for $500. All of the current Jerseys are commons...and they go for a minimum of $500 just too much if you ask me. Although they are guaranteed by the organization...which is more than you can say for 99% of the items on the BAY.

Dave

[indyred]

I've only been in the hobby the last year and half. I really like how some companies do it. I feel very confident buying from Meigray. With serial # tags and population reports on hockey jerseys. You can look up and see how many of each jersey a player used in a season and the games each set was used. Makes it really cool for milestone jerseys. You can get a player's special moment jerseys, a record setting moment, 1,000 games played, hat trick, ect. You never see many 100% legit milestone type jerseys in other sports. I like LRM with them having player's under contract and you get a picture LOA with player holding the bat. All the auctions teams have on NFL, MLB, NBA .coms. With LOA and holograms from them. Stuff is legit. Game Exclusives has a nice system and Steiner is solid. Still lots of good stuff out there to find. You can find deals all day long on ebay if your willing to take a chance and really research the stuff. It would be nice if MLB teams had better controls on jerseys. It's why I much prefer game used bats. You can't go and order authentic player bats from Louisville Slugger. Bats show so much more use and jerseys most of the time just look new in MLB. Also, with internet, much easier to look up reference pictures or even get lucky and find a photo match. Half the fun of the hobby to me is looking for possible photo matches and how sweet that is when you do find one. Pre internet, your photo options would be very minimal.

[both-teams-played-hard]

Then, it was a hobby. Now, it is an industry.

These SCD ads were posted some months ago:
http://img80.imageshack.us/img80/8709/scdad3kn9.jpg
http://img80.imageshack.us/img80/6430/scad22lc6.jpg

[bigjimsguitars]

Yes, it is too bad that MLB teams couldn't be more proactive and keep logs of the Jersey's in a manner that would result in better record keeping of the true usage. The idea of a serial number or bar code in a inconspicuous place would be outstanding, especially if it can be tracked or verified online.

Going back to the idea of how much game use modern Jerseys get...

Too much money in the game today and teams like their players looking neat and clean and that means crisp uniforms.

There are still some players who are superstitious and will wear the same Jersey for ever and those are cool to get. Then there are the players who will wear a Jersey only once and that's it.

Then there are the starting pitchers who only wear their jerseys on the day they pitch...

The bottom line is that if it can be documented that it's a real game used item, it's good with me for the most part. The Wells Road Jersey I have from the 2007 Dodgers was only worn once, but it is game used...it's a size 54 and was used by David on his first game against the Met's...

I believe the rest of the season he was wearing size 56's, so for that reason it's cool to me....

If you check out the pictures of him with the Dodgers one will see that the Jersey he wore against the Met's fit him a bit more snug than the rest of the Jerseys he wore with the Dodgers....

Gee, would one call that size or fit matching?

[ahuff]

Here is an example of a minor leaguer using a Molina bat. Sorry for the large photo, but I didn't know how else to show that it was a minor leaguer and still see the barrel of the bat.

[richpick]

It's tough and I understand many peoples concerns about current superstar's stuff. For me I will concentrate on older stuff and non-star current players. With all of the current suspect stuff it will heartbreaking for an avid collector to realize 10 years down the line that some of his stuff is fake. I wish somehow we could all pitch-in to a fund and buy some of the fake stuff and then have a GUU bonfire and destroy it forever. I know that buying it we are supporting the crooks but it seems that apart from this forum many times we are helpless against the crooks. But, back to the question I receive more joy out of a pounded vintage jersey of anyone more then a suspect jersey of a current star.

Richard