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11-18-2005, 02:25 AM
Pujols jersey in Vintage Authentics auction

November 2 2005 at 5:50 PM
http://www.network54.com/PersonalPhotos/1124555026.PNG Jeff Scott (birdbats@charter.net) (Login Birdbats (http://www.network54.com/Profile/Birdbats))

I really appreciate Vintage Authentics for posting MEARS letters and worksheets with each lot in its auctions. It gives collectors more tools to help us do our homework and decide for ourselves.

It's particularly interesting that a MEARS letter might note a photo match with the item. I was looking at the letter for the 2001 Albert Pujols jersey and saw the jersey was photo matched with two shots from Getty. So, I compared the jersey available for auction -- which looked suspicious to me -- to the specific Getty photos noted on the LOA. Here's what I found:

http://webpages.charter.net/jeffscott/54/img1256410Front.jpg
http://webpages.charter.net/jeffscott/54/51479891Front.jpg

Note the placement of the number 5 on the two photos. The 5 on the auction jersey is centered between the "ls" in Cardinals. On the Getty photo, the 5 is centered under the "a" in Cardinals. This is not a match.

http://webpages.charter.net/jeffscott/54/img1256411Back.jpg
http://webpages.charter.net/jeffscott/54/51479889Back.jpg

Look at the relationship/spacing of the letters in PUJOLS and the curve of the nameplate in each photo. The relative angles of the letters "JOL" are particularly distinct. It also appears the nameplate on the auction jersey is closer to the MLB logo than the actual jersey. Again, not a match.

This is just another example of how a buying decision should not be based solely on a LOA. Do your homework and spend wisely.

Jeff
http://www.birdbats.com (http://www.birdbats.com)



AuthorReply

Andrew (info@allstarsplus.com)
(Login allstarsplus (http://www.network54.com/Profile/allstarsplus))
Pujols on VintageAuthentics

November 2 2005, 10:09 PM
Jeff - Great observations on the placement of the 5. I have also noticed the "r" in the Cardinals is closer to the "d" when the jersey is buttoned as the script from the "r" is tucked under when it is buttoned.


http://www.network54.com/PersonalPhotos/1123130816.GIF Joel Alpert (joel@alpert.net)
(Login trsent (http://www.network54.com/Profile/trsent))
Re: Pujols jersey in Vintage Authentics auction

November 3 2005, 5:54 AM
Are you saying that Pujols wore one jersey the entire 162 game season? You are making observations comparing one jersey to one photo. I do not know for a fact, but I would assume later batches of jerseys received may have slight diffrences.

Maybe Getty has more images from that season? If you could photo-match the jersey from each month of the season that may make it more complete.

Oh way the way, I am not the consigner of the jersey in the auction, I just feel that a single photo-match may not be enough for an entire season.


Joel Alpert
TRS Enterprises
email me at joel@alpert.net if you wish to get on our mailing lists
also email me if you are a sports bettor, I may have a great online/phone service for you!


Jay (LDONALDS@COLUMBUS.RR.COM)
(Login pietraynor (http://www.network54.com/Profile/pietraynor))
Take a second look

November 3 2005, 7:41 AM
I have no interest (buyer/seller) in the jersey, purely third-party. Joel, first off, no one said anything about Pujols wearing 1 jersey for 162 games; Secondly, if you note the original post he compares the jersey to the (2) SPECIFIC Getty Images photos listed in the LOA that is included w/ the item. Clearly, based on the positioning of the "5" alone, if they state this is a "photo match" it is not. Also, if you note the McGwire jersey on the top photo, it appears his "5" is positioned where the Pujols auction shirt's is. I'd say that's where all double-digit jersey numbers appeared, though I haven't checked Getty yet to verfiy this. Just seems logical. Thirdly, why would you "assume" later batches of jerseys received may (?) have had slight differences? Lastly, Jeff Scott isn't the one who should have to compare the jersey to any photos, MEARS is, they are the authentictors & get paid for their expertise. I don't know Jeff Scott, but it appears he's trying to help the "game worn community" w/his post & I for one, appreciate his info.


HOWARD WOLF
(Login hblakewolf (http://www.network54.com/Profile/hblakewolf))
PHOTO MATCHING BY MEARS-WHAT EXACTLY IS THE POINT?

November 3 2005, 9:40 AM
Forum readers-in less than one week, the issue about MEARS and photo matching has been discussed here twice. I first raised the issue with the Michael Jordan 1994 White Sox "Game Worn Jersey" that was recently sold with the MEARS letter. The letter specifically made note of 2 photo "matches" on Getty Images. When I went to Getty to match the Jordan jersey, the photos referenced were of other 1994 White Sox players wearing a home jersey-not even Michal Jordan wearing the jersey in question! As I noted, there was no way MEARS could photo match the 1994 home Sox Jordan jersey, as Jordan NEVER WORE it in a game.

When I posted my original question on the forum, I learned that MEARS uses the term "photo match" to direct the potential buyer to photos of either the jersey in question being worn by the player, or the style being worn by another player. According to MEARS, it does not meanthat their reference in the ?LOA is of the exact jersey the letter is being provided for.

In the case of this Pujols, common sense would dictate that the 2 photos MEARS references on Getty are supposed to show Pujols wearing the exact shirt, however, consider my experience with the Jordan jersey.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but in my world, the sky is blue and "Photo Matching" is just that-matching the jersey in question to a photo of the player wearing it-end of story.

As long as collectors depend on Letters of opinion/guesswork/photomatchig to influence their purchases, organizations like MEARS will provide that all-needed "proof" in a "photo matched" LOA that the jersey is simply perfect in all regards.

Remeber, do your own homework, ask questions and don't depend on a worthless third party LOA when buying sports memorabilia.

Howard Wolf
hblakewolf@patmedia.net


http://www.network54.com/PersonalPhotos/1123130816.GIF Joel Alpert (joel@alpert.net)
(Login trsent (http://www.network54.com/Profile/trsent))
Re: Take a second look

November 3 2005, 10:12 AM
Jay, no problem. It appears everytime somoene mentions the other side, they get harassed as I was just stating facts as I saw them. I would think in a public forum or debate that would be the norm.

Joel

Joel Alpert
TRS Enterprises
email me at joel@alpert.net if you wish to get on our mailing lists
also email me if you are a sports bettor, I may have a great online/phone service for you!


Barry Meisel (bmeisel@meigray.com)
(Login BarryMeisel (http://www.network54.com/Profile/BarryMeisel))
MeiGray's Definition of a Photo Match

November 3 2005, 10:23 AM
Hi everybody,

As Howard Wolf has stated now for two threads, the hobby definition for "photo match" should be consistent so we're all on the same page.

MeiGray defines a photo match as a picture OF THE PLAYER WEARING THE EXACT JERSEY. For MeiGray to characterize a photo-match, we must see something unique (a repair, a stain, a stick or scuff mark, or some individual imperfection or unique customization) THAT MATCHES EXACTLY.

Reid Fontaine referred to MeiGray photo-matches of a few Texas Rangers jerseys when he examined our 2002-2003 inventory and saw the photos we had found.

The entire hockey game-worn jersey market has consistently used this definition of a photo-match in its authentications ...

Hope this helps,

Barry Meisel
MeiGray


Reid (rgf2@hotmail.com)
(Login sportscentury (http://www.network54.com/Profile/sportscentury))
For the record...

November 3 2005, 10:34 AM
Forum readers:

As I have stated on this board before, photo-matching is exactly that: MATCHING the item to a photo of the player using the item. This is different than simply providing photographic support or evidence that the features/characteristics of the item in question are consistent with one that has been used.

As we all know, people in this hobby define terms in different ways. That is okay. But it is important to provide people with your definitions if your definitions are different from those that are generally accepted.

Reid

If you would like to receive my list of game used baseball and basketball items, please email me at rgf2@hotmail.com.


HOWARD WOLF
(Login hblakewolf (http://www.network54.com/Profile/hblakewolf))
BARRY-WE ARE ON THE SAME PAGE

November 3 2005, 10:41 AM
Barry-
You nailed this on the head!

You indicate a photo match is just that-matching the jersey to something unique about it in a photo.

The same could be said about matching pinstripes and the NY on Yankees jerseys.

By simply referencing a generic Getty photo on the MEARS letter, should a collector feel comfortable that the jersey in question is legit or even genuine? In my mind, this photo reference proves nothing, unless as you note, it draws attention to something unique or specific.

As long as dealers and collectors are willing to support the so called "authenticators" and allow them to keep the LOA presses running 24/7, these completely worthless pieces of paper will always be in demand.

Any collector can go directly to Getty and direct their own photo search. Why depend on MEARS?

Barry, thanks for the post, and likewise, hats off to you for the great job MeiGray has done with the entire issue of authenticity.

Howard Wolf
hblakewolf@patmedia.net


http://www.network54.com/PersonalPhotos/1124555026.PNG Jeff Scott (birdbats@charter.net)
(Login Birdbats (http://www.network54.com/Profile/Birdbats))
Photo match vs. style match

November 3 2005, 10:40 AM
I received an e-mail from Troy after my post clarifying MEARS' uses of the term "photo match." Here's what he wrote:

"Regarding your recent post on game used forum, we use the term photo match to mean 'style match.' We want to make sure that the font, size, colors, etc of a jersey match what was issued to the player. In most instances, we can only verify style. We may use a photo of a different player to check style. In rare instances, we do get a 'fingerprint' exact photo match. In those cases, the facts of the exact match will be spelled out. I am aware that the term 'photo match' has caused confusion to some collectors. I implimented the step to our worksheet in order to insure that each and every item is photo style checked. The worksheets we used were bulk printed. When the original supply is exhausted, new changes and a change from 'photo match' to 'photo style matched' will appear on the new updated version. Many other additions to the worksheet are also scheduled to help collectors better understand the steps we use to authenticate."

I explained to Troy that I didn't expect an exact photo match with a white jersey -- I'd think that's next to impossible. My issue was with the placement of the number on the front, the position and shape of the nameplate on the back, and the style and spacing of the lettering in PUJOLS on that plate. So, regardless of the terms "photo match" or "style match," we still are talking about a jersey that, I feel, just doesn't look right.

I researched Getty last night to look at photos of all Cardinals players in 2001 that wore a single digit -- Renteria, Vina, Pujols and Drew. In every photo where the number on the front was clearly visible, none was positioned nearly as far to the right as the Pujols jersey in question. I own only one jersey from that season, a post 9/11 Edgar Renteria, and the "3" is centered under the "a" (actually, even a bit left of that). I shared this observation with Troy, who responded: "I still stand behind our grade of the A5, as it meets our definition. But, I see your point in that some numbering placements can be more desirable than others. This is where the collector decides on what criteria is best suited for his collection."

I appreciate everything MEARS does for our hobby and Troy has been kind in acknowledging my efforts to share information with MEARS. We're having a rational exchange in the spirit of bringing more information into the hobby for everyone to use. I just wanted to raise the point that this particular jersey doesn't look consistent with other Cardinals jerseys I've seen -- it's not a photo match nor, in my opinion, a style match. Perhaps it is legit. Maybe the good folks at Levy's (who letter jerseys for the Cardinals) just placed the number too far to the right on this one. But, it looks different enough from other Cardinals jerseys to at least raise the issue and question whether more research is warranted.

Jeff
http://www.birdbats.com (http://www.birdbats.com)


http://www.network54.com/PersonalPhotos/1124389793.JPG both-teams-played-hard
(Login both-teams-played-hard (http://www.network54.com/Profile/both-teams-played-hard))
"Photo-reference"

November 3 2005, 12:07 PM
The term "photo-match" is abused. If it is not obviously the SAME jersey in the photo...."photo-reference" may be better.

Yes, Howard-the sky is blue! I have it "photo-matched" with years of outdoor family photos...


Barry Meisel (bmeisel@meigray.com)
(Login BarryMeisel (http://www.network54.com/Profile/BarryMeisel))
Distorting a Definition

November 3 2005, 12:50 PM
Thanks for the kind words, Howard.

MeiGray believes using the term "photo match" for a style match does not in any way serve the collector, and is a poor way to authenticate jerseys.

We say this because the term photo match has been used for years by dealers and collectors to indicate an exact match of the jersey being sold or authenticated, not a representation of style.

Regards,

Barry



rudy (petrucious2000@yahoo.com)
(Login kingjammy (http://www.network54.com/Profile/kingjammy))
perhaps these may help

November 3 2005, 1:46 PM

I took the liberty of creating some images which I think show the problems with the auction jersey. From my perspective, it's not even so much that it's not an exact 'photo match', it's not even a style match. If it is a style match, it's a relatively poor one. See the images to see what I mean. The jersey has issues beyond simply the placement of the "5". The "5" on the jersey looks like it may even be a slightly different font. See #3 on the first 2 images. As well, the placement of the "5" on the auction jersey is not even where it would be on a 2-number jersey. For the 2001 home Cards jerseys, in a 2-number placement, the second number extends way past the "s" in Cardinals. I've circled what I think the issues are. As well, I've superimposed an extra "5" on the auction jersey to show that it couldn't even fit a second number, thus it's not even sewn right for a 2 number placement. I've also included another 2001 Getty Image of a Pujols home jersey. It seems that on the front, Pujols' jerseys always have the number "5" beginning in the middle of the "N" in Cardinals.
I've made all of the jerseys close to the same size so that the differences can be seen in the same proportion.

http://img498.imageshack.us/img498/6673/card12th.jpg (http://imageshack.us/)

http://img468.imageshack.us/img468/7125/card21kn.jpg (http://imageshack.us/)

http://img46.imageshack.us/img46/2094/card35rd.jpg (http://imageshack.us/)

http://img247.imageshack.us/img247/121/cards43xx.jpg (http://imageshack.us/)



Rudy.



HOWARD WOLF
(Login hblakewolf (http://www.network54.com/Profile/hblakewolf))
TALK ABOUT "DOING YOUR HOMEWORK"!!!!!

November 3 2005, 1:58 PM
Rudy-
I always say, "Do your homework before buying a jersey". HOLY COW!!!! This is by far some of the finest research I have ever seen, and proves my point once again-you can wipe your rear with the LOA's.

Troy/Dave (MEARS), can you please comment on this simply AMAZING post?

Rudy-hats off to you.

Thanks.
Howard Wolf
hblakewolf@patmedia.net


http://www.network54.com/PersonalPhotos/1124389793.JPG both-teams-played-hard (b-t-p-h@earthlink.net)
(Login both-teams-played-hard (http://www.network54.com/Profile/both-teams-played-hard))
Re: TALK ABOUT "DOING YOUR HOMEWORK"!!!!!

November 3 2005, 2:04 PM
Great Job, Rudy!
This proves this isn't a true "photo-match". However, it doesn't prove if Pujols wore the jersey or not. The "5" fonts are different...did St. Louis use different number fonts WITHIN the same season?


Greg (otismalibu@yahoo.com)
(Login otismalibu (http://www.network54.com/Profile/otismalibu))
Re: Homework

November 3 2005, 2:41 PM
So I guess the letter for this one might be questionable as well?

http://sportspickle.com/features/volume1/11132001-pujols.jpg


rudy (petrucious2000@yahoo.com)
(Login kingjammy (http://www.network54.com/Profile/kingjammy))
one more problem

November 3 2005, 2:46 PM
one more issue and i think this is probably the biggest. i was looking at the "5" on the auction jersey and wondering how it covered so much area. that is, how it managed to span
such a width compared to the getty pujols jersey which i re-sized so they'd be in the same proportion. at first i thought "oh oh. my re-sizing was wrong. i didn't make them exact enough". but after looking closer, i concluded my re-sizing was spot on and the propotions are exact. the verdict: the number "5" on the auction jersey is not the same size as it "should be" according to getty images. that is, not only is the wrong font, it's the wrong size font. the "5" on the pujols jersey is far larger than the front-number font used by the cardinals in 2001. i took the auction jersey and superimposed getty image jerseys onto it. i resized both jerseys so they'd be in proper proportion to the auction jersey. you can verify this because the superimposed "inals" is the exact same size as the auction jersey's "inals" so the "cardinals" font and size is perfect on all jerseys. they all match. but if you look at the numbers from all 3 jerseys, the "5" on the auction jersey is MUCH larger than the other 2 numbers from the getty image jerseys. almost like a "which of these doesn't belong". the sizes from the 2 getty images match perfectly together and indicate how large the numbers should look on the auction jersey.

http://img316.imageshack.us/img316/3738/card59ms.jpg (http://imageshack.us/)


Rudy.


Christopher Cavalier (chris_cavalier@gameuseduniverse.com)
(Login GameUsedUniverse (http://www.network54.com/Profile/GameUsedUniverse))
What are the next steps?

November 7 2005, 8:53 PM
First of all, I have to say this thread was tremendously enlightening and I think everyone who participated deserves some thanks from all of us who benefitted from the information shared. In particular, thanks to Rudy for taking the time to help us understand the issues better and thanks to Jeff for sharing your thoughts in such a balanced, professional manner.

With that being said, I also think there a few items that need to be addressed coming out of this thread. In doing so, I first would like to repost Troy's response to Jeff regarding what MEARS claims to mean by "photo match". Here is what Troy wrote in a letter to Jeff:

"Regarding your recent post on game used forum, we use the term photo match to mean 'style match.' We want to make sure that the font, size, colors, etc of a jersey match what was issued to the player. In most instances, we can only verify style. We may use a photo of a different player to check style. In rare instances, we do get a 'fingerprint' exact photo match. In those cases, the facts of the exact match will be spelled out. I am aware that the term 'photo match' has caused confusion to some collectors. I implimented the step to our worksheet in order to insure that each and every item is photo style checked. The worksheets we used were bulk printed. When the original supply is exhausted, new changes and a change from 'photo match' to 'photo style matched' will appear on the new updated version. Many other additions to the worksheet are also scheduled to help collectors better understand the steps we use to authenticate."

While I have no intention of arguing MEARS' definition, I have to agree with Barry Meisel in that "the term photo match has been used for years by dealers and collectors to indicate an exact match of the jersey being sold or authenticated, not a representation of style." I think if you polled avid collectors they would agree with Barry as well. Empirically, an agreement to Barry's statement can also be seen in the fact that items that truly have a "photo match" have been known to realize massive premiums versus their conventional counterparts when sold in auction. I don't think bidders would be willing to pay huge premiums for an item that was simply "style matched".

If we agree the industry has a fairly clear interpretation of the term "photo match", then I am a bit concerned with Troy's statement that "The worksheets we used were bulk printed. When the original supply is exhausted, new changes and a change from 'photo match' to 'photo style matched' will appear on the new updated version." The reason I say this is that if buyers are thinking there is an exact match when they see "photo match" on a worksheet then it is not serving the collecting community to continue using worksheets that will likely be misinterpreted by potential buyers. As such, I would like to ask MEARS to make this change immediately. If there is a cost issue with printing new worksheets I will be happy to donate the money to make sure the current worksheets are taken out of circulation. If these worksheets have "caused confusion to some collectors" then they really need to be changed immediately.

I hope this issue is resolved quickly and I will be happy to help in whatever way necessary to make sure the collecting community is not "confused" in their purchase decisions.

Sincerely,
Christopher Cavalier
CEO - Game Used Universe
http://www.gameuseduniverse.com (http://www.gameuseduniverse.com)



Christopher Cavalier (chris_cavalier@gameuseduniverse.com)
(Login GameUsedUniverse (http://www.network54.com/Profile/GameUsedUniverse))
Re: What are the next steps?

November 9 2005, 3:04 PM
While I have had some issues with MEARS regarding the authentication side of their business, I have always felt comfortable dealing with Dave Grob. As such, I want to thank Dave for handling this situation expeditiously and in a professional manner. Here is a follow-up from Dave Grob:

"One of the polices I asked be put in place for evaluations done by MEARS is a requirement that jerseys be checked against an image or image file to confirm correctness in style for things like numbering, lettering, the presence of patches etc. The other piece of this was that this reference be recorded on the worksheet for the item. I have long believed that the value of a good Letter of Opinion and work sheet are designed to one thing; that being to permit the person buying the item to see what we have seen for themselves and make an informed purchase decision.

To that end, the work sheets initially printed up had this field placed on them with the heading of Photo Match. Unfortunately this has led many to infer that what MEARS was saying is that our position was that the jersey in the images was the same one we where evaluating. That was never and is not the intent behind this part of the process and I accept responsibility for not being clear with our operational staff about how this should be couched in terms of language. The worksheets being used will have the phrase “Style Matched” stamped over the phase Photo Match until such time as we can re-order those sheets.

In those instances where MEARS feels we have been able to identify a jersey we have been asked to offer an opinion on as the same one in a photographic reference it will be stated as such. As the Policy Director, I am responsible for ensuing that a proper framework exists to support both the work our folks do on site as well as the informational needs of the collector. This requirement was born out of concerns from collectors about our responsibility for due diligence and their desire "to be able to see it for themselves."

Dave Grob
Policy Director
MEARS"

Sincerely,
Christopher Cavalier
CEO - Game Used Universe
http://www.gameuseduniverse.com (http://www.gameuseduniverse.com)


rudy (petrucious2000@yahoo.com)
(Login kingjammy (http://www.network54.com/Profile/kingjammy))
still not a 'style match'

November 9 2005, 3:26 PM

changing the term from 'photo match' to 'style match' is a helpful step forward for the future. it does nothing however to address the discrepancies with this specific pujols jersey. if the front number on this specific jersey is in a different font, different size, and completely different placement than what's been shown to have been worn by the cardinals in 2001, how is that even a 'style match'?


Rudy.


Reid (rgf2@hotmail.com)
(Login sportscentury (http://www.network54.com/Profile/sportscentury))
Re: What are the next steps?

November 9 2005, 5:04 PM
Rudy's point not withstanding (as it is a valid point), I do think the term "style match" is more accurate and more helpful to collectors. Thanks for the update, Chris, and thanks to Dave Grob for his continued diligence.

Reid

If you would like to receive my list of game used baseball and basketball items, please email me at rgf2@hotmail.com.


Christopher Cavalier (chris_cavalier@gameuseduniverse.com)
(Login GameUsedUniverse (http://www.network54.com/Profile/GameUsedUniverse))
Re: What are the next steps?

November 9 2005, 10:43 PM
Hello Rudy-

Let me first apologize if my earlier message suggested Dave's note addressed all the issues from this thread. That was not my intention and I am sorry if it came across that way.

In fact, if I understand everything that has been discussed here, there are at least 3 issues (maybe more) that need resolution. The ones I see are:

1) In general, MEARS' use of the term "photo match" on their worksheets when they actually mean "style matched" (I think this is the issue Dave Grob is trying to address going forward as per the post above);

2) The fact that this particular jersey (the Pujols) has a "photo match" box checked on the worksheet when we have established this is not the case. I think this needs to be cleared up for anyone considering bidding on this item (I don't know if that has been done yet);

3) The question as to whether or not this Pujols jersey can even be said to be "style matched" based on the research conducted by Rudy and Jeff.

While I think the first question will apparently be resolved, I guess we will have to wait to hear from MEARS regarding questions 2 and 3 above.

Once again Rudy, I apologize if my post in any way implied your questions had been addressed. You and Jeff have clearly raised issues that deserve to be answered.

Sincerely,
Christopher Cavalier
CEO - Game Used Universe
http://www.gameuseduniverse.com (http://www.gameuseduniverse.com/)


dave (djob0001@yahoo.com)
(Login CollectGU (http://www.network54.com/Profile/CollectGU))
Has anyone contacted

November 16 2005, 9:32 AM
MEARS regarding this jersey. Has someone brought the thread on this message board to their attention?

apujols04
11-22-2005, 12:10 AM
The public spoke....this item went for less than half of the last 2001 pujols jersey in a vintage auction.

ChrisCavalier
11-22-2005, 11:15 AM
Unfortunately, the person who bought the jersey probably wasn't even aware of the issues raised on this forum. :(

Sincerely,
Christopher Cavalier
CEO - Game Used Universe