PDA

View Full Version : Steroids--YOUR cost! $$$



byergo
02-15-2006, 05:11 PM
How much money do you estimate it has cost YOU personally to hold onto the game used memorabilia of outed steroid cheaters: Palimero, Mcgwire, Bonds, Sosa, Canseco, etc...? How much loss of market value have you had to bear?

What do you expect moving forward on this front?

bigtime59
02-15-2006, 08:42 PM
Nothing...couldn't afford their stuff to begin with.

sylbry
02-15-2006, 08:53 PM
This isn't game used but I had a copy of the speeding ticket Jose Canseco got in his Porsche in 1989 while going double the speed limit with no license. I bought it for $7 and sold it when his book came out for $25.

With that said I think the steriod scandal has helped the value of his stuff. I bought a couple of his bats pre scandal and prices have jumped since. I think this has more to do with him being back in the spotlight.

Palmeiro on the other hand was flying high just getting his 3,000 hit and then took a hard fall. I have been looking to buy one of his bats simply because they have dropped in price.

yanks12025
02-15-2006, 09:12 PM
HI
Steroids may help the price go up. But think whats its doing to baseball. In the 2006 season barry bonds is going to pass babe ruth and maybe in two years or so pass hank aaron records now thats messed up because those guys tryed. Bonds and with all the other people that took steriods should be kicked out of baseball like pete rose and never be let in the hall of fame. And just for yopu guys to know Pete rose should be in the hall.

yanks12025
02-15-2006, 09:15 PM
Hi
Steriods may help the price of things go up. But look at what steriods is doing to baseball now. I think Barry bonds and all the other people that took them should be kicked out of baseball and cant go in the hall of fame. Babe ruth and hank aaron tryed to get there home runs and now Barry bonds had to come along and cheat to catch up to them. This is kinda like the Pete rose thing but Pete should be in the hall.

trsent
02-16-2006, 06:22 AM
Hi
Steriods may help the price of things go up. But look at what steriods is doing to baseball now. I think Barry bonds and all the other people that took them should be kicked out of baseball and cant go in the hall of fame. Babe ruth and hank aaron tryed to get there home runs and now Barry bonds had to come along and cheat to catch up to them. This is kinda like the Pete rose thing but Pete should be in the hall.

Kicked out of baseball?

Common, technically speaking they didn't violate the rules of baseball taking Steroids until just last season. Now, we have debated this before, but you want to show me proof that Barry Bonds has taken Steroids?

I don't believe he has admitted to it or has ever failed a test for it, has he?

This is still the United States of America, right? Innocent until proven guilty, right? So Palmiero should fry in hell for what happened to him?

He was punished by the rules set at the time, let's get over it already - They are cleaning up the game, but Pete Rose broke a rule and it was proven he committed the crime and he was punished according to the rules of baseball.

As a friend of mine, Pete is a great guy and I hope one day Baseball puts him in The Hall. Not only so he can be there where his on-field performance can be in the spotlight, but also because once he gets in, Shoeless Joe Jackson should be a shoe-in as he deserves to be in The Hall.

byergo
02-16-2006, 10:03 AM
Joel,
The mountain of evidence surrounding Barry Bonds steriod use is so overwhelming that is is inconceivable to think there is any less than 100% certainty that he was a user.

trsent
02-16-2006, 12:30 PM
The mountain of evidence surrounding Barry Bonds steriod use is so overwhelming that is is inconceivable to think there is any less than 100% certainty that he was a user.

Really, did he fail a test or get convicted in a court of law?

Did you try him yourself and determine his guilt so he should now have all his records removed from Baseball and The Hall is out of the questions?

Seriously, what did he do against the rules of Baseball that was illegal even if guilt is found?

byergo
02-16-2006, 12:59 PM
You may be the only person left in America who thinks Bonds isn't a steroid user. Minimially he has cheated the history of the game with his artificially inflated stats, and this drug use is illegal in the United States, even if not prohibited by MLB during the timeframe.

Should his stats be removed from the record book, and should he be denied entrance to the HOF? I'd give both of those strong consideration. I think HOF voters will ponder this for a long time, and will for sure not give 1st ballot entrance to the "known" cheaters. And yes I understand that we don't have drug convictions in a court of law, and no I don't think they are necessary for us all to understand the dynamics of what has occurred in baseball for the past 20 years.

trsent
02-16-2006, 01:12 PM
You may be the only person left in America who thinks Bonds isn't a steroid user. Minimially he has cheated the history of the game with his artificially inflated stats, and this drug use is illegal in the United States, even if not prohibited by MLB during the timeframe.

Should his stats be removed from the record book, and should he be denied entrance to the HOF? I'd give both of those strong consideration. I think HOF voters will ponder this for a long time, and will for sure not give 1st ballot entrance to the "known" cheaters. And yes I understand that we don't have drug convictions in a court of law, and no I don't think they are necessary for us all to understand the dynamics of what has occurred in baseball for the past 20 years.

So your point is that if there is any evidence that someone took a drug that was not illegal under the rules of their sport, they should have their records banished and they should not be part of the history of the game?

You should move to Cuba with your comments.

Your comments about me being the only person left in America who thinks Bonds didn't use Steroids is ridiculous. I do not know or care if he used them, because if he did, he wasn't breaking the rules of his sport at the time. Funny thing is 90% or so of the American population doesn't know or care about this discussion, so I would assume most of America doesn't care or for that matter think Bonds took Steroids.

Really, move to Cuba and live in a world where there are no freedoms to have a trial by jury or judge. You can set your own laws and execute people because of what you have read and seen in the press.

Barry Bonds didn't break any rules of his sport if he did in fact use Steroids - That is all I care about in this discussion.

People take sports history too seriously. It is a game, should Hulk Hogan's record as a 14 time World Champion be banished because it appears he may have used Steroids? Ok, don't answer, I know you feel he is guilty and doesn't even deserve a trial.

You know something funny, my attorney doesn't think OJ did it - I swear! He even attended every day of the criminal trial!

byergo
02-16-2006, 01:30 PM
I'm not moving to Cuba. Bonds is guilty of cheating. WWF is entertainment (low quality entertainment for low IQ fans) and not a sport, and yes they abuse roids like crazy. The American public has heard of the steroids in baseball scandal. People take sports and sports history very seriously, because it is important to us. OJ did it.

trsent
02-16-2006, 01:36 PM
Wait! Wait! Wait!

A jury of OUR peers in criminal court said OJ was innocent of murder.

Maybe my attorney is right after all.

trsent
02-16-2006, 01:47 PM
I'm not moving to Cuba. Bonds is guilty of cheating. WWF is entertainment (low quality entertainment for low IQ fans) and not a sport, and yes they abuse roids like crazy. The American public has heard of the steroids in baseball scandal. People take sports and sports history very seriously, because it is important to us. OJ did it.

You know, I should comment point by point above:

- You should move to Cuba, there you can join the government that doesn't have the freedoms that you appreciate in this county every day.

- Bonds has never been proven to cheat. Even if he used the substance that you claim makes him a cheater, it wasn't against the rules of his sport at the time. Ex post facto is a major part of our legal system. Look it up and learn.

- WWF stands for World Wildlife Fund. What is your issue bashing them? A court of law determined that WWF could only be used by this group, so I have no idea what you are talking about bashing those that help endangered animals. You should be ashamed of yourself! I bet there is very little Steroid abuse in The World Wildlife Fund, if any at all.

- The American public has not heard about the Baseball Steroid ordeal. I would venture 20 - 30% of the public has detailed knowledge of this ordeal. I would also guess around 10% of the total population cares. Do you really think every person in this country cares about your cherished sport? I know the answer, it is no. I love the history it brings, but if you wish to compare baseball stats or stats of something that means something to our history as a country, you know where I stand.

- and finally, once again - A criminal jury of your peers (yes, US Citizens) deemed OJ was innocent of murder. He was freed from jail and I believe he has not served since. This is the criminal system offered in our country, if you don't like it, you know the saying.

- I should also mention, I do not take your comments as a personal attack against me. Debate is great, just understand, we may not agree but we have the freedom to discuss. :)

yanks12025
02-16-2006, 02:42 PM
Any one that does take or did should be kicked out of baseball because they cheated. They have to cheat to be the best. If this goes on then america wont have good sports any more.

trsent
02-16-2006, 02:56 PM
Any one that does take or did should be kicked out of baseball because they cheated. They have to cheat to be the best. If this goes on then america wont have good sports any more.

How did anyone cheat?

Using Steroids was not illegal by the rules of baseball.

Wagering on baseball was illegal by the rules of baseball.

Now it is illegal to use Steroids by the rules of baseball. For over 125 years it was not illegal - SO PER EX POST FACTO WHAT CRIME MAY HAVE BEEN COMMITTED?

If the glove does not fit, you must acquit.

What is really funny is that Barry Bonds has not even been convicted in a court of law set by our peers that he did anything illegal - So get over it.

He will be a first ballot Hall-of-Fame Member, and he may even break Hank Aaron's All-Time Home Run record, and there will not be an asterisk next to his name, no matter how much you whine about it on GUU or anywhere else for that matter.

HE DIDN'T BREAK ANY RULES OF THE GAME, WHICH HAS IT'S OWN RULEBOOK.

suave1477
02-16-2006, 02:57 PM
You know I have to stick my 2 cents in.

I personally beleive Roger Maris should keep the Home Run Record untill someone who hasn't taken steroids beats it. Just my opinion. I will not mention names but for anyone who has broken Roger Maris's record up until now should have an asteric placed next to there record.

trsent
02-16-2006, 02:59 PM
I personally beleive Roger Maris should keep the Home Run Record untill someone who hasn't taken steroids beats it. Just my opinion. I will not mention names but for anyone who has broken Roger Maris's record up until now should have an asteric placed next to there record.

Thanks for the laugh, I really needed one.

I remember a great article by Rick Tellander called, "The Record That Almost Broke Him" about how baseball mentally ruined Roger Maris because of that asterisk.

Geez, a season is a season was later deemed the correct result and the asterisk was removed.

suave1477
02-16-2006, 03:04 PM
Hello Trsent hope you got the info on strawberry.

As far as the homerun record Roger should have never gottten the asteric. I mean when babe ruth broke the record he did it in more games then the guy who set it before him. So if that was the case there should have been an asteric next to ruth's record right?

cjosefy
02-16-2006, 03:40 PM
How did anyone cheat?

Using Steroids was not illegal by the rules of baseball.

Wagering on baseball was illegal by the rules of baseball.

Now it is illegal to use Steroids by the rules of baseball. For over 125 years it was not illegal - SO PER EX POST FACTO WHAT CRIME MAY HAVE BEEN COMMITTED?

<snip>

HE DIDN'T BREAK ANY RULES OF THE GAME, WHICH HAS IT'S OWN RULEBOOK.

Your reasoning is ridiculous. Just because steroid use wasn't explicitly prohibited doesn't mean that it is then perfectly reasonable to have used them, or that those who did use them (including Barry Bonds, who admitted use in grand jury testimony) should be free from blame.

Yes, the constitution prohibits ex post facto laws, but as you pointed out, this is the game of baseball which has its own rule book, so we can assume that in applying blame retroactively to players, we as fans and the entity of Major League Baseball do not need to follow that document.

Maybe we should instead look at the philosophy of common sense. In baseball terms, doctoring the ball or juicing the bat has been against the rules for decades, but juicing yourself is ok? In the wider realm of sports, the Olympics have banned steroids for a long time, but using them in other athletic arenas is ok?

I hope you really don't subscribe to the idea that doing something that is widely considered by most thinking individuals to be morally, ethically, and physically wrong is nevertheless perfectly fine because a tiny booklet of baseball rules didn't explicitly tell them no.

Quit hiding behind technicalities, and condemn these men for doing something that was wrong. I don't care about the rule book, the record book, or the price of a Raffy bat, but at least I can say that what they did was wrong and that it severely damaged baseball.

Against the rules? No. Against the spirit of the game (and this is the more important question). Yes

earlywynnfan
02-16-2006, 03:48 PM
Since nobody else brought this up, i will:

When do we kick Gaylord Perry out of the game and the HOF? And who was that Astro that doctored the ball, Mike Scott?

Do we erase the stats for Sosa and Belle and all the other corked bat guys, too?

And PS: Joe Jackson was guilty, he took the money!! Why doesn't anyone ever cry about the 3rd baseman, what was his name, Weaver? The one who is still banned because he didn't tattletale on his teammates, but was never involved in the fix?

Ken

yanks12025
02-16-2006, 03:49 PM
Ok Your right Roger maris did have 8 more days then babe ruth. So then barry bonds records should be taken away because he had more time then babe ruth.

trsent
02-16-2006, 03:56 PM
When do we kick Gaylord Perry out of the game and the HOF? And who was that Astro that doctored the ball, Mike Scott?

Do we erase the stats for Sosa and Belle and all the other corked bat guys, too?

And PS: Joe Jackson was guilty, he took the money!! Why doesn't anyone ever cry about the 3rd baseman, what was his name, Weaver? The one who is still banned because he didn't tattletale on his teammates, but was never involved in the fix?


Yup, Buck Weaver really got the shaft.

Thanks for your comments, they are less biased than the comments posted above yours.

People want to live in the USA but they want to dictate the law as it was in 1980s Russia. Nice double standards.

trsent
02-16-2006, 03:58 PM
Ok Your right Roger maris did have 8 more days then babe ruth. So then barry bonds records should be taken away because he had more time then babe ruth.

Young man, since you told us that you are young and that you and your father go to auctions to buy memorabilia together, maybe you should consider this:

Maybe you and your father should post on this forum together because it appears you post all by yourself.

bigtime59
02-16-2006, 04:36 PM
Joel:
Our justice system, like any other system put together by humans is imperfect. Every day, innocent people are convicted, and guilty people go free.
Remember the "s**t sandwich" metaphor: the more bread you have, the less s**t you have to eat!
One day during the OJ fiasco, I was asked if I thought the LAPD had planted evidence while searching OJ's house. I replied: "yes, and I believe he's guilty, too." The cops were trying not to eat the sandwich.
(Dragging us somewhat back on topic) guys who juice to "hit their way off the island" or to stay competitive at the highest levels of the sport, are trying not to eat the sandwich.
In the end, however...we all eat the sandwich!

yanks12025
02-16-2006, 06:03 PM
You dont have to talk to me like im a retard. We all have different opinion's on things in life.

trsent
02-16-2006, 06:44 PM
You dont have to talk to me like im a retard. We all have different opinion's on things in life.

Like I said, as a child posting on an adult forum, if you go to auctions with your father, your father should also take the time to teach you to post like an adult.

I have no problem with your views.

Fraudfinder!!
02-16-2006, 07:32 PM
This is still the United States of America, right? Innocent until proven guilty, right? So Palmiero should fry in hell for what happened to him?


Joel,
Innocent until proven guilty is a legal requirment after one has been charged, indicted, etc and is going through the United States criminal justice system. The judge or jury MUST presume an accused as innocent until proven guilty. They are the only ones that must adhere to this requirment. The general public has every right to prejudge a person's guilt or innocence on any subject, right or wrong. One need not be convicted of any crime for a citizen to speak out on their opinion on any case. There is no presumption of innocence on anyone not charged with a crime, and the only people that are bound by that presumption once they are chaged is the jurist(s).

trsent
02-16-2006, 08:35 PM
Innocent until proven guilty is a legal requirment after one has been charged, indicted, etc and is going through the United States criminal justice system. The judge or jury MUST presume an accused as innocent until proven guilty. They are the only ones that must adhere to this requirment. The general public has every right to prejudge a person's guilt or innocence on any subject, right or wrong. One need not be convicted of any crime for a citizen to speak out on their opinion on any case. There is no presumption of innocence on anyone not charged with a crime, and the only people that are bound by that presumption once they are chaged is the jurist(s).

So, Bonds should not be allowed to play baseball again and he should not be in the hall because a few people state that?

I don't mind a debate, but this isn't a court so people are innocent until proven guilty by our court system.

What has been proven against Bonds that he should be fried?

sylbry
02-16-2006, 08:53 PM
Damn, I was really hoping this thread would stay on track. I was curious to hear people's observations on McGwire, Sosa, and Giambi's game equipment values. Oh well.

On the steriod issue, I believe they have been illegal in the United States without a doctor's perscription since 1991. Last time I checked baseball's rules didn't trump the laws of the USA. I don't think baseball has a rule that states you can't murder someone. You get where I am going with this.

So maybe the can't be kicked out of baseball for breaking a yet to exist baseball rule but that argument isn't going to prevent them from going to jail if it gets to that point (which it most likely won't.)

byergo
02-16-2006, 09:05 PM
Joel,
Will you be convinced that more than just a few people are absolutely certain that Bonds was a roid'er when he fails to get voted into the HOF?

I'll go on record now predicting that all the players I've mentioned thus far (Bonds/Mcgwire/Palmeiro/Canseco) will not get 1st ballot entry in the HOF at a minimum, and it is possibly they may never get in. This despite the inarguable fact that Bonds/Mcgwire/Palmeiro all have "no-brainer" 1st ballot career stats.

byergo
02-16-2006, 09:07 PM
Forgot Sosa (with his steroids AND corked bat) who will also for sure not get 1st ballot HOF vote.

nate
02-17-2006, 01:23 AM
Yes, steroids have been illegal in the U.S. without doctors approval. But legal "Precursors" have been available over the counter for some time. Ephedra was everywhere just a few years ago as a diet pill. Now it's taken off the market because of the stress it causes on the body with potential heart failure. Athletes walk into health food stores all the time looking for something to help them with their performance on the field. The problem is the FDA has not approved all supplements on the market. One athlete tells another athlete that this over the counter product works for them. Perfectly legal over the counter product. He uses it and it helps him recover faster from workouts. The problem is how do you police something that is unregulated by the FDA. Most companies that make the supplements and protein shakes use the same mixer for different products. How many athletes pre-1990 were using greenies? How many were taking supplements from this and other coutries? We can all speculate on what they took whether legal or illegal. I think the big debate for the HOF will be....how many of them broke the rules?

Take care,

Nate

2000mvpfan
02-17-2006, 02:17 AM
Hey Guys-
Speaking from my own experience:I collect Giambi game-used stuff,and I'll tell you what,he seems to be forgiven since winning Comeback of the Year.Between December '04 and July '05 (when he was heating up) there was practically ZERO interest in him,and I got some great items for peanuts including a rookie year green A's alternate jersey with paperwork from the A's for about $360,and a signed pair of game-used cleats with a signed,game-used '00 bat (with ASI coa's) for $530 TOGETHER!Fast forward to late '05 'till the present,and on e-bay and other auction sites,bats are back in the $300-$400 range (with some Yankee ones going for even more) and I even saw an '01 A's signed home jersey going for $1400 on one website!This is to say nothing of Steiner,who during the controversy laid low on Giambi,but now has (take your pick...) home,away,and bp jerseys and game-used hats that you can own for just $2,000 each! Apparently,somebody's buying 'em,cause a couple were sold out.Anyway,even if they were worth nothing I'd keep 'em cause I like the guy,but I 'd say (in his case at least) that he's back on the rise in the hobby again.....at least for now.

..........by the way,still looking for a single or pair of his g/u batting gloves-just can't find the damn things!:mad:

-Joe