NFL Auctions Pricing Reaching Unreasonable Levels?

[mvandor]

In the career thread I didn't see so many independently wealthy guys. Nevertheless, items on NFL Auctions I have an interest in (Chargers) are going crazy IMHO, and I know some collectors here have several LT game worn jerseys from NFL Auctions.

With a week to go the following prices are already in play:

LT GU Alternate Jersey: $4,900
LT GU Throwback Helmet: $3,500
Gates GU Home Jersey: $3,100

Is this where prices have been on these types of items? Am I going to be limited to collecting GU gloves, pants and shoes unless I hit the lottery? :confused:

[Jags Fan Dan]

In my opinion, NFL auctions prices have always been way, way inflated on everything. I have never even been able to think about buying anything off of there. When you see guys like John Beck's jersey sell for over 4k (it may have been over 5k, I can't remember!), that's when I call it quits there!

[DRILLINDK]

I agree, the average Joe would never be able to afford items at these current price levels. I've suspected for a long time, that auction houses and even people affiliated with the player a bidding. IMO

[mvandor]

I agree, the average Joe would never be able to afford items at these current price levels. I've suspected for a long time, that auction houses and even people affiliated with the player a bidding. IMO
Really curious as to whether these prices are in line with recent prices for similar items or not. Seems high to me.

[dafivehole]

You are guys are right... if the winners ever tried to move these items on the secondary market, they'll be in for a big surprise. Over spending because you "Know it's real" isn't worth that much... I think a lot of these buyers are doctors and lawyers that have more money than sense and don't really know the items actual "value." The market will eventually bottom out and these items will start to be more realistic... it's just that the original buyers will lose a ton of money on their initial investments. Patience my friends...:o

Roger

[lund6771]

Roger...

there are a lot of people that buy stuff for collecting, not purely for investment...these people couldn't really care less if the jersey that was purchased for $5,000 could only be re-sold for $3,000.00 on the secondary market today...

10 years from now, if the player has a solid career, and the original purchaser is bored with the item, I would be very suprised if they wouldn't be making up to 50% on their original purchase

[scottanservitz]

I too have been in awe of some of the prices these jerseys are getting. I also totally agree with the members here that if these ever see the market again that the buyers are going to be in for a big shock at what the jerseys will bring. Again, if the bidders are not into reselling then it is no big deal to them. For the money that these buyers are spending they could very well purchase Hall of Fame jerseys that will hold their value much better in the long run. People really need to do their homework before spending that kind of money. But to each his own I guess.
Scott

[DRILLINDK]

I agree with everyone's thoughts. Although, I think that the individuals bidding are not concerned with the monetary value of these auction items. I believe these bidders are either wealthy individuals (where spending this kind of cash is not a financial concern) OR auction houses/associates. In a way it's very disappointing, for me, the average individual. Spending this kind of cash on one of these auction items would rival an entire year of my GU budget. Is this what it has come to? At these rates, I can look forward to buying LT's right sock for $800! This is sad, and I'm waiting for the day it carries over to MLB auctions and NBA auctions alike. :confused: Once again, the little man loses.

[DRILLINDK]

Sorry, I'll get off my soap box now.

[David]

If the auctions are for charity, that might account for some of the higher pricing. In charity auctions, people who can afford it often over bid as it's a donation.

[gingi79]

Across the board, every league's auction sells items at a grossly inflated amount.

NHL.com has sold Hockey Fights Cancer, Garth Brooks Patched and Katrina patched jerseys for a tidy amount above normal MeiGray prices for these one game wonders. (Granted there is a partial tax deduction)

NFL.com has sold jerseys at prices that even rich people would scoff at. John Beck is a hallucination right now. Dan Marino jerseys have sold for less than his NFL.com auction. I hope the kid is the next Tom Brady but the value of the jersey will never match the final price.

MLB.com has some steals. If you root for any MLB team, go to their website and watch their auctions, a bargain pops up now and then.

I don't deal in the other leagues so I can't comment on them.
To illustrate my point:
My advice, which you should take with a grain of salt? Wait for the secondary market unless it's an item you must own. eBay has garnered the following 3 Sami Salo's and their original price.


Rookie Sens I paid $200, original buyer paid $595
Third year Alt Sens (25+ repairs!) I paid $202, original Buyer $595
Last year's Canucks Blue I paid $175, original buyer $295

I paid $310 for my white 06/07 Salo, but I saw him wear it live while beating the Senators 2-1 and wearing it while scoring the game winning goal against the Blackhawks (where I photomatched it)

[mvandor]

No way these items will return what people are paying for them on resale. The LT is over $10,000 now. Eric, would you part with yours for that much?

[mvandor]

LT jersey went for $14,000. Any of you that own LT GU jerseys want to tell me you spent CLOSE to that on yours? That's insane, you could nail down a bunch of HOFer GU jerseys for that.

Hell, the Rivers is over $5,500.00 and thus far the guy is not exactly knocking on Canton's door.

Clearly, NFL Auctions and I will never be doing business together. Anyone point me to some former or current Chargers' star players solid GU jerseys I won't have to empty my child's college fund for? :(

[Eric]

LT throwback jersey ended at over 14k!!!!

http://www.nflauction.nfl.com/cgi-bin/ncommerce3/ProductDisplay?prrfnbr=91003992&prmenbr=65664914&aunbr=91350702

[mvandor]

LT throwback jersey ended at over 14k!!!!

http://www.nflauction.nfl.com/cgi-bin/ncommerce3/ProductDisplay?prrfnbr=91003992&prmenbr=65664914&aunbr=91350702

My point exactly. I'm sure no one here paid CLOSE to that for theirs or could get close to that on resale.

For name players, NFL Auctions has become a buying ground for the rich who have too much money to burn.

[Eric]

Recession? What recession?

Here are some NFL Auction prices from last night

Tomlinson powder blue jersey from '07 $14,010
http://www.nflauction.nfl.com/cgi-bin/ncommerce3/ProductDisplay?prrfnbr=91003992&prmenbr=65664914&aunbr=91350702

Tomlinson '06 throwback helmet $6756
http://www.nflauction.nfl.com/cgi-bin/ncommerce3/ProductDisplay?prrfnbr=90902365&prmenbr=65664914&aunbr=91249075

Carson Palmer 2007 jersey $6440
http://www.nflauction.nfl.com/cgi-bin/ncommerce3/ProductDisplay?prrfnbr=90966884&prmenbr=65664914&aunbr=91313594

Adrian Peterson 2007 jersey $5630
http://www.nflauction.nfl.com/cgi-bin/ncommerce3/ProductDisplay?prrfnbr=90836256&prmenbr=65664914&aunbr=91182966

Philip Rivers 2007 jersey $5589
http://www.nflauction.nfl.com/cgi-bin/ncommerce3/ProductDisplay?prrfnbr=90839446&prmenbr=65664914&aunbr=91186156

Antonio Gates 2007 jersey $4963
http://www.nflauction.nfl.com/cgi-bin/ncommerce3/ProductDisplay?prrfnbr=91004510&prmenbr=65664914&aunbr=91351220

Chad Pennington 2007 jersey $3022
http://www.nflauction.nfl.com/cgi-bin/ncommerce3/ProductDisplay?prrfnbr=90960655&prmenbr=65664914&aunbr=91307365

Tony Romo 2007 jersey $2975
http://www.nflauction.nfl.com/cgi-bin/ncommerce3/ProductDisplay?prrfnbr=90903873&prmenbr=65664914&aunbr=91250583

Shawne Merriman 2007 powder blue jersey $2810
http://www.nflauction.nfl.com/cgi-bin/ncommerce3/ProductDisplay?prrfnbr=90839447&prmenbr=65664914&aunbr=91186157

Champ Bailey 2007 jersey $2510
http://www.nflauction.nfl.com/cgi-bin/ncommerce3/ProductDisplay?prrfnbr=90839452&prmenbr=65664914&aunbr=91186162

Steve Smith 2007 jersey $2260
http://www.nflauction.nfl.com/cgi-bin/ncommerce3/ProductDisplay?prrfnbr=90966116&prmenbr=65664914&aunbr=91312826

Marshawn Lynch 2007 jersey $2210
http://www.nflauction.nfl.com/cgi-bin/ncommerce3/ProductDisplay?prrfnbr=90842626&prmenbr=65664914&aunbr=91189336

Warren Sapp 2007 jersey $2110
http://www.nflauction.nfl.com/cgi-bin/ncommerce3/ProductDisplay?prrfnbr=90971709&prmenbr=65664914&aunbr=91318419

[mvandor]

My point exactly. You guys have been buying from them for years, aren't these prices WAY off the reservation compared to the past?

I bailed on the Rivers jersey at $2,000 which was WAY beyond where I should have gone and it went for over $5,000.

[David]

Of course a auction lot can go way over or under market value in any auction. If auction lots across the board go way overboard, then there is serious question. A comparison is to look at lots in a REA, Lelands or Mastro Auctions-- which are the top advertised sport auction houses in the world and will presumably receive fair market value. If another auction house is trouncing these auction houses across the board, then something would appear to be amiss.

Also note that in most legitimate big auctions, the prices slowly go up as the auction proceeds. Of course some lots will legitimately start with a bang, but most proceed methodically. I've often seriously wondered about auction houses where the bids are across the board at or above market value on day one or two-- as this is abnormal compared to other auction houses.

[scottanservitz]

Chad Pennington for over 3K? Are you kidding me? Hall of Fame jerseys can be had for less than most of these. I am just dumbfounded on these prices.
Scott

[David]

One other thing. Anyone who watches auctions or who sells on eBay knows that items will at, above and below expectations. One item will sell a lot higher than you expected, while another will sell way below. This is the way it naturally works.

Be wary of eBay or other auctioneer where all the lots reach wonderfully high pricing, nothing failed to meed expectations-- as this isn't natural or normal. Even in a well publicized Lelands catalog auction, there will be steals and items that sell less than anticipated-- this is normal auction behavior.

[lund6771]

Of course a auction lot can go way over or under market value in any auction. If auction lots across the board go way overboard, then there is serious question. A comparison is to look at lots in a REA, Lelands or Mastro Auctions-- which are the top advertised sport auction houses in the world and will presumably receive fair market value. If another auction house is trouncing these auction houses across the board, then something would appear to be amiss.

Also note that in most legitimate big auctions, the prices slowly go up as the auction proceeds. Of course some lots will legitimately start with a bang, but most proceed methodically. I've often seriously wondered about auction houses where the bids are across the board at or above market value on day one or two-- as this is abnormal compared to other auction houses.

I agree 100% with this post

There is no question that there is shill bidding goimg on at some auction houses...sometimes I think that it's also done to try and drive up the market, not just an individual piece

I'm still trying to figure out if shill bidding is legal in Nevada

I would be shell shocked if there is shill biiding going on at NFL auctions...what would be the point?...I have not seen a real good deal on NFL, but I guess that's where a true collector goes to buy something because he wants 100% piece of mind that it's real..I do think that the Steven Jackson jersey was a good deal last night...it has upside, but that's about it IMO

[Eric]

There were some decent deals I thought

Jason Taylor jersey went for $1320
http://www.nflauction.nfl.com/cgi-bin/ncommerce3/ProductDisplay?prrfnbr=90836260&prmenbr=65664914&aunbr=91182970

Julius Peppers jersey $1150
http://www.nflauction.nfl.com/cgi-bin/ncommerce3/ProductDisplay?prrfnbr=91004507&prmenbr=65664914&aunbr=91351217

Stephen Jackson jersey $1035
http://www.nflauction.nfl.com/cgi-bin/ncommerce3/ProductDisplay?prrfnbr=90902002&prmenbr=65664914&aunbr=91248712

John Lynch jersey $920
http://www.nflauction.nfl.com/cgi-bin/ncommerce3/ProductDisplay?prrfnbr=90839451&prmenbr=65664914&aunbr=91186161

Shawne Merriman throwback pants $615
http://www.nflauction.nfl.com/cgi-bin/ncommerce3/ProductDisplay?prrfnbr=91034447&prmenbr=65664914&aunbr=91381157

Lavernaeus Coles Throwback helmet $495
http://www.nflauction.nfl.com/cgi-bin/ncommerce3/ProductDisplay?prrfnbr=91012535&prmenbr=65664914&aunbr=91359245

[gridman80]

Chad Pennington for over 3K? Are you kidding me? Hall of Fame jerseys can be had for less than most of these. I am just dumbfounded on these prices.
Scott

Suum cuique amigo...America...what a great country...Happy Collecting!!!

[RKGIBSON]

I really wonder how many real collectors are on this site. Owning these items is not about the money to collectors, it is about having the item. Crying about about what others do with their money seems to be a standard here. Worrying about the collector getting their money back is a waste of your time. My stuff is not for sale unless I get what I want, when I deside to sell it. I personally make my money somewhere else, I just spend it on game used items that I want. I guess we "collectors" should just backoff and let you "investors" have the stuff so you can resale it?

The statement that the owners of the other LT jerseys could not get $14K for them is a uneducated statement. May things go on amount collectors that is not made public or seen on a auction web site. Personally, I have been offered more than that for my 2006. It's not for sale, I like it more than having the money. Its a great peice in my collection. There have been 5 sold by the NFL. I bought 3 of them, paid what it took each time. I have never lost any money on them. If I wanted to look at it in this way, deducting what I made on the two I sold, I have less than I paid for the first one, $4600.00, in my 2006.

I am sure the buyer of the 2007 LT, who I know and is a member here, did not want to pay that much but, wanted it enough to. He makes his money somewhere else too.

Collecting football game used items is something I do for enjoyment. I collect other things too, Cars, Wooden duck decoys, Old Sleepy Eye pottery, Gibson and Rickenbacher Guitars. It gets my mind off everyday things, I like the stuff. I started out on the lower end. Bought and sold, upgraded till I could own the things I really want. I looked at a Gibson guitar Saturday, the guy wanted $36K. I did not want it that bad, maybe $20K. If someone likes it that much it does not make me mad that he wants to pay that. Its his money.

Personally, I say way to step up to the plate SilverOak and Gridman80 to get what you want for your collections and the many other that got great stuff from the best place to get it.

Roger

[Jake51]

Great post Roger - thanks for doing a great job of putting into words what I know I was thinking.

Could I get your e-mail address? I had a question for you.

Thanks,

Tom

[34swtns]

Wow. I don't really know how to respond to that but I'm gonna give it a crack.......

We all know Roger is playing with a FAT stack....I mean fat. And more power to him for being able to spend money like that. Wish I could but I can't. Family, 2 cars, mortgage, kids' college tuition, etc., etc. make that not possible. I would imagine the vast majority of us are in the same boat. In fact I would be correct in saying the vast majority of the population, in general.....are in the same boat. Most of us can't imagine being able to drop 4K on a "shirt" or 20K on a "geetar". That just doesn't fall within the bounds of reality for most of us.
I guess to sum it up I'd have to say to Roger and the other "fat stack" guys out there: enjoy the fact that you can do what most of us can't. I for one am happy for you and don't begrudge you for it a bit, but just remember one thing.......don't get all flabergasted and defensive when one of us "little stack" guys bitches about how much people are willing to pay for things we wish we had a shot at. 'Cuz, brother when you got bills to pay, kids to raise, and you're doing it with 1 or 2 average household incomes, a 4k jersey just isn't going to happen and a 20k guitar is a fairy tale.
I'm 43 years old and smart enough to know that "the good stuff costs extra" but a man's right to complain about it is his, and is absolutely free.
My 2 pesos. ;)

[mvandor]

Wow. I don't really know how to respond to that but I'm gonna give it a crack.......

We all know Roger is playing with a FAT stack....I mean fat. And more power to him for being able to spend money like that. Wish I could but I can't. Family, 2 cars, mortgage, kids' college tuition, etc., etc. make that not possible. I would imagine the vast majority of us are in the same boat. In fact I would be correct in saying the vast majority of the population, in general.....are in the same boat. Most of us can't imagine being able to drop 4K on a "shirt" or 20K on a "geetar". That just doesn't fall within the bounds of reality for most of us.
I guess to sum it up I'd have to say to Roger and the other "fat stack" guys out there: enjoy the fact that you can do what most of us can't. I for one am happy for you and don't begrudge you for it a bit, but just remember one thing.......don't get all flabergasted and defensive when one of us "little stack" guys bitches about how much people are willing to pay for things we wish we had a shot at. 'Cuz, brother when you got bills to pay, kids to raise, and you're doing it with 1 or 2 average household incomes, a 4k jersey just isn't going to happen and a 20k guitar is a fairy tale.
I'm 43 years old and smart enough to know that "the good stuff costs extra" but a man's right to complain about it is his, and is absolutely free.
My 2 pesos. ;)

Co-sign.

I don't begrudge anyone their "stack" but when they bag on the less fortunate? C'mon Rog. When you're investing thousands, a wise man that lacks money to burn wants to know he can at least get his money out when he liquidates.

[34swtns]

Co-sign.

I don't begrudge anyone their "stack" but when they bag on the less fortunate? C'mon Rog. When you're investing thousands, a wise man that lacks money to burn wants to know he can at least get his money out when he liquidates.

Precisely. While the true "collector" will respond with an impassioned "but my stuff will never be for sale", (and God luv ya' for feeling that way), he must realize that he is the exception and not the rule. Most of us buy with a keen eye on "the other end" of our collections: the day when us or some family member who inherits our "junk" will have to re-sell it all. I've collected many things in the past and have always lived by the "smart collector's Rule #1": never buy anything that doesn't acrue in value. (Except your car, of course).
While it would certainly be nice to be able to pay any price under the sun for things just because you want them, most of us have no desire to be buried with our collections and so have to be more realistic in purchasing for the longhaul. I don't want my family to end up stuck trying to re-sell a bunch of stuff that I WAY overpaid for.

[dafivehole]

mvandor & 34swtns, you guys are right on! :) Couldn't have said it better... on a side note, with regards to buying from an impecable source, last year the Toronto Argonauts (CFL) team was selling game used jerseys on eBay and their Ricky Williams jersey was no where near game used! They stated the exact game that it was worn in and it showed ZERO wear... I found several pictures from that game (an outdoor, natural grass & dirt game) and his jersey was simply covered with incredible wear (none of which was on their jersey... and washing alone wouldn't have cleaned it up that much)... I sent them the pics I had and they stopped all email communication... the jersey, oddly enough, still remained on eBay :rolleyes: Anyway, buy what you want (and what you can afford) :D

Roger (the other one)

[lund6771]

Co-sign.

I don't begrudge anyone their "stack" but when they bag on the less fortunate? C'mon Rog. When you're investing thousands, a wise man that lacks money to burn wants to know he can at least get his money out when he liquidates.


"Bag on the less fortunate?"...come on Mvandor, are you kidding me?????

This site has members who range from one end of the financial spectrum to the other end...it's totally cool if people want to talk about the prices that people are paying, but it has started changing in it's tone... people on here have started implying that some buyers are "stupid or idiots" for spending the money that they do on stuff...maybe you guys are starting to hit a nerve within this thread...

so a guy comes on here to defend his thinking, and when actually YOU are the ones bagging on them!!!

there has never been one time where anyone has come on here and glaoted that they can afford something when others can't...is it that you're jealous?...That's my guess!!!!

SO LET IT GO!!!!!!!!!!!

[dafivehole]

It starts with the man in the mirror :cool:

[5kRunner]

If someone can afford to spend $14k on a jersey, who are we to tell them they can't?

This is the United States of America. If you don't like your present situation, you can change it any day you feel like it. If you can't afford to spend $14k for a jersey, but want to. Put a plan together, Bust your butt, change professions, do whatever you have to do and get it done.

But don't tell someone they can't or are stupid for spending THEIR money on something THEY want.

[mvandor]

If someone can afford to spend $14k on a jersey, who are we to tell them they can't?

This is the United States of America. If you don't like your present situation, you can change it any day you feel like it. If you can't afford to spend $14k for a jersey, but want to. Put a plan together, Bust your butt, change professions, do whatever you have to do and get it done.

But don't tell someone they can't or are stupid for spending THEIR money on something THEY want.

Hmm, I don't recall insulting anyone in this thread. If the hobby has millionaires that continue to price us schlubs out on items, so be it. However, most people I know with money got it by being wise and judicious in how they manage it. Clearly, many of these NFL Auction items are being purchased far beyond reasonable market rates likely by guys with jack to spare that can afford not to care about whether they get their money back on resale - or heck even at estate sale when they go.

Certainly given the cost of GU items, the vast majority of collectors can't afford to buy without confidence they can get their money out at some future point - for the benefit of them or their heirs. Heck, even collectors of expensive art in the top 1% of income earners generally consider return on sale when they bid on art.

[34swtns]

Well said, mvandor

5KRunner, you're putting words into people's mouths.
Not cool.

[5kRunner]

mvandor,
You're right. I apologize, no one insulted anyone. I misread lund's statement about "implying people are stupid" as someone had said it. But, I re-read the thread and clearly there are no insults. Sorry. :o

[CollectGU]

Clearly, many of these NFL Auction items are being purchased far beyond reasonable market rates likely by guys with jack to spare that can afford not to care about whether they get their money back on resale - or heck even at estate sale when they go.



People who are buying from the NFL and NBA are defining the market rates not going beyond them. These are unique items with pristine provenenace that can be photo matched to games. Years from now, the backlash from all the bad current player crap out there will actually cause pieces like this with provenance directly to the game played to be highly coveted by collectors because there will be so few available. Supply and demand will be on their side....

Dave

[lund6771]

Dave...can you believe it?...we actually agree on something!!! :)

[kingjammy24]

hello gents

- "nfl prices are a lot higher than comparable items from ebay/auction houses!"

provenance costs money. apparently, some are willing to a substantial premium to sleep at night.

- "the little guy can't afford this stuff!"

welcome to life. nfl auctions is hardly unique in this respect. the little guy is priced out of tons of stuff. perhaps i should go to the local bentley dealership and express my disdain that i've been priced out of a new '08 continental. this is a hobby; a luxury. unless we're talking about necessities like sufficient housing, food and clothing, then there's no requirement or expectation that these items be priced within your personal budget. like any hobby, there is a financial barrier to entry. if you find the barrier too steep then either increase your income, decrease your expenses, or find a hobby that is more commensurate with your financial means. again, collecting game-used items is not an inherant right. most people in the world feel limited by their financial means to one extent or another.

- "this stuff is way over market value!"

comparing items with no provenance to items with strong provenance is not accurate. the market reflects this. the market value for a john lynch jersey with no provenance is not the same market value as for one sold directly from the team.

- "they'll never recoup their money if they decide to sell"

they'll likely have a far easier time selling than if they'd have no provenance. congrats on buying an LT "gamer" on ebay for $1k. good luck selling it in 10 yrs when every legit gamer on the market will come from the team/league and your undocumented jersey is regarded as an anomaly. ask george jetefan what he feels the emergence of steiner did to his pre-steiner yankees collection.

secondly, many are correct in saying that the buyers don't care if they recoup their money and others wonder how it's possible to not care. easy; it's a hobby so you naturally assume you're going to lose money. isn't that what hobbies typically do? the money i spend in this hobby is set aside as mad/fun money so i assume it won't be recouped. the funny thing is that many of those who wonder how it's possible to spend thousands that can't be recouped also have kids. good luck recouping money spent on kids. when these folks go on vacation, do they return only to lament that the vacation didn't make them any money? kids, hobbies, vacations, pets are all money losers. to expect them to be anything else is to completely miss the point of them. if you cannot spend money that has a chance of being lost, then i suggest a CD, money market fund, or GE stock. i don't suggest a pujols bat or jeter jersey. if an inability to recoup what you've spent would pose a financial hardship on your family, then perhaps you shouldn't be spending that money in the first place.

"Over spending because you "Know it's real" isn't worth that much..."

it is to me. i derive great pleasure from my jays jerseys that i purchased directly from the team. i imagine roger also gets great pleasure from many of his iron-clad items. what's that joy worth exactly? whatever it's worth, it's certainly more than the items that i don't have 100% faith in.

many spoke of needing to maintain future resale value. while it's difficult to do this when you've overpaid, it's also going to be increasingly difficult to sell in a future where team/league provenance will be commonplace. i've seen jerseys with no provenance rot on ebay for months while their counterparts with provenance have sold quickly for high amounts. they may have lost money but at least they sold.

"..brother when you got bills to pay, kids to raise, and you're doing it with 1 or 2 average household incomes"

these are all personal choices; prioritizations. don't lament that you can't have your cake and eat it too though. if a person chooses to have umpteen kids and chooses to have 1 spouse stay at home, then it makes little sense for them to complain about their lack of discretionary income or their ability to financially compete with people who chose not to have kids. the funny thing is that they'll spend a TON of money on their kids and not expect a financial return.

"The market will eventually bottom out and these items will start to be more realistic... it's just that the original buyers will lose a ton of money on their initial investments. Patience my friends..."

this may very well happen. it certainly happened with Steiner. when they first came out with their yankee items, most collectors spit soda out of their mouths. a few well-heeled collectors paid but most stood on the sidelines disgusted and complained about their unrealistic prices. (to be fair though, these nfl prices were set by the auction results. ie: the market. steiner's initial prices weren't set by the market.) eventually the predictions came true and their supply outstripped the demand. consequently, prices fell. i'm sure the early buyers lost money. i doubt many of them care. afterall, they got first pick of the items and many of them likely acquired their grail pieces and derive a great deal of pleasure from them to this day. they know the difference between a hobby and an investment.

rudy.

[mvandor]

People who are buying from the NFL and NBA are defining the market rates not going beyond them.

This is only true if the same NFL COA'd items bring as much on the secondary market when resold. Provenance doesn't change on the item but I'm fairly certain buyers at these NFL Auction prices won't find recouping their monies so easy to do at resale regardless of the NFL COA.

That in a nutshell is my point.

[kingjammy24]

This is only true if the same NFL COA'd items bring as much on the secondary market when resold. Provenance doesn't change on the item but I'm fairly certain buyers at these NFL Auction prices won't find recouping their monies so easy to do at resale regardless of the NFL COA.

That in a nutshell is my point.

i agree this is likely. many who paid top dollar with steiner weren't able to get the same amount when they turned around and sold their steiner yankee shirts on ebay or at auctions.

any theories as to why?

rudy.

[RKGIBSON]

I am not sure where the myth that I am wealth got started. I have amassed a lot of stuff in 55 years, thats the way it usually works. I do spend my extra money on game used items as I want. I restore cars for a living. I am compensated, well as I am good. www.rogergibsonautorestoration.com (http://www.rogergibsonautorestoration.com) You can see what I do.

I do not disrespect anyone here for what the collect. You can buy big foam fingers, that were waved at a game, if that is what turns you on. I got one customer that has 6000 beer openers??????

I do have regard for the amount I spend. I wanted to buy the Simms and Harte jerseys, Heisman winners, in AMI. They just went higher than I wanted to pay. I was saving my money for the LT helmet. Am I normal by standards?

After speaking to Victor, I found out a card company was bidding was bidding up the Harte. I told myself there is no way that jersey is worth that to me, and quit. Lucky enough some collector stayed on it and won it from being cut up. I suspect that is exactly what was going on with the 07 LT.

Spirited debate here is a fine. I alway like to know how other collectors, buyers, think. There is nothing wrong with dealers or individuals buying and selling, I have done a lot of it since 1995. I am always looking for the next great peice, upgrading.

There are always two or more bidders that set the prices we have to pay in NFL Auctions, I'm not sure about others:) . I wish I could spend less, I might buy another guitar. I may be sitting in a nursing home wearing my Peyton Manning jersey some day, cause I can't sell it, but I'll be enjoying it.

Respectfully,
Roger

[RKGIBSON]

Jake51,

My email: irestorecars@sbcglobal.net

Roger

[34swtns]

This whole issue is simply a difference between the "haves" and the "have nots". Neither can know the reasoning behind the other's actions. Bottom line.

Rudy....spoken like a true "have".
I'm quite sure us "have nots" will all be just fine never having had the opportunity to own some of the luxury items owned by the "haves". One thing's for sure though, when all is said and done, I will have gained infinitely more of a "return" on my investment in my kids than all the jerseys in the world.

Maybe, in life, the true measure of a man is in what he truly places value upon. That being the case, I think us "have nots" are actually the real "haves" here, come to think of it.

[kingjammy24]

"This whole issue is simply a difference between the "haves" and the "have nots". Neither can know the reasoning behind the other's actions. Bottom line.
Rudy....spoken like a true "have".
I'm quite sure us "have nots" will all be just fine never having had the opportunity to own some of the luxury items owned by the "haves". One thing's for sure though, when all is said and done, I will have gained infinitely more of a "return" on my investment in my kids than all the jerseys in the world."

spoke like a "have" because i said that this hobby may not be for everyone's budget? or because i said that there's nothing unfair about not being able to afford an LT gamer?

we're all simultaneously 'haves' and 'have nots'. some can't afford what i can and i can't afford what others can. i'm sure that's the same for you 34swtns. you call yourself a "have not" but that's only in relation to certain others. compare yourself to another group of folks and you're a "have".

i don't believe it's necessarily a have vs have not discussion. the issues i was responding to specifically were the ones expressing dismay at being priced out, those directing criticism towards those who simply decided to pay a certain price, and those that said that game-used items should always recoup their investments.

we're all priced out of certain things. it's how you're viewing it that's the issue. fact is, i'd love to own a '92 alomar WS game-used jersey. if one came on the market, it'd be too rich for my blood. i wouldn't sit there and lament my position and how it's unfair and say "the rich idiot who bought it has more money than sense! he'll never get his money back!". i'd say good for him, i hope he enjoys it, it's a great jersey. i'm priced out of a million things in life. someone here said it's a man's right to complain and it's free to do so. if you're going to lament all the things you can't afford in life, it's going to be a long, tiring life. however, i suppose a long tiring life is also your right and it's also free.

"Maybe, in life, the true measure of a man is in what he truly places value upon. That being the case, I think us "have nots" are actually the real "haves" here, come to think of it."

i agree that the measure of a man is in what he values. that said, i'm not sure what it is about being financially wealthy that precludes a person from valuing their family or friends as much as someone who isn't wealthy.
you speak as if the "haves" can't possibly have friends and family and appreciate them as much as the "have nots".

rudy.

[kingjammy24]

when all is said and done, I will have gained infinitely more of a "return" on my investment in my kids than all the jerseys in the world.

by the way, you've proven my point. despite how much money you've poured into your kids, the intangible rewards were worth it. the money was irrelevant and you didn't expect a financial return.

in the same way, when someone pays a huge amount for a jersey that they really treasure, they don't give a rat's ass about whether or it they'll recoup their costs because the intangible rewards are worth it to them.

if you can understand that with kids, then you can understand it with something as simple as jerseys. kids aren't financial investments and i was simply saying that neither is a hobby. both offer intangible rewards that make the financial investment worth it.

rudy.

[DRILLINDK]

Gentlemen, I think we're beating a dead horse.

[EndzoneSports]

Chiming in a bit late, as recently, I'm not frequenting this forum nearly as often...

I don't see any use in throwing in my 2c, regarding rationale for for pricing or who does/does not and can/cannot afford to play in this particular sandbox. These topics have been pretty well covered Rather I thought I'd mention a trend recently noticed regarding a new and unique "buy-high-and sell-low" business model.

For some reason, a couple of folks bought what were assumed to be "bargains" via NFL Auction... Both 2007 Broncos game jerseys, a DJ Williams purchased last Nov for $705 and Dre Bly, selling in Dec for $475. Within a couple of short week, the Bly found its way to eBay with an asking price in excess of $800; the jersey was finally sold this week after accepting an offer of $450 (including NFLA shipping, a loss of $37). The Williams having been procured sooner, was listed considerably later, but sold in the same week, for $369--a loss (including shipping) of nearly $350!

While I certainly can't comment on the reasons for or thought processes behind these transaction, it should be reasonably clear that one cannot pay a premium price to acquire an item and then subsequently offer it for sale via a venue known for its bargain-basement offerings and expect to profit from the deal.

Best regards,

[mvandor]

Chiming in a bit late, as recently, I'm not frequenting this forum nearly as often...

I don't see any use in throwing in my 2c, regarding rationale for for pricing or who does/does not and can/cannot afford to play in this particular sandbox. These topics have been pretty well covered Rather I thought I'd mention a trend recently noticed regarding a new and unique "buy-high-and sell-low" business model.

For some reason, a couple of folks bought what were assumed to be "bargains" via NFL Auction... Both 2007 Broncos game jerseys, a DJ Williams purchased last Nov for $705 and Dre Bly, selling in Dec for $475. Within a couple of short week, the Bly found its way to eBay with an asking price in excess of $800; the jersey was finally sold this week after accepting an offer of $450 (including NFLA shipping, a loss of $37). The Williams having been procured sooner, was listed considerably later, but sold in the same week, for $369--a loss (including shipping) of nearly $350!

While I certainly can't comment on the reasons for or thought processes behind these transaction, it should be reasonably clear that one cannot pay a premium price to acquire an item and then subsequently offer it for sale via a venue known for its bargain-basement offerings and expect to profit from the deal.

Best regards,

While the auction houses seem to deliver greater prices on an undeserved superior air of legitimacy, you just documented my point, that being that even with the NFL COA, these items are being purchased at a premium that will not be supported on resale in the secondary market.

[kingjammy24]

.. even with the NFL COA, these items are being purchased at a premium that will not be supported on resale in the secondary market.

i asked this earlier but failed to garner a response. a dealer can set any price they want, however realistic or unrealistic. an auction hammer price, on the other hand, is set by the market. NFL Auctions didn't sell that jersey for $X, it's collectors who bid it up to that amouint. that said, i'm genuinely curious why an item would sell for more on NFL Auctions than the same item would on Ebay (with full NFL certs). If an LT gamer sells for $10k on NFL Auctions, why would it fail to get substantially less than $10k if it were immediately flipped to ebay with full certs? both auctions are open to the same people so why are these people bidding more on the NFL website than on Ebay despite the provenance being identical?

rudy.

[reed1216]

I purchased the DJ Williams jersey from EBay at a significantly lower price than NFL Auctions got for it. I was thinking of buying it when it was initially offered, but I thought paying over $700 was a little steep. At $369 on EBay, I thought it was a steal.

I don't think the high auction prices are limited to the NFL. I noticed a couple of years ago Suns retro jerseys on nba.com were bid way too high. The Steve Nash was over $3500 and MeiGray, at the time, had a Mavericks Nash for sale on their website for $1500. I would imagine the retro Suns was more desirable, but it certainly did not warrant a price differential of over $2,000.

In my opinion, the league websites, for the most part, draw a different type of consumer. Those of us who read and post on these boards are more knowledgeable about equipment than many of the people who might visit nfl.com or nba.com and run into an auction item that gets their attention. I think most of us have several different types of sellers that we trust and as a result, we are less inclined to spend more cash than we think is fair market value for a given item.

However, we are not the only group of consumers with the money to finance a collectible we desire. Maybe the guy that spent $3500+ on the retro Nash just brought junior to a game and junior saw the jersey while checking the NBA scores and told his dad that he really wanted that Nash jersey for Christmas. Maybe dad wasn't too aware of the different purchasing options that we're all aware of and bought it, knowing it would be real, since it came directly from the NBA.

I really think that a bargain is in the eye of the beholder. All this talk of whether someone overpaid for an item is really quite ridiculous, in my opinion. I know I have bought and sold items for a profit, as well as taking the occasional loss on something. The bottom line is I have never missed a mortgage payment as a result and have thoroughly enjoyed my experiences in this hobby. If I can find another item, like the Broncos DJ Williams jersey, that is resold by somebody at a loss, that's great. If I find something I REALLY want and have to overpay for it, that's great too. I'm just glad that I've been able to educate myself a little bit to be able to make better choices that might save me a buck, or two, in the long run.

[mvandor]

why would it fail to get substantially less than $10k if it were immediately flipped to ebay with full certs?

Because they do.

Read reed's post above as a classic example.

There is something about NFL Auctions that seems to attract bigger money than secondary sources when these same items are resold even with the NFL cert. I won't venture to guess why, but it's something I've observed and it's easy to document as with reed's example. Discussing it is anything but "ridiculous" as reed opined. I apparently won't be buying there because I can't afford to throw away thousands of unrecoverable money, like reed I'll wait for these same items to surface elsewhere at a more market friendly price.

This seems to be happening to high visibility player items, not lesser player items for the most part. But it certainly seems to be happening.

[lund6771]

can someone give me an example where a big named jersey or helmet was sold on the secondary market?

the only one that comes to my mind was a Tomlinson throwback, and that sold for 25% more than it did in the NFL auction

[aeneas01]

in the same way, when someone pays a huge amount for a jersey that they really treasure, they don't give a rat's ass about whether or it they'll recoup their costs because the intangible rewards are worth it to them.

i agree - believing that the collecting of one of a kind items is a battle between the haves and have-nots of the world is somewhat naive and very much off the mark imo. the bottom line is that there are many collectors out there that do not purchase such items as an investment; many collectors that aren't remotely concerned with recouping their money at a later point in time or realizing a future gain - regardless of their financial position.

i think this phenomena was well illustrated at christie's recent star trek auction in new york - the history channel put together a wonderful documentary chronicling the event including interviews with bidders, many that flew halfway around the world to attend and participate. the number of average joe bidders interviewed that broke their bank just to get an authentic piece of star trek memorabilia was both startling and heart-warming. no flippers, no investors, no speculators, no jet setters, no tycoons - just die hard star trek fans that were willing to mortgage the house just to get an authentic piece of tangible memorabilia that represented something very important in their lives.

face it, the collecting one of a kind items ain't cheap and the competition for these items is fierce - but the competition isn't fierce because we're forced to bid against the bill gates' of the world, it's fierce because we're forced to bid against the bill gates' of the world and the hordes of collectors prepared to sacrifice more than us. but isn't this part of the beauty of the beast?

[both-teams-played-hard]

i think this phenomena was well illustrated at christie's recent star trek auction in new york - the history channel put together a wonderful documentary chronicling the event including interviews with bidders, many that flew halfway around the world to attend and participate. the number of average joe bidders interviewed that broke their bank just to get an authentic piece of star trek memorabilia was both startling and heart-warming. no flippers, no investors, no speculators, no jet setters, no tycoons - just die hard star trek fans that were willing to mortgage the house just to get an authentic piece of tangible memorabilia that represented something very important in their lives.

Did you read recent news reports that determined that some of these Star Trek items were phoney and fabricated?

[aeneas01]

Did you read recent news reports that determined that some of these Star Trek items were phoney and fabricated?

no, i hadn't heard - but doing a web search it appears that this claim is specific to one dissatisfied bidder, a dissatisfied bidder that is also seeking millions in punitive damages. apparently he won, among a few other items, a visor worn in one of the episodes by the character "data" - his claim is that when he attempted to have it autographed the actor told him it was fake, that he knew this because he had owned the original and recently sold it. the bidder also claims in his complaint that he was "under the impression" that he was bidding on "one of a kind items" so he is no longer interested in a uniform he also won (for $11k).

but here's a take from one of the star trek stars about the case...

"There are no "one-of-a-kind" spacesuits for regular cast members, because the studio needed to have several doubles in case one of our costumes got dirty or damaged in some way (I once fell while running to the set, and tore the knee out of my hideous gray suit from Season 2, for example.) We never had just one of anything, unless it was expensive to make, or for a guest star who was appearing in just one show.

This guy also says that Brent told him that the visor he bought wasn't the one Brent wore, because Brent already sold that one years ago. Again, Brent could have been talking about a visor from Best of Both Worlds, and this guy got a visor from All Good Things, or something like that.

It doesn't make sense that CBS would defraud fans the way this guy alleges, and I think it's more likely that this guy has buyer's remorse."

http://snafu-ed.blogspot.com/2007/12/star-trek-tng-fan-sues-christies-over.html


anyway, it seems far from conclusive that any of the items were definitely fakes. but speaking of the star trek auction, check out the hefty prices some of the items brought in - especially compared to their "estimated" value.... gotta love collecting!

http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/40_Years_of_Star_Trek:_The_Collection

[reed1216]

lund6771 (http://www.gameuseduniverse.com/vb_forum/member.php?u=1502) http://www.gameuseduniverse.com/vb_forum/images/statusicon/user_offline.gif
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 330


http://www.gameuseduniverse.com/vb_forum/images/icons/icon1.gif Re: NFL Auctions Pricing Reaching Unreasonable Levels?
can someone give me an example where a big named jersey or helmet was sold on the secondary market?

the only one that comes to my mind was a Tomlinson throwback, and that sold for 25% more than it did in the NFL auction


I totally agree with this. While the DJ Williams jersey might be a good example of getting an item below what NFL Auctions did, Williams isn't a really big name. I happen to think he's a damn good player (led the AFC in tackles last season), but he has yet to be named to an NFL post season all pro team in the four seasons he has played and the Broncos defense hasn't exactly made anyone forget about the 1985 Bears.

Of course I wouldn't have bid on the jersey if I didn't think he has the potential to grow into an all pro type of player, but that's speculation. I haven't seen anyone take a significant loss on a well documented, sure fire HOF caliber player's jersey yet.

[cohibasmoker]

Guys, since the players do not have the rights to their equipment, MAYBE the player's themselves or close family members are buying the stuff.

Players are collectors also and on more than one occassion, I've seen a player exchange a helmet or football with an oppossing player after a game at the LINC.

Jim

[nyjetsfan14]

I really don't get the point of the thread. If somebody wants to pay a certain price then so be it, it is America. On the Jets website there is a bidder, johnp303, who snatches up most every high end gamer at absolutey insane prices. I believe he won a Ben Graham jersey for over 2,000 (yes, Ben Graham is a mediocre Jets punter who got benched last season)! Does it stop lesser financially gifted bidders from getting items? Sure but who cares, I say good for him if he has it. If somebody is paying 7,000 bones for an LT helmet worn for a couple games then good for that person. I know one thing, instead of serving in the world's greatest Navy (which was not very lucrative at all) I should have learned to restore cars :D Still, on my very limited income I have been able to build a rather extensive and vintage Jets collection with not a single item purchased from an auction house or NFL auctions. I never purchase for investment, profit, or resale, only for the love of the Jets. Maybe a better thread would be how auction houses have turned the hobby into a business and have de personalized (yes I think I am making up words now ala Roger Clemens) the hobby to a certain extent. Trading and communicating with fellow collectors in your area of specialty is definitely on the decline.

[gridman80]

Funny thing is I enjoy finding and owning a flimsy nylon screened on early '90's Johnny Hector Jets jersey for a couple hundred bucks as much as I do winning a D'Brickashaw Titans on NFL Actions for 800 bucks or buying a Matt Snell 1964 jersey for eight large. I couldn't afford Maynard's SB3 shirt for nearly 30K but so what....I've had the privilege to see private collections worth more than $5M in my estimation...But I still get the same joy out of what I do own...it seems to be in some collector's DNA to focus more on what they can't afford or can't get than to simply enjoy what they do own...Not to sound preachy but we'd get more out of this hobby if we helped each other find stuff rather than take shots at each other based on financial status or personal motivation for collecting....Enjoy the hobby!

[David]

There are cases in collecting where a wealthy person or couple of people legitimately buys items at an inflated prices-- inflated to what others would pay. When they quit buying, the prices go down, as the proverbial #2, #3 bidders/buyers won't pay as much.

An example is in the comic book market. 'Book prices' were set by two wealthy buyers who paid a lot for stuff they wanted. The purchases were legitimate. However, when they quit buying the comic book prices fell drastically as they rest of the market would not pay their prices.

So what one person pays may be a legitimate buy, but that does not always translate to what others will pay.

[David]

Another example is the 1999 Sotheby's Barry Halper Auction where all the prices were over the top. I assume the bidding was legitimate but there was lots of excitement for this once in a lifetime auction. Most of the stuff that was reauctioned in the year or two later sold for a lot less.

[nyjetsfan14]

Not to sound preachy but we'd get more out of this hobby if we helped each other find stuff rather than take shots at each other based on financial status or personal motivation for collecting....Enjoy the hobby!

There's a novel idea...help each other out (and one JM backs up having helped me out on numerous ocassions) cuz the auction houses sure aren't helping anybody out with 17.5% or more buyer AND seller fees, authenticating bad items, and cloaking items/their history/and source in secrecy! Of course with that being said these auction houses do help sellers get substantially more than they would otherwise and do help people turn a nice profit flipping items found on the secondary market but to me they still take the fun and communication aspect out of an aquisition. Just one unimportant mans opinion.