Albert Pujols 2004 Game Used W.S. Jersey????

[gameused]

I saw this Pujols jersey listed on ebay and was wondering if the Cardinals experts could chime in and give their opinion.

I bought a Larry Walker Cardinals bat a few years ago from Jeff Sullivan and the bat was used by pitcher Matt Morris. It is my belief that Jeff doctored the knob and wrote in Walkers number "33". Brian Finch, assistant curator for the Cardinals museum, confirmed this bat was likely doctored and was originally sold at the team store as a Matt Morris game used (Larry Walker) bat. If you are considering bidding on this jersey I would be extremely cautious. A link to the previous discussion about the Walker/Morris bat is below.

Thanks, Bobby

Link to ebay auction:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ALBERT-PUJOLS-2004-GAME-USED-WORLD-SERIES-ROAD-JERSEY_W0QQitemZ220207994067QQihZ012QQcategoryZ605 97QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

Link to the Larry Walker bat discussion on the old forum:
http://www.network54.com/Forum/379976/thread/1116285886/Caution+when+dealing+with+Jeff+Sullivan+who+sells+ Cardinals+game+used+items%21

Photos of the bat in question:

[jimbo]

Setting the authenticator's reputation aside for a moment, if you look at the WS Game 1 and 2 photos from 2004 in GettyImages, the jersey offered in the auction does not match either the jersey seen worn by Pujols in Game 1 or 2 in Boston:

1. The number 5 on the front of the seller's jersey does not align properly in relation to the Cardinals script. Compare the placement of the number 5 on the front of the seller's jersey against the GettyImages photos # 51556626 and 51745652 from both WS Game 1 and 2, respectively. In both WS Game 1 and Game 2 photos, if an imaginary line were drawn along the left edge of the "5", it intersects approximately at the start of the "a". On the seller's jersey, that same imaginary line intersects in the middle of the "a".

2. The number 5 on the back of the seller's jersey does not align properly in relation to the nameplate. Compare the placement of the number 5 on the back of the seller's jersey against either GettyImages photos # 53232032 or 53232033 from WS Game 1. In the WS Game 1 photos, if an imaginary line were drawn along the left edge of the "5", it intersects approximately center between the bottom of the "U" and "J". On the seller's jersey, that same imaginary line intersects at the midpoint of the bottom of the "U".

I was unable to find any WS Game 2 photos clearly showing the back of his jersey in GettyImages, however the fact that the number 5 on the front of the jersey didn't match either Game 1 or Game 2 photos (see 1 above), makes further photo matching a moot point.

I'd say unless the seller can provide further provenance beyond the identified authenticator's LOA/COA, the jersey is questionable.

[bigtruck260]

I have to admit - I was just in discussion with a local dealer two weekends ago about this EXACT bat...and Mr. Sullivan. The dealer was selling something that originated from him...and we started talking. I am still pretty new to collecting bats as a hobby - so hewas never on my radar.

However, I have seen a few items on eBay (Pujols signed GU hats, etc.)
that came with Sullivan COA's.

I am not going to brow beat anyone - especially since I don't know Jeff - only his previous stellar repuation (and then this legacy that we are speaking of...)

However, I would like to point out that there are MANY "experts" and guys with the greatest contacts who decide at some point that they should be making more money as the go-between...and this type of stuff happens.

The more knowledge and experience you have (and solid rep.), the easier it will be for you to scam someone down the road. You may have had 1000 great legit transactions, but the three or four that were doctored or forged will be the ones that haunt you forever.

Doesn't take much in this biz to ruin you as a business person.

Bobby - thanks for posting this, as well as the archived forum page. Very Interesting stuff. Speaking of Jeff - why do I never see him post here? Is it because he is posting under another name or am I just not seeing them?

Dave

[kingjammy24]

i don't know jeff and i don't know where this particular jersey came from but in general, it's very easy for anyone to invent any sort of provenance when there's no hard proof. if i don't have a shred of anything to back up what i say, then what's to stop me from saying i got the jersey from pujols himself or the equipment manager or the ghost of august busch? everyone's got a story. i'd want to see some proof of it.

anyway, there were only 2 games in the '04 WS where the cards wore road jerseys - game 1 and game 2. here they are:

http://img233.imageshack.us/img233/7199/sillyhp6.jpg

rudy.

[bigtruck260]

Rudy -

Thanks for bumping this topic. I have been watching this jersey and marinating on it since it was posted here...

There is an interesting item in that old forum thread (network 54) that mentioned something about Jeff Sullivan purchasing some Pujols lettering packs.

Now I am really wondering. I passed on a hat that was being offered by someone he sold to in the past...if you do a search, you could probably find the EXACT post I made...it was being offered for $1200 - and I am glad I passed.

Still though, I would like to hear Jeff defend himself.

Dave

[kylehess10]

i don't know jeff and i don't know where this particular jersey came from but in general, it's very easy for anyone to invent any sort of provenance when there's no hard proof. if i don't have a shred of anything to back up what i say, then what's to stop me from saying i got the jersey from pujols himself or the equipment manager or the ghost of august busch? everyone's got a story. i'd want to see some proof of it.

anyway, there were only 2 games in the '04 WS where the cards wore road jerseys - game 1 and game 2. here they are:

http://img233.imageshack.us/img233/7199/sillyhp6.jpg

rudy.


It appears that the "5" is sewn more to the left in game photos when compared to the jersey in question

[bigtruck260]

Guys -

This auction is way out of control. We need some solid proof that the jersey listed in the eBay auction mentioned is NOT a legit jersey...

So, here it is.

Notice the Matt Morris jersey - the World Series patch is outlined in WHITE.

The Pujols jersey does not have this outline...how can this be explained away?

The bidding has reached $2000 - someone had better take a look at this forum before making a mistake.

Dave

[Jags Fan Dan]

Guys -

This auction is way out of control. We need some solid proof that the jersey listed in the eBay auction mentioned is NOT a legit jersey...

So, here it is.

Notice the Matt Morris jersey - the World Series patch is outlined in WHITE.

The Pujols jersey does not have this outline...how can this be explained away?

The bidding has reached $2000 - someone had better take a look at this forum before making a mistake.

Dave

Yep, this can also be seen on Albert's jersey in the photo in Kyle's post above!

[bigtruck260]

A few more Cardinals jerseys from the 2004 World Series...

[kingjammy24]

i took a look at the offerings on ebay and interestingly enough there were 2 different styles of 2004 WS patches available: the one seen in the getty photos and the one seen on jeff sullivan's jersey. here are two links showing each style:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=280148535675

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=200174065652

here are the two patches:

http://img512.imageshack.us/img512/8824/sillyqp9.jpg

there are some notable differences besides the obvious white outline.

rudy.

[bigtruck260]

You are absolutely correct Rudy. Just thought I would touch on something I missed the first time around...

D

[bigtruck260]

You are absolutely correct Rudy. Just thought I would touch on something I missed the first time around...

D

Here you go Rudy - let the forum decide...

[skipcareyisfat]

Nice spot guys. A couple more pics from the '04 WS. The patch in the action shot is hard to see but it looks white to me. Could be, Pujols swung so hard here that his patch flew off into the stands, and the souvenir stand had the only spares in the building.

[kingjammy24]

few more pics. all show a patch with a white outline. pic of pujols also seems to show him wearing a patch with white outline.

http://img84.imageshack.us/img84/5214/sillyzq1.jpg

rudy.

[PAT HODGINS]

I pulled these images from MLB.com. It was cold enough to where pullovers during pregame. Notice the patches.

Pat Hodgins

[woodbat]

I saw this Pujols jersey listed on ebay and was wondering if the Cardinals experts could chime in and give their opinion.

I bought a Larry Walker Cardinals bat a few years ago from Jeff Sullivan and the bat was used by pitcher Matt Morris. It is my belief that Jeff doctored the knob and wrote in Walkers number "33". Brian Finch, assistant curator for the Cardinals museum, confirmed this bat was likely doctored and was originally sold at the team store as a Matt Morris game used (Larry Walker) bat. If you are considering bidding on this jersey I would be extremely cautious. A link to the previous discussion about the Walker/Morris bat is below.

Thanks, Bobby

Link to ebay auction:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ALBERT-PUJOLS-2004-GAME-USED-WORLD-SERIES-ROAD-JERSEY_W0QQitemZ220207994067QQihZ012QQcategoryZ605 97QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

Link to the Larry Walker bat discussion on the old forum:
http://www.network54.com/Forum/379976/thread/1116285886/Caution+when+dealing+with+Jeff+Sullivan+who+sells+ Cardinals+game+used+items%21

Photos of the bat in question:

Bobby (gameused),
Number 33 doesn't look right to me. Here is my Larry Walker bat, second photo is the barrel end and last is the knob. Note both "33"'s are very close to the same. However doesn't appear to favor the number "33" on your bat. Is there a uniform number on the barrel end? Having said all this, a check of my Matt Morris bat, and no uniform number on barrel or knob. Maybe some other folks with Larry's bats can add to this.
Don
woodbat@bellsouth.net

[bigtruck260]

I pulled these images from MLB.com. It was cold enough to where pullovers during pregame. Notice the patches.

Pat Hodgins

SO the 2nd set of patches was made for warmup attire...

Seems like someone hurried to get the jersey done and in their haste (and presumably making up a story about it being from a coach, etc.,) they missed a detail that an newcomer might miss at first glance.

After all, the buyer apparently bought it originally based on the trust of the dealer. DO you think the person selling it is aware of the problem?

The answer is probably. I contaced the seller earlier today and told him that other Cardinal jerseys (including Albert's) had a patch with a white outline...here is the response:

Dear bigtruck260,

I'm sorry, but I haven't seen your jerseys. Interesting hobby.


- 400hillcrest

[kingjammy24]

it is interesting that 2 different patches were made for '04 WS. the rarity of 2 different legit WS patches made me initially feel that one of them may have been a retail patch. for most of the big events, there exist the pro patches that are actually worn on field and then the similar-but-not-identical patches made for sale in retail outlets.
i'd be interested to see a retail version of the '04 WS patch.
anyway, it's probably superfluous seeing as how the front number placement and patch seem inconsistent but i was looking at the nob and it also seems inconsistent with photos of pujols in the '04 WS. the ebay nob shows a greater arch than seen in photos and there's also a difference in the amount of space between the letters and the edge of the nameplate.
jeff sullivan posts his cardinal sales here regularly so i hope he's able to shed some insight into this perplexing jersey.

http://img177.imageshack.us/img177/6888/sillyuw3.jpg

rudy.

[bigtruck260]

Rudy -

I think if Jeff was concerned about it he would have already posted about it. There is no doubt he has seen this thread by now.

I still reserve judgement until I have heard him say his peace - regardless of how I feel about the jersey. Without seeing the COA, etc. for all we know, the seller is simply using Jeff's name...that is why I am hoping Jeff clears up this mess. There are not that many quality dealers in STL...

Dave