Thoughts On Junior Seau helmet?

[Eric]

Is this helmet being offered by ebay user acl233

http://cgi.ebay.com/JUNIOR-SEAU-MIAMI-DOLPHINS-GAME-USED-WORN-HELMET_W0QQitemZ150228090586QQihZ005QQcategoryZ86828QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

the same as this one? The seller says it's not.


Is there any way to tell? (I think the use might have to be discarded when comparing the two)

Anyone know the seller acl233?
Thanks

[Eric]

Re: Thoughts On Junior Seau helmet?

Here's the interior of the one on ebay

[mvandor]

Re: Thoughts On Junior Seau helmet?

What second helmet are you comparing to?

[aeneas01]

Re: Thoughts On Junior Seau helmet?

eric -

the "seau" helmet listed on ebay is a schutt pro-air model which seau never wore - he wore schutt's next generation model, the air-advantage, throughout his years with the fins. in short, there's a big problem with the listed lid.

speaking of seau and helmets - he was a riddell guy during his years with the bolts and returned to wearing a riddell when he joined the pats. as a matter of fact, he even wore a riddell when he first joined the fins - at least during his first training camp with the fins and the first few preseason games. but once the regular season started he began sporting a schutt air-advantage and continued to do so until he left for new england. did schutt pay him for this? did a dolphin teammate turn him onto schutt? who knows...

it's pretty easy to quickly tell the difference between the two schutt models as shown below - the forehead sizer (padding) that can usually be seen when looking at these helmets head-on is very different, especially in the corner areas (circled in red). and, fwiw, the photos of seau the ebay seller has included in his ad show seau sporting an air-advantage, not the pro-air he is selling....

[aeneas01]

Re: Thoughts On Junior Seau helmet?

eric -

i thought you were asking if the ebay was authentic, which it's not. but i see that you are asking something else - if the helmet listed on ebay is the same one as shown in the photo you provided. imo there is little doubt they are the same lid....

[mvandor]

Re: Thoughts On Junior Seau helmet?

the "seau" helmet listed on ebay is a schutt pro-air model which seau never wore - he wore schutt's next generation model, the air-advantage, throughout his years with the fins.

aeneas, the Advantage is the current Schutt model with the slit behind the ear hole, isn't it? Some Seau shots on Getty show the helmet sans that slit, which would make it the Air II, no?

[Eric]

Re: Thoughts On Junior Seau helmet?

I had remembered seeing a Seau Dolphins helmet sold on Steve Misturini's AuthenticSports website. I wrote the ebay seller and asked if it was srouced from them. The seller says it came from a teammate of Seau's.

(This seller has two ebay accounts acl233 and nfl2mlb and is/was selling
a 2003 Dante Hall game used Chiefs helmet

http://cgi.ebay.com/DANTE-HALL-82-KANSAS-CITY-CHIEFS-GAME-USED-WORN-HELMET_W0QQitemZ150221425077QQihZ005QQcategoryZ86828QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

AuthenticSports was selling a 2001 Dante Hall game used helmet

A Champ Bailey Redskins 2003 helmet

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=150211072496

AuthenticSports was selling a Champ Bailey 2003 helmet

A Chad Pennington Jets helmet
CHAD PENNINGTON N.Y. JETS QB GAME USED WORN HELMET (#150200356032)

AuthenticSports was also selling a 2004 Pennington helmet

Here is a list of what helmets AuthenticSports had in their inventory a while back

http://www.gameuseduniverse.com/vb_forum/showpost.php?p=27599&postcount=7

The seller also is selling or has sold a Warren Sapp helmet

http://cgi.ebay.com/WARREN-SAPP-GAME-USED-WORN-TAMPA-BAY-BUCS-HELMET_W0QQitemZ110233984228QQihZ001QQcategoryZ86828QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

And a Drew Bledsoe helmet.

http://cgi.ebay.com/DREW-BLEDSOE-GAME-USED-WORN-BUFFALO-BILLS-HELMET_W0QQitemZ110229508059QQihZ001QQcategoryZ86828QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

Aeneas, I'd love to hear your thoughts on these pieces. I enjoy reading your informative posts and you are a true asset to this board and the hobby
Eric

I know helmets are very hard to come by, so if this is a coincidence, it's an amazing one.

[mvandor]

Re: Thoughts On Junior Seau helmet?

As aeneas has said many times, modern lids are just too easy to replicate. In the case of the Seau, even the chinstrap is readily available, only the pearl white metallic finish might be a challenge to procure.

Guy is NOT getting game used prices from the items you listed, more like custom helmet prices. Betting his stories are the same on where he got them in each case. Hard to trust people playing the multiple account game for sure.

[zachary]

Re: Thoughts On Junior Seau helmet?

IN addition does anyone have any thoughts on the Thomas
jersey the same seller has listed.

[aeneas01]

Re: Thoughts On Junior Seau helmet?

aeneas, the Advantage is the current Schutt model with the slit behind the ear hole, isn't it? Some Seau shots on Getty show the helmet sans that slit, which would make it the Air II, no?

good eye mvandor....

the thing is, when we discussed your tomlinson helmet i was under the impression that schutt had released the air-advantage around 2004-2005 - i was also under the impression that the "slit" was standard when the air-advantage was introduced and that it provided a quick and convenient way to easily tell schutt models apart.

but the fact of the matter is schutt introduced the air-advantage in time for the 2001 season - further, the early models did not have the "slit". from what i can tell, it appears that the slit was added in 2004/2005.

with that said, tomlinson has worn an air-advantage since joining the bolts in 2001 - never a pro-air. further, from what i can tell, tomlinson never switched to the newer air-advantage with the slits as far as his navy helmet was concerned; he only switched to the newer av with the slits hen it came to his white helmet. this tells me that lt probably stuck with the same navy lid for quite a few years.

but back to the seau helmet in question - seau definitely wore an air-advantage when with the fins, the earlier "slitless" model, not a pro-air as listed on ebay. as far as the ebay helmet being the same helmet eric was asking about, compare the small dot below the right "5" of the "55" appearing on the inside of the helmet. also compare the the light dot on the orange stripe just above the nose bumper. in the game photo i posted of seau there also appears to be a light dot in the same location - heck, it would be tempting to even call it a photo match. but imo this dot in the game photo is simply an extension of a reflection which is supported by other game photos. on the other hand i don't believe the dot on the listed helmet is a reflection - i think it is there and shows on both helmets making them the same lid.

Aeneas, I'd love to hear your thoughts on these pieces.

eric, as mvandor mentioned, i feel that these sort of helmets are just too easy to imitate so i really don't spend much time looking at them closely - i did see all of the helmets you mentioned and there was nothing about them that made me believe that they couldn't have been easily pieced together.

and, fwiw, i think a lot of buyers seem to be very impressed with the "special team paint" appearing on some ebay helmets - they seem to believe that the lids must be authentic given the metallic or pearl finishes. but this isn't a special paint - what gives helmets this look is just pearl or metallic powder mixed with a translucent polyurethane top coat; it can purchased at many paint outlets.

back to pro-air and air-advantage helmets: from the photos below you can see that it's pretty easy to tell the difference between a schutt pro-air (left) and air-advantage (right) when looking at the lid head-on. isaac bruce switched from a pro-air to an air-advantage the year the av became available. the bottom two photos show an air advantage without the "slit".

[mvandor]

Re: Thoughts On Junior Seau helmet?

So you're saying the Advantage has the square interior pad, the Air the round?

[aeneas01]

Re: Thoughts On Junior Seau helmet?

So you're saying the Advantage has the square interior pad, the Air the round?

short answer:

yes

long answer:

excluding jaw pads, the interior padding of the two helmets is also considerably different - the interior of the air-advantage consists of nothing more than the air-bladder and a very cheap feeling / looking styrofoam padding. frankly mvandor, the styrofoam in the air-advantage has the look and feel of what one might expect from a floor display model with fake padding.

schutt billed the air-advantage as a "lighter" alternative to the pro-air given the pro-air was fitted with thicker, heavier vinyl-covered foam padding (sizers) - some players even continued to use the thicker pro-air sizers with their air-advantage lids when they first came out. also, the larger ventilation holes in the air-advantage apparently saves on some weight as well. but imo the weight difference is negligible once the facemask, hardware, paint, etc. is added. imo schutt simply discovered a more efficient air-bladder that allowed for less redundant padding.

speaking of schutt lids, the original "air-power" helmet (pro-air's predecessor) was manufactured by bike products and introduced in the mid to late '70s. schutt eventually acquired bike helmets in the late '80s but didn't change the helmet design until the pro-air was introduced. but the change was very slight and mostly effected the "round" air-bladder you mentioned - instead of 8 spokes the bladder was reduced to 7 which created a better forehead padding area. so when you see older schutt helmets, the ones with 8-spoke bladders are air-power models and the ones with 7-spoke bladders are the newer pro-air models. but everything else about the helmets are virtually identical....

btw mvandor, when i was checking out this "seau" lid i revisited our discussion from months ago when you and i chatted about lambeualeeper and your tomlinson helmet - those were my first posts to the forum and, i have to say, i was pretty embarrassed by my tone and sarcasm as i reread the thread, especially in response to your posts. further, and again embarrassingly, it doesn't appear that i ever mentioned in the thread the reasoning for my tone. if that's the case then let me explain now - i was a complete jerk when i responded to your posts because i was sure that you were lambeauleeper and that you were using the forum to try and convince forum members of the authenticity of the goods.

obviously i should have spent more time reading posts and getting to know forum members before i shot off at the mouth in that manner - but i guess i was so excited to find this haven (and so annoyed at folks like lambeau) that i just couldn't wait to post my thoughts on the matter. anyway mvandor, please accept my apology.

[mvandor]

Re: Thoughts On Junior Seau helmet?

anyway mvandor, please accept my apology.

None needed, that exchange was the beginning of my education, I learned much and continue to from your posts. I definitely got taken by ole Lamby and overpaid at least $200+ for my LT lid. There's even a better one on ebay now for $300 honestly represented as a copy. Same facemask issue and too many rear decals, but is a very good LT 2006 knockoff at a reasonable price. I love that helmet but I'll never recover what I have into it.

[John in KY]

Re: Thoughts On Junior Seau helmet?

short answer:

yes

long answer:

excluding jaw pads, the interior padding of the two helmets is also considerably different - the interior of the air-advantage consists of nothing more than the air-bladder and a very cheap feeling / looking styrofoam padding. frankly mvandor, the styrofoam in the air-advantage has the look and feel of what one might expect from a floor display model with fake padding.

schutt billed the air-advantage as a "lighter" alternative to the pro-air given the pro-air was fitted with thicker, heavier vinyl-covered foam padding (sizers) - some players even continued to use the thicker pro-air sizers with their air-advantage lids when they first came out. also, the larger ventilation holes in the air-advantage apparently saves on some weight as well. but imo the weight difference is negligible once the facemask, hardware, paint, etc. is added. imo schutt simply discovered a more efficient air-bladder that allowed for less redundant padding.

speaking of schutt lids, the original "air-power" helmet (pro-air's predecessor) was manufactured by bike products and introduced in the mid to late '70s. schutt eventually acquired bike helmets in the late '80s but didn't change the helmet design until the pro-air was introduced. but the change was very slight and mostly effected the "round" air-bladder you mentioned - instead of 8 spokes the bladder was reduced to 7 which created a better forehead padding area. so when you see older schutt helmets, the ones with 8-spoke bladders are air-power models and the ones with 7-spoke bladders are the newer pro-air models. but everything else about the helmets are virtually identical....

btw mvandor, when i was checking out this "seau" lid i revisited our discussion from months ago when you and i chatted about lambeualeeper and your tomlinson helmet - those were my first posts to the forum and, i have to say, i was pretty embarrassed by my tone and sarcasm as i reread the thread, especially in response to your posts. further, and again embarrassingly, it doesn't appear that i ever mentioned in the thread the reasoning for my tone. if that's the case then let me explain now - i was a complete jerk when i responded to your posts because i was sure that you were lambeauleeper and that you were using the forum to try and convince forum members of the authenticity of the goods.

obviously i should have spent more time reading posts and getting to know forum members before i shot off at the mouth in that manner - but i guess i was so excited to find this haven (and so annoyed at folks like lambeau) that i just couldn't wait to post my thoughts on the matter. anyway mvandor, please accept my apology.

Great post that sums up the differences in the Air helmets. I'm more of a "historian of helmet design" than a collector, but I should point out that some of the original Bike/"Air Helmet Inc."/Schutt Air Power helmets with the 8-spoke bladder actually had a two-layer bladder. I saw a "fitting" video back on an NFL pre-game show in the late 1970s that showed the player with just the bladder on his head getting the inner layer inflated. Then it was installed in the helmet, the entire helmet fitted and the upper layer inflated. I've never seen one in person; just the Pro Airs and later models. Schutt used to have old Air Power parts on their website with a cut-away of the two layer bladder. Also, I think the Pro Air might date to the final year of the Bike name (circa 1985 or so).

You can see the progression from the Air Power where the inlflated bladder was the element that provided the most protection, through the Pro Air where they were moving toward more foam padding, through to the current Air Advantage where it is relying mostly on the foam padding instead of the air bladder.

Final trivia - Bike is actually a two-time loser at the helmet game. Bike's parent company was a medical equipment supplier that was sold to a larger company in the mid-1980s. The new owners got very nervous about having deep pockets and getting sued by someone with a football neck injury, so they spun the helmet division off under the name "Air Helmet Inc." It lasted as an independent for less than one year before Schutt bought them. After their non-compete with Schutt expired, Bike brough out their "Pro Edition" helmet, which was an ultra-light model worn by people like Warren Sapp. Bike was a victem of their own sucess with this one and couldn't fill the orders. They were forced to sell this line of helmet to Adams, who makes the current version of the helmet.

[Eric]

Re: Thoughts On Junior Seau helmet?

I had remembered seeing a Seau Dolphins helmet sold on Steve Misturini's AuthenticSports website. I wrote the ebay seller and asked if it was srouced from them. The seller says it came from a teammate of Seau's.

(This seller has two ebay accounts acl233 and nfl2mlb and is/was selling
a 2003 Dante Hall game used Chiefs helmet

http://cgi.ebay.com/DANTE-HALL-82-KANSAS-CITY-CHIEFS-GAME-USED-WORN-HELMET_W0QQitemZ150221425077QQihZ005QQcategoryZ86828QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

AuthenticSports was selling a 2001 Dante Hall game used helmet

A Champ Bailey Redskins 2003 helmet

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=150211072496

AuthenticSports was selling a Champ Bailey 2003 helmet

A Chad Pennington Jets helmet
CHAD PENNINGTON N.Y. JETS QB GAME USED WORN HELMET (#150200356032)

AuthenticSports was also selling a 2004 Pennington helmet

Here is a list of what helmets AuthenticSports had in their inventory a while back

http://www.gameuseduniverse.com/vb_forum/showpost.php?p=27599&postcount=7

The seller also is selling or has sold a Warren Sapp helmet

http://cgi.ebay.com/WARREN-SAPP-GAME-USED-WORN-TAMPA-BAY-BUCS-HELMET_W0QQitemZ110233984228QQihZ001QQcategoryZ86828QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

And a Drew Bledsoe helmet.

http://cgi.ebay.com/DREW-BLEDSOE-GAME-USED-WORN-BUFFALO-BILLS-HELMET_W0QQitemZ110229508059QQihZ001QQcategoryZ86828QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

Aeneas, I'd love to hear your thoughts on these pieces. I enjoy reading your informative posts and you are a true asset to this board and the hobby
Eric

I know helmets are very hard to come by, so if this is a coincidence, it's an amazing one.

see another thread for an additional overlap between authenticsports and acl233

http://www.gameuseduniverse.com/vb_forum/showpost.php?p=77630&postcount=2