Jaworski Eagles jersey on eBay... Hmmm...

[dafivehole]

http://cgi.ebay.com/GAME-USED-WORN-RON-JAWORSKI-JERSEY-EAGLES_W0QQitemZ260224248639QQihZ016QQcategoryZ868 29QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

I've looked at probably 50+ pics on www.gettyimages.com (http://www.gettyimages.com) and other archival sites and in EVERY pic, Jaworski has a green stripe at the end of each sleeve (on his green jerseys). This jersey does not have that green stripe... I asked the seller and he said that the sleeves were cut off at the white stripe... everything else looks good on the jersey but the stripes have to be a serious concern. Am I wrong here?!? :confused:

Thanks,
Roger

[beantown]

I was more concerned with the the Russell neck tag, nameplate font, no year tag and jersey appears to be cut (seller has not confirmed).

Here is another Eagles jersey from '82 which seems to match photos of other Jaworksi jerseys from this era with a "thinner" font...thoughts anyone?

[beantown]

I contacted the seller and told him I couldn't match the jersey to any photos...he called me an "idiot" as he informed me the jersey has been in the hands of several authenticators....wow, it must be real ;)

[commando]

I contacted the seller and told him I couldn't match the jersey to any photos...he called me an "idiot" as he informed me the jersey has been in the hands of several authenticators....wow, it must be real ;)

I like how he "misplaces" the only shred of provenance that supposedly came with this jersey, and he calls YOU the idiot...

[aeneas01]

I contacted the seller and told him I couldn't match the jersey to any photos...he called me an "idiot" as he informed me the jersey has been in the hands of several authenticators....wow, it must be real ;)

yeah, that's a guy you wanna do biz with, eh? fwiw his "jaworski" lid is the same one that sold for $3,700+++ at american memorabilia in 2005. the lid strikes me as an authentic eagles lid from the '80s but i'm pretty sure jaworski never wore that style of facemask - he wore several different masks during his pro career but, again, never that one.

[gameusedfan]

There is now a 0 feedback bidder who has made eight bids on items and seven have come on this item. You know what I think? Yeaaahhhh....

As for the helmet, I have Cunningham and Reggie White helmets, both from the mid-80s and both have name stickers that are dark green, almost blending in with the color of the helmet. This one not only looks new but is bright green.

In general, the bad customer service, blurry photos, and inconsistencies in the items make for the kind of items I have decided to let go to another buyer.

Roger

[helmets]

Won by the bidder with ZERO feedback for $830.00. The bidder has been registered and an ebay member since Mar 10, 2000. Over eight years, and zero feedback? Come on.

Roger, what year is your Reggie White helmet from? Any idea? I own one that I believe he wore in 1987, so I was wondering about yours.

[gameusedfan]

It has been so long since I have matched it up that I forget offhand. I got it early in my collecting days and trusted the Lampson LOA a little too much. I received it and realized everything was correct on it except it had a protective strip over the crown of the helmet and every photo I researched had him wearing a helmet without this strip. So it took about two years of looking through magazines, football cards, and newspaper pictures before I found that there was a year he wore the helmet with the strip. The reason I had such a hard time is that it did not come close to matching the approximate date suggested in the Lampson LOA. Below is (hopefully) a picture of the helmet. Shoot me a photo or two of yours and I'll see if I can match it up.


11085

[helmets]

The helmet that I have is a Riddell. White wore both while playing with the Eagles, and wore Riddell with the Packers. I will get some photos of it tomorrow and send them to you. What is your email? I will post some here as well. Mine has the strip that you talk about, but it covers and protects the valves of the padding for the Riddell helmet. The strip is beaten pretty good in the front, but you can see where it was cut at an angle above the nose bumper. In photos from 1987, that strip is cut at the same angle. All of the date codes line up from the mask, shell, and clips. In addition, I have matched the decals on the rear as well. The size of the helmet is an 8. I know he had a huge melon, but I have yet to confirm that. In the 80's, they had the size decal on the rear as well as on the inside, so I am trying to match that up.

[aeneas01]

It has been so long since I have matched it up that I forget offhand. I got it early in my collecting days and trusted the Lampson LOA a little too much. I received it and realized everything was correct on it except it had a protective strip over the crown of the helmet and every photo I researched had him wearing a helmet without this strip. So it took about two years of looking through magazines, football cards, and newspaper pictures before I found that there was a year he wore the helmet with the strip. The reason I had such a hard time is that it did not come close to matching the approximate date suggested in the Lampson LOA. Below is (hopefully) a picture of the helmet. Shoot me a photo or two of yours and I'll see if I can match it up.


12880

the thing that always amazes me about lampson and auction houses is that they will go on and on about dates found on recondition decals, dates written in magic marker on the inside of the lid, dates on clips or offer some ambiguous date information such "this helmet dates to the late 80s, early 90s. rarely (never?) do these folks simply state that helmet has a manufacturer's date stamp of xxxx which would of course answer a lot of questions - and the reason for this, imo, is that these folks aren't/weren't aware of these date codes or simply didn't know how to read schutt or wilson date codes or know where to look for riddell's circa 80s and later date codes.

below is a copy of lampsons letter that came with your helmet when it sold for $585 some time ago - lampson correctly points out that there are a lot of problems with the lid including facemask, clips and chinstrap, etc. - but what i'm curious about is what he was referring to when he stated that "the lower right side is stamped 1988". is this a stamp that appears on a decal? on the shell? is it a heat stamp? also, what is the manufacturers date appearing on your helmet? you should be able to find it on the inside of the shell, top crown area, small circle - let me know if you would....

btw, i have many photos that show rw's lid with the transparent valve protection tape - what i don't have or what i haven't seen is a shot of him wearing a lid with the tape cut off where it is on your helmet. all the shots i have show the tape running length of the lid....


http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y238/aeneas1/sub/lamp.jpg

[helmets]

Robert/Roger:

Here are a couple of pics that I took of my helmet. It is an AF2. I know White wore a Riddell "large" shell in 1986, from photos. On the large shell, the Eagle wing is about an inch off of the ear hole. On the XL shell such as this one, the Eagle wing is further away from the ear hole. I have attached a photo of White from 1987 wearing what appears to be an XL shell - judging from the distance of the wing to the hole. If you look close at the clear stripe, it appears to be cut at an angle. The stripe on my helmet is battered and beat, but the adhesive residue on the helmet from the stripe appears, IMO to be at the same angle as the photo. I do not see a date code in the top crown of the shell, unless it is under the center doughnut of the padding. I didn't want to pull that out as it has the valves and the side padding all attached and secured. There is a heat stamp under the left jawpad. It appears to be "F8".

Let me know your thoughts.

[helmets]

Here is another that I found.

[gameusedfan]

Hey, guys. Aeneas, yep, that is my helmet. I am dealing a little blind right now because I am at work but I checked last night, and at some point in the past, I matched the shell to 1990. Whether that is correct or not, I don't know but it is DEFINITELY inconsistent with the date used by Lampson in the "LOA." As far as I can tell, he had not used a shell with the ridge (ie, plastic strip) until mid-way through 1990 and then switched back to the ridgeless helmet (and he changed to a thicker facemask at that time as well) in 1991. From my research and hazy memory, a helmet used in the second half of the season in 1990 would be consistent with clips from 1991 and a new facemask. My guess is that prior to/during the 1991 season, they took the facemask off and put on a facemask that was in the locker room (as well as a chin strap) and then it walked out the door. It was not used by another player because the tape on the back was not replaced and is consistent with my other 1980s helmets. Let me know what you want to know and I'll check when I get home. I will also see if I can find my notes to see if he used this helmet at all in 1991 (which would explain even more). My conclusion is that the only thing Lampson was correct in saying is that the facemask doesn't have the vertical bar and that the chinstrap is wrong but hell, my ten year old son could have seen that.

I am including a pic that I found right now that illustrates what I am talking about above.

"Helmet": If you have any question as to whether your helmet is from 1986 or 1987, get a copy of the 1987 Eagles Yearbook. The entire front cover is a photo of Reggie. May be of a little help.

I am just psyched there is finally an Eagles discussion. It has been far too long.

11112

[helmets]

Yes, I have a Game Day from Aug 1987 and the whole cover is a photo of White from 1986. That is the photo where the Eagles wing is closer to the earhole, unlike the two photos from 1987 that I attached in my previous post. I am sure Robert will post a glob of 1987 photos from his "data base" in the near future...

[gameusedfan]

Helmet, take a look at your clips to the right and left of the EAGLES logo on the front of the helmet. What is the number imprinted on them.

By the way, I went home last night and looked at my helmet. Mine is almost identical to yours. Does yours have the "ventilation" holes on the top and the back of the helmet? Also, does yours have the Riddell bumper on the bottom of the back of the helmet? Mine does but some don't.

Aeneas, if you are still out there, do you remember the White helmet sold on Heritage a few years back? It appears my helmet, "Helmet's" helmet, and mine all are pretty similar in nature.

One other thing now that I have had a chance to check my helmet and all the photos I have saved... It does in fact appear that he used the helmet with the ridge one and off for about five years. I incorrectly stated that he only used this style circa 1990.

I was very suprised that there are so few pictures of one of the greatest NFL players ever. And basically, I am back to square one with this thing. The helmet was his but the date of use is unknown and quite frankly, probably will never be known because of the lack of photos.

[helmets]

Roger:

All four of the clips on my White helmet are dated '86. The mask is also dated '86.

Yes, there is a rear Riddell bumper. The rear of the helmet has a factory black on white warning label on one side, a black on clear warning label on the other side of the helmet. There is also a size label "8" on the left side of the helmet. There is also dymo tape "WHITE" with the "ITE" sticking out, exposed, faded, and worn, and the "WH" is under the rear bumper and when the bumper is peeled back, that part of the dymo tape looks almost new.

I saw a program on ESPN about three months ago - "Beyond the Glory" about Reggie White. It had footage from '87 and the rear of the helmet looked the same as you could see the size label and the factory warning label. I wished I had taped the program so I could get a better look at it.

[aeneas01]

looks like the jaworski lid sold for $1,700 less on ebay than it did at american memorabilia in 2005 (ebay - $2k, am 3.7K)....

as far as reggie's lid is concerned, here are some photos i dug up - from what i can tell it doesn't appear that he sported the rear padding flap until 1989. also, it's clear that he wore a vsr-3 from at least 1991 on. could be that he had a wd fitted with vsr-3 padding prior to that as well - not an uncommon thing to do during that era. it could also be that he added the flap when he went to vsr-3 padding in 1989 - pretty hard to be certain tho. the thing is, it appears that many eagles players wore af2 lids - as such, i find it hard to believe that every af2 that shows up with a w-h-i-t-e dymo decal is really reggie's game used lid. where are the jeff tupper, byron lee, bob landsee, etc. game used lids? do only hof lids surface? don't mind me, i'm just an annoying cynic...

btw, i have to say that reggie's use of two brands of lids (schutt & riddell) during the same season and over the course of a few years is really odd - it would be great if someone could get the story on this because, as far as i can tell, there wasn't any pattern or rhyme or reason to his switching lids....


http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y238/aeneas1/sub/comp01-1.jpg

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y238/aeneas1/sub/comp02-1.jpg

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y238/aeneas1/sub/comp03-1.jpg

[helmets]

Robert:

Could your 89 photo possibly be from 87? The clear center stripe is identical to the photos that I attached? In addition the chinstrap is the same style that he wore in 87, right down to the tape on the straps.

I do have an 85 Eagles helmet from a nobody. The name escapes me at the moment, but I will check on it Monday when I return home. It is set up much like the "White" helmet, as it too is an AF2, with an NJOP mask. It has leather Riddell jawpads unlike the "White" helmet. It has very little wear on it.

I was looking forward to a comment on the stamp under the jaw pad of "F8", but you did not mention it in your post. What is your feeling on that?

My "White" helmet came from a reconditioner. To my knowledge, it has never been offered for sale prior to me purchasing it. It does not come with any LOA of any kind.

[aeneas01]

Could your 89 photo possibly be from 87? The clear center stripe is identical to the photos that I attached? In addition the chinstrap is the same style that he wore in 87, right down to the tape on the straps.

i would say that the photo could certainly be from the '87 season - unfortunately wire photos can be hit and miss when it comes to accurate dating. the photo i posted was captioned "philadelphia eagles defensive end reggie white in 1989", no game attributed. having said that, i looked at a bunch of photos again and really can't find any that conclusively show white wearing a riddell in 1989 - but the photos i have only span about 5-6 games. he clearly wore both riddell and schutt in 1988 and 1990 but, from the photos i have, it appears that he switched to schutt towards the end of the 1988 season and switched back to riddell towards the end of the 1990 season. as such, it could very well be that white wore a schutt throughout the entire 1989 season - make sense?


I do have an 85 Eagles helmet from a nobody. The name escapes me at the moment, but I will check on it Monday when I return home. It is set up much like the "White" helmet, as it too is an AF2, with an NJOP mask. It has leather Riddell jawpads unlike the "White" helmet. It has very little wear on it.

i think i know which one you have....


I was looking forward to a comment on the stamp under the jaw pad of "F8", but you did not mention it in your post. What is your feeling on that?

that's not a manufacturing date stamp, it's a reconditioning code. if your helmet doesn't have a manufacturer's date stamp on the inside of the lid, crown area, near or underneath the inflatable crown padding, then you should be able to find it behind the lower-rear neck padding strip. to get a good look at it you will probably have to remove the padding strip by flipping back the "riddell" nape pad or removing it (very easy to do) so that you can get at the screw that secures the strip in place. you might also have to peel back the protective tape, if it reaches that far, to get at the screw. once removed, you should clearly see a "time clock" date stamp like the ones that appear on riddell suspension helmets.

[John in KY]

looks like the jaworski lid sold for $1,700 less on ebay than it did at american memorabilia in 2005 (ebay - $2k, am 3.7K)....

as far as reggie's lid is concerned, here are some photos i dug up - from what i can tell it doesn't appear that he sported the rear padding flap until 1989. also, it's clear that he wore a vsr-3 from at least 1991 on. could be that he had a wd fitted with vsr-3 padding prior to that as well - not an uncommon thing to do during that era. it could also be that he added the flap when he went to vsr-3 padding in 1989 - pretty hard to be certain tho. the thing is, it appears that many eagles players wore af2 lids - as such, i find it hard to believe that every af2 that shows up with a w-h-i-t-e dymo decal is really reggie's game used lid. where are the jeff tupper, byron lee, bob landsee, etc. game used lids? do only hof lids surface? don't mind me, i'm just an annoying cynic...

btw, i have to say that reggie's use of two brands of lids (schutt & riddell) during the same season and over the course of a few years is really odd - it would be great if someone could get the story on this because, as far as i can tell, there wasn't any pattern or rhyme or reason to his switching lids....


http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y238/aeneas1/sub/comp01-1.jpg

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y238/aeneas1/sub/comp02-1.jpg

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y238/aeneas1/sub/comp03-1.jpg

aeneas01 - unless I'm going crazy every photo in this montage shows Reggie White with a Riddell helmet - the early ones are AF-2s, the later ones are a VS-3s. Regardless of chin strap position or covered/uncoverd Riddell logo I'm not seeing a Schutt in this series of photos. I don't doubt that he wore one as I vaguely remember him wearing a Schutt during that time frame, but wonder if you meant to post some additional photos.

I pretty positive he wore a Bike Air Power in college; Bike was out of Knoxville so Tennessee was an early adopter (and maybe the second school after Michigan to use them). If he didn't care for the VSR-3s at first, it wouldn't be a stretch to see him back in the Air helmets (which by then were made by Schutt).

[aeneas01]

aeneas01 - unless I'm going crazy every photo in this montage shows Reggie White with a Riddell helmet - the early ones are AF-2s, the later ones are a VS-3s. Regardless of chin strap position or covered/uncoverd Riddell logo I'm not seeing a Schutt in this series of photos. I don't doubt that he wore one as I vaguely remember him wearing a Schutt during that time frame, but wonder if you meant to post some additional photos.

I pretty positive he wore a Bike Air Power in college; Bike was out of Knoxville so Tennessee was an early adopter (and maybe the second school after Michigan to use them). If he didn't care for the VSR-3s at first, it wouldn't be a stretch to see him back in the Air helmets (which by then were made by Schutt).

you are not going crazy - "gameusedfan" and "helmets" were asking about their reggie white riddell helmets so i posted photos of reggie wearing a riddell. white certainly did wear a schutt while in philadelphia and i posted my thoughts on that as well as follows...

"...he clearly wore both riddell and schutt in 1988 and 1990 but, from the photos i have, it appears that he switched to schutt towards the end of the 1988 season and switched back to riddell towards the end of the 1990 season. as such, it could very well be that white wore a schutt throughout the entire 1989 season - make sense?"

[John in KY]

you are not going crazy - "gameusedfan" and "helmets" were asking about their reggie white riddell helmets so i posted photos of reggie wearing a riddell. white certainly did wear a schutt while in philadelphia and i posted my thoughts on that as well as follows...

"...he clearly wore both riddell and schutt in 1988 and 1990 but, from the photos i have, it appears that he switched to schutt towards the end of the 1988 season and switched back to riddell towards the end of the 1990 season. as such, it could very well be that white wore a schutt throughout the entire 1989 season - make sense?"



Sorry; I just misread your post and thought you were planning on posting photos of White in both types to help date the Riddells. I may have to stop reading/posting during lunch and start doing it at home:o .

At any rate, you're a wealth of knowledge about individual player's preferences on helmets and I enjoy learing these; my knowledge is more in the area of helmet design/engineering and approximate dates of manufacture. What I'm missing is info on the early VSR series; I have a gap between knowing the details on the the early 1980s Riddells (late PAC-3s & MicroFit HA-9xs, early WD-1s & AF-2s, and M-155s) and the current stuff (VSR-4 and Revolution).

[aeneas01]

Sorry; I just misread your post and thought you were planning on posting photos of White in both types to help date the Riddells. I may have to stop reading/posting during lunch and start doing it at home:o .

At any rate, you're a wealth of knowledge about individual player's preferences on helmets and I enjoy learing these; my knowledge is more in the area of helmet design/engineering and approximate dates of manufacture. What I'm missing is info on the early VSR series; I have a gap between knowing the details on the the early 1980s Riddells (late PAC-3s & MicroFit HA-9xs, early WD-1s & AF-2s, and M-155s) and the current stuff (VSR-4 and Revolution).

no apologies necessary jiky - btw i think i might be able to help you out filling in your gaps. i have a detailed history of riddell lids, when they came to market, etc., from the rt through revolution. the only trick is finding it! my database is need of much attention as far as organization is concerned; i haven't exactly kept up with it as i've added info!

here's a look at my dbase - the "003 clearshell" folder happens to be the one selected on the left. if you look at the bottom of the image you can see that i have close to 1,000 photos of clearshell helmets in this folder. the "007 suspension" folder probably has the most images, well over 10,000....

now where did i put that riddell history file.....


http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y238/aeneas1/sub/dbase.jpg

pppp

[helmets]

i think i know which one you have.....

Give me the first and last letter of the last name on the dymo tape. If you are correct I'll send ya a cookie...

[John in KY]

no apologies necessary jiky - btw i think i might be able to help you out filling in your gaps. i have a detailed history of riddell lids, when they came to market, etc., from the rt through revolution. the only trick is finding it! my database is need of much attention as far as organization is concerned; i haven't exactly kept up with it as i've added info!

here's a look at my dbase - the "003 clearshell" folder happens to be the one selected on the left. if you look at the bottom of the image you can see that i have close to 1,000 photos of clearshell helmets in this folder. the "007 suspension" folder probably has the most images, well over 10,000....

now where did i put that riddell history file.....


pppp

Wow; that is amazing! If you ever upload it to a server I would love to see it.

[commando]

Wow; that is amazing! If you ever upload it to a server I would love to see it.

Whatever... Give me Lou Lampson's 8,000 photograph suitcase on wheels any day...

:D

[aeneas01]

Whatever... Give me Lou Lampson's 8,000 photograph suitcase on wheels any day...

:D

yeah, that exchange was priceless - rudy and helmets had me rolling!