Pete Rose 1983 Spring Training Jersey?

[hblakewolf]

Currently offered on Ebay is a "1983 Pete Rose Spring Training" gamer:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=110236994148&ssPageName=ADME:X:RTQ:US:1123

Authentic Pete Rose Spring Training Baseball Jersey





Nice Piece of Baseball History

Up for auction is an Authentic Pete Rose Spring Training Jersey. This was worn by Pete Rose during the Spring Training Games. This Jersey is a size 42 and was made by Wilson. The stitch on number 83 on the bottom is what shows it’s really worn from him. This was won at the Indiana Sports Charities auction.
So place a bid on this auction and then take a look at our other fantastic baseball auctions that you might be interested in!!!


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This shirt has a tremendous amount of issues, especially when compared with other know 1983 Phillies jerseys. When my concerns were noted to the seller, the following response was received:

Dear hblakewolf,

This was given to us personally by Ron Kittle. I trust it is authentic.

- auctionbayonline

Before delving into the problems with this jersey, I'd like to offer an opportunity for other Forum readers to take a stab at identifying the issues.

I've identified 6 major problems!

Have fun!

Howard Wolf
hblakewolf@patmedia.net

[Eric]

Problem number one as far as I'm concerned- namedropping Ron Kittle.

[Eric]

I don't know what the Phillies wore in spring training, but in '83 they definitely had names on the back, set tags and a 100 year patch on the left sleeve.

[Eric]

just saw a shot from spring training and they didn't wear the patch until the regular season

http://pro.corbis.com/popup/Enlargement.aspx?mediauids={4ae3e1cd-b5c0-4fd4-acd6-2665a4261e91}|{ffffffff-ffff-ffff-ffff-ffffffffffff}&qsPageNo=1&fdid=&Area=Search&TotalCount=30&CurrentPos=11&WinID={4ae3e1cd-b5c0-4fd4-acd6-2665a4261e91}

[both-teams-played-hard]

"ROSE" should be chain-stitched on a swatch. Right? White zipper issue?

Is there a problem with the lining on the collar and zipper path?

[zonker]

i'll guess? no name on back white zipper instead of bronze. the label, year tag set# and rose should be in sewm into collar not on tail and possible rose wore goodman jersey's in a larger size?

[karamaxjoe]

1. No Rose nameplate on back.
2. Wilson tag should be in front tail.
3. Wrong type of zipper.
4. The year tag should have a set with it.
5. Rose wore a size 44
6. Rose shoud be stitched into the collar.

What is Ron Kittle doing with this jersey anyway?

Mike

[33bird]

I believe Rose wore size 42 and size 44. Depending on the time period, his waistline, and the maker of the jersey. Am I right?
Greg

[Vintagedeputy]

Kittle played in 20 games with the '82 Sox and hit something like .240.

What are the chances that the White Sox played the Phillies in spring training in 1983 and an unknown rookie with a .240 BA was able to get a bp jersey from Pete Rose?

me thinks, the chances are not good.

[Eric]

I respectfully disagree-

Kittle was a rookie of the year. It's possible he held a charity event and asked teams to donate items and that's what he was given.

Could the Phillies have given some sort of 1983 salesman's sample?

We know from experience here on the forum, that many times star items were given to charity events by legit sources but never saw the field. I don't necessarily discount the story, but the evidence suggests it wasn't actually a gamer.

[both-teams-played-hard]

I respectfully disagree-

Kittle was a rookie of the year. It's possible he held a charity event and asked teams to donate items and that's what he was given.

Could the Phillies have given some sort of 1983 salesman's sample?

We know from experience here on the forum, that many times star items were given to charity events by legit sources but never saw the field. I don't necessarily discount the story, but the evidence suggests it wasn't actually a gamer.
Kittle has worked to obtain baseball items for charity.
Barry Bonds doesn't like sick children:
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2081489

[Vintagedeputy]

Then I guess the question is, did Kittle have an auction in the time frame in which the Phillies may have had an old Rose ST jersey laying around? I'm sure that there must be auction/purchase records if the jersey was bought in that manner.

[hblakewolf]

Forum Readers-

The Phillies item in question is neither a “spring training” jersey or a jersey that was ever worn on the back of Pete Rose for a single inning.

This particular Rose jersey is one of a number of Wilson salesman's samples that came out in 1983. The samples all had differences from team-issued jerseys, void of NOB with teams that used NOBs (such as here) and consistent chain-stitched "83" box tagging in the tail, but no NIC/NIT or set tagging, even if the team itself used it (a legit Phillies Rose game jersey would have a tail strip tag reading "83 1 or 83 2 (depending on set 1 or set 2). Likewise, ROSE should be embroidered in the collar.

When discussing this with uniform guru Dave Miedema, he mentioned that he has seen others including a Cubs home with 12 on the back, but no collar strip tag, and a Giants road with a number on the back, but NO NOB or tagging other than the boxed 83. According to Dave, he saw these at a card show and upon asking the seller for a history on them, was told they were obtained from a friend at Wilson.

Back in the mid 1980’s, I purchased a similar Rose jersey and also a 1983 Red Sox road with 8 on back. The Rose shirt and tagging was identical to the one currently on Ebay. The Red Sox had the Wilson tag in the collar, the 83 tag in the tail. Both were sold to me as 1983 Wilson salesman samples, and later sold by me as such.

Dave and I are both in agreement, that to the best of our knowledge, 1983 is the only year these year tagged samples were made, and they were limited to teams Wilson supplied at the time.

I’ve taken the liberty of providing a few photos of my 1983 game worn Pete Rose jersey. The differences as compared to the current sample:


Incorrect size 42. Rose wore size 44 with the Phillies.

Collar should have a black Swiss embroidered last name ROSE.

The Wilson tag should be in the tail, directly above the year/set tag, not in separated form in the collar.

The year tag should also have a set identifier next to it (1 or 2). The only exception to this with modern Wilson brand jerseys was in 1984, when several known gamers only have the year.

The left sleeve should have the Phillies 100th Anniversary patch.

The back of the jersey should have ROSE, maroon letters sewn on a white plate.11027

11028

11029


Thanks to Dave for his insight to this subject.

Howard Wolf
hblakewolf@patmedia.net

[Vintagedeputy]

Howard - outstanding work as always.....

Jim

[ironmanfan]

there are similar Ripken Jr. salesman sample jersey's from this time period floating around as well (orange alternate version with no NOB).

[zonker]

thank's howard and dave! great info. you got anymore? this was a great idea for a thread. we should have more of these "pop quiz hotshot" thread's in the educational section of the site. are all sample's created by a certain company seem to be put together the same. tagging placement etc..? gentlemen alway's thankful..........

[lon lewis]

Just for those still interested in how far the problem with the Wilson jerseys like the Phillies jersey discussed here went, Giants jerseys from their dugout stores and from McAdam Sporting Goods ( the people who did the Giants in-season lettering) were available with the 2 digit year tag on the tail and the Wilson tag in the collar at various times from 1983-85. McAdam also outfitted a few "over 30" baseball teams in the Bay Area during that time with Wilson jerseys that carried the Wilson tag in the collar and the 2 digit year tag in the tail. The teams that I was shown by Bob McAdam the store owner were the Giants, Padres, Tigers and Rangers. Complicatating matters even more, in 1986, a portion of the Giants blank extras were mistakingly shipped to the dugout stores warehouse and some wound up being placed on sale in a couple of locations. These jerseys were tagged in the standard method for balnk jerseys with the Wilson tag in the tail and the chainstitched 2 digit year tag below. It also should be noted that some of these Giants jerseys had the 1985 Wilson tags ( mainly in the larger sizes) instead of the newer Prestige tags. Fortunately, most of these jerseys were retuned to the clubhouse for on field use.

[commando]

Just for those still interested in how far the problem with the Wilson jerseys like the Phillies jersey discussed here went, Giants jerseys from their dugout stores and from McAdam Sporting Goods ( the people who did the Giants in-season lettering) were available with the 2 digit year tag on the tail and the Wilson tag in the collar at various times from 1983-85. McAdam also outfitted a few "over 30" baseball teams in the Bay Area during that time with Wilson jerseys that carried the Wilson tag in the collar and the 2 digit year tag in the tail. The teams that I was shown by Bob McAdam the store owner were the Giants, Padres, Tigers and Rangers. Complicatating matters even more, in 1986, a portion of the Giants blank extras were mistakingly shipped to the dugout stores warehouse and some wound up being placed on sale in a couple of locations. These jerseys were tagged in the standard method for balnk jerseys with the Wilson tag in the tail and the chainstitched 2 digit year tag below. It also should be noted that some of these Giants jerseys had the 1985 Wilson tags ( mainly in the larger sizes) instead of the newer Prestige tags. Fortunately, most of these jerseys were retuned to the clubhouse for on field use.

That's some hard-core historical jersey info right there... Holy cow!

[skipcareyisfat]

Just for those still interested in how far the problem with the Wilson jerseys like the Phillies jersey discussed here went, Giants jerseys from their dugout stores and from McAdam Sporting Goods ( the people who did the Giants in-season lettering) were available with the 2 digit year tag on the tail and the Wilson tag in the collar at various times from 1983-85. McAdam also outfitted a few "over 30" baseball teams in the Bay Area during that time with Wilson jerseys that carried the Wilson tag in the collar and the 2 digit year tag in the tail. The teams that I was shown by Bob McAdam the store owner were the Giants, Padres, Tigers and Rangers.

There's a Braves jersey on ebay now that appears to fit the description of the '83 uniforms mentioned above (NNOB, Wilson tag in the collar, "83" swatch in the tail). I think Grey Flannel also had one of these in its last auction, although they eventually pulled it because of the NNOB.

http://cgi.ebay.com/1983-Atlanta-Braves-Game-Used-Jersey-Dale-Murphy-Era_W0QQitemZ330224120751QQihZ014QQcategoryZ24887Q QssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem