Need opinions on this Chiefs jersey (Derrick Thomas)

[Blitzmaster]

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=220237809318&ssPageName=STRK:MEWA:IT&ih=012

I am not sure if this one is legit, but I am in need of a Thomas gamer for my 100+ sack collection. Any help would be appreiated. Thanks, Chris!!

[Jags Fan Dan]

I cannot comment on whether this is legit or not, but what strikes me is that the jersey being sold shows no real signs of use. I would expect a nice Thomas gamer to have some team repairs and show obvious signs of use.

[nyjetsfan14]

I have to concur. In my opinion this looks more like a team issue piece than game used. A DT gamer would exhibit extensive use. Have a great Memorial Day weekend.

God Bless America
Matthew

[byergo]

I'm selling this jersey. Hate to part with it, but raising money to buy a biz (local ice cream shop), so need extra cash. Otherwise would keep it forever.

The jersey does show signs of use, definately not game issued only. It has a couple small unrepaired tears, shows hit friction marks in the fabric, staining on the NOB, pulling on some stitching, tag wear, etc... Anyone who desires is free to view the jersey at my home in Columbia, Missouri anytime.

DT's game was speed rush, not bull rush so you won't see extreme use characteristics on his jerseys. All the game used pics of him from this era of jersey are similar in nature, and I've looked at hundreds of pics.

DT jerseys are very rare, do some research and see how many you come back with, and how many rookie era jerseys you come back with. Good luck on this if you are interested! IMHO you won't find a nicer one.

[Jags Fan Dan]

[quote=byergo;84720]
The jersey does show signs of use, definately not game issued only. It has a couple small unrepaired tears, shows hit friction marks in the fabric, staining on the NOB, pulling on some stitching, tag wear, etc... Anyone who desires is free to view the jersey at my home in Columbia, Missouri anytime.
[quote]
Byergo, please don't take this wrong, you are probably more knowledgeable than me and you have probably been collecting game used for longer than I have and this is just a suggestion: You need to get pics of the tears and other signs of use into your auction and describe the things you mentioned here in your auction description. Just trying to help!:)

[nyjetsfan14]

I'm selling this jersey. Hate to part with it, but raising money to buy a biz (local ice cream shop), so need extra cash. Otherwise would keep it forever.

The jersey does show signs of use, definately not game issued only. It has a couple small unrepaired tears, shows hit friction marks in the fabric, staining on the NOB, pulling on some stitching, tag wear, etc... Anyone who desires is free to view the jersey at my home in Columbia, Missouri anytime.

DT's game was speed rush, not bull rush so you won't see extreme use characteristics on his jerseys. All the game used pics of him from this era of jersey are similar in nature, and I've looked at hundreds of pics.

DT jerseys are very rare, do some research and see how many you come back with, and how many rookie era jerseys you come back with. Good luck on this if you are interested! IMHO you won't find a nicer one.

Class reply and offer. I wish you the best in your sale and hope it gets you a great price. You might want to consider revising the listing to better/fully describe the use/wear your jersey exhibits. Again, thanks for taking the time to respond and best of luck!

[byergo]

Those are good suggestions, but I can't alter the auction after it has a bid. Feel free to ask me a question about it's signs of use via EBAY, and I'll answer the question and tie it to the auction.

Thanks!

[byergo]

Forgot to add, if your a DT/Chiefs fan check out my other auctions. I'm also selling a legit full size Chiefs helmet autographed by DT personally when he visited MIZZOU's basketball stadium in the mid 1990's (event poster included).

DT was a really nice guy with a great personality and a smile that would light up the room. An uplifting guy to be around, and he did a lot of great charity work (some publicly and much more privately) that helped a great number of people. It's such a shame he passed away at such a young age.

And also selling a Christian Okoye autographed wire photo signed in person last year as well. The "Nigerian Nightmare" is still a monstrous sized stud! Absolutely huge for a RB.

[Peterson28]

I'm selling this jersey. Hate to part with it, but raising money to buy a biz (local ice cream shop), so need extra cash. Otherwise would keep it forever.

The jersey does show signs of use, definately not game issued only. It has a couple small unrepaired tears, shows hit friction marks in the fabric, staining on the NOB, pulling on some stitching, tag wear, etc... Anyone who desires is free to view the jersey at my home in Columbia, Missouri anytime.

DT's game was speed rush, not bull rush so you won't see extreme use characteristics on his jerseys. All the game used pics of him from this era of jersey are similar in nature, and I've looked at hundreds of pics.

DT jerseys are very rare, do some research and see how many you come back with, and how many rookie era jerseys you come back with. Good luck on this if you are interested! IMHO you won't find a nicer one.

Not to sound negative, but the sleeves on this jersey are wrong for the style Derrick used. As can be seen in the 3 pictures of DT in your listing, he wore the tight elastic band sleeves which have the sleeve stripe colors dyed right into the fabric. The sleeves on your jersey are loose open sleeves with printed stripes

[ndevlin]

Class reply and offer. I wish you the best in your sale and hope it gets you a great price. You might want to consider revising the listing to better/fully describe the use/wear your jersey exhibits. Again, thanks for taking the time to respond and best of luck!


Ahhh, I would agree! Most people would get their panties in a bunch and reply back in rage after questioning one of their auctions. Instead, he replies and answers questions about his auction in a calm and mature manner.

[Jags Fan Dan]

Not to sound negative, but the sleeves on this jersey are wrong for the style Derrick used. As can be seen in the 3 pictures of DT in your listing, he wore the tight elastic band sleeves which have the sleeve stripe colors dyed right into the fabric. The sleeves on your jersey are loose open sleeves with printed stripes
I was actually initially looking at the sleeves, too. I thought they looked different in the photos of him wearing the jersey vs. the jersey, but I wrote it off to the fact that here is a big, muscular guy wearing a size 42 jersey.

[byergo]

Peterson28 (http://www.gameuseduniverse.com/vb_forum/member.php?u=2341), no offense but you are incorrect about the sleeves. They are tighter in the sleeve than they appear in the pics on a hanger, especially with the large shoulder pads on underneath stretching them tighter against the arm, DT had a small waist but a huge upper body and very muscular arms.

Additionally the painted stripes of color around the end of the sleeve are correct for KC Chiefs gamers. They are not died into the fabric, which is already a bright fire engine red dazzle cloth material and wouldn't accept such a die even if you tried. All the numbers on the jersey obverse/reverse and sleeves are also correctly painted on in this manner, but for the NOB which is tackle twill, which is also correct.

Hope that clarification helps.

[CollectGU]

I ahve to agree with Peterson, the sleeves in the photos also look to be the elasticized/cuffed version as well with the colors dyed into the fabric not at all like the jersey you are selling, and I am not understanding how large shoulderpads stretch the sleeves tighter to the arm as you stated? I just think they are different sleeves

Regards,
Dave

[CollectGU]

Also, is it possible to post some pictures here of the hit marks and tears on the jersey? I think it will help those from the forum interested in bidding....

Regards,
Dave

[aeneas01]

although i know almost nothing about jerseys, imo this garb has some problems. for one it's advertised as a dt "rookie era" jersey".

"This is the rookie era, early career, coveted red home jersey of the greatest KC Chief of All Time, Derrick Thomas."

"Authentic game used DT jerseys are extremely rare, and seldom hit the hobby. Check out this link to an inferior DT game worn jersey (link) with a distracting personalized autograph, not a rookie era jersey, not a home jersey (the home red is FAR more sought after), which brought $1,835 plus 20% auction house juice (total: $2,202)."

"The photos in this auction are a style match for DT wearing this type of jersey, and the original newspaper wire photo (B&W) of Derrick setting the All Time Sack Record (7 sacks VS Seattle at home in 1990) is included. This may be the very jersey DT wore to set this record (note the placement of the Wilson "W" on his left sleeve and the Wilson tag on the bottom right of this jersey as well)."

the problem is teams didn't begin wearing nfl shields at the collar of their jerseys until 1991 - derrick thomas's rookie year was 1989. so, at best, the listed jersey is from dt's third year, not rookie year or "rookie era".

further, the ad states that the listed jersey could "be the very jersey" dt wore when he set the sack record in 1990 - again, dt didn't wear a jersey with an nfl shield at the collar in 1990 so it couldn't be the jersey he wore when he set the record.

i also find the seller's explanation regarding the lack of hit marks a reach - derrick thomas was an nfl linebacker, period. he was also one of the best and most physical nfl linebackers to have ever played the game. as such, his jerseys should reflect this - and do.

and, of course, the sleeves are not the same...

jmo.



http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y238/aeneas1/sub/dt.jpg

[byergo]

Can you not clearly see from the provided images that: 1. The colors on the sleeve (white and gold) are an EXACT color match to the rest of the jersey because it is in fact the exact same paint (not a different type of material which would be nearly impossible to perfectly match a died dull fabric color to a slick painted on color), and 2. if it were an elastic material it would fit tighter (IE--there wouldn't be a gap as shown in the bottom pic) and it would appear much thicker as well (not paper thin like the painted on dazzle cloth material which is correct)?

I've seen how these things can turn south so I'll stop commenting now. I just wanted to point out some innacuracies in a polite manner, and again welcome anyone who desires to view the jersey in person.

I'll leave you with: do your own homework and bid if you are confident in the jersey (as I was after I conducted my own research). The jersey may or may not be in one of the attached images, but there is in my opinion a very strong style match which is why I posted the images for comparison purposes.

Have a great and safe holiday weekend!

[CollectGU]

Can you not clearly see from the provided images that: 1. The colors on the sleeve (white and gold) are an EXACT color match to the rest of the jersey because it is in fact the exact same paint (not a different type of material which would be nearly impossible to perfectly match a died dull fabric color to a slick painted on color), and 2. if it were an elastic material it would fit tighter (IE--there wouldn't be a gap as shown in the bottom pic) and it would appear much thicker as well (not paper thin like the painted on dazzle cloth material which is correct)?



You've never seen elasticized/cuffed sleeves? Here is an Andre Rison with ribbed/elasticized/ cuffed (wahtever you want to cal it) sleeves. That is what we are talking about, and what Thomas appears to be wearing in the photos:
http://www.americanmemorabilia.com/pics/35371_01_lg.jpg

[aeneas01]

byergo - first let me just say that i think you've done a great job fielding questions without becoming defensive and, because of it, i don't think this topic has begun to turn south as you mentioned.

with that said, i' not sure i understand your following comment:

"2. if it were an elastic material it would fit tighter (IE--there wouldn't be a gap as shown in the bottom pic) and it would appear much thicker as well (not paper thin like the painted on dazzle cloth material which is correct)?"

although you doubt that the sleeve contains elastic material at the striping area, the photo you included in your ad shows just that. are you saying that this photo doesn't appear to have elastic at the striping area - that it appears to match your jersey?


http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y238/aeneas1/sub/dt2.jpg

[byergo]

This will be my final comment on this thread since you asked a reasonable and direct question which I don't want to give the appearance of avoiding but I'll not revisit the thread. Thanks in advance, and I'm sure you understand my position on that.

The pics you are showing to me (in my opinion) very obviously demonstrate that like I said there is no elastic present.

The Rison jersey has elastic, and you can see the minor color difference, they jersey looks pulled/bunched by the elastic, and the elastic bands are the same width. The Thomas jersey doesn't have the same bunchy/pulled look, the bands are not the exact same dimension, the colors are EXACTLY the same with no minor color difference because it is in fact the same painted surface with the same color paint from the same batch.

I should have called this an early career representation rather than rookie era, but I think you get my point. It's very early career and rare. The older the better as it's more likely that it predates the era in which players wore so many jerseys intentionally for resale purposes.

And I see you found a pic that represents more hit marks on the shirt, but I can also post a bunch of them that don't, but I'm not looking for a pissing match and we all know big stars wear numerous jerseys in their career and they are not all exactly the same so it is what it is. Some have more wear, which is wonderful, and some have game use but not hammered with use.

Anyway, I'm not the collecting God or anything so feel the way you want to feel, research however you please, and buy what makes you happy. It doesn't bother me that much that you don't like it, or don't agree or whatever, just wanted to have the other opinion advanced as well.

Take care and have a great holiday!

[Jags Fan Dan]

I commend everyone for keeping this thread lively yet amicable. I'm not trying to fan a fire or anything, but I second the notion that any pics that could be posted of the use that the jersey exhibits, even if it is minor tearing or scuffing or whatever, would greatly help the cause, which is selling the jersey for the most money possible so you can buy your business. And I wish you the very best of luck in that!

[aeneas01]

The pics you are showing to me (in my opinion) very obviously demonstrate that like I said there is no elastic present.

fair enough as far as i'm concerned - as i mentioned, i'm not a jersey guy so i was just going by what it looked like to me. as far as you stating that it's a "rookie era" jersey is concerned, frankly i don't know what "rookie era" means. i've never heard of an item that was from a player's second or third season referred to as a "rookie era" item. early career item, yes, "rookie era" no.

whatever the case, given that your jersey has an nfl shield at the collar it simply couldn't be from his record sack game against seattle (1990) that you mention in your listing nor could it be from his rookie season (1989) given that the shield wasn't introduced until 1991. as such, i think that claiming it's a "rookie era" gamer or that it "very well" may have been the jersey worn in 1990 reflects very poorly. jmho.

[G1X]

I have no opinion about the particular jersey in question, but I would like to make a couple of general statements with regards to several issues raised in this thread.

1. Robert is correct in stating that the NFL neck shields were first added in 1991. However, keep in mind that it was common for NFL teams to "recycle" jerseys in that era (and some still do). For example, a jersey from 1989 or 1990 could have been "recycled" for the 1991 season. Teams simply added the shield to the "recycled" jerseys. Very few teams were using year tags at the time, so if there was no distinctive uniform design change made by the team and/or changes in a particular manufacturer's style over the course of several years, (such as placement of the manufacturer's logo, tagging, etc.), trying to figure out which year a jersey was actually used can be problematic unless solid photo evidence or other conclusive documentation can be found. In collecting NFL jerseys, something as simple as trying to determine the year(s) a jersey was worn can get quite complicated!

2. A general misunderstanding about older football jerseys is the belief that they generally should show great game use, especially since teams tended to not have as many jerseys available for players as they do in the current era, and the fact that jerseys were often "recycled" for use in more than one season. These jerseys were designed and cut much differently than the current-era jerseys and were generally not worn near as tight, so they tended to be more durable and have a longer lifespan. Naturally, many older jerseys will show great game use, but at the same time, it is not uncommon to find older jerseys that were worn for an entire season that show only minor signs of use and sometimes nothing more than repeated wash wear.

I hope that this information is useful.

Mark Hayne
Gridiron Exchange
gixc@verizon.net

[aeneas01]

I have no opinion about the particular jersey in question, but I would like to make a couple of general statements with regards to several issues raised in this thread.

nice post mark and i agree that, like football helmets, it's often not cut and dry given the re-use of items and the varying degrees wear. but even with jerseys i believe that it's possible to rule out certain claims based on esoteric details. with football helmets the disqualification factor could be the helmet's manufacturing date for example.

in this case it's clear that teams did not begin sporting nfl shield patches on their jersey collars and pants until 1991. nothing ambiguous about this and the seller is fully aware that this is the case. yet in his ad the seller clearly implies that his jersey is from thomas's rookie season (1989) and could have very well been the jersey thomas was wearing in 1990 when he broke the sack record.

so sleeve issues and game wear aside issues, i believe the item description to be highly misleading and, even worse, intentionally misleading...



...

[Jags Fan Dan]

Robert,

I think what Mark was trying to say is that there is the possibility that the NFL shield was added to the jersey, making it impossible to tell when the jersey was first put into use.

[aeneas01]

Robert,

I think what Mark was trying to say is that there is the possibility that the NFL shield was added to the jersey, making it impossible to tell when the jersey was first put into use.

gotcha - i didn't realize players wore the same jersey for 3+ years...

[Blitzmaster]

http://akamai.edeal.com/images/catalog4021/folder55867/img6449492.jpg 2004 jersey with a 2007 Captain's patch...

[nyjetsfan14]

http://akamai.edeal.com/images/catalog4021/folder55867/img6449492.jpg 2004 jersey with a 2007 Captain's patch...

Great example Blitzmaster. However, just for clarification, sometimes these jerseys are not actually used the entire duration but rather go unused laying around (or more likely organized/shelved/boxed) until put into action when required. So you could quite possibly have an 04 tagged jersey being used in 07 as you have shown with 07 actually being the first season it was used. Of course you have other instances in which a jersey is actually used repeatedly/recycled. Great info guys!

[G1X]

Robert,

A player normally would not wear the same jersey exclusively for three years. "Recycling" a jersey does not mean that it was worn year after year, it simply means that the jersey was available for use beyond the original year that it was issued. When a jersey is "recycled", it can sometimes be very difficult to tie down the exact year(s) it was worn.

As an example, I will use a team and jersey that I am familiar with - a Detroit Lions jersey of Patrick Swilling. He was a Lion only in 1993 and 1994. The Lions used Wilson in 1993 and once again for the early part of 1994 before switching to APEX. For those early 1994 games, the Lions used the Wilson jerseys they already had on hand in the equipment room from previous years and simply added the NFL 75th Anniversary patch and removed/hid the Wilson "W" sleeve logo since the team was under contract with APEX.

The Swilling jersey is made by Wilson, shows game wear, and contains the NFL 75th Anniversary patch. There is also evidence that the Lions 60th Anniversary patch from 1993 had been removed. How will I ever know for certain which year it was worn if I am unable to find definite photo evidence or other documentation? Was it worn both years by Swilling? Was it worn only in one of those years by Swilling? Or, worse case scenario, was it worn by another player in 1992 and used simply as a backup jersey for Swilling in 1993 and 1994?

This example is not an anomaly, especially with regards to older NFL jerseys. As can be seen, trying to pin things down - even when it appears to be the obvious - can be quite elusive.

Mark Hayne
Gridiron Exchange
gixc@verizon.net

[nyjetsfan14]

The Swilling jersey is made by Wilson, shows game wear, and contains the NFL 75th Anniversary patch. There is also evidence that the Lions 60th Anniversary patch from 1993 had been removed. How will I ever know for certain which year it was worn if I am unable to find definite photo evidence or other documentation? Was it worn both years by Swilling? Was it worn only in one of those years by Swilling? Or, worse case scenario, was it worn by another player in 1992 and used simply as a backup jersey for Swilling in 1993 and 1994?

As usual Mark, awesome info, you are the football jersey man. My opinion on that is that, for a player like Swilling, wear/use exhibited would really assist in determining how long the jersey was worn. If it shows minimal to moderate use that would to me indicate just partial season use, as you explained before the full switch over to APEX. If it was hammered with use and numerous team repairs than I would suspect it was a carryover from the previous season. But either way I think we have clearly pointed out that a recycyled jersey does not necessarily mean one that is used/worn continually each season from its tagged year. Good stuff guys, happy Memorial Day and God Bless America!