I always knew that the Mets management was dumb

[Vintagedeputy]

Firing Willie Randolph proves it.

[allstarsplus]

Re: I always knew that the Mets management was dumb

Management should have fired him after the 2007 season ended based on one of the most embarrassing collapses in baseball history, but I guess they thought they could turn it around in 2008.

This is an excerpt from ESPN:

The Mets and their fans were convinced 2007 would be their year. Poised for a big run, what followed was one of the biggest collapses in baseball history: Leading the NL East by seven games on Sept. 12, they lost 12 of their last 17 and missed the playoffs as Philadelphia rallied to win the division title.

Then this "classic" comment by Willie in early 2008:

"Is it racial?" Randolph was quoted. "Huh? It smells a little bit. ... I don't know how to put my finger on it, but I think there's something there."

In my humble opinion, Willie was treated better than so many other coaches who would have been fired given the same 2007 type of collapse. My personal favorite was when Jim Riggleman led the Cubs 1998 team to the playoffs and then had an injury riddled pitching staff in 1999 and was abruptly fired. After Riggleman got fired 9 years ago he hasn't been rehired as a big league manager.

I am sure there are other examples, but come on Willie and make yourself accountable and get real with your lack of success.

[Vintagedeputy]

Re: I always knew that the Mets management was dumb

I cant blame the 07 collapse on Willie. He led the team to its leading position all that year. The team failed Randolph at the end, not the other way around. You cant blame him for 25 guys not producing. He can scream, yell, motivate, console and counsel his players all day long, but its hard to make 25 horses drink.

I think some smart team will snap him up.

[allstarsplus]

Re: I always knew that the Mets management was dumb

Jim - You are correct that some of the players didn't do their jobs in 2007 and this year too, but ultimately they can't fire the whole team.

Omar Minaya makes some key 2008 acquisitions in getting the top pitcher in Johan Santana and gets Ryan Church and Brian Schneider and runs the payroll up to almost $140 million which is tops in the NL and you would think that would get them back to where you would expect them to be.

Well Willie ends his 2008 tenure with a losing record.

It will usually be the coach (or coaches) or the GM's fault (as in Seattle this week with Bill Bavasi ) and Omar Minaya is thought of as one of the best GM's so it ended up not only Willie but also pitching coach Rick Peterson and first base coach Tom Nieto.

Like you said, Willie will probably have a new Manager job soon, do you think anyone will be quick to hire Bill Bavasi?

[TNTtoys]

Re: I always knew that the Mets management was dumb

I cant blame the 07 collapse on Willie. He led the team to its leading position all that year. The team failed Randolph at the end, not the other way around. You cant blame him for 25 guys not producing. He can scream, yell, motivate, console and counsel his players all day long, but its hard to make 25 horses drink.

I think some smart team will snap him up.

I think you're wrong here. Sure the players were not delivering in the end, but Willie (as the manager of the team) did very little to right the ship. He didn't "scream, yell, motivate and console" his players. The team had their occasional "meeting" but this was only after it was brought to the attention by the media that nothing was getting done (for example, this year, following Billy Wagner's outburst).

We watched the team commit fundamental errors and make poor judgment on the bases and in the field repeatedly. They made the mistakes over and over again to the point that the fans were nauseated (i.e. down the stretch, why did 3 different players try to steal 3rd base with 2 outs in close games? Wright was at bat in 2 of these circumstances, when a single would have tied the game or put the Mets ahead in every case. The Mets went on to lose 2 of these games as well.). A manager would take action to correct this. A manager would provide the discipline to his team. I didn't see any of this.

Let's face it - as a summary of Willie's tenure... with the quality players and high payroll they had... the team got off to a good start in 2006 and then played .500 ball until the end. They got off to another good start last year and then played sub-.500 ball to the end. They got off to a mediocre start this year and have been mediocre until now. It just seems like the players had no motivation. I remember a Delgado interview from last season where he told the reporter that the team can "turn it on when they want to" -- hence, it is acceptable to play at this mediocre level because they will the important games down the stretch. Well, guess what...they didn't. Why dig yourself your a hole that you don't have a 100% guarantee to get out of in the first place? If I were Willie, I would have put my foot down in the clubhouse. I wouldn't stand for this attitude.

As far as Peterson going, I think this is a good move as well. The pitching (maily the bullpen) failed us at the end of last season. The pitching has failed us many times over this year. Should the pitching coach take some of the heat for this? I think so.

And for Manuel taking over... I don't see this as a brilliant move, but it's perhaps the only move right now. He is interim manager, right? Hopefully they will find the right guy to replace him, and quickly. If he stays for a long period of time, it will be just like having Willie again. Soft spoken, calm guy. Not the motivator the team needs now. Not to mention Manuel is who Willie received half of his advice from anyway.

[metsbats]

Re: I always knew that the Mets management was dumb

Peterson gone is well overdue. He was the genius who said he can fix Zambrano's mechanics in 10 minutes and urge them to trade Kamir for him. One of the worst trades in Met's recent history up there with Ryan for Fregosi.

I think they should bring Davey Johnson back.

-David

[suave1477]

Re: I always knew that the Mets management was dumb

They need Bobby Valentine or Buck Showalter lol lol

Hey if you guys are interested ill give you Girardi he has caused us quite a few games this year.

What a dissapointment he has been.

[Vintagedeputy]

Re: I always knew that the Mets management was dumb

A manager would take action to correct this. A manager would provide the discipline to his team. I didn't see any of this.

Just because we didnt personally witness any discipline behind the closed clubhouse doors, doesnt mean that there wasnt any discipline handed out.

This year, I was an assisant coach to my son's little league team. We practiced constantly and the kids lost darn near every game. It wasnt the coach's fault. Now that is an extreme example I know, but now we're talking about million dollar ballplayers paid to play a kid's game. Do your job and win.

I still say Willie got a bum rap.

[TNTtoys]

Re: I always knew that the Mets management was dumb

To all of you who still think Willie got a bum rap...

Please answer me this question --

You're the manager of the team. Your primadonna 10-million-dollar-a-year first baseman comes to you and tells you how overwhelmed he is and needs "a few days off to clear his head."

Do you:

A) Give him this time off at the detriment of your team

B) Tell him that he is a grown man with an important job to do and that there are NO primadonnas in your clubhouse... and that he'd better get his a$$ out there and play or he will be fined.

That's the difference between a strong manager and a weak one.

[gingi79]

Re: I always knew that the Mets management was dumb

Omar Minaya is thought of as one of the best GM's

I follow baseball pretty closely and as an avid Mets hater and a huge Braves fan you can take my comments with a grain of salt.

Minaya went out and wasted millions of dollars on a has-been first baseman who has done nothing but choke for them. The he followed up this mistake by overpaying his centerfielder because he once had a miraculous Post-Season with the Astros. I think he also dropped the ball keeping Luis Castillo as his second baseman when Jose Valentin was a much better producer for them and while he is at the end of his career, this club could use some veteran leadership as Moises Alou is obviously as done as Mike Hampton.
In fact when you take away Jose Reyes and David Wright who were in the system and therefore not acquired by him, I'd argue Omar is much like his club when it comes to his building of this team, just south of .500 with no great future ahead.

Willie however should be kept for what he did. He took an overachieving bunch of guys and convinced them they could be winners. They fell apart last season because of a case of self-fulfilling prophecy. It's like a virus and could not be stopped. I don't think last year affected this year in any way, they are simply playing much better Marlins, Braves and Phillies teams and they didn't overachieve like they did last year. $140 Million or not, this is a .500 team.

I think they sacked the wrong guy but what do I know, I root for the Braves but live on Long Island!

[gingi79]

Re: I always knew that the Mets management was dumb

To all of you who still think Willie got a bum rap...

Please answer me this question --

You're the manager of the team. Your primadonna 10-million-dollar-a-year first baseman comes to you and tells you how overwhelmed he is and needs "a few days off to clear his head."

Do you:

A) Give him this time off at the detriment of your team

B) Tell him that he is a grown man with an important job to do and that there are NO primadonnas in your clubhouse... and that he'd better get his a$$ out there and play or he will be fined.

That's the difference between a strong manager and a weak one.

I'd argue the Mets are a much better team without Carlos Delgado. He is overpaid, he does choke and he is a primadonna. He does not make this team better. Therefore, put me down for option (a)

Although I loved the fact he refused the curtain call, at home, against the hated Atlanta Braves when he hit the two home runs this season. He was tired of being booed and refused to "tip his cap" to the people he felt were "fair weather fans." Playing devils advocate this is New York. We boo A-Rod when he slumps. You make $10 million dollars a season playing a child's game. If he was a rookie, he'd be back in AAA but he's an overpaid seasoned veteran who (like much of the Mets) was once an All Star. You finally don't suck for one game and they cheered......get off you a$$ and say "hello"

[allstarsplus]

Re: I always knew that the Mets management was dumb

I follow baseball pretty closely and as an avid Mets hater and a huge Braves fan you can take my comments with a grain of salt.

I was watching a story on biggest GM screwups like Mike Hampton and Kevin Brown and others (they named so many) and I look at it as there are so many factors such as injuries, bad timing, bad team fit, and just plain overrated players to start with.

Some may consider ARod a bad signing based on how much money it cost.

I am starting to believe in this whole build the team from the farm system style, but as a fan we all want to get that "Johan Santana" type of signing.

On a side note, Omar Minaya was rated last year by Forbes as the #2 best GM in the MLB only trailing Billy Beane of the Oakland A's. #3 was Theo Epstein.

http://www.forbes.com/business/2007/03/02/sports-greatest-gms-biz-cz_jg_0302gms_2.html

[Metsfan808]

Re: I always knew that the Mets management was dumb

I follow baseball pretty closely and as an avid Mets hater and a huge Braves fan you can take my comments with a grain of salt.

Minaya went out and wasted millions of dollars on a has-been first baseman who has done nothing but choke for them. The he followed up this mistake by overpaying his centerfielder because he once had a miraculous Post-Season with the Astros. I think he also dropped the ball keeping Luis Castillo as his second baseman when Jose Valentin was a much better producer for them and while he is at the end of his career, this club could use some veteran leadership as Moises Alou is obviously as done as Mike Hampton.
In fact when you take away Jose Reyes and David Wright who were in the system and therefore not acquired by him, I'd argue Omar is much like his club when it comes to his building of this team, just south of .500 with no great future ahead.

Willie however should be kept for what he did. He took an overachieving bunch of guys and convinced them they could be winners. They fell apart last season because of a case of self-fulfilling prophecy. It's like a virus and could not be stopped. I don't think last year affected this year in any way, they are simply playing much better Marlins, Braves and Phillies teams and they didn't overachieve like they did last year. $140 Million or not, this is a .500 team.

I think they sacked the wrong guy but what do I know, I root for the Braves but live on Long Island!

For someone who follows baseball closely you don't know much about the Mets, Mets hater or not.

1. Omar did not sign Delgado he traded for him after the 2005 season ended.
2. Omar did not overpay his centerfielder as a result of Delgado choking. Beltran was signed before the Marlins ever signed Delgado and ONE year before Omar traded for Delgado.
3. Delgado began to choke in 2007. He had a very productive 2006 season for the Mets.
4. He dropped the ball in signing Castillo?? So he should have kept Valentin who blew out his knee in 2007 making the Castillo trade necessary? Valentin has not been able to get on a major league field yet because of his injuries. While Castillo has gimpy knees and should not have been signed for 4 years he has been almost as productive as he has ever been. He is playing up to his career averages for the most part. The problem with that contract is not this year and maybe not even next year it will be the last 2 years and thankfully the Mets could write him a check and ask him to leave at 3 am just like they did with Willie Randolph.

The only thing you got right was that Alou is as fragile as Hampton. I hope you keep up with the Braves better than you do with the Mets but what do I know I'm a Mets fan living on Long Island.

[camarokids]

Re: I always knew that the Mets management was dumb

For someone who follows baseball closely you don't know much about the Mets, Mets hater or not.

1. Omar did not sign Delgado he traded for him after the 2005 season ended.

Wouldn't you still have to have a player "sign" even after being traded to your team . The player would still have to sign a contract, right ?

[TNTtoys]

Re: I always knew that the Mets management was dumb

On a side note, Omar Minaya was rated last year by Forbes as the #2 best GM in the MLB only trailing Billy Beane of the Oakland A's. #3 was Theo Epstein.

Minaya is regarded as a top GM, but strategically, he has failed with the Mets. His plan was to "mortgage the future to win now" -- the trouble is, he didn't win (2006 and 2007), and this is the first year the Mets will start to feel the pain. They do not have the future stars that were traded away in order to build the winner... Scott Kazmir, Mike Jacobs, etc. Instead, they have an aging Carlos Delgado, Luis Castillo, Pedro Martinez, Moises Alou, Orlando Hernandez, etc.
Don't get me wrong here... I do think Willie should have been fired for his own failures as Mets manager, but he is not the sole culprit. Our GM didn't exactly equip him with a winner for years to come.