I always knew that the Mets management was dumb

[Vintagedeputy]

Firing Willie Randolph proves it.

[allstarsplus]

Management should have fired him after the 2007 season ended based on one of the most embarrassing collapses in baseball history, but I guess they thought they could turn it around in 2008.

This is an excerpt from ESPN:

The Mets and their fans were convinced 2007 would be their year. Poised for a big run, what followed was one of the biggest collapses in baseball history: Leading the NL East by seven games on Sept. 12, they lost 12 of their last 17 and missed the playoffs as Philadelphia rallied to win the division title.

Then this "classic" comment by Willie in early 2008:

"Is it racial?" Randolph was quoted. "Huh? It smells a little bit. ... I don't know how to put my finger on it, but I think there's something there."

In my humble opinion, Willie was treated better than so many other coaches who would have been fired given the same 2007 type of collapse. My personal favorite was when Jim Riggleman led the Cubs 1998 team to the playoffs and then had an injury riddled pitching staff in 1999 and was abruptly fired. After Riggleman got fired 9 years ago he hasn't been rehired as a big league manager.

I am sure there are other examples, but come on Willie and make yourself accountable and get real with your lack of success.

[Vintagedeputy]

I cant blame the 07 collapse on Willie. He led the team to its leading position all that year. The team failed Randolph at the end, not the other way around. You cant blame him for 25 guys not producing. He can scream, yell, motivate, console and counsel his players all day long, but its hard to make 25 horses drink.

I think some smart team will snap him up.

[allstarsplus]

Jim - You are correct that some of the players didn't do their jobs in 2007 and this year too, but ultimately they can't fire the whole team.

Omar Minaya makes some key 2008 acquisitions in getting the top pitcher in Johan Santana and gets Ryan Church and Brian Schneider and runs the payroll up to almost $140 million which is tops in the NL and you would think that would get them back to where you would expect them to be.

Well Willie ends his 2008 tenure with a losing record.

It will usually be the coach (or coaches) or the GM's fault (as in Seattle this week with Bill Bavasi ) and Omar Minaya is thought of as one of the best GM's so it ended up not only Willie but also pitching coach Rick Peterson and first base coach Tom Nieto.

Like you said, Willie will probably have a new Manager job soon, do you think anyone will be quick to hire Bill Bavasi?

[TNTtoys]

I cant blame the 07 collapse on Willie. He led the team to its leading position all that year. The team failed Randolph at the end, not the other way around. You cant blame him for 25 guys not producing. He can scream, yell, motivate, console and counsel his players all day long, but its hard to make 25 horses drink.

I think some smart team will snap him up.
I think you're wrong here. Sure the players were not delivering in the end, but Willie (as the manager of the team) did very little to right the ship. He didn't "scream, yell, motivate and console" his players. The team had their occasional "meeting" but this was only after it was brought to the attention by the media that nothing was getting done (for example, this year, following Billy Wagner's outburst).

We watched the team commit fundamental errors and make poor judgment on the bases and in the field repeatedly. They made the mistakes over and over again to the point that the fans were nauseated (i.e. down the stretch, why did 3 different players try to steal 3rd base with 2 outs in close games? Wright was at bat in 2 of these circumstances, when a single would have tied the game or put the Mets ahead in every case. The Mets went on to lose 2 of these games as well.). A manager would take action to correct this. A manager would provide the discipline to his team. I didn't see any of this.

Let's face it - as a summary of Willie's tenure... with the quality players and high payroll they had... the team got off to a good start in 2006 and then played .500 ball until the end. They got off to another good start last year and then played sub-.500 ball to the end. They got off to a mediocre start this year and have been mediocre until now. It just seems like the players had no motivation. I remember a Delgado interview from last season where he told the reporter that the team can "turn it on when they want to" -- hence, it is acceptable to play at this mediocre level because they will the important games down the stretch. Well, guess what...they didn't. Why dig yourself your a hole that you don't have a 100% guarantee to get out of in the first place? If I were Willie, I would have put my foot down in the clubhouse. I wouldn't stand for this attitude.

As far as Peterson going, I think this is a good move as well. The pitching (maily the bullpen) failed us at the end of last season. The pitching has failed us many times over this year. Should the pitching coach take some of the heat for this? I think so.

And for Manuel taking over... I don't see this as a brilliant move, but it's perhaps the only move right now. He is interim manager, right? Hopefully they will find the right guy to replace him, and quickly. If he stays for a long period of time, it will be just like having Willie again. Soft spoken, calm guy. Not the motivator the team needs now. Not to mention Manuel is who Willie received half of his advice from anyway.

[metsbats]

Peterson gone is well overdue. He was the genius who said he can fix Zambrano's mechanics in 10 minutes and urge them to trade Kamir for him. One of the worst trades in Met's recent history up there with Ryan for Fregosi.

I think they should bring Davey Johnson back.

-David

[suave1477]

They need Bobby Valentine or Buck Showalter lol lol

Hey if you guys are interested ill give you Girardi he has caused us quite a few games this year.

What a dissapointment he has been.

[Vintagedeputy]

A manager would take action to correct this. A manager would provide the discipline to his team. I didn't see any of this.



Just because we didnt personally witness any discipline behind the closed clubhouse doors, doesnt mean that there wasnt any discipline handed out.

This year, I was an assisant coach to my son's little league team. We practiced constantly and the kids lost darn near every game. It wasnt the coach's fault. Now that is an extreme example I know, but now we're talking about million dollar ballplayers paid to play a kid's game. Do your job and win.

I still say Willie got a bum rap.

[TNTtoys]

To all of you who still think Willie got a bum rap...

Please answer me this question --

You're the manager of the team. Your primadonna 10-million-dollar-a-year first baseman comes to you and tells you how overwhelmed he is and needs "a few days off to clear his head."

Do you:

A) Give him this time off at the detriment of your team

B) Tell him that he is a grown man with an important job to do and that there are NO primadonnas in your clubhouse... and that he'd better get his a$$ out there and play or he will be fined.

That's the difference between a strong manager and a weak one.

[gingi79]

Omar Minaya is thought of as one of the best GM's

I follow baseball pretty closely and as an avid Mets hater and a huge Braves fan you can take my comments with a grain of salt.

Minaya went out and wasted millions of dollars on a has-been first baseman who has done nothing but choke for them. The he followed up this mistake by overpaying his centerfielder because he once had a miraculous Post-Season with the Astros. I think he also dropped the ball keeping Luis Castillo as his second baseman when Jose Valentin was a much better producer for them and while he is at the end of his career, this club could use some veteran leadership as Moises Alou is obviously as done as Mike Hampton.
In fact when you take away Jose Reyes and David Wright who were in the system and therefore not acquired by him, I'd argue Omar is much like his club when it comes to his building of this team, just south of .500 with no great future ahead.

Willie however should be kept for what he did. He took an overachieving bunch of guys and convinced them they could be winners. They fell apart last season because of a case of self-fulfilling prophecy. It's like a virus and could not be stopped. I don't think last year affected this year in any way, they are simply playing much better Marlins, Braves and Phillies teams and they didn't overachieve like they did last year. $140 Million or not, this is a .500 team.

I think they sacked the wrong guy but what do I know, I root for the Braves but live on Long Island! :D

[gingi79]

To all of you who still think Willie got a bum rap...

Please answer me this question --

You're the manager of the team. Your primadonna 10-million-dollar-a-year first baseman comes to you and tells you how overwhelmed he is and needs "a few days off to clear his head."

Do you:

A) Give him this time off at the detriment of your team

B) Tell him that he is a grown man with an important job to do and that there are NO primadonnas in your clubhouse... and that he'd better get his a$$ out there and play or he will be fined.

That's the difference between a strong manager and a weak one.

I'd argue the Mets are a much better team without Carlos Delgado. He is overpaid, he does choke and he is a primadonna. He does not make this team better. Therefore, put me down for option (a)

Although I loved the fact he refused the curtain call, at home, against the hated Atlanta Braves when he hit the two home runs this season. He was tired of being booed and refused to "tip his cap" to the people he felt were "fair weather fans." Playing devils advocate this is New York. We boo A-Rod when he slumps. You make $10 million dollars a season playing a child's game. If he was a rookie, he'd be back in AAA but he's an overpaid seasoned veteran who (like much of the Mets) was once an All Star. You finally don't suck for one game and they cheered......get off you a$$ and say "hello"

[allstarsplus]

I follow baseball pretty closely and as an avid Mets hater and a huge Braves fan you can take my comments with a grain of salt.

I was watching a story on biggest GM screwups like Mike Hampton and Kevin Brown and others (they named so many) and I look at it as there are so many factors such as injuries, bad timing, bad team fit, and just plain overrated players to start with.

Some may consider ARod a bad signing based on how much money it cost.

I am starting to believe in this whole build the team from the farm system style, but as a fan we all want to get that "Johan Santana" type of signing.

On a side note, Omar Minaya was rated last year by Forbes as the #2 best GM in the MLB only trailing Billy Beane of the Oakland A's. #3 was Theo Epstein.

http://www.forbes.com/business/2007/03/02/sports-greatest-gms-biz-cz_jg_0302gms_2.html

[Metsfan808]

I follow baseball pretty closely and as an avid Mets hater and a huge Braves fan you can take my comments with a grain of salt.

Minaya went out and wasted millions of dollars on a has-been first baseman who has done nothing but choke for them. The he followed up this mistake by overpaying his centerfielder because he once had a miraculous Post-Season with the Astros. I think he also dropped the ball keeping Luis Castillo as his second baseman when Jose Valentin was a much better producer for them and while he is at the end of his career, this club could use some veteran leadership as Moises Alou is obviously as done as Mike Hampton.
In fact when you take away Jose Reyes and David Wright who were in the system and therefore not acquired by him, I'd argue Omar is much like his club when it comes to his building of this team, just south of .500 with no great future ahead.

Willie however should be kept for what he did. He took an overachieving bunch of guys and convinced them they could be winners. They fell apart last season because of a case of self-fulfilling prophecy. It's like a virus and could not be stopped. I don't think last year affected this year in any way, they are simply playing much better Marlins, Braves and Phillies teams and they didn't overachieve like they did last year. $140 Million or not, this is a .500 team.

I think they sacked the wrong guy but what do I know, I root for the Braves but live on Long Island! :D

For someone who follows baseball closely you don't know much about the Mets, Mets hater or not.

1. Omar did not sign Delgado he traded for him after the 2005 season ended.
2. Omar did not overpay his centerfielder as a result of Delgado choking. Beltran was signed before the Marlins ever signed Delgado and ONE year before Omar traded for Delgado.
3. Delgado began to choke in 2007. He had a very productive 2006 season for the Mets.
4. He dropped the ball in signing Castillo?? So he should have kept Valentin who blew out his knee in 2007 making the Castillo trade necessary? Valentin has not been able to get on a major league field yet because of his injuries. While Castillo has gimpy knees and should not have been signed for 4 years he has been almost as productive as he has ever been. He is playing up to his career averages for the most part. The problem with that contract is not this year and maybe not even next year it will be the last 2 years and thankfully the Mets could write him a check and ask him to leave at 3 am just like they did with Willie Randolph.

The only thing you got right was that Alou is as fragile as Hampton. I hope you keep up with the Braves better than you do with the Mets but what do I know I'm a Mets fan living on Long Island.

[camarokids]

For someone who follows baseball closely you don't know much about the Mets, Mets hater or not.

1. Omar did not sign Delgado he traded for him after the 2005 season ended.


Wouldn't you still have to have a player "sign" even after being traded to your team . The player would still have to sign a contract, right ?

[TNTtoys]

On a side note, Omar Minaya was rated last year by Forbes as the #2 best GM in the MLB only trailing Billy Beane of the Oakland A's. #3 was Theo Epstein.


Minaya is regarded as a top GM, but strategically, he has failed with the Mets. His plan was to "mortgage the future to win now" -- the trouble is, he didn't win (2006 and 2007), and this is the first year the Mets will start to feel the pain. They do not have the future stars that were traded away in order to build the winner... Scott Kazmir, Mike Jacobs, etc. Instead, they have an aging Carlos Delgado, Luis Castillo, Pedro Martinez, Moises Alou, Orlando Hernandez, etc.
Don't get me wrong here... I do think Willie should have been fired for his own failures as Mets manager, but he is not the sole culprit. Our GM didn't exactly equip him with a winner for years to come.

[Vintagedeputy]

Jerry Manuel's first game as the Mets manager - Jose Reyes gets hurt and argues with the new manager about coming out of the game.

http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20080617&content_id=2949869&vkey=news_nym&fext=.jsp&c_id=nym&partnerId=rss_nym

I guess that's Willie Randolph's fault too. Way to go Mets...

[TNTtoys]

Jerry Manuel's first game as the Mets manager - Jose Reyes gets hurt and argues with the new manager about coming out of the game.

http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20080617&content_id=2949869&vkey=news_nym&fext=.jsp&c_id=nym&partnerId=rss_nym

I guess that's Willie Randolph's fault too. Way to go Mets...

You clearly don't get it. Had Reyes been disciplined correctly for any of his actions in the past 2 years, it would not have come to this on Tuesday. The primadonna behavior was allowed for so long in New York that it became the norm.

A few weeks ago, Charlie Manuel (no relation to our current manager I presume) benched his MVP Jimmy Rollins for not hustling. Jimmy took it like a man. When interviewed after the game, he told the press that he understands it was wrong and would not do it again. That's the atmosphere that needs to be established in the Mets' clubhouse... and Willie clearly hadn't.

[Vintagedeputy]

You clearly don't get it. Had Reyes been disciplined correctly for any of his actions in the past 2 years, it would not have come to this on Tuesday. The primadonna behavior was allowed for so long in New York that it became the norm.

A few weeks ago, Charlie Manuel (no relation to our current manager I presume) benched his MVP Jimmy Rollins for not hustling. Jimmy took it like a man. When interviewed after the game, he told the press that he understands it was wrong and would not do it again. That's the atmosphere that needs to be established in the Mets' clubhouse... and Willie clearly hadn't.


Funny, I have never heard of Reyes acting like a primadonna before. I also wasnt aware that Reyes had "actions" that needed discipline. As a career .285 hitter, Reyes seemed to be flourishing during Willie's tenure.

You will never convince me that the Mets made the right call on this, even if Jerry Manuel takes them to the WS in 4 games.

[TNTtoys]

Funny, I have never heard of Reyes acting like a primadonna before. I also wasnt aware that Reyes had "actions" that needed discipline. As a career .285 hitter, Reyes seemed to be flourishing during Willie's tenure.

You will never convince me that the Mets made the right call on this, even if Jerry Manuel takes them to the WS in 4 games.

Reyes has a history of --

1. Not running out fly balls

2. Watching/admiring his shots rather than running hard just in case they don't clear the wall (ala yesterday)

3. Attempting to steal in very stupid situations (i.e. my prior example about trying to steal 3rd base with 2 outs and the game on the line)

Sometimes it's not about Reyes, it's about the team.
Again, a manager needs to control the attitudes in the clubhouse.

[TNTtoys]

My personal favorite was when Jim Riggleman led the Cubs 1998 team to the playoffs and then had an injury riddled pitching staff in 1999 and was abruptly fired. After Riggleman got fired 9 years ago he hasn't been rehired as a big league manager.

This just in...

http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news;_ylt=AvomS1nY9kyh.ZiXYZ4PtrE5nYcB?slug=ap-mariners-mclarenfired&prov=ap&type=lgns

9 years go by and nothing happens.

You complain, and 2 days later, Jim Riggleman has a new managerial job!!!

Andrew, you must know people in high places :rolleyes:

[allstarsplus]

This just in...

http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news;_ylt=AvomS1nY9kyh.ZiXYZ4PtrE5nYcB?slug=ap-mariners-mclarenfired&prov=ap&type=lgns

9 years go by and nothing happens.

You complain, and 2 days later, Jim Riggleman has a new managerial job!!!

Andrew, you must know people in high places :rolleyes:

TNT - Just a strange coincidence, but maybe they read my comments (lol). Jim is a great baseball guy and a good person, and I am glad after 9 years he got another chance!

The Mariners will be a good challenge for Jim and hopefully this is long term for him.

Thanks for the Post.:D

[Metsfan808]

Wouldn't you still have to have a player "sign" even after being traded to your team . The player would still have to sign a contract, right ?

No, the player has to follow the contract that he signed until it expires or the team releases the player.

If a player signs a 4 year deal in 2004 and is traded in 2005 he still has 2 years left on his deal. The team that aquires him aquires his contract. There is no "signing" because the player already has a contract.

[camarokids]

No, the player has to follow the contract that he signed until it expires or the team releases the player.

If a player signs a 4 year deal in 2004 and is traded in 2005 he still has 2 years left on his deal. The team that aquires him aquires his contract. There is no "signing" because the player already has a contract.

I see the light now :D....

But sometimes does a player to be traded , negotiate a new contract with his new team , as part of the deal ?

[gingi79]

No, the player has to follow the contract that he signed until it expires or the team releases the player.

If a player signs a 4 year deal in 2004 and is traded in 2005 he still has 2 years left on his deal. The team that aquires him aquires his contract. There is no "signing" because the player already has a contract.


This is semantics. He acquired a ballplayer who was well past his prime.

The overpay for players like this every season. Pedro got a deal that by every logical account was 2 years too long. Now he's breaking down, rightfully so as he has had a HOF career and now he's old and years past his prime. Yes he had a great 2 seaons with the Mets but they are paying for it now.

Also I didn't say anything about getting Beltran because of Delgado, I said they were two examples of Minaya acquiring marginal players after their best part or full season or overpaying for future HOFers way past their prime and getting quality seasons for only half their contracts. The Castillo contract was hellacious and not worth discussing as it is one of many the Mets made.

Ryan Chuch is injured but he was the most consistent player on this team. That is a disturbing fact given the payroll. Minaya did a good job acquiring him. Given the Mets history of getting ballplayers who do great but get injured seemingly every year (Alou, Valentin, Church, any catcher, Pedro the list goes on...)

Willie didn't acquire any of these guys and no one in the Mets organization is holding Minaya accountable for his mistakes. When you add the injuries and the success Randolph had (second best winning percentage in Mets history behind Davey Johnson) and the way he was fired, the Mets messed up.

[metsbats]

http://nbcsports.msnbc.com/id/25217971/

Bottom line Omar couldn't fire 40 players nor fire himself so Randolph is the scapegoat as every MLB manager is when a team does not do well.

The way is was done we all agree was classless and cowardly.

The above article hits the nail on the head. Hopefully Omar is next.

How many World Championships did the Expos win while Omar was the GM there???

David

[allstarsplus]

A long way to go as we are about at the 100 game mark now with 62 to go, but............

Mets take a share of 1st place today!!!! I am not even a Mets fan and I can't believe it!!!!

http://mlb.mlb.com/news/gameday_recap.jsp?ymd=20080720&content_id=3160220&vkey=recap&fext=.jsp&c_id=mlb

[markize]

[quote=allstarsplus;91998]A long way to go as we are about at the 100 game mark now with 62 to go, but............

Mets take a share of 1st place today!!!! I am not even a Mets fan and I can't believe it!!!!


Andrew..........yes, the Mets may be in 1st place today, but lets not forget their recent history of falling apart at the end of the season!!

mark