Hanna-Batrite, Kren, Zinn Beck GU Pro Bats?

[sammy]

Hi Sammy--

H & B factory records from the mid-1930s and earlier rarly mention the length of a bat...the prime concern was the weight of a bat....The typical order for Babe Ruth was a bat 35 inches or 36 inches in length, with a weight between 35 and 38 ounces, usually on the higher end.

I believe that the quote you are referring to was taken from an article on hitting that Ruth did for H & B that appeared, I believe, in one of the annual H & B Yearbooks (that may not be the correct reference.) In the article, Ruth mentions that he went from a heavy 36 inch bat early on down to a length 35 inches long and sometimes shorter.

Authenticators in the past have viewed 34 inch Babe Ruth bats as " a professional model Ruth bat of dimensions not consistant with those of Ruth's personal orders but a pro model non the less with possible use by Ruth or anther player for some purpose ..." The presence of specific Ruth game-used characteristics would increase the likely authenticity of the bat when offering an opinion as to specific game use by Ruth or another player.

The other characteristics that appear frequently in Ruth's personal records are "plenty of knots," "large knobs," and "thin handle."

In 1942, three Ruth models were assigned Model Numbers :

Ruth's specifications of 5/14/27 was assigned Model Number R34;
Ruth's specifications of 8/17/33 was assigned Model Number R43 (off Chapman's w'out Jorgens 4-8-32 larger end) and specified 35" / 36 oz;
the Old Ruth model was assigned Model Number R2.

Good Luck in future collecting.

Mike

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Hi Mike,

Thank you for your response.

I gather from your reply, there probably were 34" bats shipped to Ruth from H&B since the main concern was weight, especially in his later years as age and life started taking a toll.

It seems in today's world, more authenticators, sellers and buyers are accepting 34" Ruth bats with the same confidence as longer models in regard to being game used by Ruth, e.g., the Ruth bat in the last Mastro auction among others that have sold in recent years.

Now there are other manufacturer's bats gaining legitimacy in regard to being game used by pros, e.g., Hanna-Batrite bats used by Ruth, Gehrig, Foxx, etc., / Kren bats used by Gehrig, DiMaggio, etc., / Zinn Beck bats used by Cobb, etc. I also notice quite a few of these are 34" in length.

In regard to the Hanna-Batrite game bats, I've seen a few Gehrig and others, but maybe only one or two Ruth. The Babe Ruth Batrite appears to be the rarest H-B bat. Most of these are 34" too, and date between 1931-35.

I know there is a major lack of shipping/bat records in regard to these companies from that time period, hence the ability to state these are gamers if the player's characteristics are present.

I believe this is mainly due to old photographs showing pros using these bats, and photos of dugouts from the 1920/30s showing these manufacturer's bats in the player's hand, or laying on the ground amongst the H&Bs.

The majority of non H&B game used pro bats that I have seen in auctions over the past few years are the Hanna-Batrite with bat logo. These seem more prevalent then Kren or Zinn Beck.

Any thoughts in regard to these Hanna-Batrite pro bats? Compared to H&B pro bats, these are more affordable presently. The prices have escalated tremendously in the past few years as more collectors, authenticators, seller's, etc., have become more aware of these.

I was thinking of picking up some of the big names while these are affordable.

Any thoughts on these bats?

Anyone........

Thanks to all.

[ghostkid]

Sammy,

Yeah, I think those non-H&B bats are currently at bargain prices. You mentioned the Hanna Batrite, Kren's, and Zinn Beck bats. I'd like to add Spalding to that list. I have bought several of these bats over the past year or two and plan to hold onto them until the market "catches up". IMHO, I believe they currently are grossly undervalued. With that said, I have also seen an increasing number of collectors take an interest in these bats recently, resulting in rising prices. My feeling is that prices for these non-H&B bats will double withing the next two years, then the real collector interest develops and who know where it will go from there. It'll be interesting to see if they close the gap on the prices brought by the H&B bats.

Perhaps a great deal of the credit for the increasing collector base goes to MEARS and the fine research they have done. As more info comes available, more interest will be generated in these bats. Now that vintage photos are the newest hot collectible, perhaps more photo evidence will appear supporting the use of non-H&B bats in major league games. Are there any bat collectors out there that have uncovered photos of major lague players wielding non-H&B bats? If so, let's hear about it...

Kevin Kasper

[sammy]

Here is a 1950s photo of 500 HR and HOF member Eddie Mathews holding a Hanna-Batrite amongst some H&Bs at the Braves dugout.

The Batrite is the second from the right.




http://i23.ebayimg.com/02/i/05/cc/ff/e2_1.JPG

[MSpecht]

Hi Sammy --

I agree with you that these bats (non- H & B) are undervalued and present an opportunity for the collector at this point in time. For years these bats such as Hanna Batrite, Spalding, Kren, etc. were treated as store model bats primarily because sufficient research had not been done to be able to distinguish the various labeling on the bats. Photos exist, however, showing Major League players with these bats in their hands before, after, and during games.

Over the past two years in particular, significant research has been completed where now authenticators can determine, with a high degree of probability, the differences between store model bats, potential professional model bats, and definite professional model bats of these early brands. Dave Bushing, in particular, has done tremendous research in this area.

That being said, even with reduced prices compared to H & B professional model bats, alternative-brand bats from Hall of Fame players and stars still will take a big bite out of your wallet. My personal opinion is to do as much research as you can, and become familiar with the known preferences of the particular player in terms of length, weight, finish, etc. based on known factory records (H & B), and make sure that the alternative-brand bat matches or comes reasonably (VERY reasonably) close to those records. Then throw in any known individual game use characteristics of the particular player, and be satisfied yourself that there is a high probability that the bat could have been used by the particular player represented in a professional game.

Don't forget that variables exist in all areas. I recently reviewed and provided a confirming authentication of a 1926 - 1934 Hack Wilson Spalding bat that was a store model bat (Autograph Series) that had been used by a Minor League player, cracked, and sent to H & B for duplication. The side-writing was visible and bats were manufactured by H & B to match and returned to the player. So, here are the variables :

Was this a bat manufactured by Spalding for use in a professional game -- No.

Was this bat used in a professional game by a professional player -- Yes.

Was this bat used by the professional player whose name appears engraved on the barrel (Hack Wilson) -- No.

So, what exactly is this bat ??? In my opinion it is correctly represented as a Hack Wilson Spalding store model bat used at the professional level by the player whose name is side-written on the barrel during the referenced labeling period.

Good Luck in future collecting. The opportunities are currently out there for decent values in alternative-brand bats, but as always, become as much of an expert as you can and don't hesitate to ask how someone else arrived at the conclusions they did about a particular bat.

Mike

[jboosted92]

I couldnt agree more. I think that Non-H&B 125 bats (Meaning that 125's are most commonly associated to ordered pro-models), like LS 250s, 40ks, Hanna Batrites, Krens,Zinn Becks will see a rise, as more and more pictures and attributions come to play. Let me ask you guys this, Would you rather have a LS 125 bat that is non-typical length and weight of a player and no attributes, OR a 40k, Kren, Hanna pro-bat that is trypical length weight matches specs and has attributes including signature on bat???

[sammy]

Dave Bushing has written an informative article on how to determine Hanna Batrite professional model game used bats on the MEARS website. This is a members only section and the cost is 40.00 a year to join. It is well worth the money for the information contained on various subjects. Plus you will get a voucher for 10 percent off of any of their services. Could easily make the 40.00 back on one submission.

In regard to professional model Hanna Batrite game used bats, under the MEARS grading system, without side writing or provenance, the highest grade a Hanna Batrite professional player game used bat can be graded is A5. The only exception are bats with hand turned knobs, which can be graded as high as an A8 because of the special care taken in their preparation and hence the scarcity.

I believe from the MEARS grading system, if a Hanna Batrite bat has a final grade of A5, it has been concluded by the MEARS authenticators that the bat has all the game used and factory documented characteristics of that player.

As per a game used Hanna Batrite bat in a recent auction, in reviewing the MEARS worksheet, the bat was originally graded an A8, but lost three points due to incomplete factory records from Hanna Batrite. MEARS takes 3 points off of the initial grade of a Hanna Batrite game used bat due to the incomplete factory records.

Since there are Louisville Slugger records, MEARS concludes that although Hanna Batrite bats have professional model traits and manufacturing characteristics, there should still be a separation in grading of complete factory records versus incomplete factory records. Therefore, a higher grade serves as a reward for the H&B bat records and the fact more information is available.

Would you conclude that a Hanna Batrite bat originally graded an A8, with a final grade of A5 due to incomplete factory records, is an actual game used bat by that player?

[ghostkid]

I couldnt agree more. I think that Non-H&B 125 bats (Meaning that 125's are most commonly associated to ordered pro-models), like LS 250s, 40ks, Hanna Batrites, Krens,Zinn Becks will see a rise, as more and more pictures and attributions come to play. Let me ask you guys this, Would you rather have a LS 125 bat that is non-typical length and weight of a player and no attributes, OR a 40k, Kren, Hanna pro-bat that is trypical length weight matches specs and has attributes including signature on bat???


What a great question...it really makes one think. In most cases I'd rather have a non-LS125 bat that matches known player length & weight specifications, but that is somewhat dependent on the player. For example, Rogers Hornsby and Zinn Beck both played on the 1915 & 1916 St. Louis Cardinals, so I feel it is very plausible that Hornsby did at least try out Zinn Beck bats during the end of the 1920's. In this case, I'd rather have the 1920's Zinn Beck bat than a LS125 Hornsby bat that is too short and/or too light. Now consider the example of any big-time HOFer whose career didn't start until the mid-1930's or later. By then, I believe Louisville slugger had knocked out their small-time competition and was the "only game in own" for many years to come. Here I'd shy away from the non-traditional bats and stick with the safe choice of H&B.

Kevin Kasper

[jboosted92]

What a great question...it really makes one think. In most cases I'd rather have a non-LS125 bat that matches known player length & weight specifications, but that is somewhat dependent on the player. For example, Rogers Hornsby and Zinn Beck both played on the 1915 & 1916 St. Louis Cardinals, so I feel it is very plausible that Hornsby did at least try out Zinn Beck bats during the end of the 1920's. In this case, I'd rather have the 1920's Zinn Beck bat than a LS125 Hornsby bat that is too short and/or too light. Now consider the example of any big-time HOFer whose career didn't start until the mid-1930's or later. By then, I believe Louisville slugger had knocked out their small-time competition and was the "only game in own" for many years to come. Here I'd shy away from the non-traditional bats and stick with the safe choice of H&B.

Kevin Kasper

I can somewhat agree with that, considering Hanna-batrite Pro-models are desolite after 1935ish...
As more and more research by hobbyists and experts (Dave B. Troy K. Dave B.etc)..in regards to Non-125 LS's, I think we will be able to continue to prove attribution and authenticity. The more things discovered, the more history uncovered, the more the hobby thrives.

[martindl]

I'm still very much on the sidelines when it comes to the legitimcy of many of these bats. I'm not saying that they weren't used professionally, just that in many cases i haven't seen nor found enough evidence to substantiate some of the claims to the point where i can feel comfortable. I don't pretend to have the resources, experience nor knoweldge that others do, so my not having evidence doesn't really mean much, but i am one of those collectors that wants to do my own homework versus relying on letters and the such.

Particularly vexing to me are H&B Kork Grip 40k bats. It wasn't that long ago (mid November) that the first evidence turned up in the the H&B records linking a player (Ruth) to a Kork Grip bat. In December it was stated that "information" existed on "a few others".

In Mastro's last auction (February 13th) there were 3 40k bats (Joe Jackson, Fonseca & Cochrane) - in the write ups there are references to Eddie Collins and Frankie Frisch using such bats also. What this means is that between November and January records or evidence showed up that now links seven players to 40k bats. I'm not saying thats not possible, but I just think the leap from store-bought to professionally-used happened awfully quickly.

I keep searching, trying to do my own research because i have my eye on a 40k myself, so i'd love for the link to be a real one, but personally I need more evidence and less leaps of faith.

If anyone has any info on 40ks that they'd like to share, i'll be very engaged.

[jboosted92]

I'm still very much on the sidelines when it comes to the legitimcy of many of these bats. I'm not saying that they weren't used professionally, just that in many cases i haven't seen nor found enough evidence to substantiate some of the claims to the point where i can feel comfortable. I don't pretend to have the resources, experience nor knoweldge that others do, so my not having evidence doesn't really mean much, but i am one of those collectors that wants to do my own homework versus relying on letters and the such.

Particularly vexing to me are H&B Kork Grip 40k bats. It wasn't that long ago (mid November) that the first evidence turned up in the the H&B records linking a player (Ruth) to a Kork Grip bat. In December it was stated that "information" existed on "a few others".

In Mastro's last auction (February 13th) there were 3 40k bats (Joe Jackson, Fonseca & Cochrane) - in the write ups there are references to Eddie Collins and Frankie Frisch using such bats also. What this means is that between November and January records or evidence showed up that now links seven players to 40k bats. I'm not saying thats not possible, but I just think the leap from store-bought to professionally-used happened awfully quickly.

I keep searching, trying to do my own research because i have my eye on a 40k myself, so i'd love for the link to be a real one, but personally I need more evidence and less leaps of faith.

If anyone has any info on 40ks that they'd like to share, i'll be very engaged.


OLD OLD Post..

but piggy backing off of another one...

read my last statement in the ED rousch records post...