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ghostkid
03-08-2006, 01:34 PM
Hi Guys,

I have two Mickey Mantle Adirondack 302 bats from the 1960's in my collection that I have always wondered about. I'm now getting ready to sell them (probably on eBay) and feel its important to collect the facts so I don't misrepresent the bats. One of the bats is a model 288D (34 inches) weighing about 31.1 ounces, and the other is a model 288E (36 inches) weighing around 37.8 inches.

Based on previous research, I understand that there is some controversy as to whether C, D, and E models are pro models. Apparently, these models were available to major leaguers as well as others? In fact, much of my knowledge regarding this comes from the two paragraphs in the middle of page 65 from the Bats book co-authored by Mike Specht and others in the mid-1990's.

I have seen a few of these bats sell through major auction houses over the past few years, often achieving impressive prices. They never achieve the prices of a fully-authenticated gamer, but always seem to sell for many times the cost of a typical store model Adirondack bat. The latest examples were in the Vintage Authentics sale that ended last week. Lot 94 was a 1958-60 Mickey Mantle Adirondack 288D, graded A3 by MEARS. Lot 98 was a 1968-70 Willie Mays Adirondack 282D, graded A3 by MEARS.

Does anyone have definitive shipping records to help me determine whether or not I have pro model game used bats? Assuming those records are not available, what other factors should I focus on when trying to describe these bats to a prospective buyer? Any help is much appreciated.

Kevin Kasper

JimCaravello
03-09-2006, 07:01 AM
Hi Kevin - I am shocked to see what the Mays bat brought in Vintage Authentics. A Mays bat from this period graded A3 should not bring $1,700 - period. To me, the high bidders were people who are not privy to the info at hand that you have mentioned in this thread. I believe most collectors of game used bats who collect Adirondack bats from this period would not buy a C, D or E model bat. I believe and I know you will, that you should disclose all the info you have provided in the thread when you list the bat. Unfortunately, there are no documented Adirondack records that I am aware of. Some people have had success in getting some specific questions answered over the phone, but there is nothing avialble in print that I know of, such as the Louisville Slugger records. Your 37 inch Mantle bat may do better than the 34" bat. As you know, Mantle did not order but a handful of 34" bats during his career.

Good luck with them - you may want to try to contact Mike Specht directly as he may have more info for you. Jim Caravello

MSpecht
03-09-2006, 11:27 AM
Hi Kevin--

Jim is correct--- the prices that the two bats you mention were pretty steep for D model Adirondacks graded A3 by Mears or any other authentication process. Unfortunately I did not see how the bats were presented in the auction write-up, and apparently one can't navigate through the closed auction items on the VA website. I don't believe he Mears site has the certs or worksheets for those two bats online yet either as far as I could determine. Anyway, without the benefit of any additional information on the two specific bats, here is some general information on the Adirondack labeling:

The model number stamped into the knob of a professional model Adirondack bat is usually one, two, or three numbers, followed by one or two letters. The typical letters used by Adirondack in this fashion on professional model bats include A, B, X, and XX, such as appear on the following bats I have authenticated in the past -- Ted Simmons 256A, Garry Maddox 154B, Dick Stuart 113X, and Bobby Bonds 154XX.

Adirondack also used model numbers on professional model bats that start with one or two letters followed by two numbers. This most often occurs when the player's initials appear as part of the model number. Commonly seen letters used in this manner include M (Willie Mays M63), MS (Mike Schmidt MS20), DW (Dave Winfield DW20), RJ (Reggie Jackson 288RJ) and others. CAUTION: Do not confuse this Adirondack numbering system with H & B -- it is OK to have a player's initials stamped into the knob of an Adirondack professional bat, however if a Louisville Slugger has a player's initials stamped into the knob end it is a store bat (for instance, MM4).

There has always been some controversy surrounding Adirondack bats that have the letters C or D following the series of numbers in the model number. Some collector's believe that Adirondack offered both C and D model bats to both the public via catalogue and to professional players. Others have the opinion that D bats were primarily shipped to colleges for the school's use. In 1991 bat researcher/collector Mike Montbriand stated that he was comfortable with C model bats with provenance, explaining : "I base that on my personal experience with C model bats plus my knowledge that professional ballplayers, such as Harmon Killebrew, own professional model Adirondack bats with model numbers stamped in the knob ending with the letter C."

The same controversy exists with Adirondack S model bats made prior to 1968.

As both Jim and I have noted repeatedly in responses to questions on this forum and in blog postings, YOU must be comfortable with the legitimacy of any bat you are considering , and what it ultimately comes down to is the probability that any specific bat is what it is purported to be. Obviously, game used Mantle or Mays bats of that era, if not surrounded by controversy, are premium bats that command premium prices. That was not the case in the VA auction, but the prices that the bats did realize (Mantle - $2132, and Mays - $1719) was not pocket change either.

For my money, the less controversy the better !!!

Good Luck in future collecting.

Mike

MSpecht
03-09-2006, 05:36 PM
Hi--

In re-reading my previous post, I realized I left out an additional piece of information regarding Adirondack C model bats. In addition to the statement of Mike Montbriand noted above, there have been unimpeachable examples of Adirondack bats in private collections. My good friend Bill Riddell, co-author of the book BATS, currently has a Roy Sievers Adirondack in his personal collection with outstanding game use, appropriate labeling for the period, and vintage marker uniform number (2) on the knob. Provenance ? Bill acquired this bat personally from the Washington Senators bat boy of the time. This Adirondack is Model 282C, and is unquestionably a professional model, game used bat. The lesson here is that with C model Adirondacks, look to the individual game use characteristics and the provenance.

Mike

ghostkid
03-09-2006, 09:30 PM
Jim and Mike,

As always, thanks for the info you have provided regarding the Adirondack pro model bats. Too bad those factory records are nowhere to be found, they sure would clear up a bunch of confusion regarding the C, D, E, and S models. I think this is one area of the bat collecting hobby that needs some clarification and research. Hopefully more information comes available over the next few years. When I get ready to sell I'll be careful to present what I know and let the market determine what the bats are worth. I truly don't know what to expect.

Kevin Kasper