Hunt Auctions, Huggins & Scott...

**allstarsplus** · 09-06-2008, 08:37 AM

Re: Hunt Auctions, Huggins & Scott...

Originally posted by aeneas01

Huggins & Scott - LOT 1288 - 1966-71 Houston Oilers Game-Used #11 Helmet - Starting Bid $200.00

http://www.hugginsandscott.com/cgi-bin/showitem.pl?itemid=8891

.......

Robert - The Huggins auction doesn't start until October 5th so all lots are on preview and open for analysis like you did.

I emailed Bill Huggins and I am very confident he will personally look into this and if it doesn't look right will be pulled.

This is how Bill has always handled past issues if you check their history.

Bill is as honest as they come so fear not and expect swift action on this one!

**josh@hugginsandscott.com** · 09-06-2008, 10:48 AM

Re: Hunt Auctions, Huggins & Scott...

thank you for bringing this to our attention. I will certainly look into it and if, as you say, there is no way that it is a legit Oilers helmet, we will pull it from the auction and return it to the consignor.

thanks again,
Josh Wulkan
VP of Auction Operations

Huggins And Scott Auctions

https://www.hugginsandscott.com

**commando** · 09-06-2008, 11:50 AM

Re: Hunt Auctions, Huggins & Scott...

One of the main reasons I come to this forum is in hopes of finding a new aeneas01 post. This weekend has kicked off quite well!!!

**aeneas01** · 09-06-2008, 06:37 PM

Re: Hunt Auctions, Huggins & Scott...

Originally posted by allstarsplus

Robert - The Huggins auction doesn't start until October 5th so all lots are on preview and open for analysis like you did. I emailed Bill Huggins and I am very confident he will personally look into this and if it doesn't look right will be pulled. This is how Bill has always handled past issues if you check their history. Bill is as honest as they come so fear not and expect swift action on this one!

i'm very glad to hear that h&s is considered a very reputable and honest auction house - and a vote of confidence from a respected guu member such as yourself goes a very long way in my book.

the thing is i have such a tough time understanding how something like this could possibly happen at a reputable sports memorabilia auction house - and i have a tougher time understanding how something like this could have happened twice before (this helmet previously sold at auction, at least once before at h&s, for $600 & $800).

i mean it's not like this helmet remotely resembles an authentic, vintage riddell helmet from that era - yet h&s clearly states that it is indeed a vintage riddell helmet (presumably because of the riddell logo printed on the reproduction chinstrap). further the h&s lot description states that "extensive research" was performed on the helmet in an effort to determine, among other things, which player from that era wore the number "11" appearing on the helmet.

this would imply that h&s at least noticed the number "11" on the helmet - yet they didn't notice that the oilers never used the type/style of numbering appearing on this helmet?

anyway i'm sure it's just an honest mistake - but when you see something like this that is so obvious you have to question h&s's commitment to detail and/or the scope of their expertise.

...

**allstarsplus** · 09-06-2008, 07:25 PM

Re: Hunt Auctions, Huggins & Scott...

Robert - I know when I have consigned "Game Used" to them I have been given the option of paying for an authenticator to give a Letter on it which I have done on some more expensive items.

Members of GUF like yourself has done them a great service and you should be commended for that. I am glad Josh jumped on it quickly.

The H&S main office is 20 minutes from my home so I have been able to see many of their pieces. In my opinion, much of their auction is sports cards and their game used items are certainly growing.

It appears to me that you have the most knowledge I have seen in helmets that you ought to think of branching out and do authentications for other auction houses for $$$.

**RKGIBSON** · 09-06-2008, 09:59 PM

Re: Hunt Auctions, Huggins & Scott...

I agree, the real problem here is that these items made it into the auction. It just tell me that they do not have a clue what they are doing. They may be honest, but not knowledgable.

Roger

**trsent** · 09-07-2008, 12:14 AM

Re: Hunt Auctions, Huggins & Scott...

Originally posted by RKGIBSON

I agree, the real problem here is that these items made it into the auction. It just tell me that they do not have a clue what they are doing. They may be honest, but not knowledgable.

Roger

Originally posted by aeneas01

i'm very glad to hear that h&s is considered a very reputable and honest auction house - and a vote of confidence from a respected guu member such as yourself goes a very long way in my book.

the thing is i have such a tough time understanding how something like this could possibly happen at a reputable sports memorabilia auction house - and i have a tougher time understanding how something like this could have happened twice before (this helmet previously sold at auction, at least once before at h&s, for $600 & $800).

i mean it's not like this helmet remotely resembles an authentic, vintage riddell helmet from that era - yet h&s clearly states that it is indeed a vintage riddell helmet (presumably because of the riddell logo printed on the reproduction chinstrap). further the h&s lot description states that "extensive research" was performed on the helmet in an effort to determine, among other things, which player from that era wore the number "11" appearing on the helmet.

this would imply that h&s at least noticed the number "11" on the helmet - yet they didn't notice that the oilers never used the type/style of numbering appearing on this helmet?

anyway i'm sure it's just an honest mistake - but when you see something like this that is so obvious you have to question h&s's commitment to detail and/or the scope of their expertise.

...

I think what is being forgotten here is that the auction houses have a ton of competition trying to find quality items. They are not experts on everything, and some auction houses try hard to be honest and come on here when something is called into question and do the right thing. Then there are some auction houses that read the forum and pull lots when there are issues found. Finally there are the auction houses who do not care what is found to be questionable - They ignore all the facts and pretend Game Used Universe doesn't exist.

This helmet made it through the ropes at Hunt Auctions, this great discussion forum brought it to their attention and they will pull the lot. They were classy enough to come on here and discuss it with us.

Every auction house is going to make an error from time to time, and working with them instead of scaring them away by criticizing them for missing something that may be obvious to some will hurt our reputation.

I have never even remember picking up a Hunt Auctions catalog, but I will tell you I am pleased they joined the discussion about this questionable item and we should keep them in good graces for the next time an error is found in their auction so the work with us unlike many auction houses that prefer to ignore Game Used Universe due to what they feel is unfair abuse (most of it, in the end, is deserved and fair).

**aeneas01** · 09-07-2008, 03:16 AM

Re: Hunt Auctions, Huggins & Scott...

Originally posted by trsent

I think what is being forgotten here is that the auction houses have a ton of competition trying to find quality items. They are not experts on everything, and some auction houses try hard to be honest and come on here when something is called into question and do the right thing. Then there are some auction houses that read the forum and pull lots when there are issues found. Finally there are the auction houses who do not care what is found to be questionable - They ignore all the facts and pretend Game Used Universe doesn't exist.

This helmet made it through the ropes at Hunt Auctions, this great discussion forum brought it to their attention and they will pull the lot. They were classy enough to come on here and discuss it with us.

Every auction house is going to make an error from time to time, and working with them instead of scaring them away by criticizing them for missing something that may be obvious to some will hurt our reputation.

I have never even remember picking up a Hunt Auctions catalog, but I will tell you I am pleased they joined the discussion about this questionable item and we should keep them in good graces for the next time an error is found in their auction so the work with us unlike many auction houses that prefer to ignore Game Used Universe due to what they feel is unfair abuse (most of it, in the end, is deserved and fair).

first, huggins & scott joined this discussion, not hunt. second, both helmets remain listed at their sites. apparently h&s would rather let it ride while they look into it rather than pull it while they do their checking.

also keep in my mind that we're not discussing a vintage memorabilia item that could have easily been misidentified by anyone well versed in vintage sports memorabilia. we're not discussing, for example, an authentic 1960s game used rams suspension helmet made my gladiator that was erroneously listed as an authentic riddell suspension helmet. what we are discussing is a modern, readily available child's helmet, practically a toy, that has been listed by an experienced sports memorabilia auction house as a game used vintage professional model football helmet worn almost 50 years ago - and it was listed as something that was subjected to their "extensive research".

i don't consider this a minor lapse - a harmless oversight resulting from the "ton of competition" they face "trying to find quality items" as you mention. the item of topic is so blatantly and clearly not what h&s claims it to be that i consider it nothing short of a complete and total disregard for the accuracy of their own claims. further, if they are uncertain about the authenticity of an item, they have no business listing it as authentic. this isn't ebay - when a reputable sports memorabilia auction claims that an item is authentic, when it clearly states that "extensive research" has been performed, they better do better than this.

is it admirable that h&s jumped in here to say they would check it out? sure, although it doesn't exactly instill a great deal of confidence in me that something so obviously incorrect requires a fact finding mission. i would have been more impressed if h&s simply took one look at, gasped "how the heck did this toy make it to auction", and removed it immediately.

and, fwiw, i could really care less if an auction house feels alienated by critical posts, feels reluctant to participate in this forum because of what they deem to be harsh treatment. i'm only concerned about the collector - that he/she gets a fair and honest shake and receives what was described, what was advertised. but if i were you i wouldn't spend too much time worrying about auction houses - they are big boys, smart business folks and know how to make money. and that's why they do in fact visit guu.

...

**trsent** · 09-07-2008, 04:39 AM

Re: Hunt Auctions, Huggins & Scott...

Originally posted by aeneas01

first, huggins & scott joined this discussion, not hunt. second, both helmets remain listed at their sites. apparently h&s would rather let it ride while they look into it rather than pull it while they do their checking.

also keep in my mind that we're not discussing a vintage memorabilia item that could have easily been misidentified by anyone well versed in vintage sports memorabilia. we're not discussing, for example, an authentic 1960s game used rams suspension helmet made my gladiator that was erroneously listed as an authentic riddell suspension helmet. what we are discussing is a modern, readily available child's helmet, practically a toy, that has been listed by an experienced sports memorabilia auction house as a game used vintage professional model football helmet worn almost 50 years ago - and it was listed as something that was subjected to their "extensive research".

i don't consider this a minor lapse - a harmless oversight resulting from the "ton of competition" they face "trying to find quality items" as you mention. the item of topic is so blatantly and clearly not what h&s claims it to be that i consider it nothing short of a complete and total disregard for the accuracy of their own claims. further, if they are uncertain about the authenticity of an item, they have no business listing it as authentic. this isn't ebay - when a reputable sports memorabilia auction claims that an item is authentic, when it clearly states that "extensive research" has been performed, they better do better than this.

is it admirable that h&s jumped in here to say they would check it out? sure, although it doesn't exactly instill a great deal of confidence in me that something so obviously incorrect requires a fact finding mission. i would have been more impressed if h&s simply took one look at, gasped "how the heck did this toy make it to auction", and removed it immediately.

and, fwiw, i could really care less if an auction house feels alienated by critical posts, feels reluctant to participate in this forum because of what they deem to be harsh treatment. i'm only concerned about the collector - that he/she gets a fair and honest shake and receives what was described, what was advertised. but if i were you i wouldn't spend too much time worrying about auction houses - they are big boys, smart business folks and know how to make money. and that's why they do in fact visit guu.

...

So, you do not blame them for leaving the item listed while they investigate your claim and that is your issue? If it was my auction, I would wait to be sure to verify your allegations before pulling the item - Not that you are wrong, but they have to do some homework before pulling a consignors lot - Good or bad. I do not know what the difference is from Hunt and Huggins and Scott, so I do not know what the issue is there.

I think you should appreciate that you will help a collector not end up with a replica item and not continue to harass the auction house for missing an item. People are trusting, and all the complainers who constantly say I defend the auction houses too much are missing the point here - They said they will pull the item and you continue to preach how it should have never got by their authentication process in the first place.

Life goes on, you did a great job and then you continue to state how this should have never passed and you want to punish an auction house for promising to do the right thing.

No big deal to my life, but you should sleep well knowing you helped save an innocent person from buying a suspect item and let sleeping dogs lie. I think that is how the saying goes.

**aeneas01** · 09-07-2008, 06:33 AM

Re: Hunt Auctions, Huggins & Scott...

"So, you do not blame them for leaving the item listed while they investigate your claim and that is your issue? If it was my auction, I would wait to be sure to verify your allegations before pulling the item - Not that you are wrong, but they have to do some homework before pulling a consignors lot - Good or bad."

you obviously made up the part i underlined - they are required to do no such thing.

"I do not know what the difference is from Hunt and Huggins and Scott, so I do not know what the issue is there."

i have no idea what you are talking about.

"I think you should appreciate that you will help a collector not end up with a replica item and not continue to harass the auction house for missing an item."

joel, i've wanted to mention this to you in past but have held off... here's the thing - you are the one that perpetuates and fuels the negative comments leveled towards auction houses and dealers. you. forum members post their thoughts, concerns and warnings when they find issues. you respond to these posts by inviting more discussion, further examples and additional damnation. do you not see this? perhaps you sincerely believe that you are going to bat for some of the auction houses that have been mentioned in the past -but, trust me, you are doing them more harm than good.

"They said they will pull the item and you continue to preach how it should have never got by their authentication process in the first place."

case in point joel - now i'm forced to respond as follows: when an auction lists garbage, doesn't check their work, yet has the audacity to say that the item has undergone "extensive research" all should be forgotten, or they should be praised, if they simply come on this board and say "we'll check it out"? is that what you really think?

"Life goes on, you did a great job and then you continue to state how this should have never passed and you want to punish an auction house for promising to do the right thing."

life does indeed go on and, unfortunately, so do the mistakes auction houses continue to make - it goes on and on. should auction be expected to get it right 100% of the time? of course not - no one that i know would hold them to such a standard. is it unrealistic to expect an experienced sports memorabilia auction house to know the difference between a child's helmet available today at the corner sporting goods store and a circa late 60s vintage, game used pro football helmet? no, i don't think this is unrealistic.

...

**trsent** · 09-07-2008, 07:12 AM

Re: Hunt Auctions, Huggins & Scott...

Originally posted by aeneas01

"So, you do not blame them for leaving the item listed while they investigate your claim and that is your issue? If it was my auction, I would wait to be sure to verify your allegations before pulling the item - Not that you are wrong, but they have to do some homework before pulling a consignors lot - Good or bad."

you obviously made up the part i underlined - they are required to do no such thing.

"I do not know what the difference is from Hunt and Huggins and Scott, so I do not know what the issue is there."

i have no idea what you are talking about.

"I think you should appreciate that you will help a collector not end up with a replica item and not continue to harass the auction house for missing an item."

joel, i've wanted to mention this to you in past but have held off... here's the thing - you are the one that perpetuates and fuels the negative comments leveled towards auction houses and dealers. you. forum members post their thoughts, concerns and warnings when they find issues. you respond to these posts by inviting more discussion, further examples and additional damnation. do you not see this? perhaps you sincerely believe that you are going to bat for some of the auction houses that have been mentioned in the past -but, trust me, you are doing them more harm than good.

"They said they will pull the item and you continue to preach how it should have never got by their authentication process in the first place."

case in point joel - now i'm forced to respond as follows: when an auction lists garbage, doesn't check their work, yet has the audacity to say that the item has undergone "extensive research" all should be forgotten, or they should be praised, if they simply come on this board and say "we'll check it out"? is that what you really think?

"Life goes on, you did a great job and then you continue to state how this should have never passed and you want to punish an auction house for promising to do the right thing."

life does indeed go on and, unfortunately, so do the mistakes auction houses continue to make - it goes on and on. should auction be expected to get it right 100% of the time? of course not - no one that i know would hold them to such a standard. is it unrealistic to expect an experienced sports memorabilia auction house to know the difference between a child's helmet available today at the corner sporting goods store and a circa late 60s vintage, game used pro football helmet? no, i don't think this is unrealistic.

...

I am sorry you do not like to hear the truth, that auction houses and police officers do make mistakes, and you can pick on my reply, point by point to try to make me look like a fool (I don't, you just didn't re-read your post before reading mine to understand my comments), but at the end of the day they said they will remove the lot if they confirm your findings and that is not good enough for you.

Get over it, you are an expert at some things, they are an expert at others and they made a mistake and for once an auction house came on here and said they would correct it and you still are ripping them.

Why? Am I the bad guy here for telling you to work with them and throw away that box of Kleenex? Say something positive when the auction house says they will work with your comments and findings and don't continue to whine that they made an error they should have never made.

Everyone makes errors, be it judges, cops, art auction houses, gold buyers (I have bought gold that wasn't gold), presidents, lawyers, priests, rabbis, other holy figures, Adam and Eve, John Belushi, Ted Kennedy and I could go on and on...(Warren, a funny photo of this concept would be nice) but you want to rant over how this error should have never happened - Deal with it. Don't buy from them, but they said they would make good and you were still complaining and that is INSANE.

Have a nice day, life is too short to lose sleep over other's errors that do not keep food off your family's table.

**trsent** · 09-07-2008, 07:18 AM

Re: Hunt Auctions, Huggins & Scott...

Originally posted by aeneas01

case in point joel - now i'm forced to respond as follows: when an auction lists garbage, doesn't check their work, yet has the audacity to say that the item has undergone "extensive research" all should be forgotten, or they should be praised, if they simply come on this board and say "we'll check it out"? is that what you really think?

I forgot to mention, maybe if people stopped assuming that all auction houses are out to commit blatant fraud (I only assume one myself) and understand that they receive consignments that they take at the word of their consignor the item is genuine - Then you would stop rubbing in errors that were already promised to be corrected.

There is a difference between an error and fraud and no one at Hunt, Huggins, Scott or whoever was intentionally trying to commit fraud with this helmet - I'd bet double or nothing on the money I lost on Stanford last night on that prop.

**lund6771** · 09-07-2008, 09:33 AM

Re: Hunt Auctions, Huggins & Scott...

Robert does a great job helping anyone and everyone when they need help with a helmet question...

Everyone of his posts have substance and I enjoy reading them because I feel educated...Thanks Robert!!!!

At least for myself....I definitely skip over any post that TRsent puts up here because there is never any substance..I got suckered in on this one because I saw Robert was posting and was looking forward to learning something...but there he is rying to instigate again

I hope that you aren't offended in any way by this guy Robert...because if you quit posting, like other knowlegable people have, the forum will be taking 10 Steps back!!!

**RKGIBSON** · 09-07-2008, 10:09 AM

Re: Hunt Auctions, Huggins & Scott...

Joel,

Come on, this stuff slipped through the cracks. It's not like this is a good replica. This is yard sale stuff that kids play with. Who ever passed this is just not knowledgable enough to be making those decisions on football helmets. Can you admit that. No on brought up fraud but you. You do fuel the fires here with you defending things that have no defense.

I am glad that the auction company reads the forum and actually came here to respond, thank you. I am confident that they will pull the items when the evaluate the information give. I have no problem with them making their own opinion. My original post was meant to say to them, they need someone that knows helmets to clear them for auction. No one can know everything about all kinds of sports items. My guess is the went off the word of the consignor or possibly one of the many worthless LOA's given to junk like this everyday.

Liberals never want anyone to feel blame, cirumstances caused this, right Joel?

Roger

Hunt Auctions, Huggins & Scott...

Hunt Auctions, Huggins & Scott...

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