Joe Montana Game Used Lid?

[mvandor]

http://cgi.ebay.com/Game-Used-Joe-Montana-Helmet_W0QQitemZ300257044696QQihZ020QQcategoryZ868 28QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

Was able to verify the American flag on the helmet rear in a game 3 days prior to the date of the Montana LOA, but placement was different so not the same lid. Further, Getty research seems to indicate Montana wore a Schutt that season with the two air holes on the top on each side and the toothed rear pad which this lid lacks.

Interested in others thoughts on this one. Seller was communicative until I pointed out that issue. The Montana LOA makes it attractive, but the style doesn't seem to fit.

[Bondsgloves]

I was intrested in the helmet as well at the buy it now price. Problem- the seller sent me additional photo's and the helmet doesn't match up to any photos I researched through Getty or other photos I had from 1990. I don't feel to confident in this item. Letter is cool, but the problem you never know if the letter is to that particular helmet. Seller also just got a negative feedback for selling a fake briefcase.

[RKGIBSON]

I ask for a close up of the letter so I could read it and compare it to other 49er letters that I have. He never sent one. From the blurry picture of the letter in the ad, there are a couple of things I did not like.

Roger

[aeneas01]

montana was definitely a bike/schutt guy when he played for the niners (switched to a riddell when he joined the chiefs). but check out getty image #81885194 - montana is clearly sporting a riddell. it appears to be a wd1 and it also has a vacant high chinstrap snap hole just as the one in the ebay ad. heck, looks like a nice match. email the guy and ask for some better photos because the ones he's included in his ad stink. with better photos an actual photo match might be achieved - i have a few better photos of montana from that game that would assist in a match.

gotta love game-used collecting, eh? never seems to be many absolutes! montana wore a bike/schutt for what appears to be all of his career with the niners and all of the 1990 season - yet in december of 1990 at cincinnati he sported a riddell. go figure. did his schutt miss the flight to cincy? did he decide to give riddell a try because, like steve young, was told that it offered better protection vs concussions? perhaps he got his noggin rocked the week before and thought a riddell would offer better protection against the concrete turf in cincinnati. who knows.

whatever the case montana clearly wore a riddell for at least one game. perhaps he tried it out, didn't like it, and it eventually ended up in the hands of the ebay seller. better photos from the seller would be interesting.

robert

[mvandor]

Seller sent me better images below. I note similarities in the pic you provided although the high chinstrap snap on the side visible in your photo is missing from this lid. Also, your pic does not show the flag decal and I can't verify that until January 1991 on a Schutt (bottom pic below). If this is the lid in your Dec 90 pic, then it was fitted with the decal and lost the snap somewhere after that game. There were however, three more games in that season between the one in your pic and the playoff game in Jan. 2001 (bottom pic below). Possible this lid was fitted with the flag decal before one of those games, and that the snap came off sometime after it left the locker room. Can you get any pics of the subsequent games to try and ID the flag decal on a Riddell?

http://thevandors.com/jm_01.jpg
http://thevandors.com/jm_02.jpg
http://thevandors.com/jm_03.jpg
http://thevandors.com/jm_04.jpg

[aeneas01]

the flag decals didn't show up until the 1990 playoffs so montana's helmet in the cincy game would not have been fitted with one. the niners did sport the flag in their two playoff games that year (skins & giants) but montana had returned to his air helmet by then. i don't have any photos of the 3 games between the cincy game & the playoffs so i don't know if montana stuck with the riddell in any of those games. but even if he did it would not have been fitted with a flag.

but here's the rub: given montana apparently wore a riddell only in 1990 and for a very short time, what are the odds a letter would match up so well with the helmet for sale? and what are the odds the chinstrap snap location would happen to jive so well with the sf decal and inverted rivet?

could the ebay helmet be the same one montana can be seen wearing in the cincy game? could bronco hinek have spruced it up a bit with the cool new flag knowing that montana intended to give it a buddy as a gift? one thing is for sure, the ebay helmet combined with the letter and a nice, framed blow-up of montana in the cincy game would make for a pretty persuasive game-used collectible imho. assuming, of course, the letter is legit.

...

[trsent]

the flag decals didn't show up until the 1990 playoffs so montana's helmet in the cincy game would not have been fitted with one. the niners did sport the flag in their two playoff games that year (skins & giants) but montana had returned to his air helmet by then. i don't have any photos of the 3 games between the cincy game & the playoffs so i don't know if montana stuck with the riddell in any of those games. but even if he did it would not have been fitted with a flag.

but here's the rub: given montana apparently wore a riddell only in 1990 and for a very short time, what are the odds a letter would match up so well with the helmet for sale? and what are the odds the chinstrap snap location would happen to jive so well with the sf decal and inverted rivet?

could the ebay helmet be the same one montana can be seen wearing in the cincy game? could bronco hinek have spruced it up a bit with the cool new flag knowing that montana intended to give it a buddy as a gift? one thing is for sure, the ebay helmet combined with the letter and a nice, framed blow-up of montana in the cincy game would make for a pretty persuasive game-used collectible imho. assuming, of course, the letter is legit.

...

If there are no issues with the helmet, and if it is legit, it could have been sitting in the locker room and the flag was put on it after they wore it in a game as it may have been with other helmets awaiting to be worn, but never worn, in a future game.

A safe assumption would be that when they added the flag stickers, all helmets in the equipment room would have been stickered, as maybe they didn't know which helmets would be worn such day?

[RKGIBSON]

Here is some pictures of a original 49er letter written in about the same time.

The letterhead is in gold with the San Fran outlined in red. Maybe his picture is deceiving, but looks different.

All the 49er letters that I have had, around 20 from different years, have some type of watermark. Some also have embossing. Here is the watermark from the 91 letter. I guess its possible for there to be a different watermark but it has to have one. Held up to the light, like the photo attached, is the best way to see them.

The #1 is different but the rest of the fonts are similar. Maybe just a different typewriter.

Roger

[mvandor]

I've asked for additional pics to try and photo match the helmet with your pic Robert, as well as the date stamp. If JM used a Riddell for a game or two and knew he wouldn't be going back to it, then it would be understandable it became a giveaway item. I don't believe the Bartolo organization was cheap, so I doubt it would have made waves like it would have elsewhere.

[aeneas01]

If JM used a Riddell for a game or two and knew he wouldn't be going back to it, then it would be understandable it became a giveaway item. I don't believe the Bartolo organization was cheap, so I doubt it would have made waves like it would have elsewhere.

my sentiments exactly...

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y238/aeneas1/jm.jpg

[aeneas01]

sold - buy it now. did a forum member pick it up?

[commando]

I am not qualified to give an opinion on the helmet itself... I'll leave that to Robert and the experts. However, I will give my professional opinion based on my level of forensics training. First, you must ignore the fact that the letter is written on 49ers letterhead (blank team letterhead can usually be found if you know where to look). Concentrate on the content of the note itself. Would Joe Montana "say" the words written on this letter? I believe the wording of this letter is somewhat suspicious, and gives me the impression it goes out of the way to tell John Q. Reader a story.

"As you know I grabed (sic) it out of my locker especially for you the other day you were here..."

Anyhow, the helmet has been sold and life goes on. I hope the buyer enjoys his purchase.

[lund6771]

if a forum member bought this helmet and would like some videos to conclusively match it..lmk

If I had to take a guess, I think that "Paul" might be Paul Gaines...he had a lot of niners stuff in the early 90's...I have no idea if they were good or bad, but he had pictures of himself with Montana at Joe's house...I bought a Rice helmet from him back then with a LOA from Rice on Niners paperwork, and it was very similar to his one....

[FastLane80]

Did anyone read the seller's most recent feedback?

[David]

As far as the letter itself goes, a busy celebrity or businessman could well have a secretary or assistant composing his letters, which he reads over before signs. Also, you could have PSA or JSA look at the letter to judge if it's authentic.

[David]

A bit off topic, but I saw for auction a while ago a pair of Joe Montana game used cleats, which I believe the consignor won in a charity auction or something on that order. The offered cleats came with the original mailing box, postmarked and with San Francisco 49ers return address. I though, now that's good provenance documentation.

[RKGIBSON]

Lund,
Is this Paul Gaines? I never knew who it was, just that he was the source on a jersey I owned once.

Roger

[lund6771]

yep...that's him

[mvandor]

sold - buy it now. did a forum member pick it up?

I would bet my bringing it to everyone's attention cut the legs out from under me. I was awaiting more info before jumping on this. :(

[RKGIBSON]

I did not mention the differences in the autograph on the helmet and the letter. Here are some real autogaphs. Experts comment in on this.

Roger

[lund6771]

I just checked my Montana jersey that was worn & signed within 3 months of he Jan 1991 letter....the auto is exactly like Rogers and the auto on the helmet...

I'm no auto expert, but the signiture on the letter doesn't look anything like any Montana autos that are on e-bay as well

[beantown]

sold - buy it now. did a forum member pick it up?

I believe the buyer is on this forum ....Dave aka: "CollectGU"...

[RKGIBSON]

I found this picture in a book called 49ers the first fifty years. It is attributed to the 12/3/90 game vs Giants on Monday night.


Roger

[mvandor]

Well, you have a style match, if not a photo match. Clear evidence this style helmet was worn by Joe in Dec. 90. And the sig looks VERY legit on both the helmet and the letter to me, I've seen hundreds of his and it's very distinct.

I'm betting this lid gets flipped. What was Dave's fav auction house again? :)

[aeneas01]

I found this picture in a book called 49ers the first fifty years. It is attributed to the 12/3/90 game vs Giants on Monday night.


Roger

great find roger - clearly a riddell. getty image #76489138 shows montana in that mnf game as well but the photo is not nearly as conclusive as yours. so that was the game before the cincy game. getty image #76989925 shows montana in the game prior to the giants game, against the rams, and montana is sporting his air helmet.


I would bet my bringing it to everyone's attention cut the legs out from under me. I was awaiting more info before jumping on this. :(

yeah, this forum is probably not the best place to ask for info regarding an item you really want - kinda ironic, eh?

...

[lund6771]

Well, you have a style match, if not a photo match. Clear evidence this style helmet was worn by Joe in Dec. 90. And the sig looks VERY legit on both the helmet and the letter to me, I've seen hundreds of his and it's very distinct.

I'm betting this lid gets flipped. What was Dave's fav auction house again? :)


I know nothing about photoshop, so I can't point out the differences in the sig, so I'll try to describe what I see...

on the "M", the pen goes down first and then up to at the beginning of the letter "M"....the letter M on the LOA goes staight up at the beginning

the most obvious difference is when he writes the letter "T", it does a curve, and then he finishes the "ANA" up above and to the right of the "MON" ...in the LOA it's nothing like this...

[lund6771]

the helmet has a black mark on the stripe at the top of the helmet

this distict mark would make it very easy to video match

[RKGIBSON]

I do not have hundreds of Montana autographs but I do have several that I know are real. I have never seen anything like the auto on the letter. I am suspect of that in a whole. The auto on the helmet looks good from my perspective. I would not give 2 cents for the auto on the letter. I have several copies of 49er letters from that era, emailed me by other collectors, and they are all like the one that I posted. The typewriter font is totally different on some.
I do not know if the helmet is real, there is a good possibility. I know this Paul did get things from Montana at some time. I do not like the letter in anyway. That does not make the helmet no good. After the new owner examines it I would like him to post better pictures to verify the color and watermark. If it turns out to be real, it is a significate piece from Montana's career. It would be interesting to trace the ownership.
Roger

[mvandor]

I do not have hundreds of Montana autographs but I do have several that I know are real. I have never seen anything like the auto on the letter. I am suspect of that in a whole. The auto on the helmet looks good from my perspective. I would not give 2 cents for the auto on the letter. I have several copies of 49er letters from that era, emailed me by other collectors, and they are all like the one that I posted. The typewriter font is totally different on some.
I do not know if the helmet is real, there is a good possibility. I know this Paul did get things from Montana at some time. I do not like the letter in anyway. That does not make the helmet no good. After the new owner examines it I would like him to post better pictures to verify the color and watermark. If it turns out to be real, it is a significate piece from Montana's career. It would be interesting to trace the ownership.
Roger

I will only say that as a businessman of over 30 years, I know every order of stationary my companies placed didn't come on identical stock, purchasing departments get the best deals they can, stock becomes unavailable, etc. Further, different departments in organizations often had slight differences in their supplies. As for fonts, 1991 most businesses were by then on computers with a spattering of old IBM electrics hanging on. I think it's safe to assume that there is no guarantee that letters typed for the equipment manager and a star player were typed at the same work station or using the same printer.

As for the signature, the 'J' - the most consistent part of Montana's sig, is spot on. I don't share your discomfort with the sigs on helmet or letter, so long as personal inspection confirms the sig is original ink, not a photo copy or stamp of some kind.

If I had won this, I probably would have sent it in to MEARS for a look and letter of opinion. Given that if it's legit, it'd go at a MUCH higher fee at a major auction house than what it ebayed for, I'd have trouble not flipping it myself.

[RKGIBSON]

Mvando,
I realize that you have never had a real 49er letter in your hands to evaluate, so what you know about this subjet is, nothing. There are no cubicals and work stations in a equipment room. Your rationalizations to your business experience is ignorant.

You have no idea on autographs either. They got one letter right? You need MEARS.

Roger

[mvandor]

Mvando,
I realize that you have never had a real 49er letter in your hands to evaluate, so what you know about this subjet is, nothing. There are no cubicals and work stations in a equipment room. Your rationalizations to your business experience is ignorant.

You have no idea on autographs either. They got one letter right? You need MEARS.

Roger


Thank you for your opinion Roger. I stand by my comments, "ignorant" as you might think them to be. Thanks for sharing.

[lund6771]

In November of 1991 I was in the 49er's equipment room and the EM sold me a Jerry Rice jersey and TYPED me a letter right on the spot

There's to many things that don't add up on this thing for me to feel comfortable about owning it...

1. 90% feedback

2. The seller is some sort of a dealer and the BIN is extremely low for such a rare piece...that is a big one for me...I've always lived by the philosophy that if it seams like a steal, there's probably a reason for it

3. The decal needs explanation

4. There has been no date code established or interior pics provided

5. Show me one pic of a Montana auto ANYWHERE that matches the Signiture on the LOA....

6. The stationary is 100% not from the team...I've had many jerseys from his era and Roger is right on

WAY to many things that don't add up and I'd be highly suprised if the black mark ends up on the video...

If it shows up in auction, and if anyone wants the videos...LMK

I'd be suprised if any auto authenticator would sign off on the LOA sig as being good, so maybe it'll never get to auction

[lund6771]

Mvandor...

would you like copies of the videos?...if it goes in an auction somewhere, and than you can know for sure... Assuming the date code matches up...

regardless of what the letter is or isn't, there will be no question with videos

[mvandor]

Mvandor...

would you like copies of the videos?...if it goes in an auction somewhere, and than you can know for sure... Assuming the date code matches up...

regardless of what the letter is or isn't, there will be no question with videos

No thank you, but I appreciate the offer. My comfort level was not yet reached on the piece (although the letter itself was not the focal point of my concern), as I had requested the date stamp info and specific additional pics to compare to those cited in this thread, but never heard back from the seller. In the interim the piece was purchased through BIN.

Perhaps if this piece resurfaces as a flip, we can all revisit this again.

[aeneas01]

given that i know zero about autographs i found the discussion concerning the montana sig on the team letter very interesting (although i'm a little confused as to why it seemed to get somewhat heated!). frankly i don't know how sig authentication companies go about nailing these things - how they can can conclusively determine whether a sig is authentic or not unless it was painfully obvious - done in crayon by a four-year-old perhaps!

take montana's sig in general - to my untrained eye each of the sigs in the photos that roger provided of the jerseys strike me as very different. and taking a quick look through american memorabilia i see at least a couple of psa/dna montana sigs that seem to be rather consistent with the ebay team letter (including lots 385, 519). in short, to my untrained eye it seems that montana's sig can vary wildly. btw roger i hope you know that i'm not questioning the authenticty of the sigs in your photos - i'm just pointing out that there doesn't seem to be such a thing as a "typical" montana sig!

lund6771 - i'm not sure if i'm following your comments regarding the black mark on the stripe of the ebay helmet. if this mark didn't show up in better game photos or game video it wouldn't disqualify the helmet as being that particular helmet. the mark could have easily occurred after the game. i have many helmets that have marks on them that i know weren't there when i obtained them - marks that even look like transfer paint from game contact. but if such a mark could be found in better game photos or game video i would think it would indeed support the helmet's authenticity...

anyway, going on just the photos of the ebay ad and those supplied by mvandor i would say there's a lot to like about the helmet. further, the ebayers history didn't strike me as particularly sinister - one buyer is claiming a bait and switch but his positive feedback far outweighs the lone negative feedback...


...

[lund6771]

Aneneous....

I'm not a helmet guy, but I really enjoy reading your posts and it's got me intrigued with helmets now...when I see a lot of the pictures that you post when matching items, it doesn't seem that it's a much different process than matching jerseys

for myself, a photo of style match is not good enough to belong in my collection....I go and get the videos of the suppossed game or year that something was worn in and match it that way

When I finally do find the video match, there are so many items that make it match up...not only repairs and hit marks, but EXACT locations of sleeve stripes, NFL shields, sewn on numerals, loose threads...etc etc
It's amazing once you find an exact video match, how many more things start jumping out at you that to make it an identical match...And all of these items are completely different once the player starts wearing a new jersey

the differences are so subtle to the naked eye, but when viewed in this fashion, it's crystal clear...

From my very limited knowledge of helmets...I would assume the same process could be done with matching them....warning label loactions, wear that is on the videos found in videos....the way that the stripes sit on top of the helmet (rarely are they on there perfectly placed)...the 49'ers logo placement...etc etc...the black mark would be maybe 1 out of 20 items to search for

It would seem to me that it would be very easy to match these items...they show close-ups of Montana hundreds of times during a game

FWIW...I almost bought a Montana jersey that came with Bronco Hinek letter a few years ago...the seller sent me photos of the letter and of the jersey...the jersey had lots of dirt and grass stains on it...problem was that after viewing ALL of the videos from 2 seasons, it wasn't close to any game...so I passed on it...I could have easiliy boughten it, "flipped" it to an auction house and made a bunch of $...but I didn't because the wear that was on that jersey was not put on by Joe Montana during a game

It sounds like there is more to this discussion than if the helmet is the real deal or not...it sounds to me that people are looking for it to be "good enough" to "flip" and not concerned enough with it being 100% accurate

[RKGIBSON]

Robert,

I do have some experience with paperwork and numbers verification. It is a big deal in my line of work. I have testified as a expert witness is several cases of fraud on auto related things. This 49er letter is like a birth certificate for this helmet, its pedigree. It is where it originated, supposedly. Being in the game used community from the old day when we had no internet, Getty, and so on, paperwork meant a lot. To me it still does. To evaluate paperwork, or anything for that matter, you need first hand knowledge of real examples to know . I have owned probably 30 to 40 49er jerseys with team paperwork. I have several examples from this era in my possession. I'm sure your knowledge of helmets did not come from looking at E-bay. Real hands on evaluations is how you become as knowledgable as you are. You cannot learn as much as you know from books. I hope you agree with me on that.

In evaluating items there are similarties that are typical on most. There are exceptions and they do not lend credibility without proof. On the letter it does not seem to be typical of examples I have. That is all I said. I posted thing that made me believe that and pictures to back it up. I questioned the item without totally discrediting it.

The autograph is not typical in several ways. I always use examples that I absolutely know or believe to be real. I have no faith in any of these paid authenicators. Their record is tainted at best. The helmet autoraph is good in my opinion. The letter is not. The biggest problem I have with the autograph is the detached loop at the end of the name. All the autographs, that I know are real, this is connected by line to the last of the name. This loop was put on after he finished signing. There are what I believe to be problems with the word Joe to. Really everything about this signature is suspect. The "J" is the best part. With a couple trys you could duplicate that. This letter get back to the origin, how it came from Joe. If it is not authentic it sure puts the credibilty of the helmet in question. The fact that you determined he wore this type helmet for a short period and cannot say it is not the one he worn has lended credibility. When I first saw it on E-bay I thought not his style and the letter is suspect and blew it off. Your research opened eyes and I commend you for that. I look forward to your post and understanding your thoughts. I believe like Lund says, a video search would probably validate or discredit this. When you find a real picture of any item, everything is correct. I buy the flag being added like every other 49er helmet. There will be hundreds of images of Joe in these game DVD's.

I am going to drop the whole subject now. It has sold. He obviously was OK with all the issues raised.

Roger

[gridman80]

I knew Paul many years ago. Visited him at his house in San Jose back around 1995. He befriended many of the players, including Joe. He was full of stories about the niners of the glory years. He claimed that he would trade guns and workout equipment for GU items directly from the players, including JM. The picture of him w/ JOe seems tobear that out. I got a 1986 JM jersey from him that was 100% legit; but it actually came to him in a trade for some steve young stuff from a niner collector named Cooper...Cooper's 'trademark' was to have the player sign the jersey on the NOB on the first letter in a vertical style..mine had that...It sold for $16K in Vintage auction 3 years ago. I got an air helmet from Paul with a letter from Joe as well. Tha is now in the collection of a top QB collector....My take is that some of Paul's stuff was good; some was not; whether he realized it or not is not for me to say. At the end of the day Paul was a good source but when it comes to a helmet such as this...photo match is the only way to authenticate. If someone has the GFC catalogs from about 8-10 years ago I think this helmet was sold at auction by them...It went low because most collectors did not realize Joe wore Riddell for a brief period.

[lund6771]

Hi Gridman....hearing you tell these stories about Paul brings me back down memory lane...I heard them as well...I met him in the early 90's

We still don't know if "Paul" in the letter is Gaines or not...

On a side note, by any chance did you see any of the Cowboys jerseys that he had that he said he recieved from Kevin Gogan?

[gridman80]

sorry partner, I remember Paul telling me about Gogan but I never did see his Cowboys stuff....I don't know what became of Paul. I heard a rumor that he moved up to Washington or Oregon...I'm not quite sure...

[aeneas01]

lund6771 - gotcha. i guess i misunderstood your comment about the black mark on the stripe because, as i mentioned, imo its absence in a photo or video frame would not disqualify the helmet as authentic. you are obviously a savvy collector and understand the importance of research when it comes to example comparison/matching - but imo game used helmets are surprisngly difficult to photo match for many reasons. for example, throughout the season decals can be replaced, facemasks can be swapped out, identifying paint transfers can be buffed out, etc., etc.. and of course the helmets are reconditioned at the end of the year. in short a helmet can actually look quite different from game to game and season to seaon. not to mention that the number of quality closeup photos is also surprisingly small - even when it comes to the game's greatest players.

rkgobson - very, very interesting read and thanks very much for taking the time to go into so much detail. if the team letter is not authentic i would say it casts serious doubts on the helmet. but then it could be a case of an authentic helmet coupled with a fake letter in an effort to increase the helmet's value. whatever the deal i'm just glad i was never bitten by the sig bug - it clearly requires a level of expertise far greater than what i would ever be able to achieve! i'll stick to looking at helmets!

gridman80 - i thought i recognized the helmet as well but don't have it in my database. gfc used to archive their auctions and i have many photos from those sales but not this one. further i have quite a few photos of other game used wd1 niners lids sold over the years and none of them are this helmet.

...

[solarlottry]

I knew Paul many years ago. Visited him at his house in San Jose back around 1995. He befriended many of the players, including Joe. He was full of stories about the niners of the glory years. He claimed that he would trade guns and workout equipment for GU items directly from the players, including JM. The picture of him w/ JOe seems tobear that out. I got a 1986 JM jersey from him that was 100% legit; but it actually came to him in a trade for some steve young stuff from a niner collector named Cooper...Cooper's 'trademark' was to have the player sign the jersey on the NOB on the first letter in a vertical style..mine had that...It sold for $16K in Vintage auction 3 years ago. I got an air helmet from Paul with a letter from Joe as well. Tha is now in the collection of a top QB collector....My take is that some of Paul's stuff was good; some was not; whether he realized it or not is not for me to say. At the end of the day Paul was a good source but when it comes to a helmet such as this...photo match is the only way to authenticate. If someone has the GFC catalogs from about 8-10 years ago I think this helmet was sold at auction by them...It went low because most collectors did not realize Joe wore Riddell for a brief period.

I know this is an old, old thread but what is really interesting about it is that even a thread this old has its value. I just visited "Cooper" last weekend and and he still has a great 49ers collection, just a bit smaller as i have had the good fortune to be able to buy a number of the great shirts he has. One of the Steve Young shirts mentioned in this post i was able to buy. He had traded a mid 80s Montana for 2 Steve Young 1993 gamers with team letters back in 1993. Cooper had 5 Montana shirts at the time and Young was a favorite of his so he made the trade. Another of the Montana shirts was sold via AMI then via Grey Flannel as part of the Gibson collection. Cooper still owns Montana's last 49er gamer and i have an 1989 Russell that he sold me with Bronco letter. Cooper has 49er jerseys from 1946 thru 1994 and in fact has every HOF niner gamer. These kinds of collections are few and far between and i feel lucky that i was able to see 50 years of 49er glory. When Cooper was collecting the game used hobby was in its infancy with things done on a very personal level. His collection came straight out of the locker room sometimes within days of the player wearing the shirt. The Montana i have was worn one week and in his hands the next. The friendship and bonding that took place between the seller (the 49ers) and the fan does not happen anymore and it is sad. Football has become big big fu*king business and thats it. The entire situation is sad as now we have no football and very bleak prospects for Football in the 2011 season.

I mainly collect shirts from the 1988-1994 49ers teams with my main focus the 1994 team. Buying todays players is something that should be done because you like the player, team etc not to make $$$. It seems with all the shirts these guys wear that another is always just around the corner. Try that with a 1988-1994 49er shirt as many were worn the entire season, not just one game. I have a Romo 1993 shirt that was worn the entire season and has at least 30 repairs. Try and find a shirt like that in a player from the last 5 years. One repair and the shirt shows "great use". The game used uniform collecting world has changed over the last 20 years just like the rest of the world. I just hope that us collectors can keep the hobby fun, safe and that the good shirts find their way into the right collections!

[commando]

Hmmmm.... Thanks for bringing this thread back to memory, a discussion from many moons ago. Joe Montana 49ers lid? American flag decal? Sounds Scoreboard-ish to me.