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trsent
03-21-2006, 06:26 PM
I am not posting anymore about the Grey Flannel debate as I made my last post earlier in the day, but 33Bird has called me out on Barry Bonds.

I never once said Barry didn't juice. I did say that he must be found guilty without a doubt, and even then he wasn't breaking the rules of Major League Baseball at the time.

If you asked if I though Barry Bonds ever juiced, I would say "yes" but that doesn't mean he was breaking the rules of the sport at the time.

Put me down however you wish, but don't twist my words, please.

Yankwood
03-21-2006, 07:10 PM
If Barry Bonds wasn't breaking a baseball rule, does this free him from wrong? I mean, wasn't he breaking a law? Isn't taking steroids not prescribed by a doctor against the law? Maybe I misunderstand.

33bird
03-21-2006, 07:15 PM
Cool. No problem there then. Who cares about it being illegal in baseball-It's been ILLEGAL IN THE US since 1991. He's a cheater and liar. Just look at his numbers pre and post steroid use and there is no question that they enhanced his game immensely. It would taint the HOF if they put him in-just as if they put in Pete Rose. But gambling didn't make Rose a better player than everybody else around him, so I'll give the nod to Rose before Bonds. It's not fair to those who didn't cheat and have records. It's not fair to Aaron and Ruth and Maris, etc. Those guys didn't get better when they turned 35 years old-they got steadily worse. Put on em' steroids at age 35 and they would've have kicked ass like Bonds for another 5+years. If it wasn't illegal in baseball (which is wasn't) then why hide it and lie about it? Why not just say I'm using Roids and too bad for you? Because just as in the olympics and football and other sports where it was illegal-if everybody knew you were using you'd would be called a fraud and a cheat and a loser.The only reason it wasn't illegal in baseball is that they didn't think it would ever be a problem in their sport-and really wasn't until the mid to late 80s when Mr. Jose Canseco showed up. Bonds is a cheater and jerk in most everybody's opinion and though a great player and hof thru 1998-he ruined that by juicing from 1999 on. See ya.
G

33bird
03-21-2006, 07:18 PM
Well, in Trsent's opinion the laws of baseball supersede the laws of our own land. Whatever--I'm not trying to be rude, but I just can't fathom your reasoning at all on many of your posts.
G

sfgiants452
03-21-2006, 08:30 PM
Hi,

I am a huge Bonds fan and I have been so since I was 8. So I have to agree with trsent. Yes he did break the rules (If he did do it!!!) of the land, so punish him for that. Not in the game of baseball. They weren't illegal in the game during that time. Finally, the only way I will believe he took them is if he fails a grug test. Go Barry and go Giants!!!!

Yankwood
03-21-2006, 08:38 PM
I'm sure there's nothing in the rules about murder either so is that alright too?

33bird
03-21-2006, 08:49 PM
The only people (and they are getting fewer all the time) that defend Bonds are the Die-Hard Bond's fans that are still around. The thing is, he probably could commit murder or rape someone, and guess what? Nothing against it in the rules of baseball land, so he's still a HOF, but go ahead and put him in jail. Geez people.
G

sfgiants452
03-21-2006, 09:03 PM
You can't compare murder to steriods.

allstarsplus
03-21-2006, 09:12 PM
In the 1930's, anabolic steroids were found to increase muscle mass so these drugs didn't just appear on the scene in the past 10 to 15 years.

In 1956, Dianabol (Methandrostenolone) was first marketed in the
United States legally, clearing the way for the use of anabolics by U. S.
athletes. Steroids were the rage in the 70's amongst bodybuilders and powerlifters and were used by many football players.

We can probably say with 100% certainty that Babe Ruth wasn't on steroids.

I don't think we can say that with certainty about any other HR hitter since 1956. So for everyone that wants to point fingers, I for one never would have suspected Palmeiro given his body shape.

So lets remember innocent until proven guilty and anything else is pure speculation.

Mark McGwire hit 49 HRs as a skinny rookie. Even Canseco said he was not doing 'roids back then.

Out of all the 500 HR club, only Palmeiro ever tested Positive.

33bird
03-21-2006, 09:21 PM
That's bunk and you know it. I guess OJ was innocent? Just because they were hardly ever tested or had the know how to hide (which bonds did) the steroids from showing up in tests, doesn't mean they were innocent. I don't have a problem with Big Mac hitting 49 roid free. I do have a problem with him hitting 21 more than that on the juice. His nonconfession did him in. Sosa forgot how to speak English. Palmerio lied his A-- off. Bonds is no different. FBI documents, voice recorded tapes, friends, nonfriends, girlfriends, exteammates, 15 pounds of muscle in one summer, blah, blah, blah, blah-I could go on forever. Get your head out of the sand son. A rose is a rose is a rose. See ya.
Birdie

trsent
03-22-2006, 01:45 AM
I'm sure there's nothing in the rules about murder either so is that alright too?

How come someone always compares murder to taking steroids?

Tell me about apples and mangoes some other day, but don't make an comment stating that you want to compare drug use to taking another human life.

It's not even debatable, so stop the associations.

trsent
03-22-2006, 01:47 AM
The only people (and they are getting fewer all the time) that defend Bonds are the Die-Hard Bond's fans that are still around. The thing is, he probably could commit murder or rape someone, and guess what? Nothing against it in the rules of baseball land, so he's still a HOF, but go ahead and put him in jail. Geez people.
G

Again, an absolutely idiotic comments.

YOU WANT TO COMPARE MURDER AND RAPE TO STEROIDS? GET OFF MY BACK BECAUSE YOU ARE OUT OF LINE COMPARING THEM AND MAKING IT MEAN THAT IF WE DEFEND STEROID USE WE ARE DEFENDING RAPE AND MURDER?

I can tell you, your comparisons are out of line and shut your fingers about the comparisons - That is BS and you should be ashamed at yourself you making such a stupid comment.

trsent
03-22-2006, 01:58 AM
It's not fair to those who didn't cheat and have records. It's not fair to Aaron and Ruth and Maris, etc. Those guys didn't get better when they turned 35 years old-they got steadily worse. Put on em' steroids at age 35 and they would've have kicked ass like Bonds for another 5+years.

Aaron had his best Home Run season in 1971...at the age of 37. "Steadily worse"?

Ruth averaged 32 HRs a seasons over his career. From age 35 to when he ended he averaged 33 HRs (sort of false stat as his first 4 seasons where largely as a pitcher but I need anything to show people talk without doing homework here)

Maris hit 61 in 1961. His next best years were 39 in 1960 and 33 in 1962. In his other 10 seasons he never hit more than 28 in any year. Roger Maris was not a steady superstar such as Babe Ruth, Henry Aaron, Mickey Mantle, Joe DiMaggio and Willie Mays. He had a big year.

------------------------------------------------------

What you miss by throwing this whole debate in my face because you didn't like my comments on another topic is that i value your opinions and you should value mine. You don't have to agree, but if we didn't have debate and two political parties (that count) in this country what would be have?

I know, communism. Maybe you like that style because every comment you do not appreciate you think we should be compared to approving murder and rape.

Once again, I withdraw myself from this thread. No need to continue this conversation. If Barry Bonds did anything wrong, I hope his attorney is ready because we do have a legal system that is fair - Just ask OJ.

(No I didn't just do that, hehe)

allstarsplus
03-22-2006, 08:06 AM
This is clearly the mostly hotly debated subject in baseball today. In my Post last night, I stated the facts of how long anabolic steroids have been around. Joel Alpert gave some great facts. These players HR stats and their ages are fact. As far as I am concerned, Pandora's box is now open and I am suspicious about any post-1956 athlete.

Do I have my own opinions about Barry? Sure I do. I have met him socially many times over the years and saw his transformation. Am I suspicious? Sure. Am I 100% sure----no.

Anyone that enhances using anabolic steroids is a cheater and a liar. I would throw blood dopers into the same category.

I was cheated myself as an athlete because I know I competed against steroid freaks. It pissed me off because these guys were real cocky about it when the subject came up. This was in the 70's and Dianabol was readily available at most gyms. Arnold Schwarzenegger and Franco Columbo posters hung on the walls of gyms which replaced the old Charles Atlas posters. When 33Bird states
15 pounds of muscle in one summer, blah, blah, blah, blah-I could go on forever. Get your head out of the sand son. A rose is a rose is a rose. See ya.
Birdie with the average person you are right but you take some genetically gifted athletes that change their diets and strength train and it can be done. It's called hard work and dedication. College Seniors playing the line or linebacker do it all the time when getting ready for the NFL.

Don't take this as I am defending Barry. I am not. He can defend himself. McGwire did himself no help in front of Congress, but I will say his 49 HR Rookie Record in 1987 was amazing. These records will always seem tainted now.

Yankwood
03-22-2006, 08:31 AM
The point is not that murder=steroids, the point is that MLB cannot make a list of everything in the world that it is against and you should be smart enough to realize it. It's just that when people defend Barry Bonds they point out that it was not against the rules in baseball. It doesn't have to be pointed out by baseball. Baseball doesn't tell me everything I can and can't do, or should and shouldn't do. Laws and common sense do and people who are making excuses for a terrible human being are not paying attention to either. They're just sucking the rear end of someoe that they root for or idolize. Face the facts, which are, he had the numbers to get to the hall but decided to cheat (he knew he was and so do you) and now his numbers are a joke and MLB probably wishes he would just go away because he's become an embarrASSment to the game. The numbers are a joke. The analogy about murder and steroids is not to say they are equal but I'll bet there is nothing in the rulebooks about adultry either. Now defend that.

Yankwood
03-22-2006, 08:37 AM
You can't compare murder to steriods.Nobody did and stop assuming I did. The point is that baseball cannot list everything that violates a rule and it's ridiculous to think is can publish a book that encapsulates every possible infraction. Speeding is breaking the law and everyone does it. Does that make it right-no, but it has no bearing on baseball. Steroids do. Everone taking them in all sports knows it's wrong.

allstarsplus
03-22-2006, 10:15 AM
Yankwood - I don't think anyone that has posted believe steroids used for muscle enhancement is right. Anyone that has used it for those purposes are cheaters. There are other substances taken for performance enhancement which are questionable too. Palmeiro is the only 500 HR club hitter that has tested positive under the MLB system.

The comments you take as defending Bonds simply state that nobody knows 100% that Bonds knowingly used steroids. The "cream" incident is certainly open for debate. This new book (published for big profit) is certainly open for debate.

This forum is great because you can formulate your own opinions. I will give an opinion of Barry Bonds pre-1999 that I believe if he retired then he would have been a 1st ballot HOFer based on his stats which were amazing up to then in the Regular season.

JETEFAN
03-22-2006, 10:22 AM
BOTTOM LINE......STERIOD BONDS IS CHASING THE MOST SACRED RECORD IN THIS GREAT GAME OF BASEBALL, CHASING TWO OF THE GAMES GREATEST WHO REACHED THEIR GOALS ON GOD GIVEN TALENT ( MAYBE THE BEER AND HOT DOGS HELPED RUTH!). FOR ANYONE TO THINK HE WAS NOT USING, BY THE WAY HE ALREADY ADMITTED TO IT, THOUGH HE SAYS HE DIDN'T KNOW WHAT IT WAS...:eek: :confused: :cool: ;), GET BACK TO REALITY!!! BONDS + STERIODS = ADVANTAGE!!!!!!!
LET'S REMEMBER BONDS FOR BEING ONE OF THE GREATS BEFORE STEROIDS, ANYTHING AFTER THAT IS CACA!!!!!

Yankwood
03-22-2006, 11:12 AM
YES! And if anyone says they don't know 100% whether Bonds took steroids, say hello to the ostrich right next to you, cuz I don't wanna hear it!

33bird
03-22-2006, 11:54 AM
My man Trsent. Let me preface this by saying I enjoy most of your posts. You're very active on here and I like that. But, I just don't get your reasoning. I guess it's kindof like debating religion. Hardly anybody ever changes their mind when you fight about it. Anyway, were not saying taking steroids is equal to murder or rape. Just that murder and rape aren't specifically in the MLB rules. But if bonds murdered or raped he would pay the price for breaking that law. Steroids was against the law so MLB didn't have to put it in their rules-just like murder and rape. Your Aaron analogy wasn't a good point. He hit 35+ HRs at age 37? Big deal. Did he hit 73 at age 37 like Bonds? 73-37? That's a big difference. Throw Aaron on the juice maybe he could have hit 70 instead of 37. I know there are a few exceptions to the rule, but almost ALL players start declining at around age 35. They don't suddenly become greater for the next 6 or 7 years. As for the guy who keeps posting on here that Roids were around since 1956 and we can't trust any player since then, is just idiotic. Show us some good proof of that. I've never heard any. Except that Tom House or somebody tried it for a little bit or something. But the Bonds proof is everywhere. You bonds fans just won't see the truth. It's all there but you refuse to see it. Maybe you have his game used Rookie jersey in your closet and you can't accept it's worth half of what you paid for it now. I don't know. That's my 2 cents.
Birdie

mwbosoxfan
03-22-2006, 01:22 PM
As for the guy who keeps posting on here that Roids were around since 1956 and we can't trust any player since then, is just idiotic.
Birdie

I can’t speak for “the guy who says roids have been around since 1956” (actually he says since the 30’s), but I don’t think what he has stated is idiotic. I think 99.99 percent of people believe that Bonds is guilty of steroid use, based on all of the circumstantial evidence that has come to light. The evidence came to light because of an investigation. The investigation was initiated on suspicion. There are sources of circumstantial evidence indicting hundreds of players for steroid use and use of other illegal substances. Some of these sources are less substantial than what has been published about Bonds as of late, but nevertheless, they exist.

So, we throw Barry out of baseball, strip all of his records away. Done, gone. I don’t have a problem with that. But, what do we do now. More books are written, more players are indicted. With enough resources and time, I’m sure reporters can find enough evidence about the truth about hundreds of players that used steroids to gain an advantage. Some of these players will be found guilty, and believe me, they will be found guilty. Not from a stored urine sample in a lab from 10 or 15 years ago, but because after probing deep enough, there is overwhelming circumstantial evidence to make the same conclusion as Barry Bonds. Fine, again not a problem. None of these players are chasing a home run record, but they are now gone, too.

But wait, one of those players hit a game winning home run in game 7 of a league championship series and went on to win the World Series. One player actually pitched a four hitter in game six of a World Series to win the series. Another player stole a base in game 4 of an LCS game, was safe by an inch, and went on to win that game and 7 more straight games to a World Series Championship. What do we do with those records?

My point is that there is evidence if we want to find it, all the way back to 1956 or the 1930’s, or whenever. Nobody who loves baseball likes any of the abuse, cheating, or anything else dirty that has happened in the sport throughout its history, especially the steroid issue. If you throw Bonds out, I don’t know how baseball can simply go forward from here without going backwards.

trsent
03-22-2006, 04:03 PM
Where have you gone, Joe DiMaggio?

yanks12025
03-22-2006, 06:58 PM
Ok
All i have to say is Bonds Sucks. And that if it was not against baseball and then why did it take him four years to tell everyone. And does anybody know what that book is called.

trsent
03-22-2006, 07:22 PM
All i have to say is Bonds Sucks. And that if it was not against baseball and then why did it take him four years to tell everyone. And does anybody know what that book is called.

Do you think he finishes the job?

I don't know the name of the book, but here is a picture of the cover:

577

33bird
03-22-2006, 07:23 PM
Where have you gone, Joe DiMaggio?
That's exactly right! Thank you Trsent. Your best quote ever. Where have all the non-cheaters gone? I'll take Teddy Ballgame and Joe D. over Big Mac and Barry Bonds anyday. Could you imagine Joe D. and Teddy if they roided up for 1/2 their careers? Awesome baby! But I'm glad they didn't or 2/3 of America's fans wouldn't accept anything they did. Including me.
Birdie

sfgiants452
03-22-2006, 08:29 PM
I am not asking this question so we can argue for the next hour. I just want a honest answer. For all of the people that have read these posts, think of your all-time favorite player. The player that you loved since you were a kid. Now lets say they were accused of something. Would you or would you not defend them to the very end? Even if there may be evidence saying that they did a crime. Would you or would you not defend him until that judge says that he was guilty? Please give an honest answer. THANKS

Anthony

33bird
03-22-2006, 08:49 PM
It would be tuff. I understand that. You'll probably dislike me even more after I tell you this: My favorite current player is Jeff Kent. Sorry. If you love Bonds you probably don't care for kent. But, in all honesty. if all the evidence came out against kent that has come against Bonds, I would say see you later, sell my gamer stuff of kent, and count my losses. I wouldn't stick my head in the sand and say, "I don't care if there's mountains of evidence, he's innocent until convicted or until he confesses." He might never get convicted-ala, OJ Simpson. He might not confess for 20 years, or never-ala, Peter Rose. It doesn't matter. He's 100% guilty either way. Just like OJ and Pete. I would say, "Say it ain't so Barry." Then I'd move on and fine me a clean, noncheating superstar to follow. I'm not saying he's not a HOF. I'm not saying he wasn't one of the greatest ever. He is. BUT, everything he's done since 1999 is tainted. Especially all the HR's. I've really read up on everything. All the articles, books, etc. I wanted him to be clean-he's not. There's just no way. In my opinion, I think he should retire and not taint the all-time HR records of Ruth and Aaron. He's already tainted Maris's 61 record (I think Maris still has it since Sosa and Big Mac juiced in 98 and after). Put him in the hof eventually, not first ballot, and on his HOF plaque mention that he used steroids from 99-05 (or whatever) so some of his marks are questionable/tainted at best. Same with Big Mac. Same with Pete Rose. Just put on his plaque he was removed from pro baseball for gambling, but put him in. I put in rose before: Bonds, Sosa, and Big Mac. Just my 2 cents. Just something to think about. I don't think we can just say, "Oh well, it happened, let's move on." SOMETHING needs to happen to them. I'm not exactly sure what, but I like my idea for the HOF thing.
Birdie

yanks12025
03-22-2006, 08:53 PM
I have to agree with you there. I would with the player i like. But come on it aint time till the real truth comes out about bonds. Yes alot of ppl lobe bonds and also now alot of ppl hate him. I could care less about him and steriods. I really just dont want him to brake babe ruth and Hank aarons records because they did it for the game. And bonds had to cheat to get to the top.

Bonds Hater

sfgiants452
03-22-2006, 08:58 PM
I am glad you understand and I hope everybody else does. I have been watching Bonds most of my life and hard for me to not defend him. The only way other people will understand this, is if they had that one favorite player that they loved since they were little. Thanks for the honest answer.

Anthony

bigtime59
03-22-2006, 09:00 PM
I'm glad someone else brought OJ into this before I decided to post:
During the trial, I was asked if I thought OJ was guilty, or if LAPD had planted evidence. My answer was "yes." I believe that OJ did it, and I believe that LAPD planted evidence to ensure a slam dunk at trial.
The point? I believe Barry Bonds is guilty of taking steroids, HGH, whatever. I also believe that MLB ownership deliberately looked the other way, as balls flew over the walls, and fannies filled the seats emptied by the egregiously stupid 1994 strike/lockout. Both sides are to blame for the fact that records of the 1995-2005 period are going to be tainted by the cloud of steroids.
But, let's face it, kids...we may hold baseball's record books sacred, and believe they allow us to accurately compare players from different eras...and we're completely full of s**t. I'm 5'8, 185. Never taken a performance enhancing drug...never even taken a nutritional supplement. By today's standards, I'm probably below average in height, and around average in weight. By the standards of the 1930s, I'm tall and fat. Even without performance enhancing drugs, a different breed of people (bigger, faster, stronger) is playing a different game in different places than that which was played in the (pick your decade here). If Barry Bonds breaks Ruth's record I doubt 500 people outside of San Francisco is going to celebrate it. I doubt even Barry, narcissist that he is, is stupid or crazy enough to try to go after Aaron at this point. If Aaron was dead, maybe. But not when he's alive.
I'd put Bonds in the HOF...for what he did through 1998. And on his plaque, I'd note every drug he took, every injection, everything he did to damage himself in the long term for the good of the short term.
Steroid use isn't like murder. It's like stealing. Stealing from the fans, from the players who don't juice, from the game itself. Stealing is against the laws of the land, and I would hope, against the laws of baseball, too.
Mark Sutton
bigtime59

allstarsplus
03-22-2006, 09:37 PM
Steroid use isn't like murder. It's like stealing. Stealing from the fans, from the players who don't juice, from the game itself. Stealing is against the laws of the land, and I would hope, against the laws of baseball, too.
Mark - Well written post.