Heritage Lot 710 - 2008 USA Olympic Basketball Team Practice Worn Jerseys Lot of 12, Signed

[trsent]

Can anyone help me find any photos from the USA Basketball Teams 2008 Open Practices (they were all open from what I remember) that show the players wears the jerseys to match the ones in the current Heritage Auctions Lot 710 - http://sports.ha.com/common/view_item.php?Sale_No=710&Lot_No=20034#Photo (http://sports.ha.com/common/view_item.php?Sale_No=710&Lot_No=20034#Photo) - As I cannot find any.

I have emailed my concerns to Heritage, but I thought maybe someone on here has more photos than I was able to find on Getty Images.

The Heritage Auctions jerseys have two issues that I immediately find. First, the letter "A" in "USA" on the blue side of jersey has a white star as the center of the letter "A" on all Getty Images photos I can find, while the jerseys in the Heritage Auctions listing all have blue stars.

Second, on the white side of the jerseys in the listings from Heritage Auctions, all of the jerseys show a clear, large background panel over the Nike Swoosh. All the images I find on Getty Images either do not show any panel behind the Nike Swoosh or if one is visible, it is considerable smaller.

I was thinking since the public was also allowed at the USA Team Basketball practices, maybe someone on here could provide photos to help match my concerns or match the jerseys found in the current Heritage Auctions Lot 710.

Here are images that concern me from Getty Images:

15054

15055

15056

15057

15058

Finally, here is a copy of the letter I am awaiting a reply from Heritage Auctions about these jerseys. Maybe they can go to the trainer who supplied these jerseys to provide photos of the players wearing identical jerseys before the auction ends in a few days.

I have a question about lot 710 in the current sports auction. First, jersey #10 - Kobe Bryant - Is the Star in the letter "A" for "USA" in white or blue? All the other ones you show the blue side of the jersey have blue stars but you do not show the blue side of the Kobe jersey. The only photos I can find of these jerseys from practices show the stars always in white.

Also, the Nike Swoosh on the front of each jersey has a clearly visible patch on the front, but when you look at photos of these jerseys from practices on Getty Images, the patch is not visible. Is this common for an obvious patch to show through on your images clearly but not on images of the player wearing the same jersey?

Can you please advise how you can be sure these were worn jerseys when the Stars in the letter "A" in USA on the blue jerseys appear to be wrong (all blue on your jerseys while the ones the players wore were all white) as I do not know how you can verify these as practice worn with no proof from open practices which were well photographed to support these jerseys as practice used.

I will post any reply I receive from Heritage Auctions here but at the same time I figure if anyone can offer any other images other than Getty Images to support these Jerseys as practice used I would appreciate their response as the auction ends in just eight days.

[allstarsplus]

The other difference is a V neck vs a round neck in the Heritage photos.

Hopefully they can produce some photos!

[wjonesIII]

Can anyone help me find any photos from the USA Basketball Teams 2008 Open Practices (they were all open from what I remember) that show the players wears the jerseys to match the ones in the current Heritage Auctions Lot 710 -

I am not sure the practices were open to all. I think they were just open to the media and guests of the team. If you look at the pictures, the gym doesn't appear to be full. In a big city like Vegas, I would assume open practices would have led to a full gym.

[trsent]

I am not sure the practices were open to all. I think they were just open to the media and guests of the team. If you look at the pictures, the gym doesn't appear to be full. In a big city like Vegas, I would assume open practices would have led to a full gym.

Ok, so the media was present at all practices. I gues it doesn't matter if the public was there - The media took photographs galore!

It still doesn't explain how Heritage Auctions can sell these as practice used jerseys when we have already found three flaws with them (star color, neck style and Swoosh patch) and Heritage Auctions has not replied to my email about my genuine concerns.

[wjonesIII]

Ok, so the media was present at all practices. I gues it doesn't matter if the public was there - The media took photographs galore!

It still doesn't explain how Heritage Auctions can sell these as practice used jerseys when we have already found three flaws with them (star color, neck style and Swoosh patch) and Heritage Auctions has not replied to my email about my genuine concerns.

The media was present at all of the Team USA practices? Is that a fact? I am wondering because I watched the road to redemption series after I saw these jerseys and there is at least one scene which shows the players wearing these same jersey numbers, but the jerseys are a different style that the ones you posted.

[trsent]

The media was present at all of the Team USA practices? Is that a fact? I am wondering because I watched the road to redemption series after I saw these jerseys and there is at least one scene which shows the players wearing these same jersey numbers, but the jerseys are a different style that the ones you posted.

If there were cameras, there must have been media, right?

I just found four emails in my junk email folder from a guy claiming to the consignor, but he says he is barred from this forum but Heritage Auctions has ignored my email about these jerseys.

I do not deal with consignors, I deal with the person selling the items, right? The consignor has some excuse that these were worn before the Las Vegas practices, maybe in 2007. They were advertised as 2008 jerseys from Las Vegas so I do not know how they came before then.

I would expect a major auction house such as Heritage Auctions to address my concerns, but they have a chip on their shoulder so I guess they can ignore emails from potential bidders about concerns.

As for the alleged consignor's concern, he should ask Heritage Auctions why they have ignored my email about my concern. Also he should contact Game Used Universe and attempt to have his account restored so he can post here as GUU doesn't suspend accounts without just reasons I have found.

[wjonesIII]

If there were cameras, there must have been media, right?

I just found four emails in my junk email folder from a guy claiming to the consignor, but he says he is barred from this forum but Heritage Auctions has ignored my email about these jerseys.

I do not deal with consignors, I deal with the person selling the items, right? The consignor has some excuse that these were worn before the Las Vegas practices, maybe in 2007. They were advertised as 2008 jerseys from Las Vegas so I do not know how they came before then.

I would expect a major auction house such as Heritage Auctions to address my concerns, but they have a chip on their shoulder so I guess they can ignore emails from potential bidders about concerns.

As for the alleged consignor's concern, he should ask Heritage Auctions why they have ignored my email about my concern. Also he should contact Game Used Universe and attempt to have his account restored so he can post here as GUU doesn't suspend accounts without just reasons I have found.

Here is the item description:

"2008 USA Olympic Basketball Team Practice Worn Jerseys Lot of 12, Signed. A trainer at the Las Vegas practice facilities for the US Olympic basketball team is the source for this incredible collection of worn and autographed shirts from the Team Redeem, which properly reclaimed the Gold Medal for the Americans in Beijing. Each reversible mesh shirt exhibits nice wear, and is signed by the superstar who used it. Included are James, Bryant, Anthony, Wade, Kidd, Bosh, Redd, Williams, Paul, Boozer, Prince and Howard. Tremendous break down value here, though it would be a shame to break up the complete set. An exciting opportunity to connect with the greatest talents in the game today. LOA from James Spence Authentication (autographs). Guide Value or Estimate: $1,500 - up."

I also received an email from the consignor and he made a few valid points.

1. Joel says that the jerseys were advertised by Heritage as 2008 jerseys from Las Vegas. Nowhere in the description does it say that. It says 2008 USA Basketball team practice worn jerseys, sourced from a trainer at the Las Vegas practice facilities. Joel, maybe Heritage wants you to read more carefully. why would they respond to an accusation that they described something wrong, when they didn't actually describe it that way. You read it wrong. These jerseys are from the 2008 USA basketball team players. That is obvious as all 12 players on the team signed the jerseys.

2. I was told that these jerseys were the jerseys worn by the layers before they were given the new style of practice jerseys that you posted images of. I was also told that not every team USA workout and practice was over the last year was open to media. I was told that the jerseys you posted images of were brand new, and were issued to the players for the start of the open media practices in Vegas. All the players had made a three year commitment to the team. This leaves 3 years worth of practices and workouts these could have been worn at. Joel, do you have images from every practice the USA team has had over the last three years, including the 2008 practices prior to open media practices in Vegas?

3. The jerseys are from the personal trainer to players including, but not limited to Kobe Bryant, LeBron James, Chris Paul, Dwyane Wade, etc. The consignor has confirmed that the personal trainer was at the USA practice facilities all week with the players. The trainer says he personally witnessed the players wearing these jerseys.

I do now the consignor, and I have been told that he is working on getting a letter signed by the trainer. I think there are a lot of people on this site who pretend t know everything, and do not take into account the details. I posted in a similar thread about 0062 tags vs. 6200 tags. If somebody can prove to me that every Team USA practice over the last few years has been photographed, and that the images have been posted online, that would be one thing. But to accuse an auction house, a consignor, and a player trainer of peddling fake jerseys based on the lack of a photo available online does not seem fair to me.

[wjonesIII]

This information should help any concerned people. I am sure USA basketball would be able to shed some light on the situation.

http://www.usabasketball.com/inside.php?page=contact

There are several ways in which fans, officials, media, coaches, players and family members can contact the USA Basketball staff.

You may write a letter, call or fax the USA Basketball office:
USA Basketball
5465 Mark Dabling Boulevard
Colorado Springs, CO 80918-3842
Telephone: 719-590-4800
Fax: 719-590-4811

All media inquiries should be directed to Craig Miller, Caroline Williams or Jenny Maag in the USA Basketball communications department at 719-590-4800.

All Letter of Clearance inquiries should be sent to: LOC@usabasketball.com. This is for Letters of Clearance ONLY. It is NOT for general inquiries.

For Fan Mail / general inquiries only, send your message via FanMail@usabasketball.com. This e-mail address is not always checked daily and due to the volume of messages received by USA Basketball, it is not always possible to respond in a timely manner. And please, do not send attachments, as any emails containing attachments WILL be deleted.

[trsent]

Here is the item description:

"2008 USA Olympic Basketball Team Practice Worn Jerseys Lot of 12, Signed. A trainer at the Las Vegas practice facilities for the US Olympic basketball team is the source for this incredible collection of worn and autographed shirts from the Team Redeem, which properly reclaimed the Gold Medal for the Americans in Beijing. Each reversible mesh shirt exhibits nice wear, and is signed by the superstar who used it. Included are James, Bryant, Anthony, Wade, Kidd, Bosh, Redd, Williams, Paul, Boozer, Prince and Howard. Tremendous break down value here, though it would be a shame to break up the complete set. An exciting opportunity to connect with the greatest talents in the game today. LOA from James Spence Authentication (autographs). Guide Value or Estimate: $1,500 - up."

I also received an email from the consignor and he made a few valid points.

1. Joel says that the jerseys were advertised by Heritage as 2008 jerseys from Las Vegas. Nowhere in the description does it say that. It says 2008 USA Basketball team practice worn jerseys, sourced from a trainer at the Las Vegas practice facilities. Joel, maybe Heritage wants you to read more carefully. why would they respond to an accusation that they described something wrong, when they didn't actually describe it that way. You read it wrong. These jerseys are from the 2008 USA basketball team players. That is obvious as all 12 players on the team signed the jerseys.

2. I was told that these jerseys were the jerseys worn by the layers before they were given the new style of practice jerseys that you posted images of. I was also told that not every team USA workout and practice was over the last year was open to media. I was told that the jerseys you posted images of were brand new, and were issued to the players for the start of the open media practices in Vegas. All the players had made a three year commitment to the team. This leaves 3 years worth of practices and workouts these could have been worn at. Joel, do you have images from every practice the USA team has had over the last three years, including the 2008 practices prior to open media practices in Vegas?

3. The jerseys are from the personal trainer to players including, but not limited to Kobe Bryant, LeBron James, Chris Paul, Dwyane Wade, etc. The consignor has confirmed that the personal trainer was at the USA practice facilities all week with the players. The trainer says he personally witnessed the players wearing these jerseys.

I do now the consignor, and I have been told that he is working on getting a letter signed by the trainer. I think there are a lot of people on this site who pretend t know everything, and do not take into account the details. I posted in a similar thread about 0062 tags vs. 6200 tags. If somebody can prove to me that every Team USA practice over the last few years has been photographed, and that the images have been posted online, that would be one thing. But to accuse an auction house, a consignor, and a player trainer of peddling fake jerseys based on the lack of a photo available online does not seem fair to me.

Wow, you were emailed by the consignor also! Sounds like you are the consignor, David Archibald, as from the first time you posted about this you have been on his side.

Why don't you do me a favor, ask Mr. Archibald about the used shoes he had from this same Dream Team where all the autographs were deemed unable to authenticate. Please explain the history about those shoes and then compare it to these jerseys that you seem very adamant about as if Mr. Archibald, who claims to be the consignor and is also barred from posting on this site, has emailed me emails that appear identical to your posts.

There is no photo evidence to match these jerseys to the 2008 Las Vegas practices as that is what the Heritage Auctions claims the jerseys to come from. If there is some confusion, I am still awaiting Heritage Auctions to respond to my email (except for an automated email that says I will receive a reply).

Finally, since you did not post your email address with your posts, how does Mr. Archibald have your email? It makes me wonder where you came from to post so similarly to emails received from David Archibald, who claims to be the consignor of these jerseys. I would think he would ask Heritage Auctions to address my concerns, as I have never had an alleged consignor email me about concerns, they have always had the auction house deal with me.

Maybe that is why David Archibald is barred from posting on this site so he has to use an account such as "wjonesIII" to post his beliefs. Then again, I have once again blocked emails from Mr. Archibald as I do not believe I should be abused by a alleged consignor while an auction house will not answer genuine questions.

I do not care about any replies on behalf of David Archibald anymore - Unless he wishes to make us more stories about this similar USA Basketball shoes that have signatures that are unable to authenticate and how after these shoes there are now concerns about similar jerseys, maybe from the same source?

In the meantime, USA Basketball jerseys weather worn in 2006, 2007 or 2008 cannot be photo style matched on any web site. If there was such photo matches, I assume "wjonesIII" would post photos on this site as I have spent enough time looking and there are plenty of photos but none match this style of jersey from any practice.

[wjonesIII]

Keep fishing Joel. The jerseys were sold as practice worn by the players trainer. Without pictures, I can't prove they were worn. What Heritage can tell by simply handling the jerseys is the same thing Grey Flannel can tell you. These jerseys show the appearance of jerseys that have been worn.

JSA used their exemplar library and found the signatures to match known exemplars of the players signatures. I don't care what anyone says, JSA has been unable to authenticate genuine autographs of LeBron, Wade, etc. a countless number of times due to the difficulty of authenticating signatures of these modern layers. Anyone who has got LeBron in person to sign, and then had the signatures fail JSA or PSA will tell you the same thing. It doesn't make JSA or PSA bad, it just means they are very careful and that they will fail real signatures because of lack of like exemplars.

The signatures on the LeBron USA shoes do not match perfectly with the signature on the LeBron USA jersey. LeBron's signature on UDA items is not consistent, and that is easy to prove and obvious.

I have already said I know David Archibald, and I do have a financial interest in making sure the facts about these jerseys are available. GUU deprives it's members of certain comments and opinions, so I am making this post. Check the IP addresses. I will not comment on this thread anymore, as it is obvious you think that JSA made a mistake on these jerseys, and you think the trainer is a liar. I do not know why Heritage doesn't replay to you, but I know Joe Orlando just wrote an article for PSA about what he thinks about people like you who attack auction houses via threads before giving them ample time to first respond.

The jerseys Heritage are auctioning are the exact jerseys the trainer said were player worn. When and where they were worn, I don't know for a fact but I have held these jerseys in my own hand and you can verify from the trainer that they went from the trainer to William Jones III to David Archibald. Those are the facts. I have no more to offer to this thread. if anyone here knows any of the Redeem Team players, please ask them to verify the authenticity of these jerseys.

[trsent]

Keep fishing Joel. The jerseys were sold as practice worn by the players trainer. Without pictures, I can't prove they were worn. What Heritage can tell by simply handling the jerseys is the same thing Grey Flannel can tell you. These jerseys show the appearance of jerseys that have been worn.

JSA used their exemplar library and found the signatures to match known exemplars of the players signatures. I don't care what anyone says, JSA has been unable to authenticate genuine autographs of LeBron, Wade, etc. a countless number of times due to the difficulty of authenticating signatures of these modern layers. Anyone who has got LeBron in person to sign, and then had the signatures fail JSA or PSA will tell you the same thing. It doesn't make JSA or PSA bad, it just means they are very careful and that they will fail real signatures because of lack of like exemplars.

The signatures on the LeBron USA shoes do not match perfectly with the signature on the LeBron USA jersey. LeBron's signature on UDA items is not consistent, and that is easy to prove and obvious.

I have already said I know David Archibald, and I do have a financial interest in making sure the facts about these jerseys are available. GUU deprives it's members of certain comments and opinions, so I am making this post. Check the IP addresses. I will not comment on this thread anymore, as it is obvious you think that JSA made a mistake on these jerseys, and you think the trainer is a liar. I do not know why Heritage doesn't replay to you, but I know Joe Orlando just wrote an article for PSA about what he thinks about people like you who attack auction houses via threads before giving them ample time to first respond.

The jerseys Heritage are auctioning are the exact jerseys the trainer said were player worn. When and where they were worn, I don't know for a fact but I have held these jerseys in my own hand and you can verify from the trainer that they went from the trainer to William Jones III to David Archibald. Those are the facts. I have no more to offer to this thread. if anyone here knows any of the Redeem Team players, please ask them to verify the authenticity of these jerseys.

Ok, so suddenly you obtained these jerseys and sold them to David Archibald. Why did you hid this until now? Like all along the consignor suddenly found you and emailed you? Like suddenly you quote that the consignor is trying to get a letter from the trainer while all along William Jones III is the contact who is trying to get a letter from a trainer?

Why play these games with the community on Game Used Universe? Tell the truth from the start and maybe there will be no issues.

The players do not know what characteristics of any jerseys they wear are. Stop with your games and excuses and find a photo style match for these jerseys already or stop playing games. I assume you also obtained the shoes that David Archibald has been told the autographs are unable to authenticate.

I gave Heritage Auctions time to respond and asked the community here to help me find photos of the players in this style of jersey awaiting for a response. No photos have been found because it appears they do not exist.

Finally, used basketball jerseys generally show minor or slight wear if any at all so I would stop with your argument that these show great wear as it is beginning to look that they may have been worn but not by the USA Olympic players as even the autograph source is suspect.

Good luck with that letter that first David Archibald is trying to obtain but now you must be working on because you hid your interest in this lot to us all along. Even such a letter, without any photo style matches of this style of jersey, is worthless unless you can come up with the magic photos I have searched countless hours for myself and have found none.

[trsent]

No response to my concerns from Heritage Auctions after a few days.

Does Heritage Auctions wish for people to believe that it is ok to auction off questionable memorabilia? Does Heritage Auctions wish for their consignors to emails people such as me abusing them for questioning an item instead of addressing genuine concerns themselves?

The facts? Let's see - Not one photograph is available anywhere of a player wearing this style of jersey. The gentleman who has sent me abusive emails claiming to be the owner and consignor of these jerseys has had a similar set of shoes that the autographs were deemed "Unable to Authenticate" from the USA Basketball Team and the gentleman claiming to be the owner and consignor has a friend who posts on this forum since the gentleman claiming to be the owner and consignor is barred from posting on Game Used Universe who plays games first posting as an interested party, then suddenly he is a friend of the barred member and finally he comes out and says he sold the uniforms (and shoes?) to the barred member and that we have to trust his source.

Remember, this is the same guy who posted a link to an eBay auction for a John Elway jersey that - Surprise! - Is owned by the same person claiming to own the USA Basketball Warm-Up Jerseys in Heritage Auctions who is barred from posting on this site at this time. (I had no clue the owners were related until I questioned them on a MEARS policy - Sorry to get involved)

So, what I see here is suspect memorabilia that Heritage Auctions has to date ignored a genuine email concern about the validity of the item.

I am sorry a customer of mine asked me to look at this lot as they were planning on bidding on it, but they did and my research has ended up with all zeros. Now I asked the members of this forum and Heritage Auctions for help but nothing has come up to date.

[lund6771]

you would think that you would at least get an e-mail back saying something like..."thank you for your concern, we are looking more into this"....

in fact, by Heritage not responding to you, it makes it appear that they haven't done ANY research before listing this lot at all....if they did research it, and did have at least one style match of ANY player, wouldn't they post a picture of it?

I'd be interested i hearing what reasearch was done before even listing it?....Maybe they're not responding because their computers are down?...they're on vacation?

Pretty sad

[trsent]

Ok, I did get an immediate automated response:

We wanted to let you know that we received your inquiry. Due to the high volume of requests we receive, it may take us a few days to get back to you. Thank you for your patience.

Since then I have received harassing emails from David Archibald thinking I have a vendetta against him personally, which I have no clue if he is or is not the consignor. All I know it the auction house with these questionable jerseys has not personally replied while the auction in just now winding down.

[wjonesIII]

Mr. Alpert, the Heritage Auctions item description has been revised. Have you received an email from Heritage? I believe you stated you would post their exact response to you. Here is the updated listing:

"2008 USA Olympic Basketball Team Practice Worn Jerseys Lot of 12, Signed. UPDATE: Additional provenance for this lot will be supplied in the form of a signed letter from a member of the US basketball team attesting to the authenticity of the jerseys, and a photograph of him holding his personal jersey from this lot. Heritage regrets that this provenance will not be available until next week, after the close of the auction, but we guarantee that it is forthcoming, and that the winning bidder will not be held liable for the completion of the sale until the promised provenance is supplied.

A trainer at the Las Vegas practice facilities for the US Olympic basketball team is the source for this incredible collection of worn and autographed shirts from the Team Redeem, which properly reclaimed the Gold Medal for the Americans in Beijing. Each reversible mesh shirt exhibits nice wear, and is signed by the superstar who used it. Included are James, Bryant, Anthony, Wade, Kidd, Bosh, Redd, Williams, Paul, Boozer, Prince and Howard. Tremendous break down value here, though it would be a shame to break up the complete set. An exciting opportunity to connect with the greatest talents in the game today. LOA from James Spence Authentication (autographs). Guide Value or Estimate: $1,500 - up."

[trsent]

Mr. Alpert, the Heritage Auctions item description has been revised. Have you received an email from Heritage? I believe you stated you would post their exact response to you. Here is the updated listing:

"2008 USA Olympic Basketball Team Practice Worn Jerseys Lot of 12, Signed. UPDATE: Additional provenance for this lot will be supplied in the form of a signed letter from a member of the US basketball team attesting to the authenticity of the jerseys, and a photograph of him holding his personal jersey from this lot. Heritage regrets that this provenance will not be available until next week, after the close of the auction, but we guarantee that it is forthcoming, and that the winning bidder will not be held liable for the completion of the sale until the promised provenance is supplied.

A trainer at the Las Vegas practice facilities for the US Olympic basketball team is the source for this incredible collection of worn and autographed shirts from the Team Redeem, which properly reclaimed the Gold Medal for the Americans in Beijing. Each reversible mesh shirt exhibits nice wear, and is signed by the superstar who used it. Included are James, Bryant, Anthony, Wade, Kidd, Bosh, Redd, Williams, Paul, Boozer, Prince and Howard. Tremendous break down value here, though it would be a shame to break up the complete set. An exciting opportunity to connect with the greatest talents in the game today. LOA from James Spence Authentication (autographs). Guide Value or Estimate: $1,500 - up."

Mr. Jones, I am sorry, I typed up a response before I left for the night last night and when I was editing my reply it was removed and I did not wish to take the time to retype it.

I have emailed Chris Ivy about his response and still find too many questions about the jerseys and the autographs and the various stories you have told (first you are an observer - Then you are a friend of barred GUU user David Archibald - Then you originated the jerseys?) to believe even a picture will make these legitimate.

The whole USA Basketball team came to private practices and jerseys were made for these private practices that they wore? Why wouldn't they just wear their own jerseys? Something doesn't smell right. There is no press about anyone attending these private practices except for DeWayne Wade - Wouldn't the press know if LeBron and Kobe were in Chicago? Those guys can't walk across the street without the press knowing about it.

You keep up with your stories, and I will keep asking questions and maybe next time David Archibald will contact the auction house when I ask for help with an item that my client wishes to bid on and not a silly bunch of replies from David and yourself when the auction house still has no proof.

In the meantime, with the various phone calls I have received about these jerseys in the last twenty four hours - I found one person who knows you and told me that you used to sell me game used Blackhawks sticks around the old Gate 3 1/2 at the old Chicago Stadium back in the early 1990s. Pretty cool if that is a true story about you being one of the kids who used to get sticks after the games.

In the meantime, amazing ever-changing stories about a suspect group of jerseys will not change my mind and a history of suspect autographs of the same players really has me confused.

I will continue to post more once Chris Ivy of Heritage Auctions replies to my latest questions.

[wjonesIII]

Joel, you keep on saying observer. I never said I was an observer. I know David Archibald personally made phone calls to try to get a letter from the trainer. I did say I knew David because he is the owner of the jerseys and owes a small commission once they are sold. That is the financial interest. You have repeated your point of observer, to knowing, to financial interest multiple times. David did email me about this thread. Nowhere did I ever say I was just an observer. I simply contradicted your points.

You keep on attacking us about the truth, and honesty, and integrity, but you still to this point have not honored your word and posted EXACTLY the reply you were sent by Chris Ivy. Is it that hard for you to pick up the phone and call the gym and ask if the players practiced with D-Wade before the Olympics? You are not a man of your word, or you would have posted the response you received from Heritage as you promised.

[wjonesIII]

I will post any reply I receive from Heritage Auctions here

Instead, you say you will write more once you here more You did not live up to your word, and now you may since i have called you out on it. You are the person who's honesty and integrity is now in question. I believe after all the attacks on Heritage you made, the forum deserves to read their exact response, just as you promised the forum.

[wjonesIII]

Additionally, I am so sick of the suspect autographs comments. JSA is not God. Ask JSA how many LeBron signatures, or Wade signatures, or Kobe signatures that they have personally seen signed in 2008? Just because JSA s unable to authenticate the autographs on the shoes that came directly from those players trainer DOES NOT MEAN THEY ARE FAKE! Are you that ignorant that you think every autograph JSA fails is fake?

You can verify with JSA that in 2007 JSA authenticator Larry S. told David Archibald that an Albert Pujols signature on a Men's Fitness magazine was not signed by Albert Pujols. Then in 2008, after more 2007 exemplars were in their library, that exact item was then authenticated by JSA. This is a fact. You can go on and on about the autographs on the shoes being questionable but out of the five pairs of shoes, one of the players is ready to sign a LOA attesting to the use and the authenticity of the signatures on the shoes. He personally remembers giving the shoes to the trainer. So then you would have to say...."well....but the other four JSA did not authenticate." So you would then be saying that the other four are fake? They all were obtained by the same trainer. JSA makes mistakes. They are very careful and very honest authenticators, and they need exemplars, not just a story. You continue to use the shoes against us, but you are wrong.

[wjonesIII]

Why wouldn't they just wear their own jerseys? Something doesn't smell right. There is no press about anyone attending these private practices except for DeWayne Wade - Wouldn't the press know if LeBron and Kobe were in Chicago? Those guys can't walk across the street without the press knowing about it.

What own jerseys? You mean the practice jerseys they were not issued until they got to Las Vegas?

As far as the press, this is another ignorant comment. If your comment about the press is true, please look up on the internet and tell me what city LeBron and Kobe were in every day in the months of June and July? According to your logic, you will be able to look up each individual day and find out exactly what city Kobe and LeBron were doing that day.

By the way, it's Dwyane Wade.

By the way, I think LeBron just walked across a street.....but you already knew that because the press was there right?

[trsent]

Oops - It happened again - I write a long response only to have the forum reset and all my typing is lost.

Oh well, I am not spending another 30 minutes typing my comments again.

Mr. Jones, do not attack my character for asking questions and not cutting and pasting a reply from Chris Ivy - Grow up and prove your items are genuine. I suggest a letter from Tim Groves may be a great start stating that all 12 members of USA Basketball showed up at him gym for private workouts and they had special jerseys made for them to wear at these private practices.

Otherwise, stop attacking people for asking genuine, honest questions. If you and David Archibald (The same person suspended from this forum for reasons I do not know, but I would guess game used Albert Pujols autographed baseball caps with autographs that were unable to authenticate may be a reason why) had just let Heritage Auctions answer the questions like an auction house should and not raise more doubt about these jerseys this thread would have died.

In the meantime, you both have raised more questions and attacking myself and trusted hobby authenticators has left us all wondering why.

I will chose weather to post in this thread again or not as I am done with childish attacks on my character for not cutting and pasting an email from Chris Ivy of Heritage Auctions. I take pride in asking a question and having respected, honest people answer my questions and not attack my character after promising they were done with this thread - Which I guess you were not with 4 posts in the past 24 hours.

What really sucks is with Chris Ivy's reply, which is no different from what you see on their web site, my client may have bid, but due to questions about why PSA/DNA was a listed authenticator on eBay but not on their web site (now PSA/DNA is not listed on eBay anymore) and the fact that the item has originated from David Archibald who him and his friend have attacked me for asking genuine questions has led us to even more question the items that would have never been asked if Mr. Archibald and Mr. Jones had not gotten involved with the discussion and let the auction house do their job and answer the questions.

[trsent]

Since Chris Ivy has ignored my email from yesterday I will post that I am very confused why the lot I have questioned is authenticated by JSA but not PSA/DNA - Even though the original eBay listing stated that PSA/DNA authenticated the autographs.

What I find odd is other lots in the Heritage Auctions current listing have both PSA/DNA and JSA authentication. So after Chris Ivy tells me that no one from Heritage Auctions but him has communicated with me about the questionable jerseys - As he does not accept David Archibald or William Davis III emailing me or posting about these online as communication from Heritage Auctions - I asked him yesterday straighforward if PSA/DNA was unable to authenticate the autographs on these jerseys as why wouldn't they have both certifications?

Since the same person, David Archibald had USA Olympic autographed shoes that were unable to authenticate, I can only assume that PSA/DNA was unable to authenticte the jerseys also since Chris Ivy ignored the question I posed him yesterday about this topic.

If this is true, shouldn't Chris Ivy notify the high bidder that PSA/DNA was unable to authenticate the autographs? Then again, why else would my question have been ignored by Chris Ivy with the listing ending so soon? Iwould assume since all other lots feature both authentictors that this special lot would also be authenticated by both.

I still await a response.

[trsent]

Since Chris Ivy has ignored my email from yesterday I will post that I am very confused why the lot I have questioned is authenticated by JSA but not PSA/DNA - Even though the original eBay listing stated that PSA/DNA authenticated the autographs.

What I find odd is other lots in the Heritage Auctions current listing have both PSA/DNA and JSA authentication. So after Chris Ivy tells me that no one from Heritage Auctions but him has communicated with me about the questionable jerseys - As he does not accept David Archibald or William Davis III emailing me or posting about these online as communication from Heritage Auctions - I asked him yesterday straighforward if PSA/DNA was unable to authenticate the autographs on these jerseys as why wouldn't they have both certifications?

Since the same person, David Archibald had USA Olympic autographed shoes that were unable to authenticate, I can only assume that PSA/DNA was unable to authenticte the jerseys also since Chris Ivy ignored the question I posed him yesterday about this topic.

If this is true, shouldn't Chris Ivy notify the high bidder that PSA/DNA was unable to authenticate the autographs? Then again, why else would my question have been ignored by Chris Ivy with the listing ending so soon? Iwould assume since all other lots feature both authentictors that this special lot would also be authenticated by both.

I still await a response.

I still await a response from Chris Ivy - The guy with a big head at Heritage Auctions who thinks he is above the rules of common decency - Did PSA/DNA look at these jerseys as they appear to have authenticated everything else in your auction as some sucker paid $2868.00 for these jerseys?

I guess Chris Ivy has a policy that he does not care about integrity or honesty in this industry as he is above having to sell genuine memorabilia or at least answer questions about authentication.

Chris - you had an auction end last night and you ignored my questions about why PSA/DNA did not certify the autographs on these jersey. My client was prepared to bid $4000.00 on these before I found questions about the authenticity of these jerseys and questions about the autographs.

I know, you believe there was a mystery practice session in Chicago that custom made practice jerseys were worn at and all 12 players attended these private practices and no media ever knew about them. I know, practice jerseys show great use and the autographs were accepted by James Spence Authentication (a company not Pre-Certified by eBay) but where is the PSA/DNA authentication?

Just keep ignoring questions and we will see if maybe you can next be visited by a higher government power for not working for your bidders best interest.

You are welcome to post on this forum your replies - It is open to the public.

[wjonesIII]

Joel, the jerseys actually sold for $4250.00 ($5078.75 after buyers premium) so your "client" would have been outbid. There was a live portion of the auction after the internet portion ended.

However, the winning bidder is not liable for the sale as of yet. The agreement is, as clearly stated in the auction listing, is that a photo of a one of the players holding up their jersey and a LOA for all of the jerseys will be provided to HA before the winning bidder is liable for the winning bid.

The player who was asked to provide the LOA was personally responsible for helping his trainer acquire this set of jerseys. He was also at the workouts so he has a first hand knowledge of the authenticity of the lot. If the player ends up not signing the LOA, the auction results are null and void. If the player ends up signing the LOA as I was told he is going to (in addition to an LOA for the shoes you keep on referencing), then that should give the buyer the assurance he or she needs to complete the sale.

If the LOA is signed for the shoes and the jerseys, both of which picture the items and state the facts, can I expect an apology? Before you question the authenticity of the signature on the LOA, you should know that a picture will be taken of the player signing the LOA to prevent you from using that argument as well. These will be my final comments pending the receipt of the LOA and the photos.

[trsent]

Joel, the jerseys actually sold for $4250.00 ($5078.75 after buyers premium) so your "client" would have been outbid. There was a live portion of the auction after the internet portion ended.

However, the winning bidder is not liable for the sale as of yet. The agreement is, as clearly stated in the auction listing, is that a photo of a one of the players holding up their jersey and a LOA for all of the jerseys will be provided to HA before the winning bidder is liable for the winning bid.

The player who was asked to provide the LOA was personally responsible for helping his trainer acquire this set of jerseys. He was also at the workouts so he has a first hand knowledge of the authenticity of the lot. If the player ends up not signing the LOA, the auction results are null and void. If the player ends up signing the LOA as I was told he is going to (in addition to an LOA for the shoes you keep on referencing), then that should give the buyer the assurance he or she needs to complete the sale.

If the LOA is signed for the shoes and the jerseys, both of which picture the items and state the facts, can I expect an apology? Before you question the authenticity of the signature on the LOA, you should know that a picture will be taken of the player signing the LOA to prevent you from using that argument as well. These will be my final comments pending the receipt of the LOA and the photos.

Mr. Jones, Chris Ivy emailed me that David Archibald or William Jones III are not speaking on behalf of Heritage Auctions so your posts are worthless to this discussion.

I am still waiting for Chris Ivy to confirm or deny if PSA/DNA was unable to authenticate these jerseys also had shoes from the same source were found unable to authentic. I am confused why these jerseys do not have PSA/DNA authentication while all other Heritage Auctions lots have such.

As for your letter - I find it worthless - I know people who are friendly with sports players who will do favors for them. Prove there were private practices attended by a Las Vegas facility trainer that the players wore custom made Team USA jerseys. Photos would be nice. A press article would be nice also.

Otherwise - Keep making up stuff and I will await Chris Ivy's reply about the lack of PSA/DNA authentication.

[trsent]

So, after many emails on Thursday to Chris Ivy, today Monday at 6:45PM Central I have no reply about my concerns with if PSA/DNA looked at the lot I have asked questions about in this thread.

I have sent the following email to Chris Ivy today, let me see if his integrity allows him to reply to this email:

Chris, funny how you stated ignoring my emails.

I can only assume you do not want to be an honest person and admit if PSA/DNA inspected these jerseys, as why would they mistakenly be listed with PSA/DNA authentication only for you to remove it from your eBay listing when I question why the jerseys are not listed with PSA/DNA authentication on your web site? Why would other lots have both authenticators but this lot does not?

Does Heritage Auctions have a policy to sell items with questionable authenticity because making money is more important than honesty and integrity?

Does Heritage Auctions have a policy to have their consignors abuse people who ask honest, genuine questions about memorabilia in their auctions? This seems like a good policy so you don’t have to answer questions and your customers can be abused by consignors and you are not the bad guy…

…or are you?

Joel Alpert

Chris Ivy told me about the letter from a USA Team Player and a photo holding one of these jerseys that the high bidder will receive. I just don't get it. There is no media about 12 players showing up at a private gym in Chicago for workouts (and since the jerseys have nice wear I would assume multiple workouts because I have seen practice jerseys that show light wear from NBA teams) and there were no photos and no media at all about it?

That is just odd and spooky. Besides, for a private practice at a private gym, they custom made Team USA jerseys? That is really weird and odd.

[buc]

Joel,
I'm completely with you on all this except for one thing. JSA is a pre-approved ebay authenticator.

[wjonesIII]

Joel,
I'm completely with you on all this except for one thing. JSA is a pre-approved ebay authenticator.

I keep on promising not to post in this thread, but Joel keeps on not reading or understanding the basic points. So here we go again.

1. Custom USA jerseys: according to the trainer, Kobe's friend "Rev" ordered these jerseys from Nike for the players to wear. Since they were practicing for the USA events, they found it appropriate to wear USA jerseys. That is information Chris Ivy does not have access to.

2. Being abused: you have already falsely accused us on both the MEARS and GUU of threatening you. You later went back on that statement on the MEARS board, but never corrected that statement on this board. So for the record, you were never threatened.

3. Photos: This on is probably the most important because you keep on repeating yourself about wanting photos.

TIM GROVERS GYM HAS A NO CAMERAS POLICY, SO HOW WILL I GET PHOTOS?

THERE IS A NO CAMERAS POLICY AT THE GYM

THERE IS A NO CAMERAS POLICY AT THE GYM

THERE IS A NO CAMERAS POLICY AT THE GYM!

Will you please quit asking for photos of practices that are impossible to obtain due to a no cameras policy. Does this not make sense. Can anyone else on this board explain to Joel that if there is a no camera policy at the gym, and the practiced occurred at the gym, it is dumb to keep asking for photos that would be impossible to produce?

4. Media reports: The USA team came to Chicago after the Olympics to be on the Oprah show and help promote Chicago for the 2016 Olympics. During that week, the players were at Grover's gym every day. Are there media reports about those practices and workouts? According to Joel, there should also be coverage of these workouts all over the net as well. It is not Tim Grover's policy to alert the media when the players come to practice and workout. Find me any media stories about players working out at Grover;s gym, and I guarantee you that the coverage will be a fraction of the amount of actual workouts and practicing that actually occurred.

5. PSA/DNA: I am not sure if PSA/DNA saw the items or not, but I did see they were at one time listed as authenticators on both sites. Again, any experienced autograph collector can tell you that the lack of PSA/DNA authentication does not mean an item is fake. It just means PSA/DNA didn't certify the item. It is an opinion that they give. That being said, if PSA/DNA didn't certify the items but JSA did, where does that leave us? Are you going to say that PSA/DNA is right and JSA is wrong?

6. Player LOA and photo: Joel, you have declared these two items to be worthless. You say that players do people favors. If you are going to call the player a liar, and say they are wrong, that is your choice. I will bet that the majority of people will trust the player over Joel Alpert, especially since you have shown an inability to accept that maybe you are wrong, and even an inability to read for that matter (see: NO CAMERAS ALLOWED!).

I know I said I wouldn't post again, but Joel is clearly just asking the same questions over and over and over and over again, even after he is responded to. You can't ask for something that people can't help you with? If the gym has a no cameras policy, and the media wasn't alerted to the practices, you are either going to have to accept the players word or not.

[trsent]

Joel,
I'm completely with you on all this except for one thing. JSA is a pre-approved ebay authenticator.

I do not see JSA on this list on eBay:

http://pages.ebay.com/apc/apcbuyer.html

When I previously asked about JSA being Pre-Certified on eBay, I called eBay and I was told they were never listed in this catagory. Please advise if I am mistaken.

[trsent]

I keep on promising not to post in this thread, but Joel keeps on not reading or understanding the basic points. So here we go again.

1. Custom USA jerseys: according to the trainer, Kobe's friend "Rev" ordered these jerseys from Nike for the players to wear. Since they were practicing for the USA events, they found it appropriate to wear USA jerseys. That is information Chris Ivy does not have access to.

2. Being abused: you have already falsely accused us on both the MEARS and GUU of threatening you. You later went back on that statement on the MEARS board, but never corrected that statement on this board. So for the record, you were never threatened.

3. Photos: This on is probably the most important because you keep on repeating yourself about wanting photos.

TIM GROVERS GYM HAS A NO CAMERAS POLICY, SO HOW WILL I GET PHOTOS?

THERE IS A NO CAMERAS POLICY AT THE GYM

THERE IS A NO CAMERAS POLICY AT THE GYM

THERE IS A NO CAMERAS POLICY AT THE GYM!

Will you please quit asking for photos of practices that are impossible to obtain due to a no cameras policy. Does this not make sense. Can anyone else on this board explain to Joel that if there is a no camera policy at the gym, and the practiced occurred at the gym, it is dumb to keep asking for photos that would be impossible to produce?

4. Media reports: The USA team came to Chicago after the Olympics to be on the Oprah show and help promote Chicago for the 2016 Olympics. During that week, the players were at Grover's gym every day. Are there media reports about those practices and workouts? According to Joel, there should also be coverage of these workouts all over the net as well. It is not Tim Grover's policy to alert the media when the players come to practice and workout. Find me any media stories about players working out at Grover;s gym, and I guarantee you that the coverage will be a fraction of the amount of actual workouts and practicing that actually occurred.

5. PSA/DNA: I am not sure if PSA/DNA saw the items or not, but I did see they were at one time listed as authenticators on both sites. Again, any experienced autograph collector can tell you that the lack of PSA/DNA authentication does not mean an item is fake. It just means PSA/DNA didn't certify the item. It is an opinion that they give. That being said, if PSA/DNA didn't certify the items but JSA did, where does that leave us? Are you going to say that PSA/DNA is right and JSA is wrong?

6. Player LOA and photo: Joel, you have declared these two items to be worthless. You say that players do people favors. If you are going to call the player a liar, and say they are wrong, that is your choice. I will bet that the majority of people will trust the player over Joel Alpert, especially since you have shown an inability to accept that maybe you are wrong, and even an inability to read for that matter (see: NO CAMERAS ALLOWED!).

I know I said I wouldn't post again, but Joel is clearly just asking the same questions over and over and over and over again, even after he is responded to. You can't ask for something that people can't help you with? If the gym has a no cameras policy, and the media wasn't alerted to the practices, you are either going to have to accept the players word or not.

According to Chris Ivy from Heritage Auctions you are not authorized by Heritage to discuss these jerseys on their behalf. Based on his reply to me, anyone with any other information does not speak for Heritage Auctions.

Then again, Heritage Auctions in an effort to hide the truth about the autographs on this jersey has ignored my questions about why PSA/DNA was listed as an authenticator for these jerseys on eBay, then removed them when I asked about why their web site didn't list PSA/DNA. I believe in an effort to hide the truth - As with the similar shoes that were found unable to authenticate - The autographs on these jerseys may be suspect.

If not, why would Chris Ivy ignore my emails asking about if PSA/DNA inspected these jerseys? He knows there is something wrong but he likes the commission for his highly competitive company.

You keep coming up with new stories. Maybe if you had let Chris Ivy handle it from the start I would have forgotten about it. Instead you and David Archibald have made the industry very suspicious of these jerseys. Chris Ivy's original reply would have been enough to stop with all the new questions that have come up since David Archibald has a past of game used items with questionable signatures.

[trsent]

Here is a link to Tim Grover's Gym:

http://www.attackathletics.com/

I also found this picture of Dwyane Wade working out at Attack Athletics. How did this AP Photo originate if there is a no camera policy?

15316

Miami Heat guard Dwyane Wade works out with personal trainer Tim Grover at Attack Athletics, trying to get his left knee in shape to make the U.S. Olympic basketball team and participate in the upcoming summer Olympics, Friday, May 16, 2008, in Chicago.

5 months ago from AP Photo by M. Spencer Green

I also found this picture taken inside Attack Athletics on April 13, 2008:

15317

Chicago Bulls Jr. NBA/Jr. WNBA Skills Challenge

CHICAGO - APRIL 13: Contestants of a Chicago Bulls sponsored Jr. NBA/Jr. WNBA Skills Challenge competition gather for a group photo at Attack Athletics April 13, 2008 in Chicago, Illinois. NOTE TO USER: User expressly acknowledges and agrees that, by downloading and/or using this Photograph, user is consenting to the terms and conditions of the Getty Images License Agreement. Mandatory Copyright Notice: Copyright 2008 NBAE (Photo by Randy Belice/NBAE via Getty Images)

So, photos have been taken inside the gym. I never doubted that the gym is used by NBA players but I also doubt they wore custom made jerseys for a Las Vegas trainer (boy, that story changed from the origin of this debate) to take from each player and have them autograph with what is now deemed suspect autographs. So what if players went to the gym after an episode on Oprah? That doesn't mean they went there for a secret, double practice that they all wore specially made jerseys that are different from any other jersey the players have ever worn in organized practices.

You ask us to trust you. I do not know you except from when you were young and used to sell me hockey sticks outside of the Chicago Stadium. I do know the past with David Archibald has issues that led him to be suspended from this forum for promoting items that raise too many questions. You should have let Chris Ivy handle this from the start and the question would have never escalated to this level.

Chris Ivy says no one but him has contacted me to date over these jerseys speaking on behalf of Heritage Auctions.

[trsent]

6. Player LOA and photo: Joel, you have declared these two items to be worthless. You say that players do people favors. If you are going to call the player a liar, and say they are wrong, that is your choice. I will bet that the majority of people will trust the player over Joel Alpert, especially since you have shown an inability to accept that maybe you are wrong, and even an inability to read for that matter (see: NO CAMERAS ALLOWED!).

So, please explain the two photos I found in a matter of five minutes searching the web?

Do not call me a lair, I just asked for proof and was abused (never threatened, sorry if there was some confusion, five emails from David Archibald in a short time was threatening) and Heritage Auctions has never proved that I am wrong. They have ignored the questions about PSA/DNA and since David Archibald had similar shoes that were unable to authenticate I am beginning to figure out that Heritage Auctions may list an item that PSA/DNA finds unable to authenticate if JSA - A non Pre-Certified eBay company - will authenticate.

Weakness is when you attack the questioner and do not prove anything except for ranting on and on without proving anything. You keep talking about a no camera policy, but I found a picture from a private workout and from a children's event at the gym that were published on Getty Images and the Associate Press.

[mvandor]

So, please explain the two photos I found in a matter of five minutes searching the web?

Do not call me a lair, I just asked for proof and was abused (never threatened, sorry if there was some confusion, five emails from David Archibald in a short time was threatening) and Heritage Auctions has never proved that I am wrong. They have ignored the questions about PSA/DNA and since David Archibald had similar shoes that were unable to authenticate I am beginning to figure out that Heritage Auctions may list an item that PSA/DNA finds unable to authenticate if JSA - A non Pre-Certified eBay company - will authenticate.

Weakness is when you attack the questioner and do not prove anything except for ranting on and on without proving anything. You keep talking about a no camera policy, but I found a picture from a private workout and from a children's event at the gym that were published on Getty Images and the Associate Press.

Joel, we all know JSA is as reputable as PSA in the guessing game of third party authentication, so why are you obsessing over that triviality? Frankly, this is starting to look like a personal matter between you and these guys or the auction house. If they produce the photos and LOA they say they will, let the buyer make his own judgement on that basis.

[wjonesIII]

I want to clear something up. First, Tim Grover's gym does have a no camera policy. Those photos ae the exception, not the rule.

More importantly, Heritage made an error by saying te trainer from the Las Vegas practice facility. The trainer was at the Las Vegas practice facility with the players, but is not a trainer there. He is a trainer at Grover's gym, and is a personal trainer for the NBA players. He was in Vegas at the practice facilities when he got the jerseys in hand, which is why we at first thought they were worn in Vegas.

I am not speaking on behalf of Heritage. I am speaking on behalf of the owners of these jerseys. Your personal vendetta against Heritage brought these jerseys into it, and you couldn't handle another opinion. Obviously, we are going to be able to address your concerns as well as Heritage.

Last, nowhere did I write they wore these jerseys after the Olympics. I just stated the players played and worked out in the gym all week while they were in Chicago, and I don't see any media reports about those workouts. If the media covers LeBron and Kobe "when they cross the street," then according to your logic there should be all kinds of post Olympic coverage of the players being at the gym (and pictures). But where are they. if it wasn't covered post Olympics, then it makes sense they weren't covered pre-Olympics either.

The Wade picture was with a story about Wade, and there was likely special permission from Wade take that picture. Your other image is of kids, not of professional athletes. How many times have the players been in Grover's gym in the last ten years? And how many pictures can you find of those events? It is a small fraction.

[otismalibu]

What's the Vegas line on this thread still being at the top of the page when the 2012 squad starts scrimmaging?

[trsent]

Joel, we all know JSA is as reputable as PSA in the guessing game of third party authentication, so why are you obsessing over that triviality? Frankly, this is starting to look like a personal matter between you and these guys or the auction house. If they produce the photos and LOA they say they will, let the buyer make his own judgement on that basis.

Michael Vandor, thanks for your opinion. If PSA/DNA denied authentication of the autographs, and the guy claiming to be the originator and the guy claiming to be the consignor have a history of items with autographs that are unable to authenticate - Why don't you leave my thread alone and worry about your own concerns?

There is no issues here, I emailed Chris Ivy again this morning and I also emailed someone to shed some light on this issue who knows more about any secret, private practices than anyone.

Again, if you do not feel the same concern I do, because if PSA/DNA did deny the authentication and Chris Ivy is ignoring my question because of this, he is hiding information that is not fair to the buyer and to my client who asked me to look into this lot.

You can claim PSA/DNA and JSA are the same thing - That is your view. eBay doesn't accept JSA as an authenticator. That is a concern to me why Chris Ivy has ignored my question about this. If they use both authenticators, and the alleged consignor and originator have a history of items that are unable to authenticate, I still feel there is an issue.

If there is anything else you wish to chime in to help what appears to possibly be a fraudulent $5000 plus transaction in my eyes, please have some evidence and not just you picking on me as it is really annoying to be picked on by the same people each time I am giving an opinion or having a discussion.

My email address is below if you have any further concerns. Understand?

[wjonesIII]

Joel, we all know JSA is as reputable as PSA in the guessing game of third party authentication, so why are you obsessing over that triviality? Frankly, this is starting to look like a personal matter between you and these guys or the auction house. If they produce the photos and LOA they say they will, let the buyer make his own judgement on that basis.

Thank you. He is attacking JSA to prove the signatures wrong. He forgets that these athletes have likely signed a limited amount of signatures in front of JSA or PSA, so they are relying on exemplars to form an opinion, not on if the signatures are or are not real. The way I view this (because I know where the signatures came from), is that JSA has better exemplars of these athletes signatures. Still, JSA not passing the shoes doesn't make them fake! Joel, you sound like a fool because you use JSA as an example for why the shoes are fake in your opinion (because JSA didn't pass them), but then you flip flop and accuse JSA of being wrong on the jerseys? You either trust them or you don't. You can't use them as an example both ways!!!!!!

Last, the attacks that David Archibald about fake autographs now? GUU did not kick David off for having Pujols signatures that were unable t authenticate (but came directly from Albert's first cousin, who was in the same St. Louis Cardinals system). He was banned for baiting and attacking others (including the moderators) who baited and attacked him. You can verify that with the moderators. It had nothing to do with signatures.

[trsent]

I want to clear something up. First, Tim Grover's gym does have a no camera policy. Those photos ae the exception, not the rule.

More importantly, Heritage made an error by saying te trainer from the Las Vegas practice facility. The trainer was at the Las Vegas practice facility with the players, but is not a trainer there. He is a trainer at Grover's gym, and is a personal trainer for the NBA players. He was in Vegas at the practice facilities when he got the jerseys in hand, which is why we at first thought they were worn in Vegas.

I am not speaking on behalf of Heritage. I am speaking on behalf of the owners of these jerseys. Your personal vendetta against Heritage brought these jerseys into it, and you couldn't handle another opinion. Obviously, we are going to be able to address your concerns as well as Heritage.

Last, nowhere did I write they wore these jerseys after the Olympics. I just stated the players played and worked out in the gym all week while they were in Chicago, and I don't see any media reports about those workouts. If the media covers LeBron and Kobe "when they cross the street," then according to your logic there should be all kinds of post Olympic coverage of the players being at the gym (and pictures). But where are they. if it wasn't covered post Olympics, then it makes sense they weren't covered pre-Olympics either.

The Wade picture was with a story about Wade, and there was likely special permission from Wade take that picture. Your other image is of kids, not of professional athletes. How many times have the players been in Grover's gym in the last ten years? And how many pictures can you find of those events? It is a small fraction.

Mr. Jones, see the guys who like to abuse me on this forum have chimed in this morning. I hope that makes you happy. They always pick on me when I am having a debate or discussion. No big deal.

All I see are more errors and more stories about this lot. I will continue to peruse the truth as your story has changed from the first post on this forum to the last post. No one doubts Tim Grover's gym as being legitimate. I received an interesting email from an auction house executive this morning that I found interesting. It reads:

They are idiots, WJONESIII was the biggest Jordan crook/forger there was, he was not even good at it. He may have a legtimate source with Derrick Rose, but i personally saw the Jordan shoes he got from Tim Grover and the sigs were fake. He may have gotten the shoes from Tim Grover but they were not signed. You should call Tim Grover.

I found this email very interesting to come from an executive with a major auction house. Maybe it is time you stop your daily story which changes every time you get a chance.

Let me and Chris Ivy figure this out. Maybe if I find the information I am looking for I will forward it to a government office for further investigation as this is getting silly to debate with you anymore as Heritage Auctions is responsible for this lot to be legitimate.

[trsent]

Thank you. He is attacking JSA to prove the signatures wrong. He forgets that these athletes have likely signed a limited amount of signatures in front of JSA or PSA, so they are relying on exemplars to form an opinion, not on if the signatures are or are not real. The way I view this (because I know where the signatures came from), is that JSA has better exemplars of these athletes signatures. Still, JSA not passing the shoes doesn't make them fake! Joel, you sound like a fool because you use JSA as an example for why the shoes are fake in your opinion (because JSA didn't pass them), but then you flip flop and accuse JSA of being wrong on the jerseys? You either trust them or you don't. You can't use them as an example both ways!!!!!!

Last, the attacks that David Archibald about fake autographs now? GUU did not kick David off for having Pujols signatures that were unable t authenticate (but came directly from Albert's first cousin, who was in the same St. Louis Cardinals system). He was banned for baiting and attacking others (including the moderators) who baited and attacked him. You can verify that with the moderators. It had nothing to do with signatures.

There you go again, when your arguments are weak, call the debator a "fool".

Sir, please, let Heritage Auctions handle this issue - You are really making it clear that you are posting for David Archibald - Like pointing us to his John Elway jersey to give it publicity - and David Archibald is not allowed to post on this forum because he is an abusive person with an alleged history of forged autographs.

That last comment comes from talking to those in the industry who know more than you or I.

Now, do you wish to personally attack my character more or will you let Heritage Auctions handle this situation as I have asked of you over and over again.

JSA is not pre-certified to authenticate autographs on eBay. I do not mind their service, but if a company uses both JSA and PSA/DNA - If PSA/DNA denied the autographs the auction house should not keep this a secret if asked about it and Chris Ivy has ignored the question for days and days now.

[buc]

http://pages.ebay.com/help/community/auth-overview.html

Joel,
Attached is the link for pre-approved ebay authenticators. If you look under autographs, you will see JSA. To me, and this is my personal opinion, JSA is better than PSA. Again, that is my personal opinion.

[wjonesIII]

You can claim PSA/DNA and JSA are the same thing - That is your view. eBay doesn't accept JSA as an authenticator. That is a concern to me why Chris Ivy has ignored my question about this.

My email address is below if you have any further concerns. Understand?

Don't email Joel, he will accuse you of making threats!

Again though, Joel makes a dumb statement! Joel, how many lies and errors are you going to make in one thread. eBay approves JSA. Are you just not taking the time to read? SEE BELOW and quit saying things that are so stpid, like how eBay doesn't accept JSA as an authenticator:

"Authentication and grading services can help you evaluate an item. For a small fee, an independent, experienced evaluator can help examine a listing on eBay and point out potential problems.

About authentication and grading services

Buyers can get an item evaluated before purchasing it or get an evaluation of a recently purchased item. Sellers can boost bidder confidence by having items pre-authenticated before listing an item. Sellers can promote the fact that an independent expert has approved the item, which lets bidders know that the item has been examined by an experienced professional who has pledged to provide an unbiased opinion.
Authentication services : Authentication helps determine whether an item is genuine and described appropriately. Experts can often detect counterfeits from subtle details. However, two expert authenticators can have different opinions on the authenticity of the same item.
Grading services: Grading is a way of determining the physical condition of an item. The grading system depends on the type of item being graded.
Authentication companies

The authentication companies listed here are professional, independent evaluators. We’ve obtained a pledge from these evaluators that they will offer their services to both buyers and sellers, and that they will maintain independence from any individual party. The authenticators have pledged not to buy or sell on eBay's core site, keeping them out of competition with the buyers and sellers they are serving. They have also promised to provide eBay users with competitive prices.

List of authentication companies

General

For an online appraiser, contact What's It Worth To You.

For a local appraiser, contact the International Society of Appraisers.

Autographs

Authenticate sports autographs and memorabilia with:
Global Authentication
James Spence Authentication
OnlineAuthentics.com
Authenticate sports autographs with PSA/DNA."


RIGHT THERE. eBay not only approves JSA, they provide a link to his website and say "authenticate autographs" with them and the other three You spend so much time trying to prove me wrong, that you prove yourself wrong.

[wjonesIII]

Another good one:

"Authentication services : Authentication helps determine whether an item is genuine and described appropriately. Experts can often detect counterfeits from subtle details. However, two expert authenticators can have different opinions on the authenticity of the same item."

Right there from eBay...JSA is accepted and promoted by eBay, and eBay makes it a point to educate people like Joel that the authenticators are experts who can have different opinions on the same item.

[trsent]

http://pages.ebay.com/help/community/auth-overview.html

Joel,
Attached is the link for pre-approved ebay authenticators. If you look under autographs, you will see JSA. To me, and this is my personal opinion, JSA is better than PSA. Again, that is my personal opinion.

Ok, I see what you found. Your page is not for the eBay Pre-Certified Catagory - It is for 3rd party authentictors. JSA is not eBay pre-Certified, but eBay offers them a link for authentication.

This is fine - I still wish to know if PSA/DNA denied the autographs as Chris Ivy ignored this question for some suspicious reason.

I personally have no problem with JSA, but I find when I sell similar items with one or the other I always get more money for a PSA/DNA certified item.

[trsent]

Another good one:

"Authentication services : Authentication helps determine whether an item is genuine and described appropriately. Experts can often detect counterfeits from subtle details. However, two expert authenticators can have different opinions on the authenticity of the same item."

Right there from eBay...JSA is accepted and promoted by eBay, and eBay makes it a point to educate people like Joel that the authenticators are experts who can have different opinions on the same item.

Sir, once again, your facts are wrong, I proved it in the post above.

JSA is not eBay Pre-Certified they are available on a list of 3rd party authenticators, but they are not Pre-Certified.

MY QUESTION IS DID PSA/DNA FAIL TO AUTHENTICATE THESE AUTOGRAPHS - IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH JSA - THE FACTS ARE SIMPLE AND THE MAIN QUESTION HAS BEEN IGNORED BY CHRIS IVY - WHY?

Mr. Jones, keep posting, but I am not going to play your games anymore. I will wait for evidence to come up because this has now because something that I care very much to show may not be what is advertised as there are some issues that have been ignored about history here.

Your letter from an NBA player or photograph is still worthless to me. It appears you have friends, but also that you do not believe rules of integrity.

Why can't you just let Heritage Auctions handle this already? It is their lot - Not yours. You have nothing to do with it according to an email I received from Heritage Auctions.

[buc]

Not to get to far off topic, but if you list an item under autographs and you have the option to list who it was authenticated by, ebay gives you the options of JSA, PSA, GAI, or other. I think this makes them pre-certified. ebay would not have that option if they were not pre-certified. I've had the exact opposite as far as sales go. I always get more for JSA, so now, even if I buy something that has PSA paperwork, I send it to JSA for duplicate authentication and put JSA in my title!

[wjonesIII]

I agree that Heritage should have let people know that PSA/DNA did not pass the autographs, for the sake of honesty. At the same time, if PSA/DNA didn't pass the signatures, it does not mean the signatures are fake.

The MJ shoes did not come from Tim Grover. They came from his employee.

Last, the email from the auction house executive was likely from American Memorabila. AMI has a personal issue with both of us, so that is not a good source to go by. Call up Mastro, ask for Bill Mastro, and ask him how many great Michael Jordan items he got in the 1990's from the same source? And ask him who would take him to Bulls games with Jordan's personal tickets, and introduce him to MJ at the game?

[wjonesIII]

I do not know if PSA/DNA examined the signatures, or not.

[trsent]

Not to get to far off topic, but if you list an item under autographs and you have the option to list who it was authenticated by, ebay gives you the options of JSA, PSA, GAI, or other. I think this makes them pre-certified. ebay would not have that option if they were not pre-certified. I've had the exact opposite as far as sales go. I always get more for JSA, so now, even if I buy something that has PSA paperwork, I send it to JSA for duplicate authentication and put JSA in my title!

Sorry, eBay doesn't offer JSA as Pre-Certified. You can type in any name you want in the Guaranteed Authentic box. The facts are clear - eBay may offer links to the JSA web site, but as for Authenticator Pre-Certified, JSA doesn't make the list and I have no idea why.

See this link:

http://pages.ebay.com/apc/form.html

If you click the list of authenticators, JSA is not there.

I am not here to debate if JSA is right or wrong - I just wish Chris Ivy answered my question is PSA/DNA was unable to authenticate the autographs.

[trsent]

I agree that Heritage should have let people know that PSA/DNA did not pass the autographs, for the sake of honesty. At the same time, if PSA/DNA didn't pass the signatures, it does not mean the signatures are fake.

The MJ shoes did not come from Tim Grover. They came from his employee.

Last, the email from the auction house executive was likely from American Memorabila. AMI has a personal issue with both of us, so that is not a good source to go by. Call up Mastro, ask for Bill Mastro, and ask him how many great Michael Jordan items he got in the 1990's from the same source? And ask him who would take him to Bulls games with Jordan's personal tickets, and introduce him to MJ at the game?

Who? Wes?

[wjonesIII]

Wes? Which comment are you referring to?

[wjonesIII]

All I see are more errors and more stories about this lot. I will continue to peruse the truth as your story has changed from the first post on this forum to the last post. No one doubts Tim Grover's gym as being legitimate. I received an interesting email from an auction house executive this morning that I found interesting. It reads:

They are idiots, WJONESIII was the biggest Jordan crook/forger there was, he was not even good at it. He may have a legtimate source with Derrick Rose, but i personally saw the Jordan shoes he got from Tim Grover and the sigs were fake. He may have gotten the shoes from Tim Grover but they were not signed. You should call Tim Grover.

I found this email very interesting to come from an executive with a major auction house. Maybe it is time you stop your daily story which changes every time you get a chance.



Was this email from American Memorabilia?

[trsent]

Wes? Which comment are you referring to?

I am going to bed. It is my bedtime. Have a great day.

By the way, Mr. Jones. I do not know you except for being told that you used to sell my hockey sticks back in the early 1990s. I only know Bill Mastro from poker games in the late 1980s through the early 1990s. He seems like a really nice guy.

I have been emailed about you and your history by several people since you came on here to defend your jerseys that I simply originally only asked for photos to match. This whole situation would have been ignored if you had kept out of it, as Chris Ivy's original reply would have ended the conversation. I am sorry people have contacted me about other items from similar sources with issues.

As usual, when David Archibald is involved there is unnecessary controversy. I am sorry if this got out of hand. I will let you know if I have any further findings.

You can debate your hatred of any autograph authenticators until the end of time. They give an opinion that this industry works with and if they are concerned about autographs authenticity I am also concerned.

[mvandor]

Michael Vandor, thanks for your opinion. If PSA/DNA denied authentication of the autographs, and the guy claiming to be the originator and the guy claiming to be the consignor have a history of items with autographs that are unable to authenticate - Why don't you leave my thread alone and worry about your own concerns?

Because you've reached raving lunatic status in this thread, which I assume is what lead to your long previous hiatus from here before. You don't want input don't post on a message board compadre.

[wjonesIII]

I never said I hated any authenticator, I just said they all make errors.

Joel, you can keep on using the word integrity, but you are the one going on a public message board, posting anonymous slanderous emails about people for all to see. That is not right, and you are allowing someone making serious accusations to remain anonymous. I could write on here that three people emailed me and said Joel forges Tiger Woods autographs, but it wouldn't make it true.

Does anyone else find it unfair that Joel is accusing two people here of dealing in forged autographs, and not citing any sources? It's pretty easy to come onto a board and say that people emailed you this and that. You want proof of the USA jerseys, but where is your proof?

The MJ shoes were already signed when the trainer gave us the shoes. He said he had just worked out MJ, and that MJ gave him the shoes he wore and signed them. Therefore, I think the shoes and the autographs are real.

[trsent]

I never said I hated any authenticator, I just said they all make errors.

Joel, you can keep on using the word integrity, but you are the one going on a public message board, posting anonymous slanderous emails about people for all to see. That is not right, and you are allowing someone making serious accusations to remain anonymous. I could write on here that three people emailed me and said Joel forges Tiger Woods autographs, but it wouldn't make it true.

Does anyone else find it unfair that Joel is accusing two people here of dealing in forged autographs, and not citing any sources? It's pretty easy to come onto a board and say that people emailed you this and that. You want proof of the USA jerseys, but where is your proof?

The MJ shoes were already signed when the trainer gave us the shoes. He said he had just worked out MJ, and that MJ gave him the shoes he wore and signed them. Therefore, I think the shoes and the autographs are real.

Sir, I quoted an email I received that I will not be posting who emailed me. Please drop it or get a court order. No one can email you, your email is hidden and you have never posted it on this forum.

I have never been accused of intentionally doctoring any item in this industry. I am sorry your name has come up but you should have never become involved with this thread if you cannot take the heat.

I am sorry your shoes have an autograph that 3rd party authenticators have been unable to authenticate. This is not my problem, it just leads to more questions that I really do not care to answer.

I just got off the phone with another industry insider who praised David Archibald and said he may be too trusting of others in this industry and that Mr. Archibald does not appear to be causing any trouble intentionally. I found that really interesting, because I respect the person who told me this. I have emailed David Archibald about this and I hope him and I can come to a mature resolution.

I wish when David Archibald emailed me he had not sent four emails in a matter of minutes to make me think he is insane. Maybe Heritage Auctions is to blame for not doing enough research to properly describe this lot from the very start.

I can tell you this - The more and more you post the more and more questions that arise.

I am going to bed, I just turned off the ringer on my phone and I am taking Michael Vandor's advice and cooling it. I already asked GUU to review this thread and lock it if they find no reason for it to continue in this never-ending circle.

I will gladly post any new findings down the road.

[lund6771]

Was this email from American Memorabilia?


Are they still in business?

[trsent]

Below are the four emails between myself and Tim Grover, the man who owns the gym at allegedly the Team USA practiced at where all 12 members of the team wore special USA jerseys during practices. Please note - William Jones III has told us that the jerseys that originally came from a Las Vegas trainer, then came from privative full practices at Tim Grover's gym. If Tim Grover states that the entire USA Men's Basketball Team never was at the gym at one time - What will a letter from a player add to this debate? Nothing, because there is something wrong with these jerseys. I have notified Chris Ivy of my email correspondence found below, but since he has ignored my emails asking if PSA/DNA examined the signatures I figure he will ignore my latest evidence.

The emails:

From: Joel Alpert [mailto:joel@alpert.net]
Sent: Tuesday, October 21, 2008 7:59 AM
To: info@attackathletics.com
Subject: Attn: Tim Grover

Mr. Grover, please forgive me for bothering you, but I have had some concerns about some alleged practice worn shoes and jerseys that a gentleman, William Jones III, has clamed were worn by the last USA Olympic Basketball Team at workouts in your gym in 2007. The jerseys can be found in the just completed Heritage Auctions listing found in this link: http://sports.ha.com/common/view_item.php?Sale_No=710&Lot_No=20034#Photo (http://sports.ha.com/common/view_item.php?Sale_No=710&Lot_No=20034#Photo)

Now, after asking questions of Heritage Auctions Galleries and on a well known sports memorabilia forum, Game Used Universe, I have been approached by David Archibald and William Jones III. Mr. Archibald is the consignor and Mr. Jones claims to be the originator. They tell me that these jerseys were worn and autographed at private practices attended by all twelve members of the 2008 USA Olympic Men’s Basketball Team at your gym.

Since there is no media relating to these private practices attended by the whole team, I bring it to your attention to ask to help us verify the authenticity of these alleged practice used, autographed jerseys. If you could confirm that the entire USA Dream Team practiced at your gym and they wore custom made jerseys at these practices, it would really help identity these jerseys as being authentic or not.

The main issue I have is that William Jones III and David Archibald has recently had several items being sold on the marketplace with autographs that do not pass third party authentication and the autographs on these jerseys are being questioned. Your reply will not make you liable for the authenticity, but it may help clear up an issue in the sports memorabilia hobby.

If you need a reference on me, I have worked with Jackie Banks and William Wesley over the years. I also am a close friend of Billy Whitney, one of Michael Jordan’s close golfing associates.

I appreciate your reply and time.

Peace.

Joel Alpert
joel@alpert.net (joel@alpert.net)


From: Tim Grover [mailto:info@attackathletics.com]
Sent: Friday, October 24, 2008 11:00 AM
To: 'Joel Alpert'
Subject: RE: Attn: Tim Grover

Joel:
I do not have a facility in Vegas. My facility is in Chicago




From: Joel Alpert [mailto:joel@alpert.net]
Sent: Friday, October 24, 2008 2:46 PM
To: 'Tim Grover'
Subject: RE: Attn: Tim Grover

Tim, I understand that your gym is in Chicago. The auction house changed their story to have nothing to do with Las Vegas. I’ll make my question brief:

Did the entire Dream Team have closed practices at your gym in 2007-2008 where they would have worn Dream Team jerseys found in the link in this auction that the auction house claims were worn at your gym during private practices attended by all 12 Dream Team Members: http://sports.ha.com/common/view_item.php?Sale_No=710&Lot_No=20034#Photo (http://sports.ha.com/common/view_item.php?Sale_No=710&Lot_No=20034#Photo)

The auction ended at over $5000.00 for these jerseys but no one can verify that they were worn and the autographs have been questioned.

Did all 12 members of the Dream Team practice in your gym at the same time with Team USA custom practice jersey?

I appreciate your time!

Peace.

Joel Alpert


From: Tim Grover [mailto:info@attackathletics.com]
Sent: Friday, October 24, 2008 6:34 PM
To: 'Joel Alpert'
Subject: RE: Attn: Tim Grover

No we never had the entire USA Men’s basketball team at our gym at one time

[allstarsplus]

Joel - Good work on getting Tim Grover to respond. It will be interesting what Heritage does with this information.

[wjonesIII]

Below are the four emails between myself and Tim Grover, the man who owns the gym at allegedly the Team USA practiced at where all 12 members of the team wore special USA jerseys during practices. Please note - William Jones III has told us that the jerseys that originally came from a Las Vegas trainer, then came from privative full practices at Tim Grover's gym. If Tim Grover states that the entire USA Men's Basketball Team never was at the gym at one time - What will a letter from a player add to this debate? Nothing, because there is something wrong with these jerseys. I have notified Chris Ivy of my email correspondence found below, but since he has ignored my emails asking if PSA/DNA examined the signatures I figure he will ignore my latest evidence.

The emails:

From: Joel Alpert [mailto:joel@alpert.net]
Sent: Tuesday, October 21, 2008 7:59 AM
To: info@attackathletics.com
Subject: Attn: Tim Grover

Mr. Grover, please forgive me for bothering you, but I have had some concerns about some alleged practice worn shoes and jerseys that a gentleman, William Jones III, has clamed were worn by the last USA Olympic Basketball Team at workouts in your gym in 2007. The jerseys can be found in the just completed Heritage Auctions listing found in this link: http://sports.ha.com/common/view_item.php?Sale_No=710&Lot_No=20034#Photo (http://sports.ha.com/common/view_item.php?Sale_No=710&Lot_No=20034#Photo)

Now, after asking questions of Heritage Auctions Galleries and on a well known sports memorabilia forum, Game Used Universe, I have been approached by David Archibald and William Jones III. Mr. Archibald is the consignor and Mr. Jones claims to be the originator. They tell me that these jerseys were worn and autographed at private practices attended by all twelve members of the 2008 USA Olympic Men’s Basketball Team at your gym.

Since there is no media relating to these private practices attended by the whole team, I bring it to your attention to ask to help us verify the authenticity of these alleged practice used, autographed jerseys. If you could confirm that the entire USA Dream Team practiced at your gym and they wore custom made jerseys at these practices, it would really help identity these jerseys as being authentic or not.

The main issue I have is that William Jones III and David Archibald has recently had several items being sold on the marketplace with autographs that do not pass third party authentication and the autographs on these jerseys are being questioned. Your reply will not make you liable for the authenticity, but it may help clear up an issue in the sports memorabilia hobby.

If you need a reference on me, I have worked with Jackie Banks and William Wesley over the years. I also am a close friend of Billy Whitney, one of Michael Jordan’s close golfing associates.

I appreciate your reply and time.

Peace.

Joel Alpert
joel@alpert.net (joel@alpert.net)


From: Tim Grover [mailto:info@attackathletics.com]
Sent: Friday, October 24, 2008 11:00 AM
To: 'Joel Alpert'
Subject: RE: Attn: Tim Grover

Joel:
I do not have a facility in Vegas. My facility is in Chicago




From: Joel Alpert [mailto:joel@alpert.net]
Sent: Friday, October 24, 2008 2:46 PM
To: 'Tim Grover'
Subject: RE: Attn: Tim Grover

Tim, I understand that your gym is in Chicago. The auction house changed their story to have nothing to do with Las Vegas. I’ll make my question brief:

Did the entire Dream Team have closed practices at your gym in 2007-2008 where they would have worn Dream Team jerseys found in the link in this auction that the auction house claims were worn at your gym during private practices attended by all 12 Dream Team Members: http://sports.ha.com/common/view_item.php?Sale_No=710&Lot_No=20034#Photo (http://sports.ha.com/common/view_item.php?Sale_No=710&Lot_No=20034#Photo)

The auction ended at over $5000.00 for these jerseys but no one can verify that they were worn and the autographs have been questioned.

Did all 12 members of the Dream Team practice in your gym at the same time with Team USA custom practice jersey?

I appreciate your time!

Peace.

Joel Alpert


From: Tim Grover [mailto:info@attackathletics.com]
Sent: Friday, October 24, 2008 6:34 PM
To: 'Joel Alpert'
Subject: RE: Attn: Tim Grover

No we never had the entire USA Men’s basketball team at our gym at one time



First off, nowhere in this thread does it say that the jerseys came from a Las Vegas trainer. I am not sure where you came you with that. Heritage incorrectly posted that. Heritage was told that a trainer who was at the las Vegas practices got the jerseys, so I would appreciate you refraining from incorrectly accusing me of ever saying that.

I also do not know why you keep saying the jerseys were said to have been from 2007. I don't know when they were ordered, but I was told they were worn when the players came to practice with D-Wade. I don't recall writing that I was told they were all worn "together at one time." I did say that the trainer told us that these jerseys were worn by the players at Tim Grover's gym. Tim Grover doesn't dispute that the jerseys were worn there by the players, he just said they weren't all there at one time. His own trainer is the one who said the players wore and signed these custom jerseys.

To make this matter more confusing, Dwyane Wade signed his jersey on the blue side of the jersey while a photo was taken of him doing so. Additionally, he read and signed a letter with the wording shown.

"Letter of Authenticity
The pictured Nike USA Basketball jerseys were worn and signed by the 12 members of the 2008 United States of America Men’s National Basketball Team. The jerseys were custom ordered for the team to wear while they practiced at Tim Grover’s gym during the summer of 2008 in preparation for the Olympics. The workouts and scrimmage games helped Dwyane Wade determine that his injury was healed, and that he was ready for the Olympics. These autographed, practice worn jerseys were given to his personal trainer before the team left for China.

Dwyane Wade"

This letter was drafted based on what the trainer told us, and as you can see does not state all the players were there at one time. Tim Grover has not disputed the jerseys and Dwyane Wade has personally verified them via his signature on this letter. I have nothing more to offer. I wish Tim Grover would have offered up more information. I have done all I could do and asked the source for every bit of information I could. Dwyane Wade verified he gave these jerseys to his trainer. I am not sure what else to do at this point? I will await your reply Joel.

I am also aware Joel says NBA players have often signed game used on items that were not game used. I have seen very few NBA items ever with a game used inscription. Care to share any details Joel?

[trsent]

First off, nowhere in this thread does it say that the jerseys came from a Las Vegas trainer. I am not sure where you came you with that. Heritage incorrectly posted that. Heritage was told that a trainer who was at the las Vegas practices got the jerseys, so I would appreciate you refraining from incorrectly accusing me of ever saying that.

I also do not know why you keep saying the jerseys were said to have been from 2007. I don't know when they were ordered, but I was told they were worn when the players came to practice with D-Wade. I don't recall writing that I was told they were all worn "together at one time." I did say that the trainer told us that these jerseys were worn by the players at Tim Grover's gym. Tim Grover doesn't dispute that the jerseys were worn there by the players, he just said they weren't all there at one time. His own trainer is the one who said the players wore and signed these custom jerseys.

To make this matter more confusing, Dwyane Wade signed his jersey on the blue side of the jersey while a photo was taken of him doing so. Additionally, he read and signed a letter with the wording shown.

"Letter of Authenticity
The pictured Nike USA Basketball jerseys were worn and signed by the 12 members of the 2008 United States of America Men’s National Basketball Team. The jerseys were custom ordered for the team to wear while they practiced at Tim Grover’s gym during the summer of 2008 in preparation for the Olympics. The workouts and scrimmage games helped Dwyane Wade determine that his injury was healed, and that he was ready for the Olympics. These autographed, practice worn jerseys were given to his personal trainer before the team left for China.

Dwyane Wade"

This letter was drafted based on what the trainer told us, and as you can see does not state all the players were there at one time. Tim Grover has not disputed the jerseys and Dwyane Wade has personally verified them via his signature on this letter. I have nothing more to offer. I wish Tim Grover would have offered up more information. I have done all I could do and asked the source for every bit of information I could. Dwyane Wade verified he gave these jerseys to his trainer. I am not sure what else to do at this point? I will await your reply Joel.

I am also aware Joel says NBA players have often signed game used on items that were not game used. I have seen very few NBA items ever with a game used inscription. Care to share any details Joel?

Mr. Jones, you have a million excuses for your items and a lot of stories that change every day.

So, now the players didn't all practice at the same time with Dwayne Wade, but they wore jerseys with their numbers on it when they did? Wow - I could have sworn you told us the jerseys were worn at private practices attended by the USA Team members. They came in small groups now?

The original auction description is clearly an error - Where did that error come from? Don't answer - Let Heritage Auctions answer because as Chris Ivy stated - You do not work for Heritage Auction or answer on their behalf.

Next time a questionable item you have is consigned to an auction house I would recommend letting the auction house answering the questions because your answers have led the public to understand that these jerseys are suspect.

I do not have examples of jerseys of NBA players to show you - I just can tell you have I been at autograph sessions and seen players autograph items as "Game Used" or other similar inscriptions that either were not game used or were not even game jerseys. Many players are numb to inscriptions - They sign whatever and don't ask questions because they don't care.

I know you have contact with Dwayne Wade and Derrick Rose, good for you. In the meantime, more evidence points to these USA jerseys not being what they were advertised. Time and time again, your story changes, Heritage Auctions had an error listing the item from a Las Vegas trainer - Oh they just made that up incorrectly and then the story changed when no photos matched that practice? Now Tim Glover emailed me that the whole team didn't practice there at one time so you have a new story that they came in shifts?

I asked if they were there from 2007-2008 - I gave plenty of time. The first email I only mentioned 2007, the second I asked form 2007-2008. What is the issue? We both know what the issue is - Please let Heritage Auctions handle the issue already as they appear not to be concerned with genuine concerns. Go back and read page one of this thread. Look at your posts then and look at them now - You are a great player of games, sir.

Also, attacking me about the Las Vegas trainer is a joke. I don't care if you said such in your posts here or your emails with David Archibald - The fact is clear - It still states such on the Heritage Auctions web site - "A trainer at the Las Vegas practice facilities for the US Olympic basketball team is the source for this incredible collection of worn and autographed shirts from the Team Redeem, which properly reclaimed the Gold Medal for the Americans in Beijing". It is silly that you accuse me of anything here - Your usual method of debate is to attack me over my comments.

If I were you I would stop while you have a chance and let the auction house handle the concerns like you should have from the start. Attacking the questioner - As always - A strong sign of weakness.

[wjonesIII]

Mr. Jones, you have a million excuses for your items and a lot of stories that change every day.

So, now the players didn't all practice at the same time with Dwayne Wade, but they wore jerseys with their numbers on it when they did? Wow - I could have sworn you told us the jerseys were worn at private practices attended by the USA Team members. They came in small groups now?

The original auction description is clearly an error - Where did that error come from? Don't answer - Let Heritage Auctions answer because as Chris Ivy stated - You do not work for Heritage Auction or answer on their behalf.

Next time a questionable item you have is consigned to an auction house I would recommend letting the auction house answering the questions because your answers have led the public to understand that these jerseys are suspect.

I do not have examples of jerseys of NBA players to show you - I just can tell you have I been at autograph sessions and seen players autograph items as "Game Used" or other similar inscriptions that either were not game used or were not even game jerseys. Many players are numb to inscriptions - They sign whatever and don't ask questions because they don't care.

I know you have contact with Dwayne Wade and Derrick Rose, good for you. In the meantime, more evidence points to these USA jerseys not being what they were advertised. Time and time again, your story changes, Heritage Auctions had an error listing the item from a Las Vegas trainer - Oh they just made that up incorrectly and then the story changed when no photos matched that practice? Now Tim Glover emailed me that the whole team didn't practice there at one time so you have a new story that they came in shifts?

I asked if they were there from 2007-2008 - I gave plenty of time. The first email I only mentioned 2007, the second I asked form 2007-2008. What is the issue? We both know what the issue is - Please let Heritage Auctions handle the issue already as they appear not to be concerned with genuine concerns. Go back and read page one of this thread. Look at your posts then and look at them now - You are a great player of games, sir.

Also, attacking me about the Las Vegas trainer is a joke. I don't care if you said such in your posts here or your emails with David Archibald - The fact is clear - It still states such on the Heritage Auctions web site - "A trainer at the Las Vegas practice facilities for the US Olympic basketball team is the source for this incredible collection of worn and autographed shirts from the Team Redeem, which properly reclaimed the Gold Medal for the Americans in Beijing". It is silly that you accuse me of anything here - Your usual method of debate is to attack me over my comments.

If I were you I would stop while you have a chance and let the auction house handle the concerns like you should have from the start. Attacking the questioner - As always - A strong sign of weakness.


Joel,

I have several responses for this.

The most important thing is that you keep saying I am changing my story. That's not what is happening. I am simply passing along the info I get from the trainer, so quit blaming me. Blame the trainer. If these jerseys are ever proven to not be what I said they are, it would be because the trainer passing along the incorrect information, not me.

As far as this comment goes: "Next time a questionable item you have is consigned to an auction house I would recommend letting the auction house answering the questions because your answers have led the public to understand that these jerseys are suspect." I am not trying to hide anything, so whatever information is found out is good for us all.

"A trainer at the Las Vegas practice facilities for the US Olympic basketball team" This doesn't say the trainer works at Vegas. It was just not clearly written. The trainer was at the Las Vegas practice facilities for the US Olympic basketball players (certain ones) so it's not far off.

Below is a portion of an article online which proves Wade was enlisting help. As to why the players are said to have all came, my guess is that one of these guys helped convince the rest to come, but I wasn't there so I have to rely on the word of the trainer, and D-Wade:

Wade readying for Beijing Olympics, says rehab has 'no problems' so far

Associated Press
Updated: June 8, 2008, 3:45 PM ET

"Wade is spending much of his offseason rehabilitating in Chicago, with eyes on both getting a spot on the Beijing-bound team -- USA Basketball will finalize its Olympic roster later this month -- and ensuring that he's fully healthy when the Heat open training camp in late September.

"Just trying to get my timing back because I haven't played since March," Wade said at a promotion for the annual Zo's Summer Groove, a charity event in South Florida that Heat teammate Alonzo Mourning has asked Wade to help headline this July. "But 5-on-5 went well and I'm looking forward to next week, going back to my second week of 5-on-5 and the competition picking up more. I'm doing my job of trying to bring more competition down to Chicago."

Indeed, he's enlisted some All-Star help.

New Orleans guard Chris Paul will be in Chicago this week for the scrimmages, Wade said, and he's asked another good friend, Carmelo Anthony of the Denver Nuggets, if he's willing to come play later this month. Like Wade, both Paul and Anthony are expected to be at USA Basketball's selection minicamp in Las Vegas during the last week of June."

[jppopma]

Wow! This is tough to follow. So what I am getting is, Dwayne Wade did some rehabilitation work at Mr. Grover's facility. While in rehab, he wanted to do some practice with other USA Olymic members. So....he went and had custom made USA basketball jerseys made for him and the other players he was practicing with so he would have the feel of a real practice. Sounds pretty simple. If that's what gets you through rehab, more power to ya.

If this is true, I guess any player can make up jerseys to wear to practice at home, back yard, gym, etc.....and then later sell them off as being practice worn. Right??????

[trsent]

Just an update. Chris Ivy did email me telling me that Tim Glover's email didn't say that the USA Basketball Team didn't practice, just that the whole team didn't practice at once.

I find Chris Ivy to have a problem as he lives with blinders on. He responds to Tim Glover's reply that the entire team of 12 players never practiced at once at this gym, but he ignores my question that I have asked over and over again. Does Chris Ivy have a problem disclosing if a 3rd party authenticator, who authenticated other lots in his auction, looked at this lot as it was originally advertised as being authenticated by PSA/DNA?

I have since emailed him 3-4 times asking my original question which he has ignored time and time again. The question? Did PSA/DNA inspect the jerseys as originally advertised then removed from the description and if they did, did they deem the autographs unable to authenticate?

I know, many people feel PSA/DNA's opinion doesn't matter, but why if asked about it before the auction ended would you ignore a genuine concern of someone who uses and trusts PSA/DNA's opinion?

Chris Ivy can ignore the fact that all twelve players never practiced at the gym at once per the gym's owner's comments and he can believe that these jerseys, which originally were advertised as coming from a Las Vegas trainer, but then that description was changed due to an odd error, were given to guys to wear when helping Dwayne Wade practice at the gym as they made custom made Team USA jerseys for these small, secret, private practices.

Geez, Dwayne Wade even has alleged autographed a LOA for these jerseys. I guess Dwayne Wade remembers that him and the other eleven players on the Team USA Basketball team came to Tim Glover's gym and wore these jerseys for secret, private, small groups only workouts.

I have no doubt that William Jones III is friendly with Derrek Rose. He may even know Dwayne Wade. I will stand behind my comments and findings and Chris Ivy can be happy that he has potentially defrauded an honest bidder to his auction house because he thinks a LOA from Dwayne Wade means these suspect jerseys for wear and autographs means Tim Glover's stating that the whole team never practiced at his gym at the same time doesn't mean that the jerseys are not genuine, private, secret practice used with suspect autographs (as similar shoes have from the same source).

Keep dreaming, Mr. Ivy. Oh, and maybe you should answer questions that have been asked over and over again about PSA/DNA's inspection or lack of for this lot. Or will the truth hurt to admit?

[wjonesIII]

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[wjonesIII]

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[wjonesIII]

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[wjonesIII]

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[wjonesIII]

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[trsent]

So, your friend Dwayne Wade signed a letter for you?

When were the jerseys worn and autographed by all 12 players? Please elaborate as Tim Glover states the whole team didn't practice at the gym together.

They wore custom made jerseys at small, private practices, all twelve players? Please, please, please elaborate for us all on details. Maybe also include the ordering record for these custom made jerseys to show they were ordered prior to the Las Vegas practices.

Please, please, please keep making up stories and while you are at it, please explain how Heritage Auctions will not answer if PSA/DNA inspected the jerseys and then explain where Heritage Auctions came up with the story, in error, about how the jerseys originated from a Las Vegas trainer, but that story was changed once I started to question the jerseys.

Your new letters are worthless without the above questions being answered. I understand, Mr. Jones, you are friendly with Dwayne Wade and also Derrek Rose. That doesn't prove these jerseys were worn by all twelve members of the Team USA Basketball at Tim Glover's gym at secret, private practices and it doesn't prove all twelve autographs are genuine.

[wjonesIII]

15485

[wjonesIII]

Joel,

I do not know the answer to your questions. I do know the consignor emailed Heritage and said that if PSA/DNA failed the autographs, and they did not admit that, then they should void the sale and do more research. Therefore, if they can prove the jerseys are real, the jerseys can be re-auctioned with an accurate description and all relevant information. I am not okay with the jerseys being sold with all this controversy. The consignor and I agree that if they are fake, they should not be sold. But if they are real, and it can be proven with more research, then they can be better marketed. Heritage should have replied to the PSA/DNA question, and written a better description. Until these facts are known, and bidders know beforehand if the jerseys passed PSA/DNA and/or JSA, then the auction was unfair to all parties. At the same time, the consignor is willing to let Heritage do more research on the jerseys and be up front about the PSA/DNA question.

Every auction house will have issues sometimes. Look at all the items that got berated in the auction run by this forum?

We were told that Kobe's boy "Rev" ordered the jerseys from Nike, but never asked for when, or the order number. I cannot add anymore. Heritage needs to make the decision as to what they will do.

[wjonesIII]

So, your friend Dwayne Wade signed a letter for you?

When were the jerseys worn and autographed by all 12 players? Please elaborate as Tim Glover states the whole team didn't practice at the gym together.

They wore custom made jerseys at small, private practices, all twelve players? Please, please, please elaborate for us all on details. Maybe also include the ordering record for these custom made jerseys to show they were ordered prior to the Las Vegas practices.

Please, please, please keep making up stories and while you are at it, please explain how Heritage Auctions will not answer if PSA/DNA inspected the jerseys and then explain where Heritage Auctions came up with the story, in error, about how the jerseys originated from a Las Vegas trainer, but that story was changed once I started to question the jerseys.

Your new letters are worthless without the above questions being answered. I understand, Mr. Jones, you are friendly with Dwayne Wade and also Derrek Rose. That doesn't prove these jerseys were worn by all twelve members of the Team USA Basketball at Tim Glover's gym at secret, private practices and it doesn't prove all twelve autographs are genuine.

What will prove the autographs are genuine? What authentication must they pass for you to believe the signatures are real? Or can you not be convinced?

[wjonesIII]

I want to know what exactly you want done, after Heritage answers your question about PSA/DNA? What is out job at this point? What information needs to be obtained in order to "prove" these are real?

What information will prove that without a doubt they are fake?

Answer those two questions.

[wjonesIII]

I was told the winning bidder will be allowed to make the final determination as to if he or she wants the lot. What this comes down to is that when JSA authenticated the autographs, that made us and Heritage believe the jerseys were as advertised from the trainer. The autographs are what JSA has determined to be genuine, and that made us believe in the lot enough to offer it for sale. The winning bidder is aware that he or she can decide if they want the lot. If not, Heritage will mail the lot back. I was just told that Heritage will not respond to Joel at this point, as every lot comes with PSA/DNA, JSA, or both. The winning bidder was aware that James Spence Authentication was the only authenticator, so disregard my previous posts. I am sorry that I was not able to prove these jerseys are real with pictures, and am only able to rely on the word of two people who would have been at there. Chris Ivy responded to Joel's emails during the auction, but Joel did not post them. If the winning bidder is satisfied with the items, they have a legal right to own them.

[trsent]

I was told the winning bidder will be allowed to make the final determination as to if he or she wants the lot. What this comes down to is that when JSA authenticated the autographs, that made us and Heritage believe the jerseys were as advertised from the trainer. The autographs are what JSA has determined to be genuine, and that made us believe in the lot enough to offer it for sale. The winning bidder is aware that he or she can decide if they want the lot. If not, Heritage will mail the lot back. I was just told that Heritage will not respond to Joel at this point, as every lot comes with PSA/DNA, JSA, or both. The winning bidder was aware that James Spence Authentication was the only authenticator, so disregard my previous posts. I am sorry that I was not able to prove these jerseys are real with pictures, and am only able to rely on the word of two people who would have been at there. Chris Ivy responded to Joel's emails during the auction, but Joel did not post them. If the winning bidder is satisfied with the items, they have a legal right to own them.

David Archibald, why do you keep posting as William Jones III?

[trsent]

I am confused, Mr. Jones aka David Archibald posting as William Jones III - The auction house will not respond to me because they do not want to answer the question at hand which is did PSA/DNA inspect these autographs and if they did and found the autographs unable to authenticate, why did this major auction house keep the items in their auction?

I know why, because they are greedy. I know how greedy Heritage Auctions is from experience. Now I find that Heritage Auctions will not answer questions about questionable items because they do not want it to be known that integrity and honesty in this industry is more important than full disclosure.

No problems, I'm sure The FBI is reading and will investigate them soon enough for matters such as this.

If Chris Ivy was honorable, he would have replied to my questions about PSA/DNA. I only have emailed him about it 10 plus times now. I hear his father owns the company, I do not know if this is true, but he ignored when I asked who the owner of Heritage Auctions is and for their email address.

In the meantime, I challenge Game Used Universe's moderators to answer why David Archibald is allowed back on this forum to post as William Jones III?

[sammy]

Somebody kill this nonsense.

Let it go and move on to something else to bitch about.

[trsent]

Somebody kill this nonsense.

Let it go and move on to something else to bitch about.

Sammy, if you feel that way, just stop reading the thread. Sort of like the election Tuesday - You can keep hoping the underdog wins, but it doesn't look good with just a few days to go.

All I know is someone is paying $5000.00 for suspect game used jerseys with autographs that are suspect.

Would you want to be the buyer for an item that is suspect and never know the truth? I don't like every thread posted on all forums, so when I get to that point, I stop reading that thread and I don't complain that it has gone on for too long.

I still want to know why the moderators have suspended David Archibald from this forum but they let him post as William Jones III on this forum now.

[nyjetsfan14]

...five emails from David Archibald in a short time was threatening...

So you're saying it is other people who are the unstable ones? Wow, this thread is like a car wreck, you can't help but look on in horror. And then to exhibit such refrain and maturity by not redirecting the topic from a collecting related angle to reflecting your political desires? Very classy stuff.

[wjonesIII]

On behalf of the other party involved, PSA/DNA did not pass the autographs. The position of Heritage Auction galleries is that sometimes PSA/DNA and JSA will disagree, but they both see every item. The say it is not right for them to market a consignors product as having failed PSA/DNA if it passed JSA. I presume they do no want to insult JSA. Additionally, they will run PSA/DNA items if they fail JSA. Both authentication companies are well respected. The winning bidder, it was assured, will know the autographs only passed JSA, not PSA/DNA. I will no longer post in this thread on behalf of behalf of David Archibald and William Jones.

[trsent]

On behalf of the other party involved, PSA/DNA did not pass the autographs. The position of Heritage Auction galleries is that sometimes PSA/DNA and JSA will disagree, but they both see every item. The say it is not right for them to market a consignors product as having failed PSA/DNA if it passed JSA. I presume they do no want to insult JSA. Additionally, they will run PSA/DNA items if they fail JSA. Both authentication companies are well respected. The winning bidder, it was assured, will know the autographs only passed JSA, not PSA/DNA. I will no longer post in this thread on behalf of behalf of David Archibald and William Jones.

Oh great, so you speak for Heritage Auctions now? Chris Ivy emailed me that you do not, so, David Archibald, posting as Williams Jones III, please do not speak for them now.

I have asked Chris Ivy time and time again, and he will not answer if PSA/DNA passed the autographs, and now today you tell me they didn't pass the autographs?

That is great, but Chris Ivy has to answer that question, not a person posting pretending to be another person.

[trsent]

I am trying to figure it out, if PSA/DNA did find all 12 jerseys "unable to authenticate" as William Jones III states being posted by David Archibald who was suspended from Game Used Universe, but has reincarnated as William Jones III, how can JSA then find all 12 autographs genuine?

I can't imagine one authentication company has issues with all 12 autographs, while another finds all 12 genuine.

I have emailed Chris Ivy asking if a coin fails PCGS authentication, do they then send it to NGC hoping they pass it and then put it in their auction?

As for anyone who complains about my posts in this thread, I offered to the Game Used Universe staff to lock this thread and they declined. I have made my points and I make the main point clear again - If David Archibald (as himself and posting as Williams Jones III) the alleged consignor had not gotten involved and let the auction house handle all questions then the items may not have been found to be so questionable.

The changing stories by Williams Jones III and the changing description from Heritage Auctions has led to such a concern over these jerseys. Please, continue to attack me for caring so much now instead of worrying why someone is being taken for $5000.00 while Heritage Auctions backs up questionable memorabilia with a well documented questionable history and background.

[wjonesIII]

Oh great, so you speak for Heritage Auctions now? Chris Ivy emailed me that you do not, so, David Archibald, posting as Williams Jones III, please do not speak for them now.

I have asked Chris Ivy time and time again, and he will not answer if PSA/DNA passed the autographs, and now today you tell me they didn't pass the autographs?

That is great, but Chris Ivy has to answer that question, not a person posting pretending to be another person.

Opps, I should have made that clear. On behalf of William Jones and David Archibald (both people), I feel this thread can die a little if you get your PSA/DNA question answered. This is from the source, and that was what Heritage did. As far as the item description about the trainer being worded wrong, it is because Chris had an employee write the description off of his notes. There was an honest misunderstand and confusion about where the trainer worked, that is all. I have never spoke for Heritage Auctions. I post on behalf of both parties only: David Archibald and William Jones. Sorry i didn't post that clearly. Now I am finished posting in this thread, so don't ask me any more questions until all parties are allowed to post on this forum, and in this thread. I will not answer any more questions through this site unless all parties involved are allowed by GUU to post. Period.

[wjonesIII]

Today is the first day I knew that PSA/DNA did not authenticate the signatures. It was assumed I guess by some, and questioned by you. That is the answer the consignor was given. I didn't know if they did or did not, I was okay with JSA's opinion of the autographs. I never asked the question about PSA/DNA. Now I know, so now you know.

[both-teams-played-hard]

http://img247.imageshack.us/img247/2992/collectorwithtwoheadsud8.jpg

[trsent]

Opps, I should have made that clear. On behalf of William Jones and David Archibald (both people), I feel this thread can die a little if you get your PSA/DNA question answered. This is from the source, and that was what Heritage did. As far as the item description about the trainer being worded wrong, it is because Chris had an employee write the description off of his notes. There was an honest misunderstand and confusion about where the trainer worked, that is all. I have never spoke for Heritage Auctions. I post on behalf of both parties only: David Archibald and William Jones. Sorry i didn't post that clearly. Now I am finished posting in this thread, so don't ask me any more questions until all parties are allowed to post on this forum, and in this thread. I will not answer any more questions through this site unless all parties involved are allowed by GUU to post. Period.

Two things have come up while I traveled all night as my phone rang and rang and rang.

#1 - Did Grey Flannel originally have these jerseys and they returned them because JSA found the autographed "unable to authenticated"? Don't answer, I already know the answer.

#2 - Could we please have PSA/DNA and JSA inspect the autograph on the new letter allegedly signed by Dwyane Wade? Something doesn't look right already with this amazing, newly autographed LOA.

Warren, great photo!

[sammy]

Number of days for this nonsense: 22

Number of posts by Joel: 36

Number of posts by wjones111: 36

Number of people who care about this post: 1

To have this post locked: PRICELESS

[wjonesIII]

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[trsent]

Number of days for this nonsense: 22

Number of posts by Joel: 36

Number of posts by wjones111: 36

Number of people who care about this post: 1

To have this post locked: PRICELESS

Sammy - You are one of those with double standards, huh?

You like to think that an honest person is buying fraudulent, misrepresented memorabilia for $5000.00 should not have this information available?

But if you cared about the topic, you would never shut up.

NOW GET OUT OF THIS DISCUSSION UNLESS YOU PLAN TO ADD ANYTHING USEFUL TO IT ALREADY OR READ SOMETHING ELSE. WHY DO YOU CONTINUE TO INSULT ME FOR INVESTIGATING WHAT I FIND TO BE A FRAUDULENT $5000.00 SALE? YOU HAVE NO CONCERNS ABOUT FRAUD IN OUR INDUSTRY? YOU WANT SOMEONE TO BE SCREWED OUT OF THEIR GOOD MONEY FOR BAD MEMORABILIA?

You do not have to read this thread - It has been viewed over 2200 times, and with the number of calls I received last night about this thread someone is reading it and cannot believe what has been almost pulled off.

Latest news - The new LOA from Dwayne Wade will not pass 3rd party authentication - I know, you don't care - SO TAKE A HIKE IF YOU DO NOT CARE.

Why do some people think they are our Lord and Savior? What a jerk. Go preach to people who care.

[trsent]

Number of days for this nonsense: 22

Number of posts by Joel: 36

Number of posts by wjones111: 36

Number of people who care about this post: 1

To have this post locked: PRICELESS

Sam Johnson, is your only purpose on this forum to insult people and direct people to the Autograph Alert web site? I just looked at your last 150 posts and almost every one either insults someone or raves about the mysterious Autograph Alert web site?

If you really like that site, you should love the issues of the autographs in this thread. Or are you just bored so you wish to stir up trouble as over 25% of your posts are insulting someone.

[sammy]

Take your own advice Joel.




Why do some people think they are our Lord and Savior? What a jerk. Go preach to people who care.