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View Full Version : Marcus Allen SB XVIII Helmet?



mvandor
10-12-2008, 09:07 AM
An ebay seller claims to be selling the helmet Marcus Allen wore as MVP of SB XVIII in the 1984 game.

http://cgi.ebay.com/Marcus-Allen-MVP-84-Super-Bowl-Game-Helmet-Autographed_W0QQitemZ190258809303QQihZ009QQcategor yZ27276QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

Oddly, markings on the ebay helmet look very different from pics of the game. Further, Helmet Hut has what they claim to be that particular helmet pictured on their website.

http://www.helmethut.com/allen.html

Not only is Helmet Hut quite reputable but their lid is much more consistent with game pics I could find.

Comments?

aeneas01
10-12-2008, 09:32 AM
both helmets, the ebay lid and helmet hut lid, have issues. or better put, neither helmet is allen's "retired" sb helmet given that markings and decals do not match. but it's very likely that allen continued to wear his sb lid the following season (or longer) which would explain this. in short, if allen did in fact shelf his sb helmet immediately after the game, never to wear it again, it is not one of these helmets.

what's great about the hh lid is that it accurately refelects the custom pac3 padding allen wore in his wd lid - i have game footage that clearly confirms this oddity. on the other hand hh's lid sports a red dot facemask and allen wore a green dot facemask. also, allen wore vinyly jaw pads during his first two seasons in the nfl, including the super bowl. he switched to leather jaw pads in the 1984 - the hh helmet sports leather jaw pads.

i've asked the ebay seller for a shot of the inside of the helmet - it will be interesting to see if it's also fitted with pac3 padding. one thing is for certain imo, allen didn't wear two lids in sb18.

...

wjonesIII
10-12-2008, 09:42 AM
An ebay seller claims to be selling the helmet Marcus Allen wore as MVP of SB XVIII in the 1984 game.

http://cgi.ebay.com/Marcus-Allen-MVP-84-Super-Bowl-Game-Helmet-Autographed_W0QQitemZ190258809303QQihZ009QQcategor yZ27276QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem


Oddly, markings on the ebay helmet look very different from pics of the game. Further, Helmet Hut has what they claim to be that particular helmet pictured on their website.

http://www.helmethut.com/allen.html

Not only is Helmet Hut quite reputable but their lid is much more consistent with game pics I could find.

Comments?


Two people with the same helmet. This reminds me of the one game style Elway jersey auctioned off by what was it......four different auction houses? Those two seller should get together and figure this out. I'd like to hear if Marcus Allen says he has the helmet.

RKGIBSON
10-12-2008, 10:30 AM
This Super Bowl helmet was offered to me years ago for $7500.00, which was big money then. It was supposedly sourced from the long time waterboy of the Raiders called, Ray-Ray, I believe. I tried back then to find pictures but could not. It sold in a auction, maybe Lelands. If it is real it would be a great piece.

Roger

DrJ
10-12-2008, 01:15 PM
How about the shipping and handling charges for the Allen helmet, $220 and change - wow. For that price it had better be delivered by armored car.

mvandor
10-14-2008, 11:31 AM
More info on this one. Seller has responded to my emails, is named Kenton Lee, and he's provided a legible copy of the LOA as below:

http://thevandors.com/ma.jpg

I note the logo seems tilted on the letterhead which caused some questions in my mind as to whether it's true letterhead or not, further it refers to a SI cover where Allen is playing against the Seahawks, clearly not from that SB, so how can you photo match from that?

The story seems to be that the lid left service immediately following the SB, but it lacks identifiable marks from pics I've looked at and I can't match the red/yellow impact marks on the right logo decal.

Just additional info.

mvandor
10-14-2008, 03:24 PM
Well, I just watched the America's Game video of the game carefully on an HDTV and am 100% certain the ebay lid does not match the lid worn in the SB by Allen. Very visible impact mark differences, further his SB lid used clear plastic clips not the old grey ones shown on the ebay lid.

helmets
10-14-2008, 04:36 PM
I got the Superbowl helmet. I got it from some snot nosed kid named Riff-Raff. I had Marcus sign it and it has been authenticated.

Vandor, let me know where those hit marks belong. I will do some wacking tonight...

Aeneas, you wouldn't happen to know where I could get a kelly green paint pen. I don't need a lot of paint for my project...

mvandor
10-14-2008, 04:42 PM
May I ask which vendor put that lid together for you? They did a nice job.

mvandor
10-14-2008, 04:48 PM
May I ask which vendor put that lid together for you? They did a nice job.
BTW, the clips on yours ARE correct, his lid like yours and the Helmet Hut one used clear plastic clips on the front and the grey plastic on the sides. I misstated this in an earlier post.

aeneas01
10-14-2008, 05:20 PM
playoffs and super bowl photos - same torn stripe throughout the postseason games.

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y238/aeneas1/macomp01.jpg

ebay helmet and helmet hut helmet - no damage to the stripe :

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y238/aeneas1/macomp04.jpg

side facemask clip location comparison - super bowl photo vs ebay helmet:

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y238/aeneas1/MACOMP03.jpg


given the letter states the helmet was taken from allen immediately after the super bowl, i think it's pretty obvious that it's not the same helmet allen wore. the location of the side facemask clips also easily disqualifies this helmet as allen's sb gamer. and, of course, allen sported transparent clips at the top of his facemask as mentioned.

fwiw allen was known to have worn a modified wd helmet - the ebay helmet is clearly a pac3. i have conclusive photo evidence confirming that allen wore a modified wd after the sb18 season but i don't have conclusive evidence confirming that he wore a modified wd during sb18 or during previous seasons.

btw, very nice reproduction "helmets"! although ma wore a green dot!

...

aeneas01
10-14-2008, 05:24 PM
here's a good shot of the inside of allen's lid - circa 1985...

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y238/aeneas1/PDVD_154.jpg

...

helmets
10-14-2008, 05:28 PM
btw, very nice reproduction "helmets"! although ma wore a green dot!

...

Hence, the need for your paint pen.

I gotta go...I have a center stripe to tear...

aeneas01
10-15-2008, 06:41 AM
Hence, the need for your paint pen. I gotta go...I have a center stripe to tear...

:) :) :) :) :)

btw, did you win that great looking bengals gamer on ebay? it was a tak29 with a full cage dungard - sold for $600+ last month or so...

some other helmet notes...

- didn't realize you had a website with gamers for sale, it's very nice.

- i've been loking for a vintage tk5, recently found one on ebay and made the seller a reasonable offer (which i don't do very often, contact an ebay sellers that is) - he turned me down, said he was in need of money and thought it would go for more. i ended up winning it for half what i offered - there was zero interest in the helmet (or it flew under the radar) and i got a great deal.

- recession? what recession? vintage riddell helmet lamps have been going for some good $$$ - with and without the lamp parts. a great looking rams lamp (complete) just sold for $400+, a redskins and cowboys lamp shell (without lamp parts) just sold for $300 and $400 respectively and a patriots lamp shell with a helmet hut reproduction suspension unit just sold for $500.

- is ebayer "canton_collectibles" a forum member? he lists some nice helmets on ebay. he also picks up helmets on ebay and relists them with a buy-it-now at 3 times his purchase price using long-term auctions.

- my nicest, most recent pick up - a 1964 rk2 giants gamer. lots of game wear, a real beauty. now if i can just get my hands on some quality thin-mil number decals, a "1" and a "4" would be nice, and a black magic marker...

- a griese/hadl dungard is getting a lot of attention on ebay - and it's bent to hell.

- i looked at quite a few vintage helmets recently that will be featured in an upcoming auction, some real beauties. as it turned out, some were not as described but they were real beauties nonetheless - a couple of very rare models. hope the auction runs with them anyway even tho they weren't what they were hoping...

- there are two guys out there that make tremendous clear shell reproductions - no easy feat. they are really works of art. one of the guys emailed me some photos of a recent clear shell raiders lid he just finished - stunning. i'm not much into reproductions but these things are a definite exception.

- a few months ago i was asked to look at a gamer said to have once belonged to a hall of famer. great looking lid, a ton to like, but one of the rivets didn't look right even though this player was known to have worn a helmet with a modified rivet, which could be seen in photos. so the problem was not that the rivet was modified but the way it was mounted - very odd, not done with a standard helmet rivet tool and it seemed debatable whether or not it could hold up. lampson, who apparently loa'd the helmet, explained that it was in fact a shoulder pad rivet and that this team was known to do this. taking another look at it, it was clear that it was indeed a shoulder pad rivet. i'm telling you, lampson does know his shat...

...

mvandor
10-15-2008, 09:14 AM
I did email the seller yesterday about all the specific probs with his lid, but no response, and auction is still running.

helmets
10-15-2008, 08:41 PM
btw, did you win that great looking bengals gamer on ebay? it was a tak29 with a full cage dungard - sold for $600+ last month or so...Yes, great helmet.

some other helmet notes...

- didn't realize you had a website with gamers for sale, it's very nice. Yes, have listed helmets that are not "keepers." I have many more to go, but just no time and no HTML ability...

- i've been loking for a vintage tk5, recently found one on ebay and made the seller a reasonable offer (which i don't do very often, contact an ebay sellers that is) - he turned me down, said he was in need of money and thought it would go for more. i ended up winning it for half what i offered - there was zero interest in the helmet (or it flew under the radar) and i got a great deal. Yes, you got an awesome deal on that helmet. I meant to bid on it and missed it. I was glad to see that you got it, and at the price you did.

- recession? what recession? vintage riddell helmet lamps have been going for some good $$$ - with and without the lamp parts. a great looking rams lamp (complete) just sold for $400+, a redskins and cowboys lamp shell (without lamp parts) just sold for $300 and $400 respectively and a patriots lamp shell with a helmet hut reproduction suspension unit just sold for $500. Yes, I saw those prices. Quite high for helmet lamps...

- is ebayer "canton_collectibles" a forum member? he lists some nice helmets on ebay. he also picks up helmets on ebay and relists them with a buy-it-now at 3 times his purchase price using long-term auctions.

- my nicest, most recent pick up - a 1964 rk2 giants gamer. lots of game wear, a real beauty. now if i can just get my hands on some quality thin-mil number decals, a "1" and a "4" would be nice, and a black magic marker...

- a griese/hadl dungard is getting a lot of attention on ebay - and it's bent to hell. It looks like a factory bend to me. Most had that bend in the middle of the lower bar, that kind of formed a "v" shape.

- a few months ago i was asked to look at a gamer said to have once belonged to a hall of famer. great looking lid, a ton to like, but one of the rivets didn't look right even though this player was known to have worn a helmet with a modified rivet, which could be seen in photos. so the problem was not that the rivet was modified but the way it was mounted - very odd, not done with a standard helmet rivet tool and it seemed debatable whether or not it could hold up. lampson, who apparently loa'd the helmet, explained that it was in fact a shoulder pad rivet and that this team was known to do this. taking another look at it, it was clear that it was indeed a shoulder pad rivet. i'm telling you, lampson does know his shat...Lou has some of those rivets in his suitcase...

mvandor
10-16-2008, 10:31 AM
Seller has made it clear to me he's sticking to his LOA and sale, facts be damned. Just FYI for all here.

aeneas01
10-16-2008, 01:05 PM
Seller has made it clear to me he's sticking to his LOA and sale, facts be damned. Just FYI for all here.

imo the helmet never belonged to allen - and i also think it's pretty obvious that it's simply not his sb18 lid. if you look at images of allen through the years (getty, wire, film footage), you would be very hard pressed to find a single instance of him sporting a shell with the side facemask clips mounted so closely to the helmet's front edge. the drill hole locations found on the ebay helmet seem to imply the mounting of a facemask that was too small for the shell - for example a red dot schutt mounted to a large riddell cell helmet. or perhaps reverse clips although even reverse clips aren't normally mounted so closely to a helmet's edge.

the top two photos show allen during his sb18 season - note where the side facemask clip screws are mounted. below are two photos of the ebay lid - the red dots roughly indicate where the clip screws should be.


http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y238/aeneas1/rivet.jpg


Yes, great helmet.
congrats - that is a beauty...

Yes, have listed helmets that are not "keepers." I have many more to go, but just no time and no HTML ability...
although not the rarest of lids, you do have some nice helmets displayed.

Yes, I saw those prices. Quite high for helmet lamps...
i wouldn't say the prices were quite high - i've seen them often go for this amount in the past (especially rams, vikings and lions). i was just surprised that given the supposed state of the economy, collectors were still willing to shell out this amount for these type of pieces - especially considering they can go for around $100 or so...

It looks like a factory bend to me. Most had that bend in the middle of the lower bar, that kind of formed a "v" shape.
i was actually referring to the mounting area, not the factory bend. it looked like it had been additionally bent, manually, to fit a certain size helmet (which was required with dungards given they were not offered in different sizes). bending these babies is no easy task - i know, i've done it! btw it ended up selling for $180 - not too shabby. earlier this year i passed on a youth helmet mounted with the same facemask - the helmet alone was worthless. i think it ended up selling for around $40 - i should have pulled the trigger!

btw ebayer "canton_collectibles" ended all of his vintage helmet auctions and relisted them with a starting price of $9.99 - coincidence?


...

helmets
10-16-2008, 02:25 PM
Yes, I noticed ol' CC relisted with no BIN. I've bought two helmets from him in the last month. I think they were both "ID Private" so you didn't know it was me that pulled the trigger. -- Didn't want you to think I overpaid for them. The only problem with ol' CC is that he does not accept Paypal. Pain in the arse for me to send a check, but hey, sometimes the right helmet makes it worth it...

We need to start a thread - "Show me your NFL GU Helmet." Majority of threads are about bats. I get a warm fuzzy when I see a topic about football helmets.

Yes, I agree on this ebay "Allen" lid. Is it just me or are the numbers on the rear in mint - new condition. The center stripe on the rear is beat, along with the helmet, but then you look at the numbers, and they are new. That is one of the reasons that I have never sold numbers, or any decals for that matter. I have received thousands of requests for numbers and decals and have turned down 99% of them. When you can't control what they are going to do with them, then you get this sort of thing. IMO it is a Raiders GU helmet, but not MA's.

So Robert, start the thread. You have 1,000 members wanting to see some of your helmets, yet they are mysteriously tucked away for only a select few to enjoy. I will follow each one of your posts with one of my own. Then you can put the photos of mine and other members helmets into your database, and Lou can print them for his suitcase...

mvandor
10-18-2008, 07:37 PM
Amazingly, this obvious fraud is up to $4,000 and hasn't cleared reserve.

Are people so free with their money in a recession as to TRUST any listing without minimal effort to photomatch???

Incredible.

aeneas01
10-19-2008, 07:23 AM
Amazingly, this obvious fraud is up to $4,000 and hasn't cleared reserve. Are people so free with their money in a recession as to TRUST any listing without minimal effort to photomatch??? Incredible.

closed at over $5k without the reserve being met - mama mia...

mvandor
10-19-2008, 10:14 AM
Seller is nothing but a failed crook in my book. He was provided a link to this thread and provided clear evidence he doesn't have what he thinks he has, yet all he would say to me is "stop harrassing me". I advised him to try and return it for refund to his source, yet the greedy fraud runs the auction to the end. Unbelevably, he actually lowered the reserve once but $5,000 wasn't enough to satisfy his criminal greed.

Amazing.

kdogtheband is a clear avoid if any of you run into him on ebay.

RKGIBSON
12-08-2008, 08:12 PM
I am bumping this tread because the owner contacted me and wants to have a conference call with the guy he bought it from tomorrow. I think the information offered up here is the best way to start the conversation. I'll keep you posted.

Roger

aeneas01
12-09-2008, 10:36 AM
I am bumping this tread because the owner contacted me and wants to have a conference call with the guy he bought it from tomorrow. I think the information offered up here is the best way to start the conversation. I'll keep you posted.

Roger

interesting.

aeneas01
12-12-2008, 04:30 AM
any news?