AMI: "1998 Canseco helmet"

[kingjammy24]

one of the more interesting pieces i've seen in a long time.

http://www.americanmemorabilia.com/Auction_Item.asp?Auction_ID=46817

it says it comes with a letter from an agent letter and was acquired directly from canseco. there's even a "1998 gamer" inscription in what appears to be jose's genuine penmanship. the first time canseco ever played for the jays was 1998. 1998 was his only year with them.

take note of the blue jays logo on the helmet. it's the original jays logo that the jays used from 1977-1996. in 1997, the jays completely redesigned their logo. their new logo was this:

http://img91.imageshack.us/img91/130/batve8.jpg

chris creamer's logo page confirms this: http://www.sportslogos.net/team.php?id=78

here are some photos of jose in 1998, starting in spring training:

http://img262.imageshack.us/img262/2839/bat2oa1.jpg

by the time canseco joined the jays for the first time in '98, they were already into the second year of their new logo. the auction description says that the helmet was made in may of 1996 "and probably stored until Canseco used it".

unbelievable really. who needs to check getty when you can just completely coast on the sweet provenance of a canseco inscription?

rudy.

[CansecoPower33]

I'd be 99% sure that this helmet wasn't used by Canseco in a game situation. Maybe someone here knows something of the nature of the relationship between Jose and the South Florida Sports Council. Judging by the pine tar, and, of course, assuming all is above board, it could be a helmet that Jose used in field drills/BP. It does say that it was acquired "directly for" Jose. If this is not a misprint, then I'd doubt Canseco ever laid hands on the helmet prior to his signing it.

[kingjammy24]

I'd be 99% sure that this helmet wasn't used by Canseco in a game situation. Maybe someone here knows something of the nature of the relationship between Jose and the South Florida Sports Council. Judging by the pine tar, and, of course, assuming all is above board, it could be a helmet that Jose used in field drills/BP. It does say that it was acquired "directly for" Jose. If this is not a misprint, then I'd doubt Canseco ever laid hands on the helmet prior to his signing it.

i've tried to think of all of the possible angles on this helmet and can't think of a single legit one where canseco would've used it in a game. i thought maybe he might've used it in the very first few games of spring training as the jays might've not had a new-logo helmet in his size. obviously that's not true as the getty pictures show him in early spring training wearing his new-logo helmet. there are pics on getty of him as early as feb 26 wearing the new-logo helmet. besides, i don't think wearing that old helmet for literally 3 or 4 games would lead to that amount of pine tar buildup. so he had his new-logo helmet in very early spring training and obviously he had it during the 1998 season.

i don't believe it's a throwback helmet because i don't believe the jays had any throwback games in 1998 and even if they did, they would've honored a previous team/style older than 4 yrs. (the solid all-blue helmets were used full-time around 93/94. previously, they shared duty with two-color blue/white helmets). the 70s and 80s jays exclusively used blue/white helmets.

so if jose had his regulation, new-logo helmet at the start of spring training then why would he ever reach into old stock for drills/BP? it doesn't make any sense that the equipment manager would give him an old style helmet that none of the other jays were using.

another angle: jose, knowing he had to donate "his helmet", had the jays equipment manager give him an old one and doll it up with the #44 (no jay in 1996 wore #44) for the sole purpose of giving it away. even this doesn't make much sense because the manager could've just as easily fetched a stock new-logo helmet. if, in 1998, canseco asked for a helmet to give away, wouldn't be odd to fetch an old, out-of-style one? UNLESS the equipment manager didn't want to give away a new one and figured that the old ones were never going to be used again so he'd rather give away an old one. maybe he figured noone would notice. of course this means that either the equipment manager and/or canseco intentionally deceived folks.

this isn't even a case of canseco being mistaken when he wore it as he wasn't even on the jays by the time they switched logos. as i said, by the time he joined them they were already into their second year with the new logo. plenty of time for all of the old stock to be gone and time to order lots of helmets with the new logo.

none of it makes any sense. what i find amusing is that AMI entirely coasted on the provenance. if canseco donated a pair of ballerina flats with a letter saying he wore them in the 1990 world series, they'd run with it no questions asked.

rudy.

[CollectGU]

I'd be 99% sure that this helmet wasn't used by Canseco in a game situation. Maybe someone here knows something of the nature of the relationship between Jose and the South Florida Sports Council. Judging by the pine tar, and, of course, assuming all is above board, it could be a helmet that Jose used in field drills/BP. It does say that it was acquired "directly for" Jose. If this is not a misprint, then I'd doubt Canseco ever laid hands on the helmet prior to his signing it.


It seems the South Florida Sports Council was set up by Canseco and his agent Juan who is a member of the forum. Perhaps he can explain the helmet;

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/2008/03/29/2008-03-29_jose_cansecos_former_business_partner_is-1.html

[CansecoPower33]

I'd like to think it's an honest mistake on someone's part. The fact that there was no #44 in 1996 would narrow the explanations down to an intentional effort to deceive, and Canseco actually using the helmet in some unofficial capacity.

I remember reading that article on Canseco's memorabilia company. Any ideas on who else was involved in running the business, as Iglesias does not appear to be that person?

[kingjammy24]

1) the #44. when canseco first joined the jays in spring training 1998, he didn't wear #44. he wore #00. this number wasn't officially recorded because he never wore it during the regular season. however, he did wear #00 well through most of spring training before eventually switching to #44. therefore, if the helmet has a #44 on it, then clearly canseco didn't wear it during spring training and the assumption, from the number, is that he wore it during the regular season.

http://img87.imageshack.us/img87/6685/batyw3.jpg

now, canseco wore #44 for most of the regular season but not all. he switched numbers again to #33. this occurred sometime in early august after ed sprague, who'd been wearing #33, was traded from the jays to the a's. so the #44 implies it was worn prior to august.

anyway, i emailed juan. we'll see what he says.

rudy.

[CansecoPower33]

Nice find on the 00 spring training number. I think I may own the bat in the last pic (definitely photomatched one from getty a couple of years ago).

[GrndSlm]

Rudy, I appreciate the email in asking me to comment. Thats the professional way of doing business....Now CollectGU started off on the wrong foot ! I never fooled South Florida Sports Council because I was South Florida Sports Council. I am the agent that signed that letter and every piece of memorabilia that Jose sold (during that time ) came with my letter and signature. Now, Jose and his cousin were the ones that collected and inventoried the game used stuff....I personal kept alot of it for my personal collection. Now, I really dont have an answer for the Logo difference. I can try and research this myself but I would need to get Jose's input. I seriously doubt that he would remember a 10 year old helmet.
Many of you know me on this forum. I have collected and sold game used stuff for 25 years and never have had a problem. Unfortunately, this item came to me from the player directly and I cant research passed the time it was on my desk. I promise that I will reach out to Jose today but I dont know if he will remember, answer or care about this.

Also, it will be irresponsible on anyones part to fault AMI because they contacted me directly about all these items. I told them that any item with a SFSC letter was signed by me and purchased from Jose directly. They are NOT at fault here becasue the Player authenticated the item directly and no dealer or auction house can mistrust that info.

You must also remember that this was a business that Jose ran. All the game used stuff was sold through me but the cash went to Jose.

I will do my best to figure this out.

Thanks,
Juan Iglesias
GrndSlm@aol.com

[CollectGU]

Rudy, I appreciate the email in asking me to comment. Thats the professional way of doing business....Now CollectGU started off on the wrong foot ! I never fooled South Florida Sports Council because I was South Florida Sports Council.


Juan,

Just to be accurate, I was simply stating that perhaps you should be asked directly about this, which is what Rudy resposnibly did. I did not accuse you of anything.

Regards,
Dave

[hblakewolf]

Rudy, I appreciate the email in asking me to comment. Thats the professional way of doing business....Now CollectGU started off on the wrong foot ! I never fooled South Florida Sports Council because I was South Florida Sports Council. I am the agent that signed that letter and every piece of memorabilia that Jose sold (during that time ) came with my letter and signature. Now, Jose and his cousin were the ones that collected and inventoried the game used stuff....I personal kept alot of it for my personal collection. Now, I really dont have an answer for the Logo difference. I can try and research this myself but I would need to get Jose's input. I seriously doubt that he would remember a 10 year old helmet.
Many of you know me on this forum. I have collected and sold game used stuff for 25 years and never have had a problem. Unfortunately, this item came to me from the player directly and I cant research passed the time it was on my desk. I promise that I will reach out to Jose today but I dont know if he will remember, answer or care about this.

Also, it will be irresponsible on anyones part to fault AMI because they contacted me directly about all these items. I told them that any item with a SFSC letter was signed by me and purchased from Jose directly. They are NOT at fault here becasue the Player authenticated the item directly and no dealer or auction house can mistrust that info.

You must also remember that this was a business that Jose ran. All the game used stuff was sold through me but the cash went to Jose.

I will do my best to figure this out.

Thanks,
Juan Iglesias
GrndSlm@aol.com

I purchased quite a few high end game used items from Juan many years ago. From my personal experience, his items were 100% legit and I've never had an issue with him or his equipment. On a side note, Juan, hook me up with Chicken Willie for Jordan's game used batting helmet!

Howard Wolf
hblakewolf@comcast.net

[kingjammy24]

juan

thanks very much for replying. always good to get your insight on canseco items, especially ones that came from you.

"it will be irresponsible on anyones part to fault AMI because they contacted me directly about all these items. I told them that any item with a SFSC letter was signed by me and purchased from Jose directly. They are NOT at fault here becasue the Player authenticated the item directly and no dealer or auction house can mistrust that info."

i believe AMI is at fault for the very same reason you believe they aren't; because they chose to rely entirely on the provenance.

i don't understand how can you can say that "no dealer or auction house" can mistrust a player's word. why can't they? because players and agents never lie or make mistakes? juan, we've all seen players make mistakes. AMI owes it to their clients, who pay a 20% premium, to check every single item out regardless of the provenance. AMI is at fault for failing to do their due diligence and spend even 1 minute on getty checking the style of the helmet. getty's free for crying out loud. AMI was, as usual, sloppy and lazy. they contacted you, you said the helmet was good, and they called it a day. fabulous. way to earn that 20%. even with the provenance, AMI should've spent 2 min on getty, seen that the style was wrong and inquired with you as to how jose could wear a style that the jays stopped using almost 2 yrs before he even arrived.

anyway, we have photographic evidence that jose, at the very start of spring training '98, had a proper helmet. we also have photographic evidence that he had a proper helmet throughout the '98 season. the only possibility that comes to mind for this helmet to be legit is perhaps jose's proper helmet was lost/stolen and the jays didn't have a single proper replacement so they dug into old stock. however, the helmet has a decent accumulation of tar on it indicating it was worn for multiple games and it's really tough to swallow the idea of jose out there, for multiple games, wearing a helmet completely different from the rest of the team because the jays couldn't get him a proper replacement asap. apparently, noone else on the team who wore the same size could lend him their helmet.

rudy.

[GrndSlm]

Rudy, I understand your opinion and how you can blame auction houses. They contacted me to see the legitimacy of the SFSC letter and thats it. Ten years ago there wasnt any Getty to photomatch anything so I do believe that more research has to be made .
Now, since my name is out there and Im the one in the "collecting world" then I will make good on anything that comes out bad from Jose with my letter. I really dont think that I did anything wrong because Jose would sit at my desk and hand me memorabilia to sell. Thats it and nothing else.! I had absolutely zero reason to doubt the item.

thanks,
Juan

[kingjammy24]

juan

no prob. i think everyone knows you're a solid guy with an amazing canseco collection.
anyway, back to this helmet. have you figured anything out about it yet?
have you contacted victor? i have. no reply.
are you going to let the item ride?
funny thing is, there's already 1 bid on it. now, if you received the item directly from jose and even you can't explain it, then i'd love to know why that 1 person bid. i have to assume they didn't even bother looking at any photos from '98 and i don't see how they could know some behind-the-scenes story about it since even you can't explain it. it's crazy when people bid on things they don't understand. i guess they view the auction houses as the "experts" who'll protect them. even though i don't doubt your story about receiving it from jose himself, the thing just makes no sense and until the facts explaining its legit use come forward, i couldn't imagine bidding on it myself. how would i ever explain it to anyone, including myself? it's a crazy helmet.

rudy.

[kingjammy24]

so AMI recently released some more photos of this canseco helmet and..it only gets worse. ever since their inception in 1977, the jays have used a unique number font for their jerseys that no other team in the majors used. they used the same number font from 1977-1996 and after the 1997 redesign, they used a modified version of that font which was still unique. it's a curvy font easily identified by the use of an inlay. now, throughout the 90s and into 2000+, the number stickers on the back of the jays helmets were reproductions of the same font that they used on the back of their jerseys. see the devon white jersey and back of devon white's helmet below. going into 1998 and 1999, the jays continued to use the pre-97 number font on the back of their helmets. around 2000, they had new stickers made up that resembled their slightly revised number font. at no time, in my memory, during any year in the 90s and into 2000+, did the jays ever wear standard block number stickers like those seen on the AMI helmet.

http://img247.imageshack.us/img247/1908/bat2yz3.jpg

rudy.

[hblakewolf]

so AMI recently released some more photos of this canseco helmet and..it only gets worse. ever since their inception in 1977, the jays have used a unique number font for their jerseys that no other team in the majors used. they used the same number font from 1977-1996 and after the 1997 redesign, they used a modified version of that font which was still unique. it's a curvy font easily identified by the use of an inlay. now, throughout the 90s and into 2000+, the number stickers on the back of the jays helmets were reproductions of the same font that they used on the back of their jerseys. see the devon white jersey and back of devon white's helmet below. going into 1998 and 1999, the jays continued to use the pre-97 number font on the back of their helmets. around 2000, they had new stickers made up that resembled their slightly revised number font. at no time, in my memory, during any year in the 90s and into 2000+, did the jays ever wear standard block number stickers like those seen on the AMI helmet.

http://img247.imageshack.us/img247/1908/bat2yz3.jpg

rudy.

Rudy-
Based on the initial finding that the helmet style was not worn during Canseco's time with the team, and now this issue with the incorrect numbers, have you contacted Vic or his sidekick Keeta at AMI with your research? If indeed you've presented them with this information (or better yet, just send them this thread), what was their response?

Howard Wolf
hlakewolf@comcast.net

[CollectGU]

Wasn't Juan investigating this and getting back to them? His COA is with the item....I'm sure Juan will inform them if he hasn't already.

Regards,
Dave

[mvandor]

http://img87.imageshack.us/img87/6685/batyw3.jpg



The 44 on the back of the lid in the last pic IS in a similar font to the AMI lid isn't it?

[CollectGU]

Mvandor,

Nice catch...they look to be the same font. Thereare still issues with the helmet but the number font does not appear to be one of them based on that photo.

Dave

[kingjammy24]

Mvandor,

Nice catch...they look to be the same font. Thereare still issues with the helmet but the number font does not appear to be one of them based on that photo.

Dave

oh stop it dave. so there's canseco out there not only wearing the wrong style helmet but also the wrong stickers because the jays ran out of "4" stickers that day.

listen, in '98, the jays wore their old pre-97 stickers. that photo of canseco you're referring to looks like he's more than likely wearing those pre-97 stickers that all the rest of the team wore. they wore old style stickers on their new style helmets. i'm guessing they were just using up a glut of old stock. certainly seems more reasonable than them actually running out of "4" stickers. mvandor's catch only shows that he's not wearing the newer stickers but the team only started using those in '99/2000, after canseco was long off the team. check out the pre-97 stickers.
there's no catch here. if there is, i'd say that the photos show that the AMI "4" clearly isn't the same font as seen in the pic you refer to because of how much the red circled portion sticks out.

http://img404.imageshack.us/img404/6829/batvo8.jpg

the number font is as much an issue as ever.

rudy.

[kingjammy24]

1. photo #3 is the canseco photo you guys say is a match to the AMI helmet

2. in saying "definitely not these" and "definitely this", i was being sarcastic.

rudy.

[CollectGU]

Rudy,

No one is saying it is a photo match we were just saying that refutes Howard's statement - " at no time, in my memory, during any year in the 90s and into 2000+, did the jays ever wear standard block number stickers like those seen on the AMI helmet" Thre a ton of issues with this helmet and I wouln't touch it myself and don't even thibk it should be auctioned Hopefully we'll here back from Juan on this as it is his COA and name attached to it right now and if I were him, I would ask it be pulled...

Regards,
Dave

[hblakewolf]

Rudy,

No one is saying it is a photo match we were just saying that refutes Howard's statement - " at no time, in my memory, during any year in the 90s and into 2000+, did the jays ever wear standard block number stickers like those seen on the AMI helmet" Thre a ton of issues with this helmet and I wouln't touch it myself and don't even thibk it should be auctioned Hopefully we'll here back from Juan on this as it is his COA and name attached to it right now and if I were him, I would ask it be pulled...

Regards,
Dave

Dave-

I suggest you get your facts correct before quoting me or other forum readers in your posts. The quote you mention is made by Rudy, not me, in his previous post, #14.

Good work as always,
Howard Wolf
hblakewolf@comcast.net

[kingjammy24]

Rudy,

No one is saying it is a photo match we were just saying that refutes Howard's statement - " at no time, in my memory, during any year in the 90s and into 2000+, did the jays ever wear standard block number stickers like those seen on the AMI helmet" Thre a ton of issues with this helmet and I wouln't touch it myself and don't even thibk it should be auctioned Hopefully we'll here back from Juan on this as it is his COA and name attached to it right now and if I were him, I would ask it be pulled...

Regards,
Dave

dave o'brien

i know you're not saying it's a photo match. you're saying it's a style match and what i'm saying is that it isn't. the statement you attributed to howard above was made by myself and i stand by it. the stickers in the photo you're referring to are the old, pre-97 font. the photo is perfectly correct as i've seen dozens from 1998 showing the jays using their old, pre-97 stickers. as i said, i imagine they had boxes full of those helmet stickers and were just using them up.

the fact that canseco gave it to juan makes this thing a real mystery. if it was an uber-temporary helmet meant only to sustain canseco for a couple of games while they procured a proper one, then why even bother putting numbers on the back? like jose would have to know that of all of the improper pre-1997 helmets being worn by the jays in 1998, that one was his? and when they went to label it, they used improper stickers as well?

dave, you're BFFs with victor. any insight into why he's not pulled it so far? is he letting it ride entirely on the provenance?

rudy.

[CollectGU]

Howard, sorry about that. Rudy, I honestly don't know and won't speculate. I would suggest that you pick up the phone and call the toll free number tomorrow and speak directly with them to get an answer. Have you e-mailed your buddy Juan to get an update on his research into this?

[kingjammy24]

by the way, here's how the font for the number 4 should look..this is a pre-97 font and the stickers the jays wore on their 1998 helmets were exact reproductions:

http://img145.imageshack.us/img145/5373/batel3.jpg

rudy.

[kingjammy24]

helmet's still up. 2 bids. juan are you going to let this thing sell?

rudy.

[GrndSlm]

Ive informed AMI about some of our concerns but its not up to me to pull this item. I will follow up tomorrow.

thanks
Juan

[kingjammy24]

helmet has been removed from auction.

rudy.

[whatupyos]

Conrats and awesome work to all who helped get this item taken down!!