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byergo
03-30-2006, 11:43 AM
Who is on YOUR blacklist of uncollectible steroid players? Wouldn't touch 'em with a 10 foot pole...

Mine:

Sosa (corked bat to boot, he's a completely worthless common)
McGwire
Canseco
Pudge
Bonds
Palimeiro
Scheffield
Bagwell
Giambi

suave1477
03-30-2006, 11:48 AM
Byergo I noticed on your list is Sheffield I disagree with you on that and I dont know any of the history on pudge taking roids.

As far as I know with Sheff, he has only been accused by his cousin Bonds and that was becuz the 2 of them got into a heated argument a few years ago and Sheff wont speak to him anymore so Bonds retaliated by putting Sheffs name into it.

As far as media portraying Sheff to be not one of the nicest guys, i dont think that puts him in a category of a roid user.

trsent
03-30-2006, 11:55 AM
My list:

The Governor Arnold
The Champion Hogan
The Chairman McMahon (See his picture on Muscle & Fitness Magazine?)
The Father, Son and Ghost
Santa Clause
The Easter Bunny
That Groundhog
Rosanne

That is my list, who makes you guys judge and jury to list these guys without definite proof?

Did Barry Bonds abuse some substance? Maybe, but he hasn't been convicted of it yet. Did OJ do it? A jury of our peers in criminial court said "not guilty".

Oh yeah, we are better than them, we can look, call them guilty and then hang them in the center of town as if we were in medieval times.

Kid4hof03
03-30-2006, 12:06 PM
My understanding is that Sheffield admitted to the grand jury of "unknowingly" using steroids.

SHeff has to be on the list, the thing about him is that he wasn't that collectible before. His Yankee items carry premium because Yankee collectors will pay for it, check out his items from other teams, very cheap.

suave1477
03-30-2006, 12:29 PM
Ok i wasnt aware that he 50/50 admitted to unknowingly he took roids. As far as the value of his items, then and now., but that goes for any player who joins the Yankees. Any player who joins the Yankees there items go up to premium values.

Just to say you were a yankee once makes you an official baseball player, go to california tell some girl you a bat boy from the New York Yankees and chances are your getting some that night lol lol lol:D

All in all Sheffs stats have done better with the Yankees if memory serves me correct in 04 he had something like 123 rbi's 36 home runs - hes putting up some of the best numbers of his career.

BULBUS
03-30-2006, 12:35 PM
We're not convicting these guys, we're just not collecting their memorabilia because it is obviuos that they cheated and their accomplishments can't be taken seriously. I have already sold Bonds and Giambi items from my collection, and I would never buy anything of the guys on byergo's list. I do have a Sheff bat (had it before all this steroid hype) that I'll probably keep. I like Sheff, and his alleged steroid use isnt as obvious as say Bonds and Giambi. I do like Giambi too (glad to see he has recovered from his steroid withdrawals), but I wont buy anthing of his again. I cant think of anyone to add to that list right now.

astros*bats
03-30-2006, 01:08 PM
Bagwell is on your list, you gotta be kidding me. Well if anyone has any Bagwell items they want to unload cause he made this list, I will more than happy to take them off your hands.

-AJ

kellsox
03-30-2006, 01:28 PM
sheff also admitted "not knowingly" taking steroids in an article in SI a year or two ago. It was an article about he and Bonds' friendship(or lack of)

hblakewolf
03-30-2006, 01:30 PM
Being associated with sports dentistry for the last 10 years, I met a dentist at the National Sports Dentistry Show three years ago who liven in Puerto Rico. He has worked on many of the local baseball stars, including Pudge. He told me that Pudge is one of the greatest abusers of steroids, and he expects him to have some serious, serious health issues over the next few years.

FYI


Howard Wolf
hblakewolf@patmedia.net

Nathan
03-30-2006, 01:31 PM
Since Todd Helton was somehow accused last year, can I have any of his stuff at a substantial discount?

In all seriousness, no one's convicting anyone here. It's a legitimate question and a legitimate response. I know plenty of people who refuse to collect certain players due to how they are in dealing with fans, among other reasons.

suave1477
03-30-2006, 02:14 PM
WELL IF THATS THE CASE!!!

If anyone has any Darryl Strawberry stuff send it this way!!

Darryl beats them all.

These are all things he did
Cocaine
Alcohol
Weed
Wife beating
Wife cheating
Tax Evaison
Violating probation
Having sex with women in rehab
Filing false police reports
Sniffing glue*
Turpentine*
Fertilizer*
Beanie babies*

*items with the star im kidding about.

Remember guys whatever you have of his, sell it to me since hes the worse of the worse and ill even pay the LOWEST dollar to you lol lol:D

seven4five20
03-30-2006, 02:52 PM
The Hulkster never used steroids!!! C'mon fellow Hulkimaniacs, back me up on this one!!!

trsent
03-30-2006, 03:11 PM
The Hulkster never used steroids!!! C'mon fellow Hulkimaniacs, back me up on this one!!!

"Oh yeah Brother!"

MVP
03-30-2006, 03:26 PM
Here is my list:

bonds
canseco
sheffield
mcgwire
giambi
palmeiro
klesko
caminiti
bagwell
brady anderson
bret boone
jose cruz jr.
pudge rodriguez
juan gonzalez
bobby estalella
miguel tejada
dykstra

-Henry

trsent
03-30-2006, 03:42 PM
How can you folks make lists?

Who on those lists can you know for sure are guilty.

It sort of reminds me of a Jr. Senator from Wisconsin who once labeled many members of the public as members of the communist party.

Sorry folks, you should be ASHAMED of yourselves.

Swoboda4
03-30-2006, 04:47 PM
ROGER CLEMENS. In 1996 he leaves Boston and WE ALL thought that, as is,we've seen a Hall of Fame career and it's winding down. So what happens?- he gets a well deserved payday and ends a distinguished career in Toronto? Ahhh-no. He baloons to 220 lbs and wins four additional Cy Yound awards. When he was in his prime he managed to win only one. As in the case of Bonds a picture(s)worth a thousand words.
http://pro.corbis.com/images/U86280004-5.jpg?size=67&uid={965cc4d3-01aa-44f3-a34c-c7649e06135e}http://pro.corbis.com/images/42-16111305.jpg?size=67&uid={802fea5a-3915-4d60-a207-5177d53fee92}

trsent
03-30-2006, 04:53 PM
As in the case of Bonds a picture(s)worth a thousand words.


So your idea of a trial is to look at before and after pictures?

When will the users of this forum stop with the assumptions. Even ESPN has been reporting today that Bud Selig is investigating "ALLEGED" Steroid use.

Nothing is proven, unless you folks are all Joseph McCarthy wanna-bes.

suave1477
03-30-2006, 04:54 PM
Swoboda whaaaaaaaaaaat thats crazy clemens? oh come on he just ate too much McDonalds lol lol:D

But I did hear McDonalds injects there meat with steroids lol:D

trsent
03-30-2006, 05:01 PM
He is right, Roger became bigger and won Cy Young Awards.

He should be castrated already!

No trial, just the members of this forum determining who did and who didn't abuse drugs.

Is Ferguson Jenkins still in the Hall of Fame? He should have been executed by now for using drugs.

skipcareyisfat
03-30-2006, 05:16 PM
Give me a break. What an absolute joke to say that anyone should be "ashamed" of talking about a bunch of guys that they don't want to collect. Did anyone say, "none of these guys should ever work again or pass some sort of government security screen?" NO. Is this so-called witch-hunt being led by one or two guys? NO.

The fact is, Joel, that a lot of guys DID use steroids, whether you choose to believe it or not. I'll take the words of Grace, Gwynn, Caminiti, Canseco (who, by the way, IS the reason we're even talking about this) and whoever else has spoken up about what THEY SAW. Barry Bonds says he didn't do it. Who cares? Look at the EVIDENCE. Do you seriously expect every person who committed a crime or did something stupid to stand up and say "I did it?" We live in a country that encourages people to shirk personal responsibility and it's pathetic.

It's estimated that 70% of guys juiced. If you want to ignore that or the fact the steroids were at least rampant for a dozen or so years, take your place right behind MLB. They'd love the company.

The whole "prove it" theory is bull, in this way, also: With all the talk on this forum about fake jerseys, autographs, etc., according to your logic, in order for something to really be a fake, we'd have a either get a confession from the guy who faked it or we'd have to see it being faked in person. Or perhaps we'd all feel more comfortable if there was a jury conviction and a respective LOA for the fake item was issued for it. And save the response about how the team's jerseys usually look or how the guy usually signs his name. There are exceptions to everything. Or do we need proof?

By the way, I will no longer collect items from:
Macho Man Savage
Eddie the Eagle
Smokey the Bear
or Johnny Lemaster

-Jason

Swoboda4
03-30-2006, 05:34 PM
"Alleged" steroid use? Of course steroids have been used. Grand Jury testimony was unfortunately leaked(which is a crime)and we now know it's not just an assumption. Today's overdue announcement by Bud Selig is in the category of "not letting it happen again"and to "publicly REVEAL USERS" endquote. What is "it" it is steroids and performance enhancers. Selig was asked if a celebration is planned for Bonds eclipsing Ruth and Aaron records. His response was "we'll address that later" not "yes". This is unfortunately a reality not a guess or assumption. And what makes anyone believe only hitters use steroids.pitchers are the exact players that need muscle recovery more than any other player. As far as Clemens is concerned I never seen anyone work out so hard and run that much and not loose weight. He doesn't over eat and his health conscious(?).
No I didn't personally check his blood for substances. But the question was posed,who would you avoid collecting due to the steroids situation and that is the answer that always came to my mind since he left Boston. The other player that bothers me is a favorite of mine,Dykstra. Even major league players have said this now openly on ESPN radio. Dykstra was a skinny kid that in Phila. looked like he got stung by a million bees.He's humongous,ready to explode. Met Pitcher Grant Roberts was suspended by MLB for USING STEROIDS. Twins pitcher Juan Rincon suspended for using steroids,on and on. Ken Caminitti, dead-first to admit using steroids,albeit after retirement. It's not harmless,it alters baseball(Piazza was second in the MVP voting when Caminitti won-a year he admitted using performance enhancers. I'm sorry for the rant,and I like all the members responding to this thread but this thing is killing our sport.
PS:I wote columnist Phil Mushnick about all this and I ended it with,"..if Aaron used steroids how many more home runs would he have hit? Mushnicks answer was,"It not a question of how many more home runs but how long would he have been dead ? ''

Swoboda4
03-30-2006, 05:43 PM
Jenkins drug use did not help him win baseball games. It hindered, not enhanced ,his performance. Also AM1000 in Chicago is reporting that 2 all star players(one AL East and one NL Central)have tested postive for steroids and names will soon be revealed. Jim Rome reports Clemens is thought to be the National League player but will not be named(like Grant Roberts,Rincon)pending an appeal.

STLWSB
03-30-2006, 05:50 PM
A list of known users,
1. Palmeiro caught last year by MLB testing
2. Canseco admitted to using in his book
3. Bonds named in book Game of Shadow, you people who dont believe he was a user need to read this book.
4. Cameniti admitted to SI
5. Sheffield admitted to SI that he unknowingly used
6. Giambi Jason admitted in Grand Jury testimony
7. Giambi Jeromy, admitted to I believe a Kansas City newspaper
8. McGwire admitted using Andro, which is now a banned performance enhancer and illegal.
There were also 11 other Major leagures caught in last years testing, and many more minor leagures.

Canseco named in his book
1. Pudge
2. Palmeiro
3. Juan Gonzalez
4. McGwire
5. Tejada, although Canseco did not directly accuse Tejada in the book, he did innsinuate use.

Just because some of the players like Sosa have not been caught and convited in a US court of law does not mean they have not used steriods. If you have to be told something by our Goverment to make up your mind on something, you have a big problem. Why dont you invite OJ Simpson over for a nice steak dinner, if you are so trusting of him. You probably also backed Pete Rose for a decade when he denied gambling on baseball.

cohibasmoker
03-30-2006, 05:50 PM
I see the day when MLB gets hit with a wrongful death suit. A widow of a baseball player who died from steroid use will file it. His/her claim will be, baseball knew about the problem but did nothing to correct it. Of course in his/her claim, they would have to prove there was a direct correlation between steroid use and the death. I donít think it would be too difficult to prove baseballís inaction.

Yankwood
03-30-2006, 05:57 PM
I'm not sure if she used steroids or not, but I can't think of anyone I dislike more than Rosie O'Donnell. She really looked huge in "League of Their Own".

Swoboda4
03-30-2006, 06:07 PM
She looks the same to me.
http://www.augustachronicle.com/images/headlines/070404/27168_512.jpghttp://redbirdnation.blogspot.com/kruk229x360.jpg

Nathan
03-30-2006, 06:15 PM
Mr. Alpert,

Funny that you should bring up Joe McCarthy. As any student of history can tell you, McCarthy had a lot more right than he did wrong. Read up on the Venona Project sometime if you'd like to see how deep communist infiltration of the US government ran; it included (besides some such as Alger Hiss and the Rosenbergs) higher-ups in the Treasury Department, Justice Department, military, assistants to FDR, members of the War Production Board, and a few from the Manhattan Project (besides Klaus Fuchs, Robert and Katherine Oppenheimer also had NKVD files).

seven4five20
03-30-2006, 06:28 PM
Dudes, Clemens was just saying his prayers and taking his vitamins, brother!!

Seriously though, I go to atleast 20 BoSox games a year. He used to be my favorite before "wanting to be closer to home", then leaving the country (we all know about the real beef, Dan Duquette). He was getting real fat, not beefy, fat, like El Guapo fat, in 95/96. I think he mearly just trained hard when he got that payday, knowing he had to ressurect his career a little, and prove himself, and turned that physical fatness into some lean mass.

trsent
03-30-2006, 08:20 PM
As usual, the purists on GUU feel they are right and won't list to the other side.

You folks should get your heads out of the sand, because you have labeled accusations on players who there is no proof, just your opinion.

And to whoever defended Joe McCarthy, that is just too funny.

Yankwood
03-30-2006, 08:36 PM
As usual, the purists on GUU feel they are right and won't list to the other side.

You folks should get your heads out of the sand, because you have labeled accusations on players who there is no proof, just your opinion.

And to whoever defended Joe McCarthy, that is just too funny.Why?

sylbry
03-30-2006, 08:36 PM
Settle down Joel. I thought this thread was started asking people who they won't collect. I think people are free to spend their money as they wish and if they don't feel like purchasing items related to someone they believe might have used steriod it is their decision to make. You do not have to agree with THEIR opinions on THEIR collections.

trsent
03-30-2006, 08:44 PM
I have no problem with who you won't collect, but listing names because they may have used a drug that was not illegal by the rules of their sport is like creating a blacklist without any proof - Just speculation.

If you came on this board and said, "What dealers will you not buy from because they had a questionable item?" It would be just as tacky.

I love the guy who said it is alright that Fergie Jenkins smoked weed because that didn't influence his performance.

Let me see, if apples make you hit home runs and pears make you pitch faster, then it is ok for a hitter to eat pears?

I confuse myself.

Nathan
03-30-2006, 09:37 PM
Joel,

How is that funny? I presented evidence that Joe McCarthy was right more than he was wrong. That's solid, conclusive, slam-dunk evidence, skimmed from both American and Russian sources. The idea that there were NOT communists in high places during the McCarthy era is not only completely erroneous, but absolutely ludicrous to suggest. That's not an opinion, that's absolute fact.

Only someone with their head in the sand would be able to leaf through thousands of pages of evidence and not say "Wow, that's some really damning stuff there".

Don't forget that McCarthy himself was named one of the most respected men in the country in 1954, and that he had the blessing of J Edgar Hoover to conduct investigations. You're going up against over 50 years of investigations, along with mounds of declassified information, to try to sit here and tell me and the rest of the planet that McCarthy was wrong. And THAT would be "too funny" if it wasn't just plain sad.

trsent
03-30-2006, 09:56 PM
Sorry, 50 plus years later history shows that Joe McCarthy was out of line pointing an innocent people and thus ruining their lives with his allegations. Sure, there may have been bad apples, but he picked on the innocent just as we have here because the people we are accusing of juicing have had nothing proved against them, yet.

suave1477
03-31-2006, 12:49 AM
I just want to point out that Swoboda is funny!!!!!

At the picture matching of Rosie ODonnel and I beleive that is Darren Daulton I laughed my butt off for about 10 minutes thunbs up Swoboda!!!

2000mvpfan
03-31-2006, 02:29 AM
Darren Daulton????C'mon Suave,that's "The Krukster"-John Kruk!!



....but Rosie still looks like him.

Swoboda4
03-31-2006, 06:38 AM
There are taverns that won't allow religion or politics to be discussed. I think I know why now. Anyway,we get the idea(from both sides)about this,both sides have their points. Let's get back to discussing items.
http://cache.corbis.com/CorbisImage/170/15/60/01/15600197/42-15600197.jpg (http://javascript<b></b>:RampGroup_PopUp('/popup/Enlargement.aspx?mediauids={a4c06fd2-68cc-49d6-a893-dff1499b311d}|{ffffffff-ffff-ffff-ffff-ffffffffffff}&qsPageNo=1&fdid=&Area=Search&TotalCount=44&CurrentPos=10&WinID={a4c06fd2-68cc-49d6-a893-dff1499b311d}','4215600197',650,780))

allstarsplus
03-31-2006, 07:45 AM
Andro was sold in health food stores and vitamin stores as muscle builder supplements for decades. Studies show limited muscle value but that didn't stop people from taking it because of all the claims of building muscle mass. It wasn't illegal to buy it over the counter until the FDA ruled on it in 2004 and lumped it into the Anabolic Steroid Control Act.

Here is the warning direct from the FDA website:


The Anabolic Steroid Control Act, signed into law in October 2004, classifies androstenedione and 17 other steroids as controlled substances. As of January 2005, these substances may not be sold without prescription.

The U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA) has announced a crackdown on products containing androstenedione, commonly known as "andro." The products are marketed over the counter as dietary supplements that enhance athletic performance. In the body, androstenedione is converted into testosterone and estrogen.

While ads claim that andro-containing supplements promote increased muscle mass, research has not shown this to be the case. In addition, studies have shown side effects and potential long-term risks; androstenedione poses the same kinds of health risks as anabolic steroids. Given the lack of proven benefits and the risks, the FDA is requesting companies to stop distributing dietary supplements containing androstenedione. The FDA is also encouraging Congress to consider legislation to classify these products as a controlled substance.

Potential Long-Term Risks

For men--shrinkage of testicles, growth of breast tissue, impotence
For women--male pattern baldness, increased facial hair, increased risk for breast cancer and endometrial cancer, blood clots
For youth--acne, early start of puberty, stunted growth

Nathan
03-31-2006, 09:52 AM
swoboda,

I'm actually the reason for some of that. I was minding my own business one night and Mr. Big League Hot Shot started trying to tell me that Pitt the Elder was England's greater Prime Minister. Everyone KNOWS it was Lord Palmerston.;)

suave1477
03-31-2006, 10:06 AM
2000mvpfan whoops your right my mistake but then again im not a phillies fan so after a while they all start to look a like including Rosie lol lol:D

trsent
03-31-2006, 10:52 AM
Two interesting articles up on Yahoo! Sports this morning.

http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news;_ylt=AkKTRQNdKWpW4NKGaOdqCIY5nYcB?slug=ap-steroids-giantsreaction&prov=ap&type=lgns

I love Steve Finley's quote:

"If there was not a rule, how can you go back and punish people for that?" said the 41-year-old Finley, entering his 18th major league season.

The second article basically makes it clear, Bud Selig cannot win and will have to resign after this whole ordeal.

http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news;_ylt=Aox1hwWCdleY7K7.uCR_N6M5nYcB?slug=jp-steroids033006&prov=yhoo&type=lgns

sylbry
03-31-2006, 12:22 PM
If this investigation leads to Selig's resignation (which I kind of doubt) I would call it a success.

Yankwood
03-31-2006, 01:40 PM
I'm still having problems with this theory that it was not against the rules of baseball. IT WAS ILLEGAL ! ! !

trsent
03-31-2006, 02:03 PM
I'm still having problems with this theory that it was not against the rules of baseball. IT WAS ILLEGAL ! ! !

It was illegal in the court system of the US and A.

It was not illegal in the by-laws of ML and B.

Why? Because they enjoyed saving the game after a strike almost destroyed the game. I canceled my season tickets after they canceled that season.

BULBUS
03-31-2006, 02:32 PM
I'm with yankwood. How can you justify steroid use in baseball on the premise that it is not stated in the mlb handbook that you are not allowed to use them? Since when did MLB become its own country with its own constitution? i believe the laws that govern this country apply to mlb as well :confused:

Yankwood
03-31-2006, 02:43 PM
I'm with yankwood. How can you justify steroid use in baseball on the premise that it is not stated in the mlb handbook that you are not allowed to use them? Since when did MLB become its own country with its own constitution? i believe the laws that govern this country apply to mlb as well :confused:Exactly, those who make the argument about it not being against baseball rules-well-that is an awfully weak argument. If it's against the law, why should baseball have to second that? I just don't understand the argument other than to make excuses for the players who were breaking the law--------and thereby DOING WRONG-baseball rule or not! ! ! But you know what, we can go on like this forever. The fact remains that these records of recent years are very, very tarnished in the public's eye and rightfully always will be.

trsent
03-31-2006, 05:01 PM
Point Blank:

Baseball turned their back on any use or abuse for years. Just as they have ignored use of other drugs, they ignored the use of this drug. So it made a guy hit more home runs? It brought fans back when baseball was catching down to hockey in popularity.

It is illegal to smoke marijuana, but it still takes place all over this country and people don't have asterisks next to their names because of it. A drug is a drug, you cannot tell me if someone uses cocaine they can go to rehab and be forgiven but if they take a performance enhancement drug then they have an asterisk next to their stats?

Baseball didn't mind, they needed the sport to pick back up. Too little, too late in my book.

You can be a purist all you want, stats are stats in my book and they will remain that way because baseball (Bud) let it happen for so long.

Yankwood
03-31-2006, 05:45 PM
Point Blank:

Baseball turned their back on any use or abuse for years. Just as they have ignored use of other drugs, they ignored the use of this drug. So it made a guy hit more home runs? It brought fans back when baseball was catching down to hockey in popularity.

It is illegal to smoke marijuana, but it still takes place all over this country and people don't have asterisks next to their names because of it. A drug is a drug, you cannot tell me if someone uses cocaine they can go to rehab and be forgiven but if they take a performance enhancement drug then they have an asterisk next to their stats?

Baseball didn't mind, they needed the sport to pick back up. Too little, too late in my book.

You can be a purist all you want, stats are stats in my book and they will remain that way because baseball (Bud) let it happen for so long.Marijuana use never aided anyone in hitting homeruns so the comparison to steroid use is very weak. Apples and oranges.

trsent
03-31-2006, 05:49 PM
Sorry, you are picking out drugs and saying that some illegal drugs in the USA are ok because it may not help performance, while others may help performance so we should destroy all your records.

No good, a drug is a drug in this case. It is common sense. How do you not know that Fergie Jenkins didn't throw faster because he was stoned the night before?

The continual argument that if the laws of the land make it illegal so therefore...Fine, then suspend every player who has used any illegal drug - No just one that may make your body stronger.

THEY ARE ALL ILLEGAL DRUGS - RIGHT?

Funny thing is Steroids were not illegal in baseball rules, but cocaine was during this era.

byergo
03-31-2006, 08:51 PM
Steriods are a major performance enhancer. Other drugs: weed, coke, alcohol, etc... degrade, not enhance your performance. The difference is crystal clear.

Yankwood
03-31-2006, 10:07 PM
Steriods are a major performance enhancer. Other drugs: weed, coke, alcohol, etc... degrade, not enhance your performance. The difference is crystal clear.We can all see this plain as day. But you're wasting your time. He won't listen.

trsent
04-01-2006, 02:29 AM
I don't care if they enhance your performance.

Baseball had a rule that if you got caught snorting cocaine, you were suspended.

They didn't have a rule that if you used steroids you were in any trouble with them at all.

All I am saying is 1. They didn't break the rules of baseball and 2. Don't tell me because they used a drug that made them stronger that they should be hung on a cross.

Drugs are drugs, you don't know if smoking pot maybe makes your eyesight better so you see the pitch coming clearer. People smoke week for eye issues, right?

When Keith Hernandez hit .390 - He said he was on cocaine and the baseball looked like a beach ball coming to the plate.

Get over you obsessions, drugs are drugs and no one will have any permanent record altering because of the use of steroids - Except in your heart. (By the way, this is fine to have your own personal record holders in your heart.)

In the heart of Tim McGraw's late father:

Ten million years from now, when the sun burns out and the Earth is just a frozen ice ball hurtling through space, nobody's going to care whether or not you consider Roger Maris or Barry Bonds the all-time single season home run champion.

Then again, who has proved that Barry Bonds abused steroids? It is still all "allegations".

Fraudfinder!!
04-01-2006, 08:44 AM
Then again, who has proved that Barry Bonds abused steroids? It is still all "allegations".
__________________
Joel Alpert



OK Joel is right. He has been on record saying if someone is not convicted etc. then they must be presumed innocent. "Innocent until proven guilty". The following people were never "convicted" in a court of law therefore my opinion of them must have been wrong all these years and I apologize to Joel for having these terrible opinions. My head is out of the sand! I am free! Shame on me! I repent!

1. Adolf Hilter never commited genocide. He died prior to his trial.
2. George Wallace was never a racist.
3. JFK was never a womenizer
4. John Belushi was not a druggie. After all, someone could have snuck in while he slept and injected him with all those drugs that caused his death.
5. MLK never cheated on his wife, (only had FBI wiretaps,) he was never prosecuted for Adultery,thus it never happened.
6. 9/11 hijackers should be termed as "alledged hijackers." No one knows for sure what happened on those planes. Pure conjecture.
7. O.J Simpson never killed his ex-wife or Ron Goldman. Err, wait he was acquitted wasn't he!! (Although a civil jury later determined that he killed both these people, good enough for me).

I could go on and on, how about getting back to some great game used discussions......

allstarsplus
04-01-2006, 09:59 AM
http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/eticket/format/memos20051109?memo=1991&num=1

1991 MLB memo. MLB stated that steroids are against the rules (page 2) but as you read on that they weren't included in the drug testing program.

Great reading if you haven't seen this before.

Get those astericks out!

sylbry
04-01-2006, 10:45 AM
Then again, who has proved that Barry Bonds abused steroids? It is still all "allegations".
__________________
Joel Alpert



OK Joel is right. He has been on record saying if someone is not convicted etc. then they must be presumed innocent. "Innocent until proven guilty". The following people were never "convicted" in a court of law therefore my opinion of them must have been wrong all these years and I apologize to Joel for having these terrible opinions. My head is out of the sand! I am free! Shame on me! I repent!

1. Adolf Hilter never commited genocide. He died prior to his trial.
2. George Wallace was never a racist.
3. JFK was never a womenizer
4. John Belushi was not a druggie. After all, someone could have snuck in while he slept and injected him with all those drugs that caused his death.
5. MLK never cheated on his wife, (only had FBI wiretaps,) he was never prosecuted for Adultery,thus it never happened.
6. 9/11 hijackers should be termed as "alledged hijackers." No one knows for sure what happened on those planes. Pure conjecture.
7. O.J Simpson never killed his ex-wife or Ron Goldman. Err, wait he was acquitted wasn't he!! (Although a civil jury later determined that he killed both these people, good enough for me).

I could go on and on, how about getting back to some great game used discussions......

Well said!

sylbry
04-01-2006, 10:56 AM
http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/eticket/format/memos20051109?memo=1991&num=1

1991 MLB memo. MLB stated that steroids are against the rules (page 2) but as you read on that they weren't included in the drug testing program.

Great reading if you haven't seen this before.

Get those astericks out!

If it wasn't against the rules then why did they sneak around to do their PEDs? Why did they have to buy them from shady people? Afterall, if it was ok and accepted then you should be able to buy and use your drugs out in the open. The answer is they knew it was wrong and didn't want to get caught.

Also, if it wasn't wrong then why are players being so defensive about steriod use pre 2003? Couldn't they just say "Bud said it was ok." Afterall, Bud isn't going to punish them. Because if he did he would have to admit he was a failure and that won't happen anytime soon.

trsent
04-01-2006, 12:00 PM
My head is out of the sand! I am free! Shame on me! I repent!

1. XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
2. George Wallace was never a racist.
3. JFK was never a womenizer
4. John Belushi was not a druggie. After all, someone could have snuck in while he slept and injected him with all those drugs that caused his death.
5. MLK never cheated on his wife, (only had FBI wiretaps,) he was never prosecuted for Adultery,thus it never happened.
6. 9/11 hijackers should be termed as "alledged hijackers." No one knows for sure what happened on those planes. Pure conjecture.
7. O.J Simpson never killed his ex-wife or Ron Goldman. Err, wait he was acquitted wasn't he!! (Although a civil jury later determined that he killed both these people, good enough for me).

Sir, you have some balls - Putting Adolf Hitler into a discussion about people abusing steroids. You need serious help. GET A LIFE AND THANKS FOR MAKING A DISCUSSION ABOUT SOMETHING SO SHALLOW THAT YOU HAVE TO REMIND ME OF HISTORY OF KILLING MILLIONS OF INNOCENTS, MANY JEWISH, BECAUSE YOU WANT TO MAKE A POINT THAT YOUR PASTIME WAS ABUSED BY A DRUG.

I had respect for your work on this forum until that comment.

You should be ashamed of yourself for that comparison and I would like to ask the moderator to please remove that comment and anywhere it is copied because it is out of line that you have put this forum into a class of comparing someone who injects drugs into their own body and someone who never stood trial for the murder of millions of presumably innocent civilians because of their beliefs and then allegedly committed suicide before being found to stand trial.

Then again, you have the proof that the alleged baseball players took steroids because two books have published that they have?

I doubt these players are innocent, but I have stated why I will support them in the past though I do not approve of their abuse due to baseball allowing this abuse until outside pressure caused them to change their rules. Also being a recovering alcoholic (17 years) I understand how drug use is addictive and maybe help should have been offered somewhere along the way.

I have a theory, "Opinions are like ass-holes, everyone is one". I have mine, you have yours, we can debate until you make a comparison that makes this whole forum go down in taste.

trsent
04-01-2006, 12:11 PM
7. O.J Simpson never killed his ex-wife or Ron Goldman. Err, wait he was acquitted wasn't he!! (Although a civil jury later determined that he killed both these people, good enough for me).

I did have to separately comment on this one.

My attorney believed from day one that OJ was innocent. I don't know if he is or not. I have my own life to worry about, but I do find some things interesting in this discussion.

First, it is believed by many that the police planted evidence hoping to slam-dunk their case. If this was true (yes, purely allegations) then prosecutors took a winning case, created doubt and got a guilty man off a double-murder charge.

Now, a jury of our peers in criminal court found the man "not guilty" and that is what we have to live with for the rest of time. I hope he didn't do it because it is sad that if he did a man who should be in jail for life is golfing.

As for civil court, the rules of civil court say they need a burden of proof, meaning they need to feel more guilty than innocent feelings. Our criminal court you are to have no doubt. In other words, civil court basically states you may be guilty but we felt you were more guilty than innocent.

You can personally live by your own convictions, but here in The US and A we have a set of laws that we choose to agree with so that we can have a free country. I am glad you are not setting the rules with your views on the situation we have discussed about a man who criminal court found not guilty.

Fraudfinder!!
04-01-2006, 02:31 PM
Then again, you have the proof that the alleged baseball players took steroids because two books have published that they have?


Joel, Please show me where I ever said anything about any player taking steriods. I have NEVER made any such comment.

I apoligize if I offended you about my comment about Hxxxxx. I stand by my comparision however. I just showed how ridiculous I find your stance on this whole innocent untill proven guilty. You certainly have an opinion of what that man did even though he never stood trial. You can't pick and choose Joel. I was merely making a point. I do not need "help" and have a great life, thanks. I thank God people with your mindset are not running things in this great country.

"As for civil court, the rules of civil court say they need a burden of proof, meaning they need to feel more guilty than innocent feelings. Our criminal court you are to have no doubt. In other words, civil court basically states you may be guilty but we felt you were more guilty than innocent."

Oh really Joel. Where did you get your law degree? "No doubt" in criminal cases? Simply not true Joel. Have you ever heard the term reasonable doubt?

"My attorney believed from day one that OJ was innocent"

Joel, time for a new attorney!

Joel if I am ever in Vegas I would love to hook up with you and see your collection. I think you would even like me. No hard feelings.

trsent
04-01-2006, 02:42 PM
Funny, I am the guy at the poker table that everyone loves. I am entertaining and people generally enjoy my antics. Now, the problem is I am relocating to Chicago next week so Las Vegas will not be my home anymore.

I will be back here a few times a year, but I need to sleep again.

Oh yeah, I still disagree with you. I don't know who used drugs and I do not compare drugs, but I know even baseball's investigations uses the term "allegations" because they know nothing has been proved. On this forum we are going to blacklist players based on allegations only and compare possible innocence of Barry Bonds to possible innocence of Adolph Hitler? That is insane.

trsent
04-01-2006, 02:44 PM
"My attorney believed from day one that OJ was innocent"

Joel, time for a new attorney!


By the way, my attorney is a genius, he may be right - A jury of your peers found the man "not guilty".

(I love using that terminology, it always gets under the skin of anyone who believes OJ is guilty.)

martindl
04-01-2006, 03:29 PM
How can you folks make lists?

Who on those lists can you know for sure are guilty.

It sort of reminds me of a Jr. Senator from Wisconsin who once labeled many members of the public as members of the communist party.

Sorry folks, you should be ASHAMED of yourselves.

I don't understand why should people be ashamed of themselves? As collectors we've all got our reasons for why we will or will not collect a certain player. I don't know where theres a rule that states that i'm wrong for collecting someone who has been found guilty of something any more than theres a rule that says i'm right for collecting someone who has never been found guilty of anything. I've got my own criteria for deciding who is on my list - thats why this is America. My standards might not be your standards, but if they are different I'm now supposed to be ashamed. Not.

BTW - I won't collect anything from Chipper Jones. Why? Because he was a total ass to my kid years ago. On the other hand Greg Vaughn went out of his way to accomodatemy son, and he's been a collecting favorite ever since. See, thats me using my criteria for who i will and will not collect.

Fraudfinder!!
04-01-2006, 04:23 PM
On this forum we are going to blacklist players based on allegations only and compare possible innocence of Barry Bonds to possible innocence of Adolph Hitler? That is insane.

My point exactly!! You just don't get my point Joel. Of Course Hilter is not innocent! Neither is Barry Bonds! There I said it...My point is you do not need some jury to say "GUILTY" to have a opinion on someone! Again I am sorry if I offended you, I meant no harm.

Good look on your move to Chicago, it is a great city.

trsent
04-01-2006, 04:36 PM
What bothers me is Barry Bonds is most-likely guilty of abusing drugs, but I don't believe any punishment is due - MLB blew it when they could have prevented what is now history by ignoring the issue for so long.

Then again, maybe he just worked out more than usual? Even that guy who just got out of jail said the book is full of lies. Time will tell, I guess.

By the way, I previously lived in Chicago for 30 years before the last seven here in Las Vegas. As a well respected member of the forum asked, are you moving because of the family, and I replied, "I am leaving the family to be with my family."

bigtime59
04-02-2006, 11:37 AM
This was never an issue for me, as I couldn't afford these guys before the allegations, and doubt their stuff will come down enough for me after them.
Hitler, while mostly irrelevant to this conversation, brings up an interesting point about juries: while you couldn't get a jury that wouldn't convict him in most of the world, there are countries where you couldn't get a jury that would...
The world can be one effed up place...

Nathan
04-02-2006, 01:28 PM
"Adolph" Hitler is only used two places. One is the Americanized German (the same sort of lingual bastardization that brought us "Joseph" Stalin) and the other is in "Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade", where Hitler also wrote with the wrong hand. Oh well.

Interesting that George Wallace was also brought up; he did, after all, receive the NAACP nod in 1958 and later in his career appointed more black nominees than any other governor. Jesse Jackson even cast a vote for him in 1988. With the exception of one speech (which he admittedly never read before actually giving it) and various symbolic acts that were misconstrued in their context, there's no evidence to suggest that Wallace was a racist man. But I digress...

Looking over this topic, I still wonder how much of an effect steroids would have an the idea of a "collectors' blacklist". There certainly are players who have been blacklisted to a certain extent one way or another, but I can't think of any that would be steroid-based. I don't know many Red Sox fans who would want to have Roger Clemens' stuff in their closet or Eagles fans who seek out Terrell Owens gear. A mental blacklist will always be there for fans for a variety of reasons, but I doubt that accusations of steroid use would dramatically skew things one way or another.

David-A
04-02-2006, 06:06 PM
I wonder what is going to be discovered about Shilling and Clemens? I am still hopefull that big boned players such as Shilling, Clemens, Pujols, Rolen, Ortiz, Manny, etc have all been lifelong steroid free. It seems like this is going to be a very serious investigation and I just hope that many great bigger players such as the 6 I named above, etc never went that route and never go that route. Especially because I collect some of their high $$ items. It seems that collectors are showing with their pockets that they will shell out way less $$ for the players items who likely have used steroids. Does anybody have any thoughts about the players I mentioned. I seems like people are being presumed guilty but a lot of guys are not being mentioned. I assume this is because there are no suspicions whatsoever?

***NOTE FROM MODERATOR- This User Is Currently Banned Forever Under Multiple Accounts For Consistently Breaking The Rules Of The Forum. User Received Many Warnings But Did Not Change Behavior. He Registered Today Under This New Account And Has Again Been Banned***

jboosted92
04-02-2006, 07:28 PM
Cant we all AGREE to DISAGREE :) :) :) :) :) :D

both-teams-played-hard
04-02-2006, 07:54 PM
Other drugs: weed, coke, alcohol, etc... degrade, not enhance your performance.

Dock Ellis may disagree, since he pitched a no-hitter while under the influence of LSD. Should we put an asterisk in the record books?

http://www.sirbacon.org/4membersonly/docellis.htm

both-teams-played-hard
04-02-2006, 08:10 PM
With the exception of one speech (which he admittedly never read before actually giving it) and various symbolic acts that were misconstrued in their context, there's no evidence to suggest that Wallace was a racist man.

Why would you defend George Wallace? He set the American South back about 50 years. He was a small-minded idiot. I hope he is rotting in Hell. I also wish pain and suffering to any of his surviving family members.

Yankwood
04-02-2006, 09:00 PM
Why would you defend George Wallace? He set the American South back about 50 years. He was a small-minded idiot. I hope he is rotting in Hell. I also wish pain and suffering to any of his surviving family members.George Wallace the comedian? Why do you hate him so much?

Nathan
04-02-2006, 10:28 PM
BTPH,

That's a little excessive there. I hardly think that wishing pain and suffering on surviving family is a noble attitude; that's like the lovely folks who refer to (or address) soldiers as "babykillers".

Second, gross distortion of the historical record isn't something that will happen with any regularity as long as I'm around. I presented a few facts, namely that Jesse Jackson did in fact vote for Wallace, the NAACP endorsed him, and that there is no tangible evidence (outside of two incidents that I named) to suggest that Wallace was a racist. Compare that to a former President (Harry Truman) who was a Klansman, as well as a current longtime senator (Robert Byrd); I'm not going to continue on that further since the gentleman in question is a standing senator and I have no interest in turning this into a thread about current events.

Ooh, hang on, they're showing a Ryan Leaf meltdown on TV. As long as we're discussing collector blacklists, where does he fall in even though he (most likely) never used steroids?

both-teams-played-hard
04-03-2006, 12:06 AM
Nathan
You're right. My comments were excessive. I am very emotional about the subject.


Did you guys read the link I posted about Dock Ellis' No-hitter?
http://www.sirbacon.org/4membersonly/docellis.htm

It is more on the topic of performance enhancing drugs...

dranimal
04-03-2006, 08:44 AM
What a great thread. I enjoy all of it which minds us we need conservative and liberal to balance us out. Something can indeed be garnered from both. Also the ability posters have shown to apologize for some comments and making certain one's remarks aren't meant to offend is soooooo refreshing. I've been on board here now my second day and you guys are a balanced, interactive, bright crowd. i will refer many of my baseball sick friends here. Thanks. Jeff
P.S. Editor I admire your sense of what's good for the members to allow this passionate discussion where some might take the lower road and decide for themselves what members enjoy or need to discuss. Kudos.

Yankwood
04-03-2006, 09:57 AM
What a great thread. I enjoy all of it which minds us we need conservative and liberal to balance us out. Something can indeed be garnered from both. Also the ability posters have shown to apologize for some comments and making certain one's remarks aren't meant to offend is soooooo refreshing. I've been on board here now my second day and you guys are a balanced, interactive, bright crowd. i will refer many of my baseball sick friends here. Thanks. Jeff
P.S. Editor I admire your sense of what's good for the members to allow this passionate discussion where some might take the lower road and decide for themselves what members enjoy or need to discuss. Kudos.OH YEAH? F--- You! ! !:eek: :D

Nathan
04-03-2006, 10:13 AM
BTPH,

No hard feelings, I know how it is.

To everyone else,

Shut up! My dad can beat up your dad!:D

suave1477
04-03-2006, 10:37 AM
Well i think Curly is funnier then Moe too bad they all died broke

Yankwood
04-03-2006, 10:41 AM
Well i think Curly is funnier then Moe too bad they all died brokeCount me in as one of the few "Shemp guys"

suave1477
04-03-2006, 10:53 AM
shemp was good but rarely seen

mphcollectibles
04-03-2006, 12:32 PM
To: Whoever posted the Clemens photo I think it is apparent that when you are in your 20's you tend to be skinnier than in your late 30's and 40's. I don't think Clemens is like Bonds a ripped behemoth man beast. I bet just about everyone that posts on this board that is 40 was skinnier when they were in their 20's.

suave1477
04-03-2006, 01:16 PM
mph thats not true when i get into my 40's i plan to be a sexy beast lol lol:D

Nathan
04-04-2006, 12:15 AM
MPH brings up a good point; there are some things that simply are or are not a physical possibility. Is the idea of someone looking like a bodybuilder into their 30s, 40s, or beyond (like Charles Atlas) impossible? Not at all. But the makeup of the human body at age 25 is usually what it will remain until death. Certainly there will be changes in many ways, but the idea of going from someone built like a greyhound or a creampuff to someone who would make Arnold in his prime look svelte is insane.

Basically, the makeup of the body is determined by the various hormones present in the body. They obviously vary from person to person and from male to female, but once they stop being produced in large amounts then the growth benefit stops. This is why men stop growing taller once they hit age 18-21; the amount of growth hormone virtually ceases and testosterone slows dramatically. It's also why women are unable to achieve a naturally "ripped" look; they lack the testosterone amount necessary to have that sort of body makeup (yes, there are certain females who have a testosterone imbalance; interestingly enough, they also are the only females to consistently excel at math and science).

As anyone over age 30 who's tried to diet and get into good shape can tell you, developing muscular definition where there wasn't any before isn't just tough, it's practically impossible. The most effective way to be able to undergo a radical body alteration after age 25-30 is through hormone replacement; since there needs to be one heck of a good reason to do such a thing, most guys who are looking for that kind of physical makeup will do it under the table at the point of a needle. Although men can get bigger as they age, the idea of growing hat sizes is absolutely ludicrous without there being either a serious medical condition or else some shady dealings. This isn't like a 16-year-old kid getting ready for football and packing on 40 pounds of muscle; at that age and with the right diet and workout routine, 40 pounds is nothing.

I've been around gyms for a long time, and will continue for a long while as well. I've seen firsthand the bizarre and unpredictable effects of steroids, HGH, and other performance-enhancers on the human body. It's not the sort of thing that will easily be forgotten, and it's also allowed me to form my own suspicions as to who in MLB uses and who doesn't. Frankly, if MLB was looking to "clean up the game", there's quite a few high-level players who would never be heard from again.

Yankwood
04-04-2006, 09:54 AM
MPH brings up a good point; there are some things that simply are or are not a physical possibility. Is the idea of someone looking like a bodybuilder into their 30s, 40s, or beyond (like Charles Atlas) impossible? Not at all. But the makeup of the human body at age 25 is usually what it will remain until death. Certainly there will be changes in many ways, but the idea of going from someone built like a greyhound or a creampuff to someone who would make Arnold in his prime look svelte is insane.

Basically, the makeup of the body is determined by the various hormones present in the body. They obviously vary from person to person and from male to female, but once they stop being produced in large amounts then the growth benefit stops. This is why men stop growing taller once they hit age 18-21; the amount of growth hormone virtually ceases and testosterone slows dramatically. It's also why women are unable to achieve a naturally "ripped" look; they lack the testosterone amount necessary to have that sort of body makeup (yes, there are certain females who have a testosterone imbalance; interestingly enough, they also are the only females to consistently excel at math and science).

As anyone over age 30 who's tried to diet and get into good shape can tell you, developing muscular definition where there wasn't any before isn't just tough, it's practically impossible. The most effective way to be able to undergo a radical body alteration after age 25-30 is through hormone replacement; since there needs to be one heck of a good reason to do such a thing, most guys who are looking for that kind of physical makeup will do it under the table at the point of a needle. Although men can get bigger as they age, the idea of growing hat sizes is absolutely ludicrous without there being either a serious medical condition or else some shady dealings. This isn't like a 16-year-old kid getting ready for football and packing on 40 pounds of muscle; at that age and with the right diet and workout routine, 40 pounds is nothing.

I've been around gyms for a long time, and will continue for a long while as well. I've seen firsthand the bizarre and unpredictable effects of steroids, HGH, and other performance-enhancers on the human body. It's not the sort of thing that will easily be forgotten, and it's also allowed me to form my own suspicions as to who in MLB uses and who doesn't. Frankly, if MLB was looking to "clean up the game", there's quite a few high-level players who would never be heard from again.I've tried that hormone thing and all I have to show for it are these unsightly breasts, a hairy back and an unquenchable thirst for the ballet.

suave1477
04-04-2006, 10:45 AM
As anyone over age 30 who's tried to diet and get into good shape can tell you, developing muscular definition where there wasn't any before isn't just tough, it's practically impossible. The most effective way to be able to undergo a radical body alteration after age 25-30 is through hormone replacement; since there needs to be one heck of a good reason to do such a thing, most guys who are looking for that kind of physical makeup will do it under the table at the point of a needle. Although men can get bigger as they age, the idea of growing hat sizes is absolutely ludicrous without there being either a serious medical condition or else some shady dealings. This isn't like a 16-year-old kid getting ready for football and packing on 40 pounds of muscle; at that age and with the right diet and workout routine, 40 pounds is nothing.

WOW!!!! Nathan I totally disagree with you on this one do you go to "Average Joe's gym" ( refrence Dodgeball - movie ) the reason i am asking is that is totally absurd. I know plenty of people well into there 30's who started woking out in there 30's and have changed there bodies dramataically from being fat and flabby to lean muscle with out steroids. Stop looking at the women in the gym and you will see if you work out too you can do it lol lol:D

skyking26
04-04-2006, 10:52 AM
Not much you can do about the stats. Let Barry do whatever he does. In the end you let the abusers remain out of the HALL - Denied.

Nathan
04-04-2006, 10:57 AM
Yankwood,

It's okay, there was one guy I referred to as "Mankind". You want to talk about the poster boy for irregular hair patches....there was a thick one that looked like a steel wool pad on the middle 1/3 of his left trapezius, a really strange one coming almost directly out from the external oblique area of the right side, and one the size of a half-dollar on the left side of his belly button. It was like a train wreck....he always worked out with no shirt on, and it was impossible to avert your gaze.

Suave,

No, the one I have in mind is one that's frequented by both world-known powerlifters and DEA agents. These are the hardcore lifters and the sort of crazy mofos who hang around them, practically begging for a chance to mop their sweat off an Olympic bar.

But what you suggest I do would actually have the opposite effect of your assumption. Checking out women in gyms and focusing on that will cause various hormonal reactions, including the increased release of testosterone. I mean, if you're suggesting that I go to a total sausagefest to get that same hormonal reaction.....;)

Besides, I'm not talking about turning a generally doughy body into someone who has the appearance of being in great shape; I'm talking about going from the Pillsbury Doughboy to Magnus ver Magnusson at age 35 (or older).

suave1477
04-04-2006, 11:07 AM
Nathan lol lol Hey I take offense to that so your saying bcuz i look like a Greek God I have been taking steiroids / im just kidding about the Greek God part - i just threw that in for effect lol lol:D