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View Full Version : All Babe Ruth Bat Experts....please Help!



DoctorLoomis
12-11-2008, 04:51 PM
As we speak Vintage is running a game used Ruth bat that weighs 32 oz!!!! Is there any way...at any time....ever...that Ruth used a 32 oz bat????

yanks12025
12-11-2008, 05:09 PM
Mears says that bats can lose acouple of ounces. So this bat could have been around 33-34 ounces back then.

DoctorLoomis
12-11-2008, 05:09 PM
Allow me to slightly modify my OP...did Ruth ever use a 32 oz bat in a MAJOR LEAGUE baseball game?

yanks12025
12-11-2008, 05:13 PM
No

DoctorLoomis
12-11-2008, 05:36 PM
Hey Yanks.....why are people bidding thousands of dollars on that bat when it was never ever used by Ruth?

DoctorLoomis
12-11-2008, 05:41 PM
Isnt Taube supposed to be the man as far as bats are concerned? Also Vince Malta? I see their name is NO WHERE on the LOA for this bat.

yanks12025
12-11-2008, 05:46 PM
Mears does most of the vintage bats. They do alot of research. I think John and Vince are better for bats from the 1950's and up.

Zinn Beck 300 model bats i believe are still professional models, so there is a chance Babe Ruth could have used it. Also for Zinn Beck bats, the records are incomplete, so we dont know for sure. Also if you want a Babe Ruth bat its alot cheaper then his Hillerich & Bradsby game used bat.

encinorick
12-11-2008, 05:52 PM
So a Mears A6 means there's "a chance" the Babe Ruth may have used a 32 oz bat in the Major Leagure Game, right?

yanks12025
12-11-2008, 05:55 PM
So a Mears A6 means there's "a chance" the Babe Ruth may have used a 32 oz bat in the Major Leagure Game, right?

Can you drop it!

Like i said records for Zinn Beck bats are imcomplete.

Also the Mears letter says Professional Model bat, does not say Game Used.

DoctorLoomis
12-11-2008, 05:56 PM
I wouldnt touch that bat period. If you cant afford an H&B that is within the measurements that Babe was KNOWN to use, then let it go.

encinorick
12-11-2008, 06:03 PM
Yeah, but in Vintage's description they say it's "Game Used." So should ignore it, right?

And again, what the heck does a Mears 6 mean if not game used.

b.heagy
12-11-2008, 06:13 PM
Here is the description.

This gorgeous George Herman "Babe" Ruth professional grade ash Zinn Beck 300 pro model bat is traced back to the glory years of Murderer's Row circa late 1920s-early 1930s. With deep factory stampings and a gorgeous finish, it certainly appears to be a bat that the Babe would be proud to call his own. As sought after as Ruthian game bats are in the hobby, this one does not disappoint and would fit nicely in any vintage bat collection.

The Zinn Beck 300 pro model bat measures 32 oz and 34" matching correct manufacturing characteristics. It features a hand turned knob and high grade wood which are professional model characteristics. Although Ruth preferred 35-36 inch bats, 34" is certainly acceptable as Ruth spoke about moving down to 34" bats in different times of his career. And in fact, photographic documentation exists of the Yankees routinely ordering and using Babe Ruth Zinn Beck bats. The optimal significant game use evidence you would expect from a Ruth gamer is highlighted by heavy ball and stitch marks as well as cleat marks across the barrel - another Ruth specific trait. The handle remains fully intact and grain examination shows swelling. Overall this impressive Ruth game representation earns a final authentic quality grade of 6 not to be missed if you've been waiting for a Ruth game bat to call your own.

yanks12025
12-11-2008, 06:14 PM
Contact Dave or Troy over at Mears then. I dont know every answer you want to know.

DoctorLoomis
12-11-2008, 06:16 PM
Bottom line...STAY AWAY FROM IT!

b.heagy
12-11-2008, 06:18 PM
The description never places the bat in Ruth's hands. Noted as a professional model bat that is a Babe Ruth Model. Also noted that there is phtographics evidence of the YANKEES ordering this model. Does anyone have a scan of the LOO?

encinorick
12-11-2008, 06:28 PM
Vintageauthentics:

"Lot 7: Babe Ruth 1920's-Early 1930's Game Used Bat A6"


Seems pretty clear, doesn't it?

DoctorLoomis
12-11-2008, 06:28 PM
On the contrary....second paragraph, fifth sentence....it says "Ruth Gamer".

b.heagy
12-11-2008, 07:01 PM
Vintageauthentics:

"Lot 7: Babe Ruth 1920's-Early 1930's Game Used Bat A6"


Seems pretty clear, doesn't it?


Not really. It's a Babe Ruth model bat that is game used. I read that clearly in the description however, not every buyer may read it the same way. I see both sides of the coin.

b.heagy
12-11-2008, 07:05 PM
On the contrary....second paragraph, fifth sentence....it says "Ruth Gamer".

"The optimal significant game use evidence you would expect from a Ruth gamer is highlighted by heavy ball and stitch marks as well as cleat marks across the barrel - another Ruth specific trait."

Is what is says. Show me where it says Babe Ruth used this bat.

encinorick
12-11-2008, 07:50 PM
Bill: Let me guess, you have one of those subprime loans, right?

Dave mentioned before about "deceptive practices," you should review.
You can't represent something to the general public that's not true or accurate. The courts look at advertisement through the eyes are the everyday consumer, "the reasonable man" with no particular expertise or knowledge about the item. It interpets the "literal meaning" of words.
I could go on, but, I won't bore you.

Good luck with the subprime thing.

b.heagy
12-11-2008, 08:29 PM
Rick,
No need to take a shot at me. Personal attacks not appreciated. I understand your position. I too believe the buyer should know exactly what they are buying. I also strongly believe that it is up to the buyer to educate themselves and undersand what they are buying. If a collector can afford to spend thousands of dollars on an item for hobby fun then they should be able to study about the item of interest and learn as much as they can. Not every collector is as fortunate as yourself. I have items that I was fooled on years ago that I cannot get my money back on. The price of learning I guess.

CollectGU
12-11-2008, 08:58 PM
Rick,
No need to take a shot at me. Personal attacks not appreciated. I understand your position. I too believe the buyer should know exactly what they are buying. I also strongly believe that it is up to the buyer to educate themselves and undersand what they are buying.


I too believe collectors should educate themselves but it should not be a prerquisite to collecting. There are many out there that have a passion to own and display these items but have no interest in learning how to spot a real from a fake. People buy Warhol paintings from Sotheby's and Christies without knowing how to spot the difference between the real and the fakes becasue they trust the due dilligence done by the auction house is solid and they are purchasing an authentic piece. Why, with sports memorabilia, is blame often laid on the buyer?

Regards,
Dave

DoctorLoomis
12-11-2008, 09:04 PM
You stated nowhere does it say this bat was used by Ruth. I submit that nowhere does it say it was not. The burden of proof is not on the buyer. The auction house carries that burden.

The simple way to approach this bat is as I said previously....stay away from it.

yanks12025
12-11-2008, 09:07 PM
Do you plan on bidding on it because your really telling us to stay away from it.

b.heagy
12-11-2008, 09:19 PM
I too believe collectors should educate themselves but it should not be a prerquisite to collecting. There are many out there that have a passion to own and display these items but have no interest in learning how to spot a real from a fake. People buy Warhol paintings from Sotheby's and Christies without knowing how to spot the difference between the real and the fakes becasue they trust the due dilligence done by the auction house is solid and they are purchasing an authentic piece. Why, with sports memorabilia, is blame often laid on the buyer?

Regards,
Dave


The more educated the buyer, the better the hobby. The less questionable items will be sold for big money, little money, whatever. The point is people should take the time to absorb as much knowledge as possible in the collecting interest that they desire. Not blaming the buyer, just want to see more people take the time to learn about what they love. Auction houses make misakes like everyone else, it is how they handle items brought into question that separates the bad from the good.

b.heagy
12-11-2008, 09:24 PM
You stated nowhere does it say this bat was used by Ruth. I submit that nowhere does it say it was not. The burden of proof is not on the buyer. The auction house carries that burden.

The simple way to approach this bat is as I said previously....stay away from it.


We both made our points. I see mine, and I see yours. We agree to disagree on the fact that he did/did not use the bat. I agree with you on the fact that the best thing to do is to stay away from any item if there is any doubt, no brainer.

DoctorLoomis
12-11-2008, 09:46 PM
Dear Yanks...no I will not be bidding on it. Furthermore I sense a little hostility in your comment. The reason I am saying stay away is because I dont want to see someone get smoked for 5-10 grand for a bat that was never anywhere near Babe Ruth. Thats why I am part of this forum....to uphold the integrity of our hobby. I consider it an honor thing. Dont you?

yanks12025
12-12-2008, 06:03 AM
We dont know for sure if Babe Ruth was ever near this bat. In many posts, me and also another member said the yankees used Zinn beck 300 models.

fromcooperstowntohollywood
12-12-2008, 09:33 AM
You don't know if Ruth was ever near this bat, but you also don't know if he was. This is a reckless thread that boasts your own hypotheses, when in reality, none of you can claim with 100% certainty anything about the bat. It was graded an A6, not an A10. However, A10 Ruth bats vary in weight from 34 ounces to 47. There are photos of Ruth using Zinn Beck bats. There are more photos of Ruth using 125 models. I don't believe there are any photos of Ruth using 250 model bats, but there are order records. Get over it. Encinorick, you make your claims because you believe you were deceived by Mastro. Whether you were or not, you got your money back.

encinorick
12-12-2008, 10:05 AM
From cooperstown to hollywood, I guess that covers everthing, doesn't it? Does it include everything in between as well?

Apparently you fashion yourself an expert. You have pictures and records and this and that information from here and there, and perhaps a dead body from the 1920's that talks, too.

I don't, I am a fan that collects sports stuff, simple as that. If an Auction House represents itself as an "expert" and wants to sell me something, it better be truthful and honest. When the title of the item says "Babe Ruth 1920's to Early 1930's Game Used" a "reasonable person" would interpet the literal language as a bat used by Babe Ruth in a game.

Be careful, my friend, hollywood is not far from encino, and I'll be watching you.

fromcooperstowntohollywood
12-12-2008, 10:37 AM
I am no expert, but I can do my homework. I know that an 80 year old bat can lose a lot of weight from when it was first manufactured (I've seen 5 ounces and heard of more.) I know Zinn Beck bats that have lost 6 ounces. I know Babe Ruth used Zinn Beck bats, though not nearly as common as 125's. That is what I know. Except for bats that come with ironclad provenance (and those are VERY scarce if you look at MEARS database and talk to Taube,) who knows for sure whether any Babe Ruth bat was ever used by him? I don't. Neither do you.