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View Full Version : Authentication, Who to trust?



cheardjr
01-06-2009, 12:43 PM
Had a question about a few recent problems i've been having concerning authentication companies. I recently had a problem with a few fake game used and autographed items so as a result i decided to have a few items checked by JSA. One item i had checked was a framed set of Sammy Sosa Autographed ball, Autographed 8x10 and game used bat.

Well the autographed ball and photo both failed and the bat they were unable to authenticate or reject. All 3 items i later realized have authentication and holograms from Global Authentication Inc. The photo is GV 15109 on their web site i will post the other later.

Who do i trust or is this all just a crap shot if it passes as real vs fake?

JSA told me that 90% of Global items are fake, and that they can not authenticate game used items at all. How do i know PSA wont tell me 90% of all JSA items are fake?

Thanks

trsent
01-06-2009, 12:52 PM
Had a question about a few recent problems i've been having concerning authentication companies. I recently had a problem with a few fake game used and autographed items so as a result i decided to have a few items checked by JSA. One item i had checked was a framed set of Sammy Sosa Autographed ball, Autographed 8x10 and game used bat.

Well the autographed ball and photo both failed and the bat they were unable to authenticate or reject. All 3 items i later realized have authentication and holograms from Global Authentication Inc. The photo is GV 15109 on their web site i will post the other later.

Who do i trust or is this all just a crap shot if it passes as real vs fake?

JSA told me that 90% of Global items are fake, and that they can not authenticate game used items at all. How do i know PSA wont tell me 90% of all JSA items are fake?

Thanks

Wow - JSA said "90% of all Global items are fake" that figure is really scary. I use JSA, but I prefer PSA/DNA as I trust them the most and they are part of Collector's Universe, which I have ties to from their coin and currency grading service.

It would be neat if JSA published that figure if they really said it, as I would love to see Global's reaction.

schubert1970
01-06-2009, 12:53 PM
I think a lot of this depends on the tyupe of item and athlete you're persuing. The best thing you can do is research through the forums and any other online resoucres and do your homework. You can never be 100% sure of anything except taxes and death, or getting something signed in person.

mvandor
01-06-2009, 01:50 PM
I have little faith in GAI, and would place far greater trust in PSA/DNA or JSA.

It has been my experience GAI has become VERY liberal in authenticating. Of course, they charge you more if they authenticate an item than if they reject it under their policies, so they have a built-in incentive to rubber stamp anything close.

kingjammy24
01-06-2009, 02:17 PM
GAI declared bankruptcy.

http://www.sportscollectorsdaily.com/latest-sports-collecting-news/global-authentication-files-chapter-11.html

rudy.

David
01-06-2009, 02:24 PM
For autographs (not commenting on game used), in person signing companies are very reliable, as the signings were done with witness and the players are generally under contract to sign. These companies include Steiner, TriStar, Mounted Memories, UDA (and others). The player's hologram next to the signature is a good sign of authenticity. The MLB hologram is also a strong indication of authenticity, as these signings are also done with witness. PSA/DNA and JSA are generally reliable 'after the fact' judgers, though aren't perfect. They don't witness the signing, but are judging later. GAI letters where Mike Gutierrez is listed as expert are reliable, as he's top notch. He left the company early on, so later LOAs won't have his name.

earlywynnfan
01-06-2009, 02:50 PM
I have personally submitted just one item to an authenticator in my life, so I'm far from an expert. However, many people have told me that if an item fails from PSA and/or JSA, send it to Global. That scares me.

Ken
earlywynnfan5@hotmail.com

suave1477
01-06-2009, 03:08 PM
GAI letters where Mike Gutierrez is listed as expert are reliable, as he's top notch. He left the company early on, so later LOAs won't have his name.

Well actually that is not necessarily true. Guittierz name may be on the LOA does not mean he was present at ever or examining every item that walks in the door. So the person who is actually doing the authenticating can still be wrong.

As far as GAI they have passed many bad items in my opinion, and it has been noted here in past threads that items that come form the have been questionable.

I have seen them at card shows and hand out LOAS like they were toilet paper anybody and everyone seemed to be getting an LOA didn't not a one fail.

One of there reps once was or still is a member of this forum and every time one of there items was in question and he was called upon he never answered.

I personally believe PSA/DNA & JSA are more trustworthy sources.

Also JSA was once apart of PSA/DNA

David
01-06-2009, 08:06 PM
The early version of GAI was very conservatives with autographs. During this this time it was tougher to get an LOA for an item than PSA or JSA. It was in recent times that they became lax. Whether or not Gutierrez was the personal authenticator, the Gutierrez name indicates the LOA is from the early, extra-careful version of GAI.

sonic
01-06-2009, 08:20 PM
Autograph authenticators aren't particularly reliable...or scrupulous. Both PSA/DNA and JSA have made some really stupid mistakes. At one point a TV station caught JSA authenticating bogus autographs through a sting they did at an autograph show.

http://www.autographalert.com/news.html chronicles some of the exploits of autograph authenticators. It's a good, eye opening read.

As an autograph collector, I believe that you have to become your own expert if you don't want to get ripped off. Get your items signed in person, or pay a little more and get them through sources such as UDA, GTSM, TriStar, Mounted Memories, Steiner, etc. if you want to be sure that they're authentic. If you have to go through some other source, do your homework.

sammy
01-06-2009, 08:47 PM
"JSA told me that 90% of Global items are fake..."

Personally, I believe whom ever states this, or believes this, does not know anything about the business of autograph authentication.

I also personally believe no one at JSA would make the statement the OP stated, because it would be ridiculously false and stupid.

trsent
01-06-2009, 10:29 PM
"JSA told me that 90% of Global items are fake..."

Personally, I believe whom ever states this, or believes this, does not know anything about the business of autograph authentication.

I also personally believe no one at JSA would make the statement the OP stated, because it would be ridiculously false and stupid.

Sammy, I agree with your statement 100% and after discussions today with authenticators about this statement - There is no chance it is true and I would doubt Jimmy Spence would make such a statement.

As GAI, now in Chapter 11 Bankruptcy, may have given opinions on questionable items, they have also certified many, many genuine items. I know a dealer who had thousands of items certified by GAI that were all autographed in person at autograph sessions with the players. If all his items are genuine, that would mean every other item authenticated is not genuine based on the statement given to start this thread.

We all know this is not true, as GAI has certified plenty of genuine items as their prices are often more competitive than PSA/DNA and JSA so a lot of people used their services.

sammy
01-06-2009, 11:30 PM
Joel,

I don't know the last time we agreed on anything, but I thank you for your comments, and I must state that I also agree with you 100 percent in regard to your statement.

"We all know this is not true, as GAI has certified plenty of genuine items as their prices are often more competitive than PSA/DNA and JSA so a lot of people used their services."

I have many items certified by GAI that I personally sent to them for authentication. It was not that I needed to know, but that others may feel more comfortable with nationally known third party authentication.

They have also turned down items I have sent in, which we have tended to disagree on.

A major contributing factor in my decision to use GAI instead of JSA or PSA/DNA is the cost factor.

Being as PSA/DNA charges 100 just to look at a Mantle autograph, and JSA charges 75, with shipping and insurance both ways added on top of that, a seller's profit margin has been reduced considerably.

It has actually, on a number of times, been more profitable for the authentication company then it was for me, as the owner and seller. That is right, they made more money off of an item then I did.

Another favorable factor in using GAI is if an item does not pass, they don't charge you the full amount as PSA/DNA and JSA does.

To some, they see this as an incentive to just past things regardless of the items probability for authenticity. But I believe they are missing the main point, which is to help collectors and dealers save some money.

As I stated, I have had a number of items turned down over the years which I believe to be real, as well as some that were questionable. I know first hand GAI does not just past anything to increase their bottom line.

It is called integrity. They are constantly trying to improve their abilities and services, and I for one will continue to use them, as well as the other companies.

jppopma
01-07-2009, 12:58 AM
I agree that the odds just can't be there for 90% of anything they do to be fake. Maybe it was miquoted as 90% of fake items will get a passing grade. Still seems like a bold statement and a stretch, but not near as blanket like.

cohibasmoker
01-07-2009, 03:49 PM
Trust no-one.

I can't understand why people collect autographs when there are safer items to collect in the hobby like Super-Star football and baseball jerseys. And let's not forget vintage football helmets.

Just my opinion.

Jim

both-teams-played-hard
01-07-2009, 05:21 PM
There is only one sure way to know if your autograph is real.

http://img91.imageshack.us/img91/6841/mm1961pt4.jpg

http://img98.imageshack.us/img98/2940/mick1985mk8.jpg

jdr3
01-07-2009, 06:08 PM
Who's that guy in the picture with Warren as a kid?

both-teams-played-hard
01-07-2009, 06:26 PM
Who's that guy in the picture with Warren as a kid?
Some old dude who smelled like Gilbey's.

heckler
02-07-2010, 04:06 PM
In my opinion the authentication process is a big joke. The big 3 will never say that the others items are authentic. I have had dealings with all 3 and PSA/DNA is absolutly horrible when it comes to authentication. I once went to them with 50 items that were all 100% real and obtained by me in person and none of them were bought or traded for and they rejected all of them and still charged me full price so they get paid whether they are good or bad. I have dealt with JSA where I was asked "where did you obtain these" as if that has anything to do with them being good or bad. If I told them I had dinner with the player and they signed for me would that mean they were good? or If I said I bought them would that mean they were bad? What does where I got the autograph have to do with them saying they were good or bad? I have also dealt with the old GAI and the new, in my opinion the new is def. better than the old. I remember one time about 5 years ago when Justin Priddy (now owner of ACE authentication) had a customer come to him with a stack of about 300 photos that he didnt even look at and just started to put stickers on, needless to say he was fired for a simular incident and now owns his own company where he is doing the same thing. The new GAI run under Steve Sipp is the way to go, they are honest and will provide you with an honest and reliable service that you can trust.

However in closing the opinion of authentication companies is just that, an opinion. They do not guarentee anything and on all 3 of the companies cert cards it clearly states "It is our opinion" so does one companies opinion mean more then the next???

yankees.stub
02-07-2010, 06:15 PM
From my experiences, I trust no one except when I get the autograph myself. Old school authentication is having a picture with the person who signed the stuff AND a picture or two of that person holding onto the item he signed.


You need this just in case you want to SELL your item with hope that you will make some extra bucks for your time and effort.


Now moving to the present, I can rank the following authenticated company as follow:

1. PSADNA - top of the line but take too long to get your items back. Sometimes I sent them stuff to be graded and I completely forgot about them until I get a package three months later. If PSADNA can have a quicker turn around without costing an arm and a leg, I know more collectors will send in their stuff.

2. Steiner - I like their stuff but the pricing can be a little better. Because of Steiner, you will NEVER ever see a YANKEES FANFEST so this forum members can fight over the stuff they get. I like Steiner better also when they have shows when you can meet your favorite athletes in person and have your items authenticated on the spot - which is every collector dream!

3. Beckett - same as PSADNA but a little less expensive.

4. JSA - I like them since it run by a former member of PSA but I really really dont like the GENERIC certificate. It's just too simple in my eyes. Full certificates are very nice to look at and it's do-able but again, if you are going to spend a decent amount of money to have your item verified - you might as well go with the best out there.


5. Dont trust GAI because some of the stuff they authenticated - I was like are you serious? Maybe Jeter signature looked like that when he was drunk and just got out of accident .... come on!

xpress34
02-07-2010, 11:53 PM
I posted this earlier in another thread about Grading cards, but it also covers the 'authentication' and auction houses:


Just some FYI:

Currently, any Sports card ca. 1977 and before fall into the VINTAGE category for most dealers.

Me personally - I would NEVER use BGS/BCGG as I find it a great conflict of interest to put out the leading 'guide', while also grading cards AND listing cards that your company grades as more valuable than any other graded cards.

SCG - I have never heard a bad word one about them and - as was stated earlier - they are the KING among Vintage collectors when it comes to grading.

GAI - I didn't even know they ever offered Grading, just authentication services for autographs.

PSA/DNA - I've had my issues (like many others) with them over Autos I personally received from players being sent back as inconclusive, etc while they kept my $100+, BUT after reading this book:


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v738/xpress34/scan0001.jpg

I will NEVER use PSA/DNA or many of the Auction houses named within.

If you want to read the dirt about what goes on at these places, READ THIS BOOK, you might rethink what Auction Houses, Authenticators, Graders, etc that you trust.

Just my .02

- Chris

P.S. - That being said, I do have a 1951 Berk Ross Panel Set that is slabbed and graded by PSA/DNA, but it was purchased that way. I am considering sending it in to SGC to have the entire set regraded and re-slabbed.

Read the book and you will definately come away with a sour taste in your mouth... also, as Sammy said earlier - READ AutographAlert .com . Great dirt on what is going on in the industry.

legaleagle92481
02-08-2010, 12:39 AM
From my experiences, I trust no one except when I get the autograph myself. Old school authentication is having a picture with the person who signed the stuff AND a picture or two of that person holding onto the item he signed.


You need this just in case you want to SELL your item with hope that you will make some extra bucks for your time and effort.


Now moving to the present, I can rank the following authenticated company as follow:

1. PSADNA - top of the line but take too long to get your items back. Sometimes I sent them stuff to be graded and I completely forgot about them until I get a package three months later. If PSADNA can have a quicker turn around without costing an arm and a leg, I know more collectors will send in their stuff.

2. Steiner - I like their stuff but the pricing can be a little better. Because of Steiner, you will NEVER ever see a YANKEES FANFEST so this forum members can fight over the stuff they get. I like Steiner better also when they have shows when you can meet your favorite athletes in person and have your items authenticated on the spot - which is every collector dream!

3. Beckett - same as PSADNA but a little less expensive.

4. JSA - I like them since it run by a former member of PSA but I really really dont like the GENERIC certificate. It's just too simple in my eyes. Full certificates are very nice to look at and it's do-able but again, if you are going to spend a decent amount of money to have your item verified - you might as well go with the best out there.


5. Dont trust GAI because some of the stuff they authenticated - I was like are you serious? Maybe Jeter signature looked like that when he was drunk and just got out of accident .... come on!

Since when does Steiner authenticate autographs/gu items or Beckett for that matter? I know beckett authenticates/grades cards but that is it. And do you seriously rate PSA over Steiner? Steiner sells autographs from their signings only and G/U items that they obtain from their team partnerships. PSA sometimes witnesses signings but most of their business is rendering an opinion on items that were signed previously. Here is my two cents when it comes to autographs:

Get it signed in person, mail order it from a signing if you want your item signed and have no other way of getting the autograph or buy items that originated from Steiner, Mounted Memories, Upper Deck Tristar, GTSM, Superstar Greetings or Collector's Showcase of America. Or that are MLB authenticated. Other than that don't waste your money because you can never be sure it is real. Personally after 20 years of autograph collecting I have concluded that modern autographs are like baseball cards made in the 1980's, there is an overabundance of them for every modern player and the only people who will make money off of them are the players, big signing companies and the dealers.

obpercent1
02-10-2010, 03:00 PM
Count me as another person not in favor or PSA. I sent in a Dice-K autograped sweet spot ball that I personally got signed directly in front of my eyes on fathers day 2007 at Fenway Park before the gates opened and they rejected it, charged me the full price and when I asked them how they could possibly reject it their excuse was that they did not have enough of his exempliaries on file to autheticate it. I simply went off and asked them how in good faith they could advertise then that they could authenicate one for him and they had no response. So now the clowns as PSA have in their data base a real Dice K autograph that they in fact say is a fake.

Part two of the story: I brought the ball to a show where JSA was and they said it was 100 % real(of which I knew already). Like previous folks have said the only true way of knowing is getting it front of your own eyes. After that point everything is simply a "matter of opinion". By the way it really is a sweet Dice-K autograph that he took his time to sign boldly across the entire sweet spot and put his # on as well.

xpress34
02-10-2010, 03:59 PM
OBP -

Like yourself, I sent in my Pujols ROY inscribed ball that I had personally signed in 2002 and they rejected it because they didn't have enough early examples AND, they had never seen a ROY inscription by him before.

I have been told NUMEROUS times that if you aren't one of their 'big-time' dealers, they will NOT authenticate your auto the 1st time, but if you turn it right back around, it will come back authenticated. In other words, pay twice as much and they will give it their stamp of approval.

In the book I referenced below - 'THE CARD' - it discusses how at one point in time, they 'graded' and authenticated so many items (the # is in the book) with a staff of 16 people that in order to do so, those 16 people would have had to have worked round the clock 8 hour shifts with no lunch break and only minimal bathrooms breaks in order to give as much as 5 seconds of their time to each item! In other words, they would have barely had time to move an item from one stack to another! And that does NOT include anytime for checking in items or packing and shipping items back out, much less writing the LOAs or slabbing the cards they were grading! (I may be a little off in my paraphrasing, nut you get the gist of it.)

Just another blight on the hobby IMHO...

- Chris

Mulligans
02-11-2010, 08:33 PM
Very interesting posts guys....Which Authenticators if any will authenticate game used items?

What is the process for authenticating a game used item?

sportscentury
02-11-2010, 08:54 PM
Very interesting posts guys....Which Authenticators if any will authenticate game used items?

What is the process for authenticating a game used item?

I trust and use MeiGray (MeiGray.com). Barry Meisel, one of the founders and owners, is a GUU member and regular poster here. Their authentication is based on photomatch analysis. If you don't know what photomatch analysis is, I assure you that it is easily worth 10 minutes of your time to call or email them to learn more about their service. I do a lot of photomatching on my own, but when I need a hand with a project, MeiGray is the company I call. A couple of other companies claim to do photomatching, but I can assure you that their service is nothing like MeiGray's. How do I know? Because I have dealt with these other companies directly and have been disappointed in their guesswork.