1989 Griffey - Ebay [Archive]

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kingjammy24

04-11-2006, 01:07 PM

I saw this jersey and was hoping that someone wouldn't get taken but it seems I was overly optimistic.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=8793259367

Where to start with this gem..

- it's a size 40. I'm not sure I need to elaborate on that issue.
- the seller, who apparently has been in the industry for 12 yrs, writes that the "Jersey is a size 40 but measures up more like a 44 or 46". A comment so ludicrous that I don't even know what to make of it. How does a size 40 jersey "measure up like a 46" ? So either the jersey is really a 44 or 46 and someone sewed a size 40 tag on it (makes no sense) or the jersey magically expanded over the years.
- the Rawlings tag is from 1990/1991, yet the flag tag says 1989. Another Scoreboard piece?
- notice the border on the left and right sides of the tag? that is, there's a different texture to the left and right sides of the manufacturers tag. 1988/1989 tags didn't have those borders.

here's the proper tagging for a 1989 Griffey:

http://img132.imageshack.us/img132/6750/kg9lm.jpg

I'm wondering if this is a Scoreboard jersey with the "Griffey Jr." name removed and a "Griffey" name added.

Rudy.

centerfieldsports.com

04-11-2006, 01:50 PM

This jersey is mine-
What happened to emailing the seller first????

This jersey measures up perfect with a size 46 jersey-

The jersey has NOT been tampered with. The name plate is 100%ORIGINAL.

We have handled several late 90's Rawlings jerseys that where tagged smaller than what they measured up to.

If you have any other ?'s you can call us or email us at sales@centerfieldsports.com (sales@centerfieldsports.com)

centerfieldsports.com

04-11-2006, 02:03 PM

We are also selling this shirt as an ISSUED jersey. Exactly what it is.
Next time if you have ?'s email us first.

kingjammy24

04-11-2006, 02:24 PM

If I had emailed first and your answer below is the one I would've received privately, then there would've been no point in emailing and I still would've posted my thoughts.

The jersey measures up to a 46 yet is tagged as a 40?
So when the Mariners received this jersey from Rawlings and saw that it was tagged as a 40, the clubhouse manager took out a tape measure, saw that it was really a 46, and then issued it to Griffey?
The clubhouse manager was expecting a 44 or 46 for Griffey, he received a jersey tagged as a 40, and yet he still issued it? Is any of this likely or plausible?

And you've handled several like this? Have you handled many with incorrect manufacturer tags (the Rawlings tag is from 1990 & 1991)?
This sort of mismatched year/manufacturer tag issue is frequently seen on Scoreboard pieces.

I don't understand the significance of saying that you're selling it as "game-issued". Game-issued, of course, means that it was hanging in the locker room, waiting for Griffey to use it in 1989 and he simply never got around to it. It doesn't somehow absolve the jersey of issues. It isn't a carte blanche to ignore or allow such issues. "This jersey doesn't match the size and the tagging is from the wrong year". "But it's game issued so it's ok!".

At any rate, if you're interested in the jersey, here are the assumptions you must genuinely believe:
- Rawlings mislabeled it.
- when the clubhouse received the mislabeled jersey, it decided to measure it and issue it to Griffey (as they wouldn't have put a legit size 40 inside Griffey's locker)

Anything's possible I guess. Whether it's likely is another story.

Rudy.

trsent

04-11-2006, 02:37 PM

Rudy, why does "game issued" mean it was ever in the locker room?

Who set that definition? Really, the term means that it is tagged identical or similar to one used in a game - No one ever stats that a "game issued" jersey came from a hanger in the locker room.

Sure, the definition is vague, but it doesn't mean what you hope it means because the term is vague, but I know it doesn't mean the jersey came from a hanger in a locker room.

As for the measurement issues, I do not know who would have determined that the jersey was really a size 46 but tagged 40, so who knows or can prove anything more than the seller states. Now, I do also understand that the jersey is mis-tagged per your tagging guide, so that issue is a concern - Game used or game issued or similar to game issued.

The description basically comes from a known seller who is making it clear, they want the eBay bidder to believe this jersey may have been used in a game, which doesn't seem possible based on the information Rudy has provided of the incorrect Rawlings tagging for that era.

centerfieldsports.com

04-11-2006, 02:45 PM

Eric

04-11-2006, 02:56 PM

trsent

04-11-2006, 03:03 PM

I never once said that jr may have worn it. Also I never said it hung in his locker. I am stating that this jersey was made for jr to wear. It is 100% proper and has a real griffey autograph on it.

This is why this forum sucks. You never give anyone a chance. No wonder people don't like to post on it.

If you don't want to bid on it don't I am selling it as an issued jersey signed by Ken Griffey Jr. A rookie era autograph on a real jersey is worth way more that the opening bid.

What you are missing is that your wording, especially in the title and the description mentioning that the jersey shows possible use may lead bidders to bidding because of these words in the title and description.

I would think if this forum sucks that you wouldn't discuss the item with us, because the truth is this forum with people such as Rudy who has taught us how to use photo-matching as part of our authentication process is an amazing place to learn about game used equipment. Sorry Rudy didn't email you first, his issues are valid and your jersey will sell so there should be no further concern.

The main concern is too many sellers have used wording lately to receive higher prices for their items because they used wording to make a buyer possibly believe the item is game used when it appears there is no chance that it could have ever been worn.

In the case of your jersey, it has a tag from a Griffey, Jr. jersey by Rawlings that was not used in 1989, according to the information Rudy posted above. It is similar to a game jersey, end of story, no one but Rudy feels that the jersey should have come off a hanger in the locker room.

centerfieldsports.com

04-11-2006, 03:17 PM

I have no problem discussing items with you. As long as you don't back me into a corner. I have not and will not ever sell anything that isn't real.

Facts- The autograph is real (certified by us and Psa/Dna)
The jersey is a real Griffey pro jersey (with a 1989 year tag) Have we not seen diffrent Rawlings tags on diffrent year jerseys, I sure have.

Fact- I put used in the title, This is called marketing, I will get alot more looks at this jersey by this one word

Eric

04-11-2006, 03:27 PM

Centerfield Sports

Just a suggestion-
You might have an issue with Rudy, but it is really worth insulting the thousands who read and participate in this site (you realize they are all potential customers) by grouping them all in with "that is why this forum sucks"

People who participate on this site- myself included take a lot of pride in sharing information to help each other make educated purchases.

Rudy was wrong to not contact you first, but his questions were legitimate. He just should have given you a chance to respond first.
Eric
moderator

centerfieldsports.com

04-11-2006, 03:37 PM

Eric-
I wasn't just calling out rudy. There are alot of stars on this forum who all they do with there time is call out people. I know alot of big dealers who will never post on this forum because of this reason.
No chance is given. Back them into a corner and then beat them with bats.

Spiezio23

04-12-2006, 03:25 AM

Without any bashing here.. how about we look at the facts.

What you are stating is that this jersey was issued to Griffey Jr. to wear in 1989 but with 1990/1991 tagging.

To me that's like going to the Cardinals and buying a jersey right now but with 2007 or 2008 tagging.

How does a company add tagging to a jersey with tags from the future?

The T stands for "Tailored" correct? so is the custom tailoring on this jersey taking a size 40 and making it a 44 or 46? Possible I guess, by why not just use a 44 or 46 to begin with?

-Jeremy

both-teams-played-hard

04-12-2006, 12:13 PM

I know alot of big dealers who will never post on this forum because of this reason.

Name one.

This Griffey Jr. size debate could be easily answered if Centerfield Sports revealed an armpit to armpit measurement of the jersey in question. Members with known legit examples of late 80s-early 90s Rawlings shirts could measure their size 44s or 46s to compare. The tag may be mis-marked, but the armpit to armpit measurement is carved in stone.

thethrill23

04-14-2006, 02:26 PM

just found this link on centerfields website to the griffey jersey in question take a look and see http://www.centerfieldsports.com/griffeyjersey.htm

dranimal

04-18-2006, 05:08 AM

Rudy has been suspended for not following the stated rules of the forum. You must contact a seller before calling their items into question on this site.

I am happy to answer any questions about this here or at ecky3@aol.com

I don't know how many times I have to say this, but there are rules around here for a reason. Please familiarize yourself with them immediately if you haven't already.

Thank you
Eric
moderator
Some rules may need to be revisited. To suspend a guy who shows the data and can be found for rebuttal who didn't name call or bash personally is wacked IMO. A guy like Rudy (I do not know personally) who lends creedence to this forum, knowledge to the hobby, and unlimited benefits to prospective collectors is much more beneficial to this forum and its members than a potentially misleading seller. This forum is for opinion and as a reader I would appreciate Rudy's observations which he more than backs up by data and thoroughness than a cheap made up rule that restrains opinion. Harassment and name calling might be a different call but this is not a positive way to retain insightful members on this forum. Thanks for the ability to post.

Eric

04-18-2006, 07:58 AM

I agree with you- Rudy is a valuable member of this forum. He has great insight, and i enjoy learning from his posts.

Unfortunately his account was suspended (for 5 days- which has passed) because a rule that I remind people over and over was not followed. Plus, I had just made a post saying that the rule had been ignored too often recently and future violations will result in suspensions.

Simply, before coming on here and calling someone's item a fake- contact the seller with your questions.

That gives the seller a chance to give an explanation. The seller's reaction is a valuable piece of info in deciding to do future business with the seller. Maybe it was an honest mistake. Maybe the seller didn't know what he was selling. It is not necessarily someone "trying to pull one over."

Also, the reason for the rule is to make sure that unfounded accusations are not thrown around on this forum. If that were the case it would have very little credibility.

I think I need to explain something here. I am by no means saying questionable items and questionable practices should not be discussed on this forum.

They should- it's part of educating each other and it's part of helping the hobby evolve.

We have the right to share facts and sprited opinions on these topics. I am just saying, take the extra step and attempt to talk to the seller before making your post.

Thanks
Eric

ChrisCavalier

04-18-2006, 12:04 PM

...than a cheap made up rule that restrains opinion.
Hello dranimal,

Thank you for your post. I did, however, feel the need to add something here.

This site was created to benefit the game used collecting community. As such, one of the issues we had to address on the forum was how to, along with encouraging the dissemination of information, protect industry participants from posts having the potential to unnecessarily discredit them and affect their livelihoods. That is not to say an item someone is selling cannot be challenge. In fact, it is quite the opposite. However, if someone's item is going to be challenged, we have established a process to do this so sellers, who may not be aware of issues with their items, can be alerted and given a chance to address the issues before their reputations are challenged on the forum. While you can say a seller can come on later and defend themselves, I can tell you that these type of threads have far reaching implications on someone's reputation (whether justified or not) once a thread is initiated. That is why I think the seller in this instance responded so emotionally.

Thus, we do welcome people on the forum to inform other members of issues that may exist with an item, or even with a seller. All we ask is that the rules are followed to make sure things are done responsibly and that the forum doesn't lose it's credibility and be labeled (as some in the hobby have tried to do) as simply a place where disgruntled collectors with private agendas try to bash sellers in an attempt to discredit them.

Personally, I don't think asking people to follow the protocols we have established will prevent anyone from sharing information that can help people make more informed purchase decisions. In fact, when you look at the site, with areas like the experts corner and bat shipping records information, do you honestly think we we would create a "cheap made up rule that restrains opinion"? We are out to help the hobby and, in my opinion, one of the reasons we are become such a driving force is because people are recognizing (contrary to what some say about us) that we are not some renegade faction of zealots with private agendas out to discredit everyone in the hobby.

One last thought. While I have as much respect for Rudy as anyone on the forum and think his posts are among the most valuable on the site, there is no way the rules can work if they are not applied to everyone without partiality. In fact, I have emailed Rudy and he informed me that he was not totally aware of the rule asking posters to contact a seller, and giving the seller an opportunity to respond, before posting any "issues" with an item. Unfortunately, while I know Rudy would not intentionally violate any of the rules, the #1 rule on the site states "You are required to know the rules of the forum - ignorance of the rules will not be a defense." Thus, while we could have tried to justify looking the other way and letting it go, if the rules are not applied to everyone (including those like Rudy who are among the most valuable to the forum) then there is no use having them.

While the rules may not please everyone, I hope our members can understand their purpose and respect them. I believe they are helping this forum gain credibility so that others cannot simply "cry foul" whenever legitimate questions are raised regarding their merchandise. While I also know Rudy's intentions were not to try to discredit the seller and the last thing we want to do is discourage someone like him from posting, I hope everyone can appreciate the rules have to be enforced with even our most valued members if they are going to have any credence whatsoever.

Sincerely,
Christopher Cavalier
CEO - Game Used Universe

JimCaravello

04-18-2006, 02:04 PM

Just my two cents worth, as I have been following this thread pretty closely. I just recently completed a great sales transaction with Rudy and was very disappointed to see that he was suspended. Also - he has added a ton of insight with all of his postings on the Forum for a long time. He is a great asset to the GUU Community. He is one of the few members in which I read all of his postings - as I learn so much.

All that being said, I think the punishment fits the crime so to speak. Five days is really not that bad for a small violation of the rules - and yes, I think we need rules on the Forum. If I break the rules, I should be suspended, as well as anyone else. Unfortulately, we need rules or the Forum could turn into a haven of unfiltered comments which would turn a lot of people off and which ultimately would ruin the great progress that the Forum and GUU have had on the hobby. Think about the Forum with no rules, no accountability to who you are, etc. That's not for me - and I think most people would agree. The rules of the Forum are designed to promote the hobby which we all love.

The rules are fairly basic and hopefully they will prevent the bashing of dealers, collectors, etc. Now Rudy didn't bash anyone - he just brought up facts as he saw them. Unfortunately, without the rules, not everyone would post as Rudy did - they would post with the same facts and bash or throw the seller under the bus. I think its important that we give every seller the benefit of the doubt - even though that is tough to do sometimes. In the long run, it will be better for all involved. As a contributing Expert I want to be associated with a site that is not labeled as a dumping ground of messages and posts with no rules. I want people to say "man, you have to visit GUU and the Forum.... there is this guy Rudy out there that knows everything about game used jerseys"..........

Rudy - I hope you can see your way through this. I haven't seen any new postings from you since the end of your suspension. I think I speak for many others on the site and look forward to your future postings - which as mentioned above, contain a wealth of information. Jim

both-teams-played-hard

04-18-2006, 02:07 PM

Name one.

This Griffey Jr. size debate could be easily answered if Centerfield Sports revealed an armpit to armpit measurement of the jersey in question. Members with known legit examples of late 80s-early 90s Rawlings shirts could measure their size 44s or 46s to compare. The tag may be mis-marked, but the armpit to armpit measurement is carved in stone.

I realize the auction ended, however, we never did find out an armpit to armpit measurement. I figured that since the seller has already responded to this thread, this would be an O.K. place to ask. Maybe Rawlings simply put a 40 tag on a 44 or 46...without the measurements, we will never know.

hblakewolf

04-18-2006, 02:23 PM

Jim-I agree that Rudy adds a tremendous amount to this site. Although there are rules in place, in this case, I must disagree with Eric handing him a 5 day suspension. What people don't realize is that the forum needs posters like Rudy-Rudy does not seen the Forum. As such, I would not be too surprised if Rudy does not return.

Howard Wolf
hblakewolf@patmedia.net

Just my two cents worth, as I have been following this thread pretty closely. I just recently completed a great sales transaction with Rudy and was very disappointed to see that he was suspended. Also - he has added a ton of insight with all of his postings on the Forum for a long time. He is a great asset to the GUU Community. He is one of the few members in which I read all of his postings - as I learn so much.

All that being said, I think the punishment fits the crime so to speak. Five days is really not that bad for a small violation of the rules - and yes, I think we need rules on the Forum. If I break the rules, I should be suspended, as well as anyone else. Unfortulately, we need rules or the Forum could turn into a haven of unfiltered comments which would turn a lot of people off and which ultimately would ruin the great progress that the Forum and GUU have had on the hobby. Think about the Forum with no rules, no accountability to who you are, etc. That's not for me - and I think most people would agree. The rules of the Forum are designed to promote the hobby which we all love.

The rules are fairly basic and hopefully they will prevent the bashing of dealers, collectors, etc. Now Rudy didn't bash anyone - he just brought up facts as he saw them. Unfortunately, without the rules, not everyone would post as Rudy did - they would post with the same facts and bash or throw the seller under the bus. I think its important that we give every seller the benefit of the doubt - even though that is tough to do sometimes. In the long run, it will be better for all involved. As a contributing Expert I want to be associated with a site that is not labeled as a dumping ground of messages and posts with no rules. I want people to say "man, you have to visit GUU and the Forum.... there is this guy Rudy out there that knows everything about game used jerseys"..........

Rudy - I hope you can see your way through this. I haven't seen any new postings from you since the end of your suspension. I think I speak for many others on the site and look forward to your future postings - which as mentioned above, contain a wealth of information. Jim

Eric

04-18-2006, 03:03 PM

JimCaravello

04-18-2006, 04:06 PM

One other thing I failed to mention earlier.....I participate in a couple of other Forums outside of this one for other hobbies that I am involved in ( yes - my wife does see me and does communicate to me occasionally ) - and they all have rules and regulations - as well as suspension policies very similar to our Forum.....just thought I would comment on that. Jim

ChrisCavalier

04-18-2006, 05:28 PM

What people don't realize is that the forum needs posters like Rudy-Rudy does not seen the Forum.
That's an interesting opinion Howard. Though I guess my view is a little different. I think we all need each other if we are going to continue to improve the hobby that we all claim to love.

I guess that is what makes us all unique.

Sincerely,
Chris

trsent

04-18-2006, 05:44 PM

Rudy has told me this is a hobby to him as he turned down my offer to start a photo-matching authentication service with him previously. I believe Rudy, just like many of us, need this forum and the forum needs us.

josports

04-18-2006, 06:54 PM

I think we all need each other if we are going to continue to improve the hobby that we all claim to love.

I guess that is what makes us all unique.

Sincerely,
Chris

I agree with that statement.
JO

MSpecht

04-20-2006, 09:01 PM

This discussion has had valid points posted throughout on several sides of the issue. After thinking about it for the past few days, I remain convinced that there is no clear-cut, black-and-white correct position.

First, I have a tremendous amount of respect for Rudy and the knowledge and expertise he brings to this forum. For someone who is a hobbyist, his research and reasoned opinions are first rate. I have spent alot of money printing out glossy photos of his labeling information posts for my personal reference files. As someone said previously in this thread, Rudy's posts are always a must read for me, even if the general topic is one which is of minimal interest to me or even one with which I am not familiar. I sincerely hope the forum does not lose Rudy as a frequent contributor.

Second, I am absolutely convinced that Eric, whom I have only known through posts on this forum and possibly an email or two, is sincere in his vision for this site and there is no hidden agenda in his efforts. Anyone who has spent the time and effort and personal resources to begin what was basically an interactive blog site -- Game Used Forum -- and bring it to the point that it is now, has my respect and appreciation. I've been an active participant in the hobby for over 30 years and the list of truly selfless people out there is, well, let's just say it doesn't take too long to call role.

Third, I have been equally impressed with Chris, with whom I have had frequent hobby-related, non-hobby-related, and philosophical correspondence and phone conversations over the past months, and am happy to call him a friend. His desire to elevate the general knowledge base of the hobby in an effort to make public much of the information that often has been in possession of only a privileged few, is, in my opinion, unequaled. This is not to say that over the years there have not been people willing to share information with others, but Chris has found a mechanism to bring it together in a manner more accessible that has been previously possible. His efforts, of course, are assisted by technological advances that make the old days of digging through your desk for Dick Dobbins' phone number fairly obsolete.

I believe that the basic question to consider in this situation is simple -- motive. Was the intent of Rudy's original post to inform people of information he possessed that, in his opinion, may have assisted them in making a decision on whether or not to add this particular item to their personal collection, or was his intent to "call-out" a specific seller in an accusatory manner? While I believe 100 % that the former was the case, I also know that if I was the seller of the item, I would have liked to have been the first person to receive Rudy's information and had a chance to research the matter myself before being the target of what could be viewed as an accusatory post. There is a reason that rules have been put in place in the forum -- irresponsible postings with secondary personal agendas could run wild if posters could hide behind anoniminity or didn't have to defend their opinions with factual information. Or, as in this case, give a seller a 24 hour window of opportunity to evaluate his item based on information that you have that he may not.

I realize that the opportunity exists for forum members to wonder if I am applying a double standard here, as I frequently post information on this forum about H & B Louisville Slugger factory records. With some regularity I include a personal opinion on whether a specific bat is what the seller or auction house purports it to be -- an opinion that may be positive or negative about the item. Is that any different than what Rudy did in his original post on the Griffey Jr. jersey? I don't honestly know, and that is the grey area

The standard that I have chosen to set for myself is that I will respond honestly to any request that comes my way, with all the factual information I have access to, whether the genesis of the request is a bat currently in a person's personal possession or a bat that is currently in auction from either an auction house or on Ebay. I do not contact the seller first in most cases, unless it is someone with whom I have an established relationship and can pick up the phone and call. I also do not patrol the depths of Ebay or the auction houses as a self-appointed Auction Cop -- that would certainly be a full-time job in itself. On the other hand, I have assisted people in getting refunds from Ebay and yes, even PayPal, and have convinced sellers that the merchandise they auctioned was not what they thought it was (yes, that's an overly generous, politically correct statement.) Have there been times when I am convinced that someone is about to get taken, big time? Absolutely! Have there been times when I wish someone would ask a question on the forum about a certain item so that I could respond with both barrels? Yes indeed! Have there been times when the potential cost of an item was so out-of-line with its actual value due to a misrepresentation that I felt compelled to contact bidders? Yes, but only twice when the seller refused to correct demonstrable mis-statements.

I realize that I have set my somewhat defined standards, in part, because of my association with Game Used Universe and my association with a national authentication service. Others may not feel compelled to such restrictions. Still, ultimately, the test comes down to a simple one -- are the actions of a forum member intended to further knowledge of the hobby and promote its well-being, or is there something else going on? The grey area is in the execution, and that is why basic, minimal rules have been established by Eric and Chris, who have put themselves on the line as parties responsible for the comments and representations that appear on this forum and, by extension, the conduct of forum members. In this case, would a reminder or 'warning' to Rudy to be mindful of GUU forum protocol (rules) have been sufficient to prevent a repeat of the situation? I believe so, but was the 5 day suspension overly harsh in response? Probably not.

Hopefully this will be a reminder to all, including myself, to post in a responsible manner, and take a second to consider the potential impact of your comments. Sometimes, people do just make mistakes, with no fraud or malice intended. As Sigmund Freud once said, "Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar."

Mike Jackitout7@aol.com

ChrisCavalier

04-21-2006, 03:42 PM

I realize the auction ended, however, we never did find out an armpit to armpit measurement. I figured that since the seller has already responded to this thread, this would be an O.K. place to ask. Maybe Rawlings simply put a 40 tag on a 44 or 46...without the measurements, we will never know.
Hello Everyone,

Let me first say thank you to everyone for sharing their thoughts on this thread. I truly appreciate the opportunity to hear everyone's sentiments. Personally, I would like to leave a couple of last thoughts on the subject and hope we can move forward with our attempts to help the hobby.

Regarding the quote above by both-teams-played-hard, this is exactly the reason we are exerting so much effort to make sure the posts are done in a responsible manner. This question deserves to be answered. Instead, the thread ended up going down the path where the seller came back with comments such as "This is why this forum sucks. You never give anyone a chance. No wonder people don't like to post on it" and "I know alot of big dealers who will never post on this forum because of this reason. No chance is given. Back them into a corner and then beat them with bats."

While it seems strange that I have to say this, we involved with the administration of the site want to make sure our members have useful information as much as anyone. We wouldn't have invested so much time and money to help the hobby if we didn't. However, we are not interested in creating some form of wild, wild west where posters can shoot first and ask questions later. We have chosen to implement some basic rules which we believe will create a forum that is responsible in its actions toward the collecting community at large and is respected as a site that hobbyists know has their best interests in mind.

I strongly believe if these basic, simple rules are followed those involved with this forum would be spending more time getting answers to the type of questions BTPH has asked above and less time trying to combat the accusations of defensive sellers or answering calls from people claiming they want to sue the site administrators and the people making posts they believe are unjustifiably damaging their business. As a side note, for everyone's information, we get calls all the time from offended parties threatening legal action. These same callers often request your personal information --which we do not give out.

While I realize some posters want a site where they can post their grievances without any limitations, the truth is that is not the type of site we are interested in running here. Our goal is to help the collecting community the best way we know how. As such, I can tell you that having these rules allows us to: a) create a positive environment where participants can exchange useful information and maximize their benefits from the exchange; b) make sure our site acts responsibly as a growing force in the hobby; and c) spend our time coming up with ways to help the hobby rather than constantly dealing with accusations and potential lawsuits. If others want a site where there are no rules to prevent the potential conflicts like ones where sellers -- who simply may not know of the potential issues with their items -- feel unjustly threatened and lash out at the forum or where the site administrators will spend their time dealing with accusations and legal implications rather than focusing on more ways to help the hobby, you will likely need to look elsewhere.

As for this site, I can assure you that we have many things planned that are going to continue to help the game used collecting community enormously. I hope those participating in the site trust that we have taken all these things into consideration and join with us in our efforts to make the hobby a better place for everyone.

Sincerely,
Christopher Cavalier
CEO - Game Used Universe

BaseballGM

04-21-2006, 04:08 PM

Eric

04-21-2006, 10:04 PM

ChrisCavalier

04-22-2006, 09:11 PM

To me, if the goal of having this site is to truely help those interested in game used items, then I believe members should be allowed to voice opinions as to the legitimacy of game used items. The basic issue in collecting is to know, or to have a reasonable certainty of whether the item is as its description states or claims to represent. Those who knowingly attempt to deceive should be held accountable and identified. That's what operation bullpen was all about.
In the words of Joe Pesci in My Cousin Vinny, "There appears to be a great deal of confusion here." This forum does exactly what is mentioned above, allow members to voice their opinions and help people make more informed decisions about the potential legitimacy of 'game-used' items. The issue has to do with the way we approach this objective and the subsequent results we achieve. Let me give you two recent examples of threads on this forum where the rules were followed and compare them to the results on this particular thread.

The first example where the rules were followed involved a Cal Ripen Jr. bat that was claimed to be 'game used' when, in fact, it was not. Please notice how in this thread our members were made aware of the issues with the bat and the seller ended up pulling the item off eBay due to the efforts of those on this forum. This is a textbook example of where forum members were made aware of a suspect item and where the seller, who was misinformed, ended up doing the responsible thing when accurate information was brought to their attention. The seller was not trying to 'deceive' anyone but was rather working off incorrect information (information that was corrected by those within the forum). Here is the thread:

http://www.gameuseduniverse.com/vb_forum/showthread.php?t=2398 (http://www.gameuseduniverse.com/vb_forum/showthread.php?t=2398)

The second example of when the rules were followed involves a retail bat that the seller claimed was 'game used'. Importantly, while following the rules, the members of this forum were made aware of the issues with the bat and the seller has also been contacted with accurate information. While at the time of this posting the seller has yet to respond, it unfortunately appears that the seller in this situation may not be doing the right thing. If that is the case, any 'deceptive' tactics will also be brought to light here in a manner that will be hard for the seller to refute, especially given the seller has been afforded an opportunity to respond. If so, it will also achieve your stated objective that "Those who knowingly attempt to deceive should be held accountable and identified". Here is the thread:

http://www.gameuseduniverse.com/vb_forum/showthread.php?t=2452 (http://www.gameuseduniverse.com/vb_forum/showthread.php?t=2452)

Let's now compare the outcomes of those threads with the outcome of the one here. Unfortunately, in this thread the seller believed he was unjustly accused of doing something deceitful and was not given a chance to respond privately before he felt he was publicly accused of something he felt he didn't do. As a result, the concern of this forum -- the legitimacy of the item and the presentation of information necessary to assist in making an informed decision -- took a back seat to the defensive reaction of a seller (who is a registered member of this forum) who believed that he was unfairly backed into a corner without first being presented with information with which to evaluate his own item. No one was well-served by this turn of events. Empirically speaking, I would have to say I don't think the rules prevent the identification of suspect items or suspect sellers. In fact, I think when followed they will do exactly the opposite.

Lastly, in regards to the latter part of the quote above, I think it is also important to realize that we are not Operation Bullpen and that the URL of this site is not 'auctionpolice.com'. The goal here is to help our members make informed decisions regarding the game used memorabilia hobby...a goal we will continue to make happen in even greater ways as you will soon see.

While I don't know if I can be as effective as Vincent LaGuardia Gambini in My Cousin Vinny, I can only hope that this clears up some of the misperceptions I think exist regarding the forum. That is, we will achieve the greatest benefits in our efforts to help improve the hobby when we challenge what needs to be challenged while also acting responsibly. I also hope this forum will continue to help people such as BaseballGM who, if he does decide to post again, we would gladly welcome back with open arms.

Sincerely,
Christopher Cavalier
CEO - Game Used Universe