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REDS1999
04-13-2006, 04:21 PM
JIM,

THIS QUESTION IS NOT REGARDING ANY SPECIFIC PLAYER, BUT THE SPECIFIC LABELING OF H&B BATS FROM THE 1921 TO 1931 LABELING PERIOD. I AM INTERESTED IN A BAT FROM A PLAYER WHO'S ROOKIE YEAR WAS 1930. THE CENTER LABEL HAS THE 'MADE IN U.S.A.' UNDER THE HILLERICH & BRADSBY LOGO. UNDER THE CENTER OVAL, 'TRADE MARK REG. U.S. PAT. OFF.' APPEARS. THERE IS NO 'POWERIZED' ENGRAVED TO THE RIGHT OF THE OVAL SO I KNOW THE BAT IS NOT FROM LATE 1931 OR BEYOND. THE NAME OF THE PLAYER IS ON THE BARREL WITH WHAT LOOKS TO BE 'TRADE MARK' ENGRAVED BELOW THE PLAYER NAME. AS I LOOK THROUGH THE MASTRONET REFERENCE BOOK FOR BATS, I SEE SOME PICTURES OF H.O.F.'s BATS FROM THIS ERA AND THEY HAVE THE 'TRADE MARK' ENGRAVING ABOVE THE PLAYER'S NAME AND 'REG U.S. PAT OFF' BELOW THE PLAYER NAME. OTHERS HAVE JUST THE 'TRADE MARK' BELOW THE PLAYER'S NAME. STILL OTHERS DON'T HAVE EITHER ENGRAVED. THE MASTRONET BASEBALL BAT DATING GUIDE REALLY DOES NOT MENTION THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THE LABELING ON THE BARRELL THAT I JUST NOTED, ONLY WHAT IS ENGRAVED WITHIN THE CENTER OVAL. COULD YOU POSSIBLY CLARIFY THE BARRELL LABELING OF THIS PERIOD FOR ME? I CERTAINLY APPRECIATE YOUR TIME.

THANKS,
GREG

BoneRubbedBat
04-13-2006, 05:04 PM
Greg,

I'm not Jim, but I may be able to help. There are some small subtleties during the '21-'31 labeling period that may help narrow down your search. I have over a hundred sidewritten bats from that era, and use them for this very purpose. Each centerbrand die was unique (size, font, etc.), thus leaving us with a "fingerprint" to go by. If you can post (or e-mail me) a photo of the centerbrand and barrel markings, along with the exact (to the 1/2 mm or better) measurements of:

- height and width of the centerbrand - measure from the outside of the lines (use a flexible tape measure, not a rigid ruler)
- height and overall width of the "125" in the centerbrand
- height of the first "H" in Hillerich
- height of the "S" in U.S.A.
- height of the "o" in Co.
- distance between the bottom of the first "T" in TRADE MARK REG. U.S. PAT. OFF. and the last "." after OFF.

There are many other variables, but these are the most important to start off with.

Marcus Sevier

BoneRubbedBat
04-13-2006, 05:25 PM
msevier@houston.rr.com

JimCaravello
04-14-2006, 08:12 AM
Hi Greg and Marcus - I have handled just a few bats from this era and I really don't know all the subtle variations. I am familiar with the basic labeling differences, but have not researched the subtle differences you are describing. It sounds as if Marchus has some good knowledge here - also, Bushing and or Taube may be able to help you in this area. Jim

MSpecht
04-14-2006, 10:38 AM
Hi Greg , Jim, Marcus, and all:

Here's some basic information on barrel labeling of the time, but for more detailed information I will defer to Marcus who has an incredible resource with the side-written bats in his possession. This was the basic info used prior to the H & B vault sale which redefined some of the labeling concepts below.

"In general, here were the very basic the guidelines for barrel labeling only:

1922 to 1932: TRADEMARK written above signature
REG. U.S. PAT. OFF. written below signature

1932 to 1936: no writing above or below signature.... this is the most
commonly seen variation during this time period.

mid-1936 through 1940's: GENUINE written above signayure
REG. U. S. PAT. OFF. written below signature

The early 1930's were pretty transitional years in H & B labeling, for instance it is possible that the word GENUINE appeared on the barrel of some professional model bats as early as 1932. Also, the 1922 labeling, may have appeared in late 1921, and some variation of the 1932 labeling as early as late 1931."

As Marcus identifies the center labeling in greater detail, hopefully he will offer additional insight into the barrel labeling as well. Also a good internet source for viewinf numerous bats of this era is at www.leftfieldcollectibles.com (http://www.leftfieldcollectibles.com) and look at the Vintage Bats section of the left hand menu. I believe a direct link is
http://www.sacin.com/lfc/vintagebats/ProductList.aspx[/URL]
Each bat listed can be viewed by clicking on the individual player's name in the left column.


Good Luck in future collecting.

Mike



[URL="http://www.sacin.com/lfc/vintagebats/Product.aspx?id=vb00020"] (http://www.sacin.com/lfc/vintagebats/Product.aspx?id=vb00020)

REDS1999
04-14-2006, 11:32 AM
Mike, Jim, and Marcus,

Thank you all very much for the labeling information, your time, and efforts. This is exactly why this website is so valuable and informative. Thanks again,
Greg

BoneRubbedBat
04-14-2006, 09:40 PM
The stamping on the barrel varies with every signature model. The stamping die used for signature model bats also contains the "Trade Mark" or "Reg. U.S. Pat. Off.", making each one unique. I have not noticed any rhyme or reason why some have the signature only, some have TradeMark above or below, and some have the Reg. U.S. Pat. Off. The vast majority of signature model bats I have utilize only the TradeMark below the signature. I have sidewritten bats from the late teens to the early 1940's with this same barrel labeling. The real fun comes in identifying specific centerbrand dies and comparing them with the sidewriting, giving a rough date range of when that specific die was in use. This comes in handy when dealing with non-sidewritten bats.

The photos on www.leftfieldcollectibles.com (http://www.leftfieldcollectibles.com) are an awesome resource. Art Jaffe is a great guy and easy to work with. He is very accessible and is willing to answer any questions you may have about old bats.

I was able to view an excerpt of Vince Malta's forthcoming book, and I think alot of labeling questions will be clarified when it hits the shelves.


Marcus

REDS1999
04-15-2006, 08:43 PM
Marcus,

Once again, thank you very much for the information. This has certainly helped me in possibly making my first purchase of a vintage 1930 era game used bat.

Greg