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3arod13
02-10-2009, 04:03 PM
Baseball Cheaters (past & Present)

First, I want to make it clear that "cheating is cheating" and I do not condone it, no matter how minor it is.

I read a few posts where comments were made about how other players in the past did many things to give them an edge; used jelly, pine tar, nails, sandpaper, rings, etc. Some comments were made that those type things are part of the game and are ok.

Just curious what you all think.

Regards, Tony

Mr.3000
02-10-2009, 04:06 PM
Cheating is cheating.


Phil Niekro (just one example) is no better than A-Rod. Nor is he any worse.

3arod13
02-10-2009, 04:09 PM
Cheating is cheating.


Phil Niekro (just one example) is no better than A-Rod. Nor is he any worse.

I agree! Shouldn't matter what you do in order to give you an edge over someone else.

Mr.3000
02-10-2009, 04:17 PM
I agree! Shouldn't matter what you do in order to give you an edge over someone else.

Quite possibly why I am not affected by the whole "steroid era" as much as other fans. There have been cheaters in the game from the beginning. I don't see one as being any worse than the other. As much as I don't condone cheating, it is human nature. I don't immediately hate the player. I may dislike their choices, but I can still admire them as players..even if I despise the man.

Perfect example for me...Pete Rose.

Hell of a player. Poor excuse of a man. Just my opinion...and I am a HUGE Pete Rose fan.

3arod13
02-10-2009, 04:18 PM
Quite possibly why I am not affected by the whole "steroid era" as much as other fans. There have been cheaters in the game from the beginning. I don't see one as being any worse than the other. As much as I don't condone cheating, it is human nature. I don't immediately hate the player. I may dislike their choices, but I can still admire them as players..even if I despise the man.

Perfect example for me...Pete Rose.

Hell of a player. Poor excuse of a man. Just my opinion...and I am a HUGE Pete Rose fan.

Well said!

TNTtoys
02-10-2009, 04:21 PM
Gaylord Perry is a Hall of Famer and multiple Cy Young Award winner... yet he is notorious for doctoring baseballs. Apparently cheating is a subjective topic with many varying degrees to it...

godwulf
02-10-2009, 04:25 PM
I heard somebody on the radio this morning talking about Babe Ruth...how his famous fondness for beer might have caused him to be "more relaxed at the plate", giving him an unfair hitting advantage over the guys who chose to play sober. :rolleyes:

Seriously, though, I think it's possible to take the "cheating" things to ridiculous extremes...for example, a fielder who blocks the umpire's view as he traps the ball, and then raises his glove as though he has caught it...he's essentially lying, isn't he? Isn't that cheating, too?

Some folks say (and they may be right) that the difference between all the sandpaper and petroleum jelly, etc, that pitchers have been known to use, and something like steroids, is that with the latter, you're actually altering your body chemistry and, eventually, physiological makeup - becoming something other and stronger than what you otherwise would have been. On the other hand, don't vitamins and dietary supplements do more or less the same thing?

Reading back over this post, I'm surprised that I sound as (almost) sympathetic to the steroid-users as I do, because I don't see my attitude as being that way, at all. I suspect that my distaste for their use, and their negative effect on Baseball's image and on the integrity of its records, may be more visceral than intellectual.

Mr.3000
02-10-2009, 04:28 PM
Gaylord Perry is a Hall of Famer and multiple Cy Young Award winner... yet he is notorious for doctoring baseballs. Apparently cheating is a subjective topic with many varying degrees to it...

Very true. Something I am looking up now.

I found this so far....as far as cheaters in the HOF go....and why, based on their numbers, Bonds, Clemens, Palmeiro, A-Rod and company SHOULD be in the HOF one day.



Whitey Ford (pitcher, Yankees, 1950-67)
http://sportsmed.starwave.com/media/mlb/2000/0820/photo/a_whitey.jpgWhitey Ford got help from mud, gunk and catchers. Ford used his wedding ring to cut the ball, or had catcher Elston Howard put a nice slice in it with a buckle on his shin guard. Ford also planted mud pies around the mound and used them to load the ball. He confessed that when pitching against the Dodgers in the 1963 World Series, "I used enough mud to build a dam." He also threw a "gunk ball," which combined a mixture of baby oil, turpentine, and resin.



















Gaylord Perry (pitcher, Giants, Indians, Rangers, Padres, Yankees, Braves, Mariners, Royals, 1962-1983)
Perry, a Hall-of-Famer, compiled his 314-265 record on the wings of a Vaseline ball. He'd stand on the mound, touching his cap or his sleeve, either loading up the ball or trying to convince batters he was doing so. In 1982, he became one of the very few pitchers to be suspended for doctoring the ball. Gene Tenace, who was Perry's catcher with the Padres, said the ball was sometimes so loaded he couldn't throw it back to the mound. Indians president Gabe Paul defended Perry: "Gaylord is a very honorable man," he said. "He only calls for the spitter when he needs it."












John McGraw (3B, SS, OF, Orioles, Cardinals, Giants, 1891-1906)
In the field, wrote Geoffrey C. Ward and Ken Burns in "Baseball: An Illustrated History," the 155-pound McGraw "held far bigger base runners back by the belt, blocked them, tripped them, spiked them -- and rarely complained when they did the same to him." He was known to grab onto runners belts as they were rounding third, and grab the belt loops of runners tagging up at third. "He uses every low and contemptible method that his erratic brain can conceive to win a play by a dirty trick," wrote one reporter.





There was Phil Niekro as already mentioned....and SO many more.


It's far too late to start keeping guys out of the HOF for cheating.

suicide_squeeze
02-10-2009, 04:33 PM
Cheating is cheating.


Phil Niekro (just one example) is no better than A-Rod. Nor is he any worse.

I couldn't disagree more.

I simply can't understand how ANYONE can feel this way, about the use of steroids and the such.

Well....there is one explanation.

You guys just don't know how much of an advantage they truly give you.

Look......steroids and other PED's turn an average player with mediocre ability into a lightning quick, super strong cartoon character superhero with reflexes and fire-power to leap small buildings in a single bound.

Players that have NOTHING more than warning track power are now popping the same balls hit on steroids 1o rows deep into the seats. Their batting average, RBI, power numbers......ALL go up SUBSTANTIALLY, as they ruin the record books.

FIGURE it out, people. Just please....THINK about it. Do any of you really believe that "doctoring a baseball" with saliva, or a small emory board, is going to make THAT much of a difference in a guy's career???

But having faster muscle-twitch reactive time, super strength, and elastic muscles equipped with incredible rebuilding capabilities.......essentially eliminating having a "bad day" (like from a hangover, or just being tired from an extra inning game the day before)....... C'MON people!!?? THINK about the advantages steroids give a baseball player.

And if that doesn't convince you, go watch a replay of the entire 1998 baseball season.

reed1216
02-10-2009, 04:37 PM
I think there is a distinction between cheating and acting in a manner that compromises the integrity of the sport. I think there is a difference between Phil Niekro's antics or Sammy Sosa corking a bat compared to the institutional racism that was baseball's culture until 1947 or the rampant use of illegal performance enhancing drugs during the 1980s onward.

Niekro and Sosa (as far as corking bats in concerned) broke the rules and were punished and then reinstated with little to no long term backlash. When I was a kid, it was fun to try to catch Niekro doctoring the ball, while watching games on tv. My dad used to tell me off the spitball pitchers from his day and before. Niekro seemed to represent a throwback to those times and was considered a fan favorite. When Joe Niekro was caught with an emory board in his glove, it was hysterical. Yes, these acts were cheating, but to say they were as serious to the culture and long term standing of baseball as institutional racism and the rampant use of illegal performance enhancing drugs is absurd.

I do agree that what a player does on the field should matter far more than what he does off it, this steroid thing is pretty scary to me. There is nobody who is currently playing in the bigs that isn't a suspect now. Given that there were over 100 players on this list of dirty tests from 2003 is a clear communication to our children that the big leaguers do it, so why shouldn't kids?

I don't dislike ARod. In fact, I used to own one of his Rangers jerseys. I was lucky enough to sell it before this all hit the fan, but I didn't get so lucky on a Clemens shirt that I paid big bucks for, just prior to the release of the Mitchell Report. Baseball now struggles with being a culture of overpaid, juiced up primadonnas and that's too bad. However, even that isn't as bad as keeping african americans out of the sport entirely for over 50 years.

As far as I'm concerned, baseball is still a great game with great players. ARod is among them. However, to lump him in with a guy like Niekro doesn't work for me. Apples and oranges.

jetersbatboy
02-10-2009, 04:37 PM
I am not sure who first said this, but it must have come from someone in sports! "If you aint cheating you aint trying" I think this sums it up!
http://www.nfl.com/videos?videoId=09000d5d8023a94b

suicide_squeeze
02-10-2009, 04:43 PM
I heard somebody on the radio this morning talking about Babe Ruth...how his famous fondness for beer might have caused him to be "more relaxed at the plate", giving him an unfair hitting advantage over the guys who chose to play sober. :rolleyes:

Seriously, though, I think it's possible to take the "cheating" things to ridiculous extremes...for example, a fielder who blocks the umpire's view as he traps the ball, and then raises his glove as though he has caught it...he's essentially lying, isn't he? Isn't that cheating, too?

Some folks say (and they may be right) that the difference between all the sandpaper and petroleum jelly, etc, that pitchers have been known to use, and something like steroids, is that with the latter, you're actually altering your body chemistry and, eventually, physiological makeup - becoming something other and stronger than what you otherwise would have been. On the other hand, don't vitamins and dietary supplements do more or less the same thing?

Reading back over this post, I'm surprised that I sound as (almost) sympathetic to the steroid-users as I do, because I don't see my attitude as being that way, at all. I suspect that my distaste for their use, and their negative effect on Baseball's image and on the integrity of its records, may be more visceral than intellectual.

godwulf,

A lot of good points, but remember one thing.

You are comparing, as you mentioned yourself, "incidentals" that have all been accepted as part of baseball which is categorized as "cheating". And yes, there are different levels.

But STERIODS are a whole, different, enormously devastaing EFFECT on the outcome of the game played......it isn't even fair to talk about it in the same breath as the others.

No, vitamins and dietary suppliments are NOT the same types of things, and they do NOT do the same thing for one's body. Trying to equate steroids to the same level of cheating to the other "givens" in baseball cheating over the years is just simply wrong.

That's would be like going to watch a greyhound race at a track, only to find out they dogs will be replaced with Indy cars.

WadeInBmore
02-10-2009, 04:51 PM
I know someone already said Whitey Ford, just wanted to provide the link to his game used glove that sold in auction. The word "cheat" is written on it and a "tack" was installed onto it LOL.

http://hugginsandscott.com/pl/11207_ford_glove.jpg

godwulf
02-10-2009, 04:55 PM
...steroids and other PED's turn an average player with mediocre ability into a lightning quick, super strong cartoon character superhero with reflexes and fire-power to leap small buildings in a single bound.

Players that have NOTHING more than warning track power are now popping the same balls hit on steroids 1o rows deep into the seats. Their batting average, RBI, power numbers......ALL go up SUBSTANTIALLY, as they ruin the record books.

I assumed that this post was written tongue-in-cheek...but your subsequent post makes me wonder how much of this you actually believe.

suicide_squeeze
02-10-2009, 05:05 PM
I think there is a distinction between cheating and acting in a manner that compromises the integrity of the sport. I think there is a difference between Phil Niekro's antics or Sammy Sosa corking a bat compared to the institutional racism that was baseball's culture until 1947 or the rampant use of illegal performance enhancing drugs during the 1980s onward.

Niekro and Sosa (as far as corking bats in concerned) broke the rules and were punished and then reinstated with little to no long term backlash. When I was a kid, it was fun to try to catch Niekro doctoring the ball, while watching games on tv. My dad used to tell me off the spitball pitchers from his day and before. Niekro seemed to represent a throwback to those times and was considered a fan favorite. When Joe Niekro was caught with an emory board in his glove, it was hysterical. Yes, these acts were cheating, but to say they were as serious to the culture and long term standing of baseball as institutional racism and the rampant use of illegal performance enhancing drugs is absurd.

I do agree that what a player does on the field should matter far more than what he does off it, this steroid thing is pretty scary to me. There is nobody who is currently playing in the bigs that isn't a suspect now. Given that there were over 100 players on this list of dirty tests from 2003 is a clear communication to our children that the big leaguers do it, so why shouldn't kids?

I don't dislike ARod. In fact, I used to own one of his Rangers jerseys. I was lucky enough to sell it before this all hit the fan, but I didn't get so lucky on a Clemens shirt that I paid big bucks for, just prior to the release of the Mitchell Report. Baseball now struggles with being a culture of overpaid, juiced up primadonnas and that's too bad. However, even that isn't as bad as keeping african americans out of the sport entirely for over 50 years.

As far as I'm concerned, baseball is still a great game with great players. ARod is among them. However, to lump him in with a guy like Niekro doesn't work for me. Apples and oranges.

Thank GOD......I was starting to wonder if this was all just a bad dream.

THANK YOU reed1216 stepping up to state the obvious.

Mr.3000
02-10-2009, 05:21 PM
Great thing about opinions, we're all entitled.


I stand by my opinion that cheating is cheating...no matter how you slice it. I don't see "levels" of cheating. I see it as one big ball of ...cheating. It ruins the integrity of the game all the same.

Whitey's vaseline surely affected his numbers. Niekro's emery board surely affected his, Sammy's corked bat surely affected his (not to mention his possible steroid use).....just as A-rods (and others) steroid use affected theirs.

To try and seperate cheating into many or multiple "levels"...is to merely look to nitpick and pit todays cheaters against yesterdays cheaters. Sorry, I don't and won't play that game.

Again....cheating is cheating. It's all one and the same.

The game has had it's dark moments and has survived. It will survive this. Ruth was an alcoholic womanizer, Cobb was an abusive racist, there was the 1919 Blacksox scandal, the strike of '94....and so many more before, inbetween and after. I am sure this won't be the last dark moment in our sport.


It's time for a new commissioner, a stronger drug policy that is actually enforced and stiffer penalties for those that break baseball rules....no matter the rule, no matter the player.

reed1216
02-10-2009, 05:29 PM
I agree that cheating is cheating. I also believe a felony is a felony. However, 1st degree murder is a more severe felony than possession of drug paraphernalia. Likewise, abusing illegal performance enhancing drugs is a more severe form of cheating than corking a bat.

If you neglect to accept this principle, prisons would be filled with inmates serving life sentences for possession of drug paraphernalia.

Just my two cents, although I respect all of the opinions expressed here.

http://community.webshots.com/user/Reed97

Mr.3000
02-10-2009, 05:36 PM
I agree that cheating is cheating. I also believe a felony is a felony. However, 1st degree murder is a more severe felony than possession of drug paraphernalia. Likewise, abusing illegal performance enhancing drugs is a more severe form of cheating than corking a bat.

If you neglect to accept this principle, prisons would be filled with inmates serving life sentences for possession of drug paraphernalia.

Just my two cents, although I respect all of the opinions expressed here.

http://community.webshots.com/user/Reed97

LOL I knew it was coming...the old "Murder is not the same as.." argument. ;)


I can argue that "cheating" and "felonies" are apples and oranges and we can dance this dance all night. Mail fraud is different from online fraud and carried different penalties. It's still fraud. Strong armed robbery is more severe than armed robbery which is more severe than B&E and carries a varying penalty. It's still armed robbery.

I am not diving into semantics here.

Cheating is cheating. Baseball has always had and more than likely will always have cheaters....one form or another.

reed1216
02-10-2009, 05:39 PM
Cheating is cheating. Baseball has always had and more than likely will always have cheaters....one form or another.

I do agree with that!!

xpress34
02-10-2009, 05:45 PM
This issue was brought up on another site - Sports Card Forum (SCF) - a while back and a few other issues were 'thrown on the fire' as far as what you consider cheating - or the various levels and such at which it is done.

Quite a few people brought up the distinction that has already been made here between 'doctoring' a ball / bat and 'doctoring' ones own body.

They are definately 'Apples and Oranges' in how they affect the game and it's records.

One of the things that came up (and I thought it was pretty ludicrous) was that Tiger Woods is a cheat at golf because he 'doctored' his body having Lasik - and then admitted that he had never seen the course or the greens as clearly until after he had the Lasik surgery. Is that cheating?

Base on the 'assumption' of few that called that cheating, it begged me to ask the question - does that mean everyone who has ever had Tommy John surgery or the like is a cheater since they may have also had a previously missed bone spur of whatever removed at the same time giving them more flexability?

Or what about Aaron Cook of the Rockies who almost died on the mound due to blood clots caused by a rib pinching a vein. The doctors removed the rib (on his pitching side mind you) and now Cook says his has better flexibility and better mechanics than ever before. Is that cheating? (Note - a few pitchers have actually discussed having that same rib bone removed from their pitching side after Cook in oreder to have better mechanics and such!?!?)

I think the answer to the above questions is NO, it's not cheating. It's a viable (or in Cook's case LIFE Necessary) operation to fix something that's BROKEN.

But Steroids aren't being used to fix something that's BROKEN, they are being used to either SUPERCHARGE an existing Star talent or at the least UPGRADE a mediocre talent to Star talent level.

As far as the comparing 'spitballs', 'cutballs', etc to Steroids use, that's just outrageous... for one thing, the 'art of cheating' or deception used to get a spitball or whatever is something that can be exposed IMMEDIATELY on the diamond and dealt with swiftly (expulsion form the game) on the spot. (i.e. Niekro's famous 'fluttering emory board' or A-Rod's <I'm really not piling on him here> 'girly swat' at Bronson Arroyo in the ALCS in 2004. They were both immediately DETECTABLE and punishment was swift and instantaneous.

STEROIDS were designed (and used) to give an UNDETECTABLE edge to a player w/ no punishment, but all the rewards.

And now players who get caught (for the most part) are trying to play it off - they weren't 'cheating', they were trying to get an 'edge' on the competition...

That said, I'm waiting to see who Tejada is about to 'out' in his plea deal when he goes to court...

All the best -

Chris

xpress34
02-10-2009, 05:52 PM
Sammy's corked bat surely affected his (not to mention his possible steroid use).

I personally think Sammy juiced - Is aw him as rookie in Texas and his body took the same transformation as Bonds - skinny rail kid becomes the Incredible Hulk...

But as far as Sammy's corked bat - and in his defense - MLB scanned over 80 something GU bats of Sosa's in private collections, the HOF, museums, etc and found cork in NONE of them.

While (again) I don't doubt Sammy juiced, I do believe he grabbed the wrong bat that day - an 'exhibition bat' used for BP to put on a show for the early fans...

Just my .02

- Chris

Fraudfinder!!
02-10-2009, 06:08 PM
Great thing about opinions, we're all entitled.


I stand by my opinion that cheating is cheating...no matter how you slice it. I don't see "levels" of cheating. I see it as one big ball of ...cheating. It ruins the integrity of the game all the same.

Whitey's vaseline surely affected his numbers. Niekro's emery board surely affected his, Sammy's corked bat surely affected his (not to mention his possible steroid use).....just as A-rods (and others) steroid use affected theirs.

To try and seperate cheating into many or multiple "levels"...is to merely look to nitpick and pit todays cheaters against yesterdays cheaters. Sorry, I don't and won't play that game.

Again....cheating is cheating. It's all one and the same.

The game has had it's dark moments and has survived. It will survive this. Ruth was an alcoholic womanizer, Cobb was an abusive racist, there was the 1919 Blacksox scandal, the strike of '94....and so many more before, inbetween and after. I am sure this won't be the last dark moment in our sport.


It's time for a new commissioner, a stronger drug policy that is actually enforced and stiffer penalties for those that break baseball rules....no matter the rule, no matter the player.
George Brett??????

Mr.3000
02-10-2009, 06:12 PM
George Brett??????


My personal opinion is that instance...I assume you are talking about the "pine tar HR"....is very subjective. Did he put too much pine tar to cheat...or did he just put too much pine tar. I don't think he cheated. I think he just got crazy with the pine tar. I don't recall there being a similar instance with him before that day or after.

David
02-10-2009, 07:28 PM
19th century HOFer King Kelly would run from first to third if the umpire wasn't paying attention.

flaco1801
02-10-2009, 08:39 PM
brady anderson hit 50 homers... mays would have hit 100

TNTtoys
02-10-2009, 10:54 PM
But as far as Sammy's corked bat - and in his defense - MLB scanned over 80 something GU bats of Sosa's in private collections, the HOF, museums, etc and found cork in NONE of them.

While (again) I don't doubt Sammy juiced, I do believe he grabbed the wrong bat that day - an 'exhibition bat' used for BP to put on a show for the early fans...

Just my .02

- Chris

Chris,

Thank you for adding this. I was about to do the same when I read thru the thread until I saw your comments. I agree with you completely & believe Sosa made an honest mistake here.

Nick

Rob L
02-10-2009, 11:05 PM
Ty Cobb, an incredible A-hole, nearly thrown out of baseball by Landis for throwing/betting on a game with Tris Speaker. Hell of a player though!

Nathan
02-11-2009, 12:04 AM
Hal Chase was first accused of throwing games in 1908. He was involved in baseball for quite a few more years after that as a player and manager in the National League.

With the Giants, he also managed to corrupt Heinie Zimmerman (who, truth be told, apparently just needed a gentle nudge to the dark side).

suicide_squeeze
02-11-2009, 12:21 AM
This issue was brought up on another site - Sports Card Forum (SCF) - a while back and a few other issues were 'thrown on the fire' as far as what you consider cheating - or the various levels and such at which it is done.

Quite a few people brought up the distinction that has already been made here between 'doctoring' a ball / bat and 'doctoring' ones own body.

They are definately 'Apples and Oranges' in how they affect the game and it's records.

One of the things that came up (and I thought it was pretty ludicrous) was that Tiger Woods is a cheat at golf because he 'doctored' his body having Lasik - and then admitted that he had never seen the course or the greens as clearly until after he had the Lasik surgery. Is that cheating?

Base on the 'assumption' of few that called that cheating, it begged me to ask the question - does that mean everyone who has ever had Tommy John surgery or the like is a cheater since they may have also had a previously missed bone spur of whatever removed at the same time giving them more flexability?

Or what about Aaron Cook of the Rockies who almost died on the mound due to blood clots caused by a rib pinching a vein. The doctors removed the rib (on his pitching side mind you) and now Cook says his has better flexibility and better mechanics than ever before. Is that cheating? (Note - a few pitchers have actually discussed having that same rib bone removed from their pitching side after Cook in oreder to have better mechanics and such!?!?)

I think the answer to the above questions is NO, it's not cheating. It's a viable (or in Cook's case LIFE Necessary) operation to fix something that's BROKEN.

But Steroids aren't being used to fix something that's BROKEN, they are being used to either SUPERCHARGE an existing Star talent or at the least UPGRADE a mediocre talent to Star talent level.

As far as the comparing 'spitballs', 'cutballs', etc to Steroids use, that's just outrageous... for one thing, the 'art of cheating' or deception used to get a spitball or whatever is something that can be exposed IMMEDIATELY on the diamond and dealt with swiftly (expulsion form the game) on the spot. (i.e. Niekro's famous 'fluttering emory board' or A-Rod's <I'm really not piling on him here> 'girly swat' at Bronson Arroyo in the ALCS in 2004. They were both immediately DETECTABLE and punishment was swift and instantaneous.

STEROIDS were designed (and used) to give an UNDETECTABLE edge to a player w/ no punishment, but all the rewards.

And now players who get caught (for the most part) are trying to play it off - they weren't 'cheating', they were trying to get an 'edge' on the competition...

That said, I'm waiting to see who Tejada is about to 'out' in his plea deal when he goes to court...

All the best -

Chris

Chris,

Awesome post.

I just wish (and I'll refrain from naming names) there were a few more participants here to had the common sense you do to understand this simple relationship.....or should I say lack thereof. It's absolutely rediculous to "group" all the forms of minor infractions mentioned......in with steroid use.

Night and day.

Mr.3000
02-11-2009, 12:41 AM
Chris,

Awesome post.

I just wish (and I'll refrain from naming names) there were a few more participants here to had the common sense you do to understand this simple relationship.....or should I say lack thereof. It's absolutely rediculous to "group" all the forms of minor infractions mentioned......in with steroid use.

Night and day.




Cheating is cheating. Like I said, we can dance this dance all night. Atleast I have common sense enough not to be 49 and call people morons, retards and idiots to have a rational debate. ;) Thanks skippy.

Mr.3000
02-11-2009, 12:45 AM
On that note..I'm going to bow out of this conversation. I know when to walk away before I let someone else's arrogance get the best of me...and I wind up looking like the bad guy. Especially when it's online. Not worth my time. I don't get baited by internet tough guy routines.

godwulf
02-11-2009, 08:54 AM
I just wish (and I'll refrain from naming names) there were a few more participants here to had the common sense you do to understand this simple relationship.....or should I say lack thereof. It's absolutely rediculous to "group" all the forms of minor infractions mentioned......in with steroid use. Night and day.

Night and day, apples and oranges...so we have been told, several times now. When it comes to making an assertion, however, repetition doesn't equal support; if you see an intrinsic difference between performance-enhancing drugs and every other kind of activity or behavior mentioned in this thread, that's great - good for you. Quite frankly, you haven't presented anything approaching as clear and convincing a case as you seem to believe you have.

earlywynnfan
02-11-2009, 08:18 PM
Cheating is cheating.


Phil Niekro (just one example) is no better than A-Rod. Nor is he any worse.


Forgive my ignorance, but what did Phil Niekro ever do??

Ken
earlywynnfan5@hotmail.com

earlywynnfan
02-11-2009, 08:20 PM
Cheating is cheating.


Phil Niekro (just one example) is no better than A-Rod. Nor is he any worse.


Since someone mentioned George Brett, is he any better than AROD, with his illegal bat?

Ken
earlywynnfan5@hotmail.com

Mr.3000
02-11-2009, 08:29 PM
Forgive my ignorance, but what did Phil Niekro ever do??

Ken
earlywynnfan5@hotmail.com


Not saying Phil didn't doctor the ball...but I meant Joe...and the emery board incident.

TFig27
02-11-2009, 08:33 PM
Not saying Phil didn't doctor the ball...but I meant Joe...and the emery board incident.

I received this from Joe about a month before he passed.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v381/tfig27/IMG_1647small.jpg

Sincityson
02-12-2009, 12:42 AM
If anyone is in the mood for some reading, there's a good book called the "Cheaters Guide to Baseball" that I'd say is worth buying:

http://espn.go.com/photo/2007/0813/pg2_cheatersguide_300.jpg

David
02-12-2009, 12:59 AM
All cheating is not of the same magnitude, just as not all crimes are of the not of the same magnitude. Armed robbery and jay walking are each one crime. For a long time, throwing games and using steroids have been the sports world equivalent of armed robbery. Players know this, which is why folks like McGwire, Bonds, Clemens and Palmeiro bend over backwards not to admit usage, even though the admission would result in no suspension or other punishment.

3arod13
02-12-2009, 06:33 PM
Some of us at work were talking about cheaters in sports today. One person made the comment, "Many do the same thing in the work place to get ahead. Fighting for that position, promotion, and pay raise. The only differrence is, we do it and only those at work know about it. Not the whole world like when it happens in sports."

No matter where it's done, it's still not right.