Baseball Cheaters (Past & Present)

[3arod13]

Baseball Cheaters (past & Present)

First, I want to make it clear that "cheating is cheating" and I do not condone it, no matter how minor it is.

I read a few posts where comments were made about how other players in the past did many things to give them an edge; used jelly, pine tar, nails, sandpaper, rings, etc. Some comments were made that those type things are part of the game and are ok.

Just curious what you all think.

Regards, Tony

[Mr.3000]

Re: Baseball Cheaters (Past & Present)

Cheating is cheating.


Phil Niekro (just one example) is no better than A-Rod. Nor is he any worse.

[3arod13]

Re: Baseball Cheaters (Past & Present)

Cheating is cheating.


Phil Niekro (just one example) is no better than A-Rod. Nor is he any worse.

I agree! Shouldn't matter what you do in order to give you an edge over someone else.

[Mr.3000]

Re: Baseball Cheaters (Past & Present)

I agree! Shouldn't matter what you do in order to give you an edge over someone else.

Quite possibly why I am not affected by the whole "steroid era" as much as other fans. There have been cheaters in the game from the beginning. I don't see one as being any worse than the other. As much as I don't condone cheating, it is human nature. I don't immediately hate the player. I may dislike their choices, but I can still admire them as players..even if I despise the man.

Perfect example for me...Pete Rose.

Hell of a player. Poor excuse of a man. Just my opinion...and I am a HUGE Pete Rose fan.

[3arod13]

Re: Baseball Cheaters (Past & Present)

Quite possibly why I am not affected by the whole "steroid era" as much as other fans. There have been cheaters in the game from the beginning. I don't see one as being any worse than the other. As much as I don't condone cheating, it is human nature. I don't immediately hate the player. I may dislike their choices, but I can still admire them as players..even if I despise the man.

Perfect example for me...Pete Rose.

Hell of a player. Poor excuse of a man. Just my opinion...and I am a HUGE Pete Rose fan.

Well said!

[TNTtoys]

Re: Baseball Cheaters (Past & Present)

Gaylord Perry is a Hall of Famer and multiple Cy Young Award winner... yet he is notorious for doctoring baseballs. Apparently cheating is a subjective topic with many varying degrees to it...

[godwulf]

Re: Baseball Cheaters (Past & Present)

I heard somebody on the radio this morning talking about Babe Ruth...how his famous fondness for beer might have caused him to be "more relaxed at the plate", giving him an unfair hitting advantage over the guys who chose to play sober.

Seriously, though, I think it's possible to take the "cheating" things to ridiculous extremes...for example, a fielder who blocks the umpire's view as he traps the ball, and then raises his glove as though he has caught it...he's essentially lying, isn't he? Isn't that cheating, too?

Some folks say (and they may be right) that the difference between all the sandpaper and petroleum jelly, etc, that pitchers have been known to use, and something like steroids, is that with the latter, you're actually altering your body chemistry and, eventually, physiological makeup - becoming something other and stronger than what you otherwise would have been. On the other hand, don't vitamins and dietary supplements do more or less the same thing?

Reading back over this post, I'm surprised that I sound as (almost) sympathetic to the steroid-users as I do, because I don't see my attitude as being that way, at all. I suspect that my distaste for their use, and their negative effect on Baseball's image and on the integrity of its records, may be more visceral than intellectual.

[Mr.3000]

Re: Baseball Cheaters (Past & Present)

Gaylord Perry is a Hall of Famer and multiple Cy Young Award winner... yet he is notorious for doctoring baseballs. Apparently cheating is a subjective topic with many varying degrees to it...

Very true. Something I am looking up now.

I found this so far....as far as cheaters in the HOF go....and why, based on their numbers, Bonds, Clemens, Palmeiro, A-Rod and company SHOULD be in the HOF one day.



Whitey Ford (pitcher, Yankees, 1950-67)
Whitey Ford got help from mud, gunk and catchers. Ford used his wedding ring to cut the ball, or had catcher Elston Howard put a nice slice in it with a buckle on his shin guard. Ford also planted mud pies around the mound and used them to load the ball. He confessed that when pitching against the Dodgers in the 1963 World Series, "I used enough mud to build a dam." He also threw a "gunk ball," which combined a mixture of baby oil, turpentine, and resin.



















Gaylord Perry (pitcher, Giants, Indians, Rangers, Padres, Yankees, Braves, Mariners, Royals, 1962-1983)
Perry, a Hall-of-Famer, compiled his 314-265 record on the wings of a Vaseline ball. He'd stand on the mound, touching his cap or his sleeve, either loading up the ball or trying to convince batters he was doing so. In 1982, he became one of the very few pitchers to be suspended for doctoring the ball. Gene Tenace, who was Perry's catcher with the Padres, said the ball was sometimes so loaded he couldn't throw it back to the mound. Indians president Gabe Paul defended Perry: "Gaylord is a very honorable man," he said. "He only calls for the spitter when he needs it."












John McGraw (3B, SS, OF, Orioles, Cardinals, Giants, 1891-1906)
In the field, wrote Geoffrey C. Ward and Ken Burns in "Baseball: An Illustrated History," the 155-pound McGraw "held far bigger base runners back by the belt, blocked them, tripped them, spiked them -- and rarely complained when they did the same to him." He was known to grab onto runners belts as they were rounding third, and grab the belt loops of runners tagging up at third. "He uses every low and contemptible method that his erratic brain can conceive to win a play by a dirty trick," wrote one reporter.





There was Phil Niekro as already mentioned....and SO many more.


It's far too late to start keeping guys out of the HOF for cheating.

[suicide_squeeze]

Re: Baseball Cheaters (Past & Present)

Cheating is cheating.


Phil Niekro (just one example) is no better than A-Rod. Nor is he any worse.

I couldn't disagree more.

I simply can't understand how ANYONE can feel this way, about the use of steroids and the such.

Well....there is one explanation.

You guys just don't know how much of an advantage they truly give you.

Look......steroids and other PED's turn an average player with mediocre ability into a lightning quick, super strong cartoon character superhero with reflexes and fire-power to leap small buildings in a single bound.

Players that have NOTHING more than warning track power are now popping the same balls hit on steroids 1o rows deep into the seats. Their batting average, RBI, power numbers......ALL go up SUBSTANTIALLY, as they ruin the record books.

FIGURE it out, people. Just please....THINK about it. Do any of you really believe that "doctoring a baseball" with saliva, or a small emory board, is going to make THAT much of a difference in a guy's career???

But having faster muscle-twitch reactive time, super strength, and elastic muscles equipped with incredible rebuilding capabilities.......essentially eliminating having a "bad day" (like from a hangover, or just being tired from an extra inning game the day before)....... C'MON people!!?? THINK about the advantages steroids give a baseball player.

And if that doesn't convince you, go watch a replay of the entire 1998 baseball season.

[reed1216]

Re: Baseball Cheaters (Past & Present)

I think there is a distinction between cheating and acting in a manner that compromises the integrity of the sport. I think there is a difference between Phil Niekro's antics or Sammy Sosa corking a bat compared to the institutional racism that was baseball's culture until 1947 or the rampant use of illegal performance enhancing drugs during the 1980s onward.

Niekro and Sosa (as far as corking bats in concerned) broke the rules and were punished and then reinstated with little to no long term backlash. When I was a kid, it was fun to try to catch Niekro doctoring the ball, while watching games on tv. My dad used to tell me off the spitball pitchers from his day and before. Niekro seemed to represent a throwback to those times and was considered a fan favorite. When Joe Niekro was caught with an emory board in his glove, it was hysterical. Yes, these acts were cheating, but to say they were as serious to the culture and long term standing of baseball as institutional racism and the rampant use of illegal performance enhancing drugs is absurd.

I do agree that what a player does on the field should matter far more than what he does off it, this steroid thing is pretty scary to me. There is nobody who is currently playing in the bigs that isn't a suspect now. Given that there were over 100 players on this list of dirty tests from 2003 is a clear communication to our children that the big leaguers do it, so why shouldn't kids?

I don't dislike ARod. In fact, I used to own one of his Rangers jerseys. I was lucky enough to sell it before this all hit the fan, but I didn't get so lucky on a Clemens shirt that I paid big bucks for, just prior to the release of the Mitchell Report. Baseball now struggles with being a culture of overpaid, juiced up primadonnas and that's too bad. However, even that isn't as bad as keeping african americans out of the sport entirely for over 50 years.

As far as I'm concerned, baseball is still a great game with great players. ARod is among them. However, to lump him in with a guy like Niekro doesn't work for me. Apples and oranges.

[jetersbatboy]

Re: Baseball Cheaters (Past & Present)

I am not sure who first said this, but it must have come from someone in sports! "If you aint cheating you aint trying" I think this sums it up!

http://www.nfl.com/videos?videoId=09000d5d8023a94b

[suicide_squeeze]

Re: Baseball Cheaters (Past & Present)

I heard somebody on the radio this morning talking about Babe Ruth...how his famous fondness for beer might have caused him to be "more relaxed at the plate", giving him an unfair hitting advantage over the guys who chose to play sober.

Seriously, though, I think it's possible to take the "cheating" things to ridiculous extremes...for example, a fielder who blocks the umpire's view as he traps the ball, and then raises his glove as though he has caught it...he's essentially lying, isn't he? Isn't that cheating, too?

Some folks say (and they may be right) that the difference between all the sandpaper and petroleum jelly, etc, that pitchers have been known to use, and something like steroids, is that with the latter, you're actually altering your body chemistry and, eventually, physiological makeup - becoming something other and stronger than what you otherwise would have been. On the other hand, don't vitamins and dietary supplements do more or less the same thing?

Reading back over this post, I'm surprised that I sound as (almost) sympathetic to the steroid-users as I do, because I don't see my attitude as being that way, at all. I suspect that my distaste for their use, and their negative effect on Baseball's image and on the integrity of its records, may be more visceral than intellectual.

godwulf,

A lot of good points, but remember one thing.

You are comparing, as you mentioned yourself, "incidentals" that have all been accepted as part of baseball which is categorized as "cheating". And yes, there are different levels.

But STERIODS are a whole, different, enormously devastaing EFFECT on the outcome of the game played......it isn't even fair to talk about it in the same breath as the others.

No, vitamins and dietary suppliments are NOT the same types of things, and they do NOT do the same thing for one's body. Trying to equate steroids to the same level of cheating to the other "givens" in baseball cheating over the years is just simply wrong.

That's would be like going to watch a greyhound race at a track, only to find out they dogs will be replaced with Indy cars.

[WadeInBmore]

Re: Baseball Cheaters (Past & Present)

I know someone already said Whitey Ford, just wanted to provide the link to his game used glove that sold in auction. The word "cheat" is written on it and a "tack" was installed onto it LOL.

http://hugginsandscott.com/pl/11207_ford_glove.jpg

[godwulf]

Re: Baseball Cheaters (Past & Present)

...steroids and other PED's turn an average player with mediocre ability into a lightning quick, super strong cartoon character superhero with reflexes and fire-power to leap small buildings in a single bound.

Players that have NOTHING more than warning track power are now popping the same balls hit on steroids 1o rows deep into the seats. Their batting average, RBI, power numbers......ALL go up SUBSTANTIALLY, as they ruin the record books.

I assumed that this post was written tongue-in-cheek...but your subsequent post makes me wonder how much of this you actually believe.

[suicide_squeeze]

Re: Baseball Cheaters (Past & Present)

I think there is a distinction between cheating and acting in a manner that compromises the integrity of the sport. I think there is a difference between Phil Niekro's antics or Sammy Sosa corking a bat compared to the institutional racism that was baseball's culture until 1947 or the rampant use of illegal performance enhancing drugs during the 1980s onward.

Niekro and Sosa (as far as corking bats in concerned) broke the rules and were punished and then reinstated with little to no long term backlash. When I was a kid, it was fun to try to catch Niekro doctoring the ball, while watching games on tv. My dad used to tell me off the spitball pitchers from his day and before. Niekro seemed to represent a throwback to those times and was considered a fan favorite. When Joe Niekro was caught with an emory board in his glove, it was hysterical. Yes, these acts were cheating, but to say they were as serious to the culture and long term standing of baseball as institutional racism and the rampant use of illegal performance enhancing drugs is absurd.

I do agree that what a player does on the field should matter far more than what he does off it, this steroid thing is pretty scary to me. There is nobody who is currently playing in the bigs that isn't a suspect now. Given that there were over 100 players on this list of dirty tests from 2003 is a clear communication to our children that the big leaguers do it, so why shouldn't kids?

I don't dislike ARod. In fact, I used to own one of his Rangers jerseys. I was lucky enough to sell it before this all hit the fan, but I didn't get so lucky on a Clemens shirt that I paid big bucks for, just prior to the release of the Mitchell Report. Baseball now struggles with being a culture of overpaid, juiced up primadonnas and that's too bad. However, even that isn't as bad as keeping african americans out of the sport entirely for over 50 years.

As far as I'm concerned, baseball is still a great game with great players. ARod is among them. However, to lump him in with a guy like Niekro doesn't work for me. Apples and oranges.

Thank GOD......I was starting to wonder if this was all just a bad dream.

THANK YOU reed1216 stepping up to state the obvious.