How OFF-field Performance Affects Memorabilia Prices

[kingjammy24]

understandably, some people here have lamented all of the threads about off-field player antics. it got me wondering about how off-field behavior influences, if at all, the value of a player's game-used items.

what's the litmus test for determining if and how a player's off-field behavior will negatively impact the value of their items?

you've got josh hamilton whose former drug habit actually seems to have increased the value of his items because now there's a story of redemption behind it all. rather than simply being a good player, now he's the comeback kid. the history of professional sports is filled with a littany of racists, drunkards, adulterers, homophobes, and otherwise surly jerks whose off-field behavior doesn't seem to have affected the price of their items. magic johnson's HIV status doesn't seem to have impacted anything. willie mays' items haven't suffered in the least from methamphetamine use during his playing days. items from denny mclain, mickey mantle, paul molitor, billy martin, wade boggs still fetch a good premium. noone even remembers molitor's raging coke habit in the 80s. if a shoeless joe jackson jersey surfaced, i don't think it would suffer in the least for his involvement in throwing a Series. i don't think pete rose's gambling affected the price of his items.

yet then you've got oj simpson whose items have obviously fallen (despite technically having received a "not guilty" verdict in the murder trial). you've got michael vick whose off-field activities have obviously hit the value of items tremendously. darryl strawberry and dwight gooden aren't on the steroid radar yet their long history of troublemaking seems to have affected the value of their items. ditto for albert belle.

non-performance-related drug habits, adultery, gambling, and drunkeness seem to be ok whereas murder, dog fighting, and simply being albert belle seem to be unacceptable. i'm curious where and how collectors draw the line.

rudy.

[jetersbatboy]

To me it should have no effect. Like OJ as a player he was one of the best ever and no one can argue that fact. As a person he was, lets just say a man who should never be idolized or respected again. People confuse Pro Athlete with Heros and Idols, there not. People like Tony (3AROD13) who is veteran, The police, and Firefighters. Those are true heros and Idols. I think Sir Charles said it the best "we are not role models". I collect Ichiro because he a great ball player, not because what he does off the field.

[Dewey2007]

yet then you've got oj simpson whose items have obviously fallen (despite technically having received a "not guilty" verdict in the murder trial). you've got michael vick whose off-field activities have obviously hit the value of items tremendously. darryl strawberry and dwight gooden aren't on the steroid radar yet their long history of troublemaking seems to have affected the value of their items. ditto for albert belle.

non-performance-related drug habits, adultery, gambling, and drunkeness seem to be ok whereas murder, dog fighting, and simply being albert belle seem to be unacceptable. i'm curious where and how collectors draw the line.

rudy.

Albert Belle is a player that has always baffled me. Was he that big of a jerk that it affected the value of his items that much? Here you have one of the top 3 sluggers of the 90's who was PED free (as far as I know) and was posting HOF numbers before a hip injury derailed his career. I've been trying to sell a couple of his bats and have had no takers at what I think are pretty reasonable prices for a player with numbers like him.

With a number of Cleveland Indians collectors on the board it seems like you rarely see his name come up when folks are looking for '90's Indians items. Just found this strange but I guess his attitude left a bad taste in the mouths of a lot fans.

[BULBUS]

non-performance-related drug habits, adultery, gambling, and drunkeness seem to be ok whereas murder, dog fighting, and simply being albert belle seem to be unacceptable. i'm curious where and how collectors draw the line.

This is true because most have dealt with the former in one way or another These are pretty common mistakes that people make in their lives. As far as the latter goes, no one likes to see people or animals hurt and there really is no excuse for those "mistakes".

Albert Belle and jerks like him are another story. When you are a jerk from the get-go, you don't build a fan base, thus no one is collecting their stuff.

-Chris

[gingi79]

non-performance-related drug habits, adultery, gambling, and drunkeness seem to be ok whereas murder, dog fighting, and simply being albert belle seem to be unacceptable. i'm curious where and how collectors draw the line.

rudy.

This is an excellent topic and I think if the responses are as good as the OP, it will be a Sticky.

I highlighted this part of your post because I feel you hot the nail on the head. I also think I have the answer.

I think being an alcoholic, having a coke habit, being unfaithful or an addiction to gambling means these people are flawed. It shows our superhero athletes have weakness and it makes them an underdog and makes them more like us.
This country loves a comeback-underdog-against all odds redemption story because we can relate to them. We all want to believe that given a chance, we could be Rudy or Vince Papale or even Jim Morris (from The Rookie.)

On the flip side, there is a big difference between being flawed and being a criminal. Killing your ex-wife because she was boffing a waiter isn't something the average fan can relate to. I personally love dogs more than certain unmentioned people and I believe many people feel the same way. Vick made it through the whole "Ron Mexico" thing even though he was accused of doing the same thing Robby Alomar is now accused of but once he abused dogs, the world turns on him.

While not as bad as OJ, Belle was a putz to fans and was easily unlikable. In an age where other superstars could overcome this, no one rooted for him to succeed and on a large scale, no one cared if he did. The worst thing that could have happened to his chances for the Hall was all this steroid talk. He may never have done it, never got caught, never even seen them. People believe he did them. Unfortunately, that's enough proof for today's fan.

[kingjammy24]

from what i gather then, if the mistakes made are similar to those made by many in society, then it'll be overlooked. however if the mistakes are deeply criminal and abhorrent then it won't. makes sense.

baseball has always had a long list of surly jerks but belle went way beyond simply being abrasive or rude. he physically exploded in anger. i think one incident that really drove the nail in the coffin for him was when he beaned a fan in the stands in 1990. it's one thing to be rude, it's another to whip a baseball at a fan. from espn:

"It was a taken in baseball circles that Albert Belle was nuts... The Indians billed him $10,000 a year for the damage he caused in clubhouses on the road and at home, and tolerated his behavior only because he was an awesome slugger... Few escaped his anger: on some days he would destroy the postgame buffet...launching plates into the shower... after one poor at-bat against Boston, he retreated to the visitor's clubhouse and took a bat to teammate Kenny Lofton's boombox. Belle preferred to have the clubhouse cold, below 60 degrees, and when one chilly teammate turned up the heat, Belle walked over, turned down the thermostat, and smashed it with his bat. His nickname, thereafter, was "Mr. Freeze""

so i guess the general populace can't relate to severe anger management issues.

rudy.

[xpress34]

GREAT Topic...

1st, I'd like to address the Albert (don't call me Joey) Belle issue... I'm surprised no one has mentioned his 'last act' if you will that ultimately ended his career - and for me personally sealed the deal as far as NEVER wanting his stuff... I don't remember the game/date, but Belle was being heckled by someone in the stands and from about 2 feet from the rail he hurled a baseball (full force - and for man Belle's size, that's some force), missed his intended target and nailed an innocent bystander square in the face breaking their nose and I believe a cheek bone. I'm sorry, THAT kind of action is INEXCUSABLE no matter what the heckler said. Belle could have killed someone.

2nd, as far as me personally, YES - off field antics do affect who and what I collect. I am far from perfect and don't expect players to be perfect, but when they do things I wouldn't even think of doing to another person because they have money and stature (fame) - that's where I draw the line.

A good example was (see Best/Worst Signers post for details) when Frank Robinson turned his back on me like I didn't even exist because I said Hello. I didn't ask for an Auto and I was the ONLY person there... or Bonds (who I personally witnessed) when he came over to two 5-7 year old kids at Coors Field a few years back and said hello. When one kid asked for an auto, Bonds response was, "Do you have $50 kid? If not, go get it from your parents and come back and I'll sign something for you." With that he trotted back out to LF to shag balls for BP. That ended me having any respect for him.

Back in the 80's at Arlington Stadium I lost respect for new HOFer Ricky Henderson when some kids were yelling and waving at him in LF and he ignored them - but as soon as the drunks behind them started heckling him, he turned around and gave them the bird and cussed them out. Real good example - ignore the kids but cuss out the drunks.
I saw Karma come around though when Ryan made Ricky his 5,000 K and then when Nolan stole Rickey's thunder a couple of years later when Rickey became the stolen base leader and Nolan threw his 6th NoNo that night.

Speaking of Nolan - I collect him because he has always appeared to do the right thing by the game, other players, and the fans. It doesn't hurt that I grew up in Texas...

Just my .02

- Chris

[skyking26]

What I have seen is a negative effect on prices regarding the poster man of the steroid era, Mark McGwire.

I had a Stars home, double signed, beautiful game used jersey in my collection. Had difficulty moving it for $2500. It should have sold for more considering it had great provenance and was signed twice legitimately.

I've been approached with some great stuff, often by guys that bought high. Not really a great idea for me the buyer to pay top dollar for an item that has fallen off the edge of the earth in terms of value. Some guys I know have given in, regretfully, and know they won't get their $$ back. I've assisted guys selling Mac stuff and found them buyers only to see them sell an item to another guy without giving me a chance to match it, and guys that say they buy a bat for $1800 at 4 pm, then offer it to me at 8 pm for $2000. These are other stories I guess - a sad digression of where some of this is headed.

McGwire in my opinion will stay low unless he talks, whether eventually or later. Sad because I regard him as one of the best pure power hitters of our time steroids or not. I've always liked the HR hitters. Before Mac was implicated, he hit HRS (look at his rookie year, look at his first little league experience).

In summation, using just McGwire as an example, I think the guys connected to steroids will always have a taint to their name.

[xpress34]

Rudy -

I was writing my post when you posted yours!!! You beat me to the punch (no pun intended) and mentioned the Belle fan beaning incident...

- Chris

[emann]

I think off-field actions can impact slightly depending on the severity of course. In my mind it impacts the price I'm willing to spend on an item if the player has basically destroyed his legacy with those actions.

I was in contact with Dewey about one of those Belle bats he has. I've wanted a nice Belle bat for awhile now but in thinking it out I have a pretty set price I want to spend. Belle is probably never going to get into the HOF because of his actions with journalists/fans. He retired young and then went to prison for stalking his mistress. Since I think Belle is going to fade into obscurity for the most part, I realize that whatever I put into the bat will be tough to recoup should I ever need/want to sell it due to these facts. Belle destroyed his own future in a sense with his actions...

That in turn equals how much I want to have in a certain item from these sort of players (even though Dewey's prices were more than reasonable).

It's really based per offense and how severe they are... Kobe seemed to rebound from his antics, same with Boggs, Ray Lewis for example. Those were relatively minor offenses...

I think if the HR record gets taken away from Bonds or if all the PED-using players get blacklisted from the HOF, it'll severely impact the prices of their collectibles. You're already seeing it happen w/ McGwire's non-GU items (his autos/cards are in the toilet).

I wouldn't take a free Vick GU jersey at this point.