Nightmare On Paypal Street

[sammy]

Thought I would start a tread on PayPal horror stories as many bidders and sellers use their services on eBay. Perhaps others can learn from our experiences.

This is one of mine.


I won an auction on eBay that consisted of two items. The photo in the auction showed the two items and two Score Board certs that were to come with these items. The photo showed one of the items decently enough, but the second item was smaller and I couldn't really judge it.

After winning the auction, I promptly paid with PayPal out of my bank account and asked that the seller send me the tracking number when the items had been shipped. The seller stated he would ship the items the next day.

After not hearing from the seller for four days and with no replies to my e-mail requests, I filed a complaint with PayPal due to non-receipt of my items.

Now keep in mind, PayPal states that paying via your bank account is just as safe for the buyer as using a credit card.

After I filed my complaint, the seller was sent an e-mail by PayPal and his account had a hold placed on it. The seller then sent my items and I received these about four days after the complaint was filed.

Upon reviewing the items, I found that only one Score Board cert was included and the smaller item was a blatant forgery.

I then sent PayPal an e-mail stating that I had received the items, but wanted to amend my original complaint because of the forgery. Thought that would be all I needed to do.

I then wrote the seller about the forgery and he stated that if I wasn't happy to just send the items back for a refund. I packaged everything up and send it back with a signature confirmation required. The items were delivered back to the seller and he personally signed for these.

I then notified PayPal that the items had been returned and sent copies of my shipping receipts, the seller's e-mail stating that I could return the items, and the tracking number.

PayPal responded that since my original complaint was for non-receipt of the items, and the seller provided proof of delivery, PayPal found in the seller's favor and was releasing my funds to him.

I personally couldn't believe the idiotic response I had received from PayPal as this amount was over 300.00.

I called and talked to numerous people at PayPal and it seems that one would tell me something, and another would state the opposite. Even though they each could pull up the file and see everything related to this transaction, they were clueless.

I then appealed this decision to release my funds to this seller due to the simple fact that the seller had received both items back.

I once again sent the signature confirmation number, and copied the info from the USPS website showing when it was delivered and that the seller had signed for it. The seller also had the items relisted on eBay at this time and I sent PayPal that auction number as well as the one I had won so that these clueless individuals could see that the seller had the original items back, and on auction again.

The seller challenged my appeal, even though he had the items back, and on auction.

Didn't matter to the good folks at PayPal.

Because I had originally filed for non-receipt, I could not amend, change, or add to this original complaint. And, since the seller could show that the package was delivered to me originally, that satisfied PayPal. They denied my appeal and stated my money was being released to the seller.

Now I am really pissed off at the stupidity of PayPal and their nonsensical reasoning.

I started researching the seller. I found out that this seller had three accounts and was cross using these accounts to bid up his own items.

I wrote the seller and as frankly as possible stated that if I didn't get my money back, the research I had was going to be sent to eBay and his accounts would all be closed, and he would be permanently banned.

I received my money back the next day from this seller.

The seller's eBay accounts have also been closed.

Moral of this long story, always use a credit card on PayPal to pay for your items and you will have some real protection against fraud, not just lip service. Also, make sure you are absolutely correct in whatever category you file a complaint under because PayPal will not let you amend it in any way.

[otismalibu]

I've never registered a bank account with Paypal and don't intend to. Most all of my purchases come directly off my CC. Occasionally, I'll sell some items and if my balance gets up to more than I'd like, I just request a check from Paypal.

As far as the actual items, always request a good scan of the items if one is not provided. Especially signed items with a Scoreboard COA. Scoreboard COAs are very simple to copy. And even authentic Scoreboard COAs can be coupled with bogus items. I often see Scoreboard COAs with bogus Julius Erving auto cards on eBay.

Greg

[BULBUS]

I agree, always use a credit card. Paypal tries to get you to use your bank account so you don't build up debt on yor card. The truth is that they dont want to pay fees to the credit card companies. Also, I have heard about many people winning their case but still not getting their money back. If you use your cc, then at least you have someone else that will listen to you. I hate Paypal, but without it, I would make a lot less sales.

[trsent]

PayPal and eBay both have some computer systems that allows stupid situations to get out of hand. It is amazing with all the proof you showed, PayPal wouldn't let you amend your complaint.

Think about it, you should be able to complain when you don't receive the merchandise, then you should be able to complain when the merchandise is incorrect and your returned it.

Who is PayPal to make a policy that you can only complain once when there could be future issues with a sale after the original non-receipt complaint? They will be sued over this someday.

[otismalibu]

I think the easiest way to get a refund with Paypal, is when the seller has no proof (Delivery Confirmation, signature) that the item ever arrived. Many buyers figured this out and would request a refund from Paypal when they saw no Delivery Confirmation on the package, even though they had received it.

Was I reading your post correctly? Did you file a non-receipt complaint with Paypal 4 days after the auction ended?

I'm not sure how Paypal works with "fake" items. If you get what you bid on, I'm guessing they figure it's case closed. Then you probably have to deal directly with the seller.

I've used Paypal for about 6 years. Haven't had a problem yet.

Greg

[sammy]

Greg,

The seller was supposed to ship the next day after payment, via USPS priority mail. He confirmed that he would, and stated he would send a delivery confirmation number upon shipment.

After I had not received confirmation of shipment and/or a tracking number the next day, I tried to contact the seller numerous times.

After four days of being totally ignored by this seller, and not receiving confirmation of shipment as he stated, nor the item, I filed my complaint.

[otismalibu]

Well, If that's what he promised or was stated in his TOS...

I was unaware that you could file a complaint that soon.

I'm waiting for an item right now and it's been 3 weeks since I paid with Paypal. But, I've been in touch with the seller and it's not a high priced item.

Glad you got your money back, even though it took some time.

Greg

[trsent]

I had a guy file a complaint a few days after an auction ended because I didn't reply to an email the day after the auction ended because I was traveling. Funny, they held his money up until the package was delivered. It was delivered a few days later.

[ham1963]

The problems with internet banking and people think that this is the way of the future. I guess that I have been lucky with Pay-Pal and the people I have dealt with. I agree don't give Pay-Pal your bankaccount number I just use my CC #.:cool:

[Mike Grueber]

PayPal's logic is idiotic. The seller could have sent you an empty box. If you signed for a box that contained nothing but air, that would presumably be sufficient for PayPal to close your case based on their logic.


Mike Grueber

[otismalibu]

http://cgi.ebay.com/96-97-Topps-Stars-Julius-Erving-Score-Board-Cert-AUTO_W0QQitemZ8797024389QQcategoryZ4235QQrdZ1QQcmd ZViewItem

Above is an example of a bogus auto with what looks to be a copy of an actual Score Board COA. The only Score Board Erving auto cards I know of are the 1978 Topps numbered to /1978.

Greg

[trsent]

Above is an example of a bogus auto with what looks to be a copy of an actual Score Board COA. The only Score Board Erving auto cards I know of are the 1978 Topps numbered to /1978.

I am a bit curious, how do you know this and the Shaq card the same seller is selling are "bogus"? I do not know every LOA The ScoreBoard made in their day, but I have seen quite a few variations of their LOAs that would lead me to believe the ones pictured in the auctions may be legitimate, or the seller may have no idea.

I do not know how the autographs look with the ScoreBoard certificates, but then again, this is a seller who is selling autographed Michael Jordan cards and a Walter Payton autographed card that I wouldn't buy with Pesos.

[otismalibu]

I'm only referring to the Erving card. I'm not familiar with Shaq's signature. All the Score Board COAs I have for Erving cards, photos, etc. are on an off-white/tan paper. It looks to be on lighter paper in the auction, but I suppose that could be a scanning issue. I'm guessing that the COA is a copy, but I'm quite certain that the Erving auto is not genuine.



Greg

[dranimal]

[quote=Mike Grueber]PayPal's logic is idiotic. The seller could have sent you an empty box. If you signed for a box that contained nothing but air, that would presumably be sufficient for PayPal to close your case based on their logic.

I had a buddy buy a Rolex (not smart). He called AmEx and made sure they'd cover him if it wasn't received as bought. Well they said they would. Turned out he got some bad info as there is a disclaimer on jewelry. May be one on collectibles, too as they go hand in hand. Paypal showed the item shipped so fake or not he was hosed. Now, the police departments laugh at all the EBAY war stories out there and usually there are several to top yours and basically they offer very little help....refer to it as a civil matter even though you were criminally set up in a premeditated manner most times. I realize all but a few know Ebay and Paypal are the same company as Ebay bought them awhile back, and you'd think it might help if your reputation is good, but it makes little difference. IMO as the scams grow on EBAY and Paypal continues their logic or lack thereof, the whole process will become self limiting; as the reputation sours so will sales. Lastly, I know this for certain. If a buyer pays you through Paypal and the funds are stolen through a hacked account or credit card and you ship the item, you are outta luck. They offer no protection for that scenario unlike cc companies. Best to use a money order or cashiers check or even personal check and wait till it clears on high dollar items. Even then you can still have problems. Wait till the funds clear before you ship. Cc's can be charged back up to 6 months. Just my .02 worth. Jeff