Fred Lynn Red Sox Jersey - Thoughts?

[beantown]

Interested in fellow forum members thoughts on this 1977 Fred Lynn Game Used Red Sox Jersey....please let me know...thanks...

[beantown]

Can anyone offer any insight on this '76 Jersey having a "blue border" on the year and manufacturer tag vs. '77 that does not?

http://www.greyflannelauctions.com/LotDetail3.aspx?lotid=17711

[lon lewis]

Beantown, The blue border tags actually made their first appearance in 1974, and were in full production in 1975. Without getting into the legitimacy of the jersey shown, it should be noted that during the '70's and 80's anyone could obtain from McAuliffe/Stahl and Dean completely tagged jerseys of any of the teams that were produced by that company and after the '70's, those jerseys would as a general rule contain the borderless mfr tag.

[1986&2004Bosox]

lon so are you saying that the 77 yaz in lelands that sold was not correct? can anyone else confirm what lon is saying? I have not heard that but lon I would love to hear your thoughts on the yaz shirt in particular. Also I have seen a 74 yaz road with no blue in the neck are you saying that jersey is questionable as well?

[1986&2004Bosox]

May 2008 Catalog (http://www.lelands.com/auction.aspx?auctionid=805) → Sports (http://www.lelands.com/categories.aspx?auctionid=805&typeid=1) → Baseball Equipment (http://www.lelands.com/itemlist.aspx?auctionid=805&categoryid=21) Lot 195. 1977 Carl Yastrzemski Autographed Game Worn Home Jersey. Lon take a look and let me know. Are you saying that this is common knoweldge or is this your opinion about the border? Can anyone confirm this?

[1986&2004Bosox]

Lon what about 1980 Tony Armas, 1977 Ted Williams, also Lelands past auction? Lon if this is in fact a fact and not your opinion can you provide information such as order forms a book that shows you could order them something more than a statement that would backup your position? Otherwise the statement is harmful toward pieces. If it is indeed true then wouldn't major auction houses know this and not make the same mistake for years?

[1986&2004Bosox]

lon one final point you say after the "70ties" the jerseys did not contain the blue so that would mean 1980 on? So are you saying that McAulliffe went back and issued a 1977 jersey in 1980 without the blue can you please clarify as I am sure there are many collectors who would like to know.

[lon lewis]

Bosox, I believe I covered/ re-covered everything you requested in my response to your email.

[1986&2004Bosox]

Yes Mr. Lewis thanks. I tend to disagree with your position regarding the lack of blue in the neck tagging from 75-78 for Red Sox Jerseys being a tell tale sign of it being a retail but I do appreciate your info.

The fact that there are no order forms, no evidence of McAuliffe selling directly to the public other than "word of mouth" and no McAuliffe hoard of borderless McAuliffe jerseys flooding the marletplace I tend to think that it is a simple label varation.

This reminds me of the "strip tagged" argument on majestic jerseys in 2005 and we have seen traded players, late season call ups, players who swaped numbers where there is no strip tag but the correct wash tag and the shirt came directly from the player, team or steiner. I

[flaco1801]

i believe lon when he says that..........if you look at the yaz jersey it looks brand new.. back then they got 4 roads and 4 homes for the whole year...i checked my 75 rick miller, it has the blue border and it has some great use.... learn from the ones that wanna share knowledge....

[1986&2004Bosox]

flaco if they got 8 shirts per year the 1970 why would any show great wear? That means they got a new shirt every 20 home & road games? The Sox back then you were luck to get 2 homes and 2 roads for the season. Maybe a Yaz or Fisk got more but not many other players.

To me it is just very hard to make a statement when you have no facts to back the statement up. Word of mouth is no better than an urban legend. Until someone has proof of what Mr. Lewis states I can not take it as a fact.


It is just funny to me that every auction house & major dealer has not made the differential between blue neck trim and non blue neck trim but Mr.Lewis says that it is a common fact amongst advanced collectors, so I guess numerous advanced collectors threw away thousands on the yaz, and williams in lelands and that lelands knowingly sold bad items?

I hope a major dealer or a collector more advanced than me and my 20 plus years of collecting chimes in.

[ironmanfan]

I've been in the hobby for close to 30 years and I can confirm Lon's comments that anyone could order jersey's directly from McAuliffe back in the 1970's which would explain why you see a relatively high amount of Hank Aaron Brewers tops as well as BoSox & A's star players from that time period.....I learned this from a popular newsletter entitled "Diamond Duds" which was a very informative monthly publication in the mid 1990's

[beantown]

I've been in the hobby for close to 30 years and I can confirm Lon's comments that anyone could order jersey's directly from McAuliffe back in the 1970's which would explain why you see a relatively high amount of Hank Aaron Brewers tops as well as BoSox & A's star players from that time period.....I learned this from a popular newsletter entitled "Diamond Duds" which was a very informative monthly publication in the mid 1990's

Interesting...do you know if there was a difference in tagging with retail jerseys vs. game used jerseys?

[1986&2004Bosox]

So now we are using a new letter from the 1990ties as evidence that shirts could be bought in the 1970ties. Do you have a copy of this? What evidence did they provide that this was the case? Just because a news letter states something are we just going to believe it? If their is an interview with an worker from the company or records or 100% examples of this then tremendous but if we are to believe that the only difference is the lack of blue trim in the neck tag would a company actually do that 35 plus years ago when there was no collector interest and if they did it to the neck why not do it to the year tag as well?

[kingjammy24]

It is just funny to me that every auction house & major dealer has not made the differential between blue neck trim and non blue neck trim

is it really surprising that professional sellers have not made a distinction that would reduce their profits?

hey lookie here, lelands didn't make the distinction between a canseco gamer and a scoreboard canseco and sold the latter for over $1200. http://www.lelands.com/bid.aspx?auctionid=205&lot=1979

4 yrs later, they do it yet again!: http://www.lelands.com/bid.aspx?auctionid=611&lot=672

cha-ching! yet it is common knowledge amongst collectors that home jerseys with "2 90" labels were Scoreboard shirts.

i don't know what the story is on these shirts but i do know i can't remember the last time an auction house or major dealer added to the collective knowledge of the hobby. those guys tend to keep very quiet for a reason. yaz shirts are profitable..no need to stop the gravy train.

as for a company differentiating between retail and pro shirts at a time when there was no such interest, rawlings began supplying the majors about 25 yrs ago. they differentiated between pro and retail shirts by sewing the tagging differently. 2 sides of the tag were sewn for the retail tags, while all 4 sides were sewn on the pro tags.

rudy.

[flaco1801]

yeah the auction houses are gonna lose profits turning away somewhat looking legit shirts.. wake up.... you are looking for printed sales documents from employees of mcaufliffe for proof... this is a joke right?

[1986&2004Bosox]

Yeah it is funny that an auction house or dealer would take the risk for a few thousand dollars because knowingly selling an item that is not what it is stated to be is fraud; and fraud equals jail time. Each and every act of fraud is punishable by no less than 1 and no more than 4 years in jail for each act plus restitution to the adversely affected party. So yeah to me their is no upside and only down side and with operation bullpen still going strong and nice shinny auction books and auction results it's easy to go back and see the bad items and lets not forget the FBI hit up the last National so yeah from where I stand what's the benefit to selling crap when there is enough great stuff to sell and make money on?

[1986&2004Bosox]

no flaco if we can go back to the 20ties for H&B how hard would it be to find records from the 70ties?

[kingjammy24]

"no flaco if we can go back to the 20ties for H&B how hard would it be to find records from the 70ties?"

why don't you try to get the mcauliffe records and find out how hard it is?
H&B chose to release their records after much effort and persuasion on behalf of several individuals. to my knowledge, mcauliffe hasn't released their records so it would be very hard to get them.

"Each and every act of fraud is punishable by no less than 1 and no more than 4 years in jail for each act"

so a certain delicious authenticator should be behind bars by now doing a 1200 year sentence. but he's not. how did that happen? ah to be young and naive again.

anyway, here are a couple of photos:
http://img4.imageshack.us/img4/8316/riceg.jpg

http://img4.imageshack.us/img4/9756/lynn.jpg

rudy.

[kingjammy24]

'77 Yaz: http://www.americanmemorabilia.com/Auction_Item.asp?Auction_ID=33846

'75 Yaz: http://www.americanmemorabilia.com/Auction_Item.asp?Auction_ID=41852

'75 Burleson: http://www.americanmemorabilia.com/Auction_Item.asp?Auction_ID=31117

'75 Burleson: http://www.americanmemorabilia.com/Auction_Item.asp?Auction_ID=31179

'75 Fisk: http://www.americanmemorabilia.com/Auction_Item.asp?Auction_ID=29367

'75 Conigliaro: http://www.americanmemorabilia.com/Auction_Item.asp?Auction_ID=29367

'75 Fisk: http://www.robertedwardauctions.com/auction/2006/1057.html

'75 Yaz: http://www.lelands.com/bid.aspx?auctionid=405&lot=891

'75 Conigliaro: http://www.lelands.com/bid.aspx?auctionid=412&lot=556

'77 Evans: http://www.lelands.com/bid.aspx?auctionid=412&lot=549

'76 Lynn: http://www.lelands.com/bid.aspx?auctionid=611&lot=652

beantown: i'm not a redsox collector nor an expert in 70s era jerseys. from the yaz jerseys i've seen tonight, they were all size 42.

rudy.

[kingjammy24]

from the yaz jerseys i've seen tonight, they were all size 42.

rudy.

woops..brain misfired..thought this was about a yaz jersey. heh!

rudy.

[1986&2004Bosox]

and if you notice the 75 yaz shirt in AMI no blue trim and the 77 yaz in lelands no blue trim? So I guess people lost almost 6k on those 2 shirts if we are to go with Mr. Lewis theory that to this point is not backed by proof.

However about the order sheets Mr.Lewis has the order sheets for the Red Sox. He has stated this in emails to me, so if those exist then wouldn't other records exist to prove his position?

[1986&2004Bosox]

rudy it's not even about size of shirts it's about blue trim in the neck tagging which without it Mr.Lewis says is a retail aftermarket shirt all I have said is prove your statement. He say's that aftermarket ordering was all word of mouth, if it was profitable why not advertise that you could get any shirt you wanted made up? Why didn't stores carry the jerseys? His comments just dont ad up to me with out proof it is just alot of he said she said.

[1986&2004Bosox]

Rudy looks like someone got screwed for 6 k on the 75 fisk in robert edwards auction on the Fisk at least according to Mr. Lewis as size is wrong, tags are in the wrong place and there is no blue around the McAullife tag which is on the tail but should be in the neck.

Mr.Lewis might be the nicest guy in the world but he is off base on this issue.

[1986&2004Bosox]

Finally King the authenticator is not behind bars because no one has gone after him if collectors filled a class action against him you would see things change. Don't even try using the Arod line on me LOL. This has nothing to do with age it has to do with facts. Fact is we as collectors have not pushed the issue and put the heat to get the bad people out of the industry. When we have people have done a good amount of time behind bars. Their is no time limit on fraud charges can be pressed at anytime.

[1986&2004Bosox]

One final thought either the Fred Lynn pic that King posted is badly discolored or that jersey is a FAKE and no I am not joking.

Roads had Boston across the front not Red Sox. Home had Red Sox and that jersey does not look white at all to me. What are your thoughts Mr.Lewis?

Im done for the night as this has tired me out.

[beantown]

Lets add more confusion...this jersey appears on fredlynn.net....

A '77 Gamer in a size 42 and with "blue" bordered tagging....:confused:

[flaco1801]

while your at it why dont you find out about the 75 red sox bi centennial patches... or the lack there of

[kingjammy24]

let me preface all of my comments by saying i know nothing about mcauliffe shirts or 70s red sox shirts at all. now, on to the tertiary issues. before i comment, i have 2 questions for you and i mean them in earnest. i'm not being facetious here.

1) are you the seller of this '77 lynn jersey?

2) how long have you been in this hobby?

i ask because some of the notions you're advancing are just completely out to lunch; the idea that an auction house would never knowingly sell something bad because the authorities are going catch it all. you then admit they haven't caught it all because we haven't pressed it. whatever the reason is, the point is they miss most of it and that's why auction houses feel confident passing off garbage because they know nothing will happen.
secondly, fraud requires intent. an auction house or authenticator could always just say they didn't know it was bad. at worst it's negligence and they'll take the risk given the complete lack of prosecution we've seen so far. you talk about people doing a "good amount of time behind bars". forget operation bullpen because that wasn't about the game-used hobby or even auction houses at all! it was about autographs. tell me who in the game-used or auction house milieu has done time behind bars? provide a single name.
you say operation bullpen is still going strong. what on earth does catching autograph forgeries have to do with the game-used hobby or auction houses? auction houses won't dare sell a bad jersey because an autograph forgery ring in socal got busted? where's the logic?

"So I guess people lost almost 6k on those 2 shirts"
"Rudy looks like someone got screwed for 6 k on the 75 fisk in robert edwards auction"

yes, so they lost $6k. what's your point? you keep bringing up the fact that people spent big money on shirts as if it has any relevance to anything. are you implying that if a shirt sells for a large sum then it must be good? are you serious? people lost $50 BILLION with bernie madoff. according to your logic, bernie must be innocent because people couldn't possibly lose $50 billion, right?

here's a 1994 mcgwire with wrong colored NOB! sold for over $1400: http://www.americanmemorabilia.com/Auction_Item.asp?Auction_ID=22278 (http://www.americanmemorabilia.com/Auction_Item.asp?Auction_ID=22278) . woopsy! hey how did operation bullpen miss that one?

here someone gets screwed for over $4400 on this bonds shirt at REA because mears apparently thought barry wore shirts with no tags and that a 2001 "bonds authenticated" patch should have a year on it: http://www.robertedwardauctions.com/auction/2007/1201.html (http://www.robertedwardauctions.com/auction/2007/1201.html)

yes people buy things they don't understand all the time. yes people end up losing big money. are you just beginning to realize this now? too bad you didn't pick up the $100k namath superbowl helmet that turned out to be bad. to this day you'd be arguing against the photo evidence on the basis that you spent $100k on it, therefore it must be good.

"so if those exist then wouldn't other records exist to prove his position?"

no. again, where's the logic? the existance of one set of records does not automatically mean the existance of another. these companies didn't keep immaculate records to account for everything. even the H&B records are incomplete and in several areas an illegible mess. if you don't want to believe lon, then don't. it seems like you're fighting tooth and nail not to believe him in a manner that's very reminiscent of scott byergo telling me i was wrong about bo jackson ever having scoreboard shirts. of course, having already purchased them, it seemed like scott wasn't so much interested in the truth as he was in trying to preserve the value of his own shirts.

rudy.

[1986&2004Bosox]

King the point of the argument is that THEIR IS NO EVIDENCE NO PROOF of what Mr. Lewis is stating.

He states that the neck tags without the blue border were after market jeresy's but then state that that practice did not come into play till the 80ties.

So if that pratice did not come into play in till the 80ties what is his issue with a 1970ties shirt? He is casting a wide scope without proof.

If this were a situation like Anaconda Kaye where you see order forms for game bats in the SCD then he can make his argument. This is not the case his only argument is the lack of blue neck tagging makes it a "word of mouth" beer league ordered jersey. That argument is just laughable without PROOF when The lettering, tagging, size everything is correct.

King I have been in the hobby 20 plus years.

People who got busted for selling bogus stuff Broadway Rick, MLB umpires.

Auction houses can not argue they did not know they are proporting the items to be game used and if proven not to be they have the legal responsibility to resolve the issue. Think of it as the lemon law, it is the responsibility of the seller to represent the item in the right manor.

Bullpen was and is about more than just autographs as evident by the FBI at the National.

The intent is there, the intent is to profit by selling an item that is knowingly incorrect they have opened themselves to that standard by having conducted previous auctions for profit.

Negligence is isolated, fraud is repeating the same behavior over and over again with the same results in this situation profit.

This hobby need to be cleaned up however it also needs to be cleaned up in a manor in which it is fact based not he said she said.

All I have asked for from the outset is proof from Mr. Lewis which he has been unable to provide. All he has stated is he knows it happened.

Scoreboard, Anaconda/Kaye ads exist aka proof. Provide some and then I will believe him.

If the borderless neck tagged shirts are wrong then auction houses need to go back and refund the purchasers.

My argument is I find it irresponsible for Mr. Lewis to toss his statement out there without more than word of mouth and I know this happened as his proof.

[kingjammy24]

King I have been in the hobby 20 plus years.

cool, thanks. what about my other question..are you the seller of the '77 lynn shown in this thread?

fyi, from what i've heard the FBI interests at the national focused on shill bidding and card doctoring.

thanks,

rudy.

[ironmanfan]

People who got busted for selling bogus stuff Broadway Rick, MLB umpires.



Speaking of evidence or proof, show me one shread of evidence that Broadway Rick was "busted for selling bogus stuff." The only umpire (singular) I heard of getting busted for selling bogus stuff was Al Clark (who are the others?)...Where is this proof?

[kingjammy24]

People who got busted for selling bogus stuff Broadway Rick, MLB umpires.

broadway rick? rick was "busted" by ebay for shill bidding. he wasn't "busted for selling bogus stuff", and he didn't "spend time behind bars (unless there's some virtual ebay jail). in fact, ebay allowed him to continue doing business. he's still selling there to this day.

not sure why you used the plural for umpires. it was just al clark.

rudy.

[1986&2004Bosox]

another dealer busted

A memorabilia dealer who admitted selling jerseys and other items he falsely claimed were used by Michael Jordan, Tiger Woods and Shaquille O'Neal was sentenced Wednesday to a year and a day in prison on mail fraud and tax charges. Steve Ryan, 42, of Wheeling, admitted defrauding customers and understating his 1994 income by about $60,000.

Mr. Kohl was not just shill bidding check in with the BBB

Clark also involved this individual in his scam.

The memorabilia dealer, Richard Graessle Jr., 43, of Millburn, pleaded guilty to tax evasion for his role in the scheme, which operated from September 1995 to November 1998.

[kingjammy24]

the BBB cannot sentence people to "spend time behind bars". you can't say rick kohl spent time behind bars and offer his BBB file as proof. and graessle went to prison for tax evasion. anyway, i had forgotten about good old steve ryan. northshore sports. good call. 2 people have indeed gone to prison for selling bogus stuff. ok that matter is put to rest.

now..again..for the 3rd time, are you the seller of the '77 lynn jersey shown in this thread and/or do you have any financial interest in it?

rudy.

[1986&2004Bosox]

I never said Kohl spent time behind bars, he got busted back in the 90ties for multiple things involved with sports business and disappeared from the scene for a while.

Greassel got busted for tax evasion but he marketed the items and profited from the ill gotten gains of bad items.

I am the Lynn seller.

I hate bad items most recent case in point 99 hoffman AS that gaynor just sold on ebay 1200.00 total fake AS patch was grey should of been white and I saw it to late called scott and emailed and he said he would fix it.

Hell I have uncovered more nice items than most. Just found a 56 jim ringo packers that was pounded and a very prominent board member is very happy with it.

If Mr. Lewis had proof about his statements then I would gladly except his position word of mouth is not enough for me. Evidence is needed

[ChrisCavalier]

1986&2004Bosox,

Please email me right away.

[karamaxjoe]

Wouldn't the fact that McAuliffe sold tagged jerseys to the public be common knowledge among Red Sox collectors? Don't we have one Red Sox collector that can corroborate Lon and ironmanfan's statements?

I've seen the frameless tags for years and wondered if they were trimmed or just a variation. How could the fact that these jerseys are not the real deal be known by so few. If I had to choose sides on this I'd go with Lon's story since he's gotta pretty good reputation.

[1986&2004Bosox]

karamaxjoe it is not common knowledge as there are numerous advance Red Sox collectors with borderless jersey in their collection with great provenance. This is a theory that is unsubstantied by than Mr. Lewis and not shared by any other expert thus far. It is not a topic that has ever been adressed by MEARS and with so much speculation from Mr. Lewis and his stance that there are no records for these orders because this was word of mouth thing and not advertised by McAuliffe; I would love to see an industry standard and an article posted on MEARS website regarding this topic.

Finally karamaxjoe taking someones story at face value weather it be a player, dealer or authentication company because they have a good rep is an irresponsible when the individual or company has no proof to back up their statements. It is about as irresponsible as Mr. Lewis making the statement in the first place without fact's to back it up.

All I have asked for from the out set is for Proof of which none has to this point been provided. If Mr. Lewis can provide more than his opinion then I will gladly say I am wrong.

[karamaxjoe]

Finally karamaxjoe taking someones story at face value weather it be a player, dealer or authentication company because they have a good rep is an irresponsible when the individual or company has no proof to back up their statements. It is about as irresponsible as Mr. Lewis making the statement in the first place without fact's to back it up.

All I have asked for from the out set is for Proof of which none has to this point been provided. If Mr. Lewis can provide more than his opinion then I will gladly say I am wrong.


I suggest you do some research to prove Lon's statement is inaccurate. All I know is Lon's reputation is pretty good on this forum and that's all I was saying. Plus Lon wasn't the ONLY forum member making the same statement. Prove them wrong and you can be a hero. Otherwise the damage has been done.

[1986&2004Bosox]

Karamaxjoe what damage? I guess the fact that Mr.Lewis feels this way and some reference in a " Diamond Duds news letter " which we

A. have no copy of &
B. we don't know the who the source of the original statement is.

I guess these things are enough information for it to be a fact that the lack of blue border means it is a retail?

Never mind the complete lack of order records for retails. The fact that no ads exist anywhere telling the public that they can get a custom made shirt. Or the fact that no one else can confirm Lon's statements, but people agree with Lon because he has a good rep?

Never mind the examples of stars and common shirts that are borderless everything from Fisk to a Tony Armas are known to exist. Finally nevermind the fact that Lon himself has no first hand knowledge of this taking place. Just his stance that it did happen and I need to accept it.

His proof is a Indians jersey in the Henderson guide tagged 1971 that he says is from 1987 and that his buddy bought shirts for a softball team from Stall and Dean?

Come on board are we all going to buy into this because Lon says so? No offense Lon but this is kind of like

If someone told you to jump off a bridge would you?

Don't follow blindly and believe in urban legend or he said she said, ask for proof.

I am not saying Lon is right or wrong I am saying Lon provide proof.

[flaco1801]

i guess when you own a jersey that some knowledgable people feel is retail this becomes the norm... i know this, all the red sox jerseys i have seen in 30 years that had the blue border were surely used to the max...

[Moustache Gang]

Winning bid:US $338.99 No payments for 3 months - eBay



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[cohibasmoker]

I have attached a scan of my Johnny Pesky jersey from 1975. Through the years, I have learned the only thing consistent with the hobby is it's inconsistency. With that said, and I am NOT taking sides in this discussion but I'd like to see;

1) A borderless McAuliffe tag on a RED SOX jersey;
2) worn by a common player; and,
2) worn during the same period we are discussing.

Jim

flaa1a@comcast.net

[1986&2004Bosox]

According to Mr.Lewis ALL McAuliffe Produced Game Worn Jerseys from some point in 1974 to the time McAuliffe stopped making shirts in the 80ties had the blue border?

Who on the board thinks someone is going take the time to fake a coaches jersey? The 1980 Walls A's NO BLUE BORDER. Fact of the matter is Mr. Lewis has no proof to back his statements and their are numerous examples of non blue bordered jerseys of stars to commons that prove his theory wrong.

Mr. Lewis might have great knowledge on many subjects but he has no proof to back up his position on the borderless tagging issue and no experts in the field agree with him.

Flaco knowledge needs to be backed by fact, and the fact is Mr. Lewis has nothing concrete to back his statements all I have asked Mr.Lewis for from the outset is proof of his position and he has none.

[karamaxjoe]

I emailed veteran collector Dave Mediema for his thoughts on this manner. Here's his reply:

I've seen the thread, and both parties have a point. Lon's statements are considered gospel with most older game-used collectors, and there seem to be enough mid-'70's Yaz, Lynn, Rice, Fisk and Tiant jerseys with wear that is either missing or simulated in the hobby to verify that point. Same goes for Oakland A's gamers from the same time frame...Reggie, Catfish, etc.
Such retail jerseys also exist for home 1975 Hank Aaron Brewers jerseys, however, those are easier to spot based on a sans-serif numeric font, whereas the real 1975 home gamers (Wilson) have serifed numerals.
Yet, as far as a written record from someone outside the hobby (as opposed to hobby writers printing what they believe is true in SCD, Diamond Duds, and the like), I know of no such record existing...nor have I ever spoken to someone who has actually bought a tagged retail jersey from McAuliffe.
Regardless, I'll go with Lon's views on this dispute. There seems to be enough tagged jerseys that are new or made to look used that the origin of the story likely is legitimate, but, due to the hobby's infancy in the 1970s, never was recorded directly by the hobby press of the day and has since been buried in the 30+ years since.

[1986&2004Bosox]

So Dave Mediema a MEARS columnist is going against MEARS as MEARS has graded many borderless blues with grades as high as A8. And he is bassing his stance on Lon's statemnts being gospel to older hobbyist and the the fact that there have been many Yaz, Reggie, Catfish etc floating around to allow him to determin this?

So here is my question for Mr Mediema.

Sir how do you not know that it was not the same Yaz, Tiant, Fisk, Reggie or Catfish that had just been passed thru the hobby circles?

Also how can you say that jerseys that are tagged correctly lettered correctly are retails when there is no proof of orders of retails?

In todays world if a jersey is tagged correctly, lettered correctly etc are they not refered to as pro cut or game issued? Why would that not be the case with these McAuliffe shirts and at worst that would merit the A5 rating would it not?

Finally if this is common knoweldge and that borderless blue are retails how do you account for the 80 A's Walls jersey a Coach, and also why has MEARS chosen to disregard common hobby knoweldge and grade borderless as unquestionable gamers Example the A8 1975 Carlton Fisk in REA?

Please inform. It is just funny to me to say that info that is 35 years old can't be located but info that goes to 1909 for H&B bats can be; and without hard evidence we are taking a hobby veterans recoletion as gospel?

Mr Mediema you yourself say you have never spoken to anyone who purcahsed directly, don't you find that odd? Also does anyone have the Diamond Duds or SCD articles on this topic? It would be interesting to see the sources for the articles.

[1986&2004Bosox]

In my opinion MEARS has set a hobby standard by evaluation the 75 fisk as an 8, futher proof exists in my opinion in the 80 A's coaches jersey lacking the blue trim. Until there is documented evidence of individuals being able to purchase directly I will have to go with the contention that it is a tag varation and nothing more. Word of mouth and theory are not proof are not fact are not evidence.

As far as the Brewers jersey's they switched manafactures so who is to say that the McAuliffes jerseys were not produced for the team and then the switch was made to wilson? At worst those jerseys can be called salesman samples. To label them retails based upon Lon Lewis in Mr. Mediema words "being gospel among most older collectors" is iresponsible.

This is a situation in which Mr.Lewis should have to PROVE his statment's and position it is not a situation where I should have to disprove his factless theory. A theory that lacks fact as it's basis is not something that should be taken as gospel.

Again Mr.Lewis may be the nicest man in the world, might have a great collection, might have tons wisdow about the hobby I don't know I have never had the chance to meet him. However I do know that just because you have experience that does not mean you are right.

Lon provide proof and I will eat my words and will personally try and find every collector that has a borderless post 1974 McAuliffe in their collection and help them try to get their money back from the auction house, seller etc.

[1986&2004Bosox]

Mr. Mediema thanks for the post on MEARS. I am sorry you feel as though I put words in your mouth. The whole discussion has centered around the blue bordered tagging, and your comments that were posted to GUU by karamaxjoe, you state you take Lon's side on the issue.

Since the issue is the blue border tagging I took you siding with Lon on the issue to mean that you agreed with his position that the lack of blue border meant it was a retail.

If I am mistaken or misread your comments I am sorry; however what other conclusion would you have come to regarding the comments if you were on my side of the issue?

If you are siding with Lon and his stance is that lack of blue border means retail, then isn't that your stance as well? I look forward to the 15th when the MEARS article is posted and you can fully explain your position.

[kingjammy24]

although i know nothing about mcauliffe shirts and the shirts far pre-date my collecting niche, i think this entire issue is a really interesting one. i hope lon posts again because from what i gather, some of his comments have been misinterpreted and miscommunicated.

anyway, here are dave miedema's full comments: http://www.network54.com/Forum/427155/message/1236477067/Response+to+1986%26amp%3B2004Bosox
------------------------------------------------------------------
"With the ongoing disagreement over the retail sale of tagged McAuliffe Red Sox (and A's) jerseys that is currently running on Game Used Forum (and on which my comments have been posted, with my permission, after a question from another member), here is my response to the above member's question.

My comments, if you will read them completely, and not just the parts that interest you, never once mentioned the issue of blue-bordered tagging...you are putting words in my text that were not there. My comments were pertaining to the belief that Lon Lewis, Phil Wood (publisher of the now-defunct newsleter Diamond Duds) and others, including myself, have regarding the existence of these tagged retail exemplars.

I can give two obvious reasons why I believe they do:

1) Mark Weimerskirch's Reggie Jackson A's jersey that I incorrectly autrhenticated back in the early/mid 1990s. Based on the knowledge that I had at that time, I believed it to be the real deal. Keep in mind, however, that the 1993-95 period when this error by me was made did not have ready Internet access to match fonts, logos or other aspects of a jersey. These aspects of visual confirmation are now the norm for examinations MEARS does for items from these genres. I can state of having looked at at least one A's jersey in tandem with Troy and Dave in the last 2 years which had obvious flaws in the NOB font that Internet photo research revealed, but that I would not have been privy to back in the early '90s.
Tagged similarly to legitimate Oakland knits of the era, how could a jersey such as this have made it into circulation with proper and unaltered tagging UNLESS it was obtained through McAuliffe?

2)I do not have the article in my possession and would have to visit Iola to find it, but I recall an SCD article by Bill Dod of New Hampshire circa 1975-76 in which he detailed, the locations of supposed 1975 Red Sox home gamers of Fred Lynn. Broken down by state, the list totalled a dozen...this in an era where players rarely got more than 2 or 3 sets of jerseys. Common sense would tell you that a dozen jerseys of one player 30+ years ago, when game-used collecting was considered odd even by card collectors in this same hobby, and no team or league marketing of thesehad yet begun, wouldn't all be game-used.

As far as the issue of the blue bordered/non-bordered McAuliffe tags go, I would have to research that to comment specifically on that, and plan to do so over the next few days. My findings on this will appear in the March 15 Shirt Off My Back column.

Dave Miedema
MEARS"

as well, dave grob's follow-up:http://www.network54.com/Forum/427155/message/1236482212/McAuliffe+Tagging+Issue (http://www.network54.com/Forum/427155/message/1236482212/McAuliffe+Tagging+Issue)

"In response to Dave Miedemas board post and a series of e-mails I have received on this topic, below is the response I have sent. I have also ensured that both Dave Miedema and Troy have been provided with the various e-mails on this subject.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

(Name Ommitted)

Dave Miedema has posted this in part to our board:

"As far as the issue of the blue bordered/non-bordered McAuliffe tags go, I would have to research that to comment specifically on that, and plan to do so over the next few days. My findings on this will appear in the March 15 Shirt Off My Back column".

I have informed Dave that he is free to research and write, but this is the standard for the work done under the MEARS banner:

1. What is the basis for the opinion or theory?
2. How can the theory be tested and proven?
3. What are the anomalies or inconsistencies in the theory and how are they explained?

In addition to the questions above, he will need to consider and answer these questions as well:

1. If retail jerseys are without the blue boarder, is this exclusive to those and how do you know?
2. How large is the sample you are using and how do you know you are not double counting the same shirt(s). I just covered this in my Barry Larkin article.
3. Are the dozen Fred Lynn jerseys you mentioned with or without a blue boarder? This issue is not if McAuliffe (Stall & Dean) sold retail products, but rather if they can actually be identified as such.

At this time, while it may be the opinion of others in this hobby, including what may in fact be those within our own organization, MEARS as an organization is not prepared at this time to accept the theory outright and without qualifiers that non-blue bordered McAuliffe tagged jerseys (post 74-75) are exclusively retail offerings.

If Dave Miedema's or anyone elses research can answer the questions I have laid out, then MEARS as an organization will gladly reconsider our position and previous opinions offered, and should do so rightfully so.

v/r

Dave"
--------------------------------------------------------------

really interesting stuff.

rudy.

[1986&2004Bosox]

For anyone interested there is more information on the MEARS board on this topic including some very interesting point about a A's jersey that Dave M uses as a basis for his theory.

[mdube16]

This is a great thread. For sure I wouldnt be writing any checks for Sox or A's jerseys from this era right now. I cant wait to see Dave's findings over the next week.

[Marichal27]

Bosox.....You have photos of various McAullife jerseys. Why do you still keep on ragging on Mr. Lewis?? The proof is in front of your face! Forum members have scaned photos of that era. Seems like you are an expert in the class of MEARS (YUK) Lampson (another yuk).You just don't want to admidt you bought a bogus jersey, now you want to unload it. I won a bogus Bonds jersey, til someone clewed me in that it was a fake. That person happened to be Lon. That person saved me over 5 figures. Believe me, a freight train is coming, and if I were you, I'd get far away from the tracks. McAullife did use a blue border at that time, whether it was a high school jersey or an mlb JERSEY. dO YOUR HOMEWORK.In Thai, they would say that you are MOONG! Look at the difference in the newness/oldness of the numbers, etc. vs. the McAullife tag in that '77 Lynn jersey. You sound like a Mikequickness.

[1986&2004Bosox]

Marichal27 it's funny all I have asked Mr. Lewis for is proof which he has not provided. Have not ragged on him once. Have gone out of my way to be kind towards him.

Let me take your statement listed below point by point.

"Believe me, a freight train is coming, and if I were you, I'd get far away from the tracks. McAullife did use a blue border at that time, whether it was a high school jersey or an mlb JERSEY. dO YOUR HOMEWORK.In Thai, they would say that you are MOONG! Look at the difference in the newness/oldness of the numbers, etc. vs. the McAullife tag in that '77 Lynn jersey. You sound like a Mikequickness."

1. A freight train is coming and if I were you, I'd get far away from the tracks?

Then I guess alot of advance collectors, auction houses and authenticators are all going to get hit by it.Read the the whole I said if proven wrong I would try and locate every borderless jersey people have purchased and try to help them get a refund.

2. McAullife did use a blue border at that time, whether it was a high school jersey or an mlb JERSEY.

According to Mr. Lewis that is not the case that the way to tell a MLB jersey apart from a High School is the lack of the blue border, just so we are both on the same page.

3. Do my homework?

I have and my home work has located numerous borderless examples from starts to commons that is why the debate rages on. Case in point borderless A's Walls COACHES Jersey, who is going to forge a coach?

4. Look at the difference in the newness/oldness of the numbers, etc?

Borderless or bordered the jerseys are both 1977 so the numbers are the same age so I dont understand your premis.

Futhermore if these shirts were made for beer leagues, softball teams, high schools etc dont you think they would exhibit tremendous use? As unlike a pro jersey that was worn for 1 season most high schools or beer league teams did not get new shirt each season and as such wouldnt you expect these shirts to be in worse conditon then a MLB jersey that was properly cared for?

5. Mikequickness?

Sorry I dont understand the reference

Finally if you were bidding on a Bonds jersey and the price point reached
$ 10,000.00 can you please provide the auction link and what ultimately happend in that situation?

[beantown]

If the alleged theory is that "non-borderless" tags are only on retail jerseys...here's another...


http://cgi.ebay.com/1975-Game-Used-ROLLIE-FINGERS-Oakland-A-Jerseys-34_W0QQitemZ150331695846QQihZ005QQcategoryZ60597QQ ssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

[kingjammy24]

'76 with border
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=330314114373

excited to see how this all eventually concludes.

rudy.

[iceman13]

'76 with border
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=330314114373

excited to see how this all eventually concludes.

rudy.

The 76 Torrez is my jersey. With respect to the tagging question, I have a 1977 Medich A's. It also has the blue border on the McAuliff tag.

[dcrules01]

I love A's jerseys just wanted to add that..:D

[1986&2004Bosox]

it's funny 2 season later Torrez is a size 50 in boston

[Moustache Gang]

Bosox,

The Torrez appears to be all original minus the name and I believe he did wear a 46 in '76.

I have talked to Lon via emails and he advised that he will be posting in the near future.

Again, I have always stated that A's McAuliffe game used knit jerseys have both blue and non-blue border manufacturer's tags. I have been collecting A's McAuliffe's for almost 20 years and I have not observed one shread of empirical evidence that states' "blue border are game used" and "non-blue border are retail, game issued, non-game worn" jerseys.

I believe in talking to Lon he tried to explain via emails to you what he knows and possibly some of his comments were taken out of text.

No reason for anyone to point fingers here at anybody or get upset. I believe Lon's comments will be in line with my thoughts that you have to look at each jersey and make your own decision based on wear, tagging, sizing, tag location, alterations, etc.

In my all my years of collection I was always told to watch out for 1975 Reggie Jackson jerseys tagged size 44. I am still leery of Reggie tagged 1975 size 44. One of the biggest signs of a "doctored" or "altered" as jersey is to look at he sewn on numbers and lettering. In the 70's McAuliffe used the old the old tackle twill that is not real shiney. Many who try to doctor a common A's McAuliffe knit jersey into a HOF Jackson, Hunter or Fingers will use today's poly-twill that was not made until after the 70's McAuliffe jerseys. The poly-twill has a shine or sheen to it as compared to the tackle twill of the 70's. It is almost alwasys a dead give away. I always knew something looked inconsistent with some of the A's jerseys out there and Lon Lewis told me what I had always thought about the tackle twill. I just did not know about the poly twill or years that it was introduced by manufacturers until Lon advised me.

I would wait for Lon's posting and then comment based on his posting.

Thanks,

Mark

[Marichal27]

Marichal27 it's funny all I have asked Mr. Lewis for is proof which he has not provided. Have not ragged on him once. Have gone out of my way to be kind towards him.

Let me take your statement listed below point by point.

"Believe me, a freight train is coming, and if I were you, I'd get far away from the tracks. McAullife did use a blue border at that time, whether it was a high school jersey or an mlb JERSEY. dO YOUR HOMEWORK.In Thai, they would say that you are MOONG! Look at the difference in the newness/oldness of the numbers, etc. vs. the McAullife tag in that '77 Lynn jersey. You sound like a Mikequickness."

1. A freight train is coming and if I were you, I'd get far away from the tracks?

Then I guess alot of advance collectors, auction houses and authenticators are all going to get hit by it.Read the the whole I said if proven wrong I would try and locate every borderless jersey people have purchased and try to help them get a refund.

2. McAullife did use a blue border at that time, whether it was a high school jersey or an mlb JERSEY.

According to Mr. Lewis that is not the case that the way to tell a MLB jersey apart from a High School is the lack of the blue border, just so we are both on the same page.

3. Do my homework?

I have and my home work has located numerous borderless examples from starts to commons that is why the debate rages on. Case in point borderless A's Walls COACHES Jersey, who is going to forge a coach?

4. Look at the difference in the newness/oldness of the numbers, etc?

Borderless or bordered the jerseys are both 1977 so the numbers are the same age so I dont understand your premis.

Futhermore if these shirts were made for beer leagues, softball teams, high schools etc dont you think they would exhibit tremendous use? As unlike a pro jersey that was worn for 1 season most high schools or beer league teams did not get new shirt each season and as such wouldnt you expect these shirts to be in worse conditon then a MLB jersey that was properly cared for?

5. Mikequickness?

Sorry I dont understand the reference

Finally if you were bidding on a Bonds jersey and the price point reached
$ 10,000.00 can you please provide the auction link and what ultimately happend in that situation?

Bosox...I'm saying look at the crispness of your McAullife tag. Compare it to the rest of the jersey. looks like more wear and washings on the jersey than it does on the tagging. On the photos, the tag seems too new compared to the rest of the jersey. As far as that "Bonds', it was from an AMI auction about 4 years ago. Supposedly a 2001 road w/flag; Lon spotted this as a fake and did some talking to them (AMI) and I received my $$ back.

[1986&2004Bosox]

I have a 77 Rice road with blue border tag letters and numbers are pounded tags are crisp so that theory don't hold up. There are game worn jerseys from the 50ties with crisp tags.

[1986&2004Bosox]

For all that are interested MEARS article is online

[kingjammy24]

1) its my personal opinion that in attempting to determine tagging issues, jerseys of stars and superstars shouldn't be used as examples. the reasons are obvious. you're far better off, for the purpose of accurate results, to use jerseys from common players. there are a myriad of reasons, some legit and some not legit, why the jerseys of superstars are sometimes different from the jerseys of common players. if you were trying, for example, to determine the proper tagging for 1990 rawlings jerseys would you seriously include ripkens, bonds, and mcgwires? why when you could instead use leonards, breams, and gallegos and eliminate a whole slew of issues that might easily distort the results?

2) for a long time it's appeared to me that mears would slap an A10 on something if it had an athlete's "game used" notation. of course, mears never made any sort of qualitative distinction between players like arod who slapped "game used" on anything and more discerning and honest players. namath slapped a "game used" on that SB3 helmet and we all saw how worthwhile that notation was. same deal with arod and bonds. from some players, a "game used" notation means nothing.

3) i'd like to see dave's results with HOF'er jerseys removed. out of all of the jerseys mentioned in dave's report, the ONLY one without blue lines that's a common jersey is lee walls. haney, mccatty, drago, aviles, kearny, drumright all had blue lines. the ones without blue lines? yaz, rice, jackson, fingers, ryan, fisk.

for the purpose of finding out the most accurate, plausible answers, i think it behooves everyone to leave out the superstar jerseys.

rudy.

[1986&2004Bosox]

rudy that is crazzy, to eliminate a segment of the jerseys because it was a star player? Who's to say that stars did not get different tagging from commons? There are examples of miss tagged years in all sports, missing patches on jerseys. Stars who wore shirt's that were 2 plus years old, recycled jerseys. A jersey should be evaluated on it's own merrits not someone conteniton about tag borders or eliminate the superstatrs. So in your theory how would you evaluate a jersey of a superstar. What would be your base point?

[suicide_squeeze]

rudy that is crazzy, to eliminate a segment of the jerseys because it was a star player? Who's to say that stars did not get different tagging from commons?

So in your theory how would you evaluate a jersey of a superstar. What would be your base point?


I can tell you how I WOULDN'T base who is a superstar and who isn't......

I wouldn't allow a jersey manufacturer make the decision for the baseball world by determining which player gets the blue lines, and which don't.....like you have just suggested as a possibility.

Again, the "defense attorney" arguments just keep coming. Do anything to create "reasonable doubt".

It DOES, however, make sense that there would be a LOT of the "superstar" players jerseys floating aroung because they were being reproduced by the manufacturer for sale to the public from retail stores.

Why? Because the superstars are popular, and they would sell.

Rudy's "theory" holds water.

And that's just my opinion.

[1986&2004Bosox]

So then the shirt direct from Yaz to his agent is a fake lack of blue border? the blue bordered lynn that according to ruddy is wrong sizw again direct from yaz to his agent is a fake becaue lynn wore a 44 and it is a 42.

Jerseys aviable for public sale at retails stores? No one ever remembers this as something that was done.

Mr. Lewis has refused to provide MEARS with the order sheets he claims to have. Why? If he has info that is helpful to the hobby why not give it to the largest evaluator in the hobby to help them make the right call?

If borderless tags became the norm in 1980 then why are their 81 blue borders?

[aeneas01]

i say pound the books - or the net. must be some conclusive photo evidence lurking out there somewhere. no smoking guns here but you get the idea...

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y238/aeneas1/zgubb12.jpg

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y238/aeneas1/zgubb05-1.jpg

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y238/aeneas1/zgubb06-1.jpg

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y238/aeneas1/zgubb07-1.jpg

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y238/aeneas1/zgubb10-1.jpg

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y238/aeneas1/zgubb08-1.jpg

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y238/aeneas1/zgubb09-1.jpg

for that guu kc fan....

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y238/aeneas1/zgubb11-1.jpg

....

[kingjammy24]

rudy that is crazzy, to eliminate a segment of the jerseys because it was a star player? Who's to say that stars did not get different tagging from commons? There are examples of miss tagged years in all sports, missing patches on jerseys. Stars who wore shirt's that were 2 plus years old, recycled jerseys. A jersey should be evaluated on it's own merrits not someone conteniton about tag borders or eliminate the superstatrs. So in your theory how would you evaluate a jersey of a superstar. What would be your base point?

you're only eliminating the segment for the sole purpose of determining what the tagging should be. what's so crazy about that? whatever conclusion lon and mears and others come to, you want to be able to accept and have faith in the results right? you don't want this turning into some florida voting debacle. well the fact is if you base your results heavily on HOF jerseys, there'll be people who'll rightfully question the accuracy of the findings so why not pre-emptively dispel such things by using only common players?

lots of superstar jerseys do have the same tagging as common players. and many don't. how and why would you set up the arduous process of sifting through all of that if you don't have to? what possible benefit does throwing HOF jerseys into the mix add? it's a lot of risk for no benefit at all.

it's a long held theory by many in this hobby that if you want to find out how a jersey "should be", you look at a common player. ie: a player who has little to no risk of being faked. a player who didn't order a ton of jerseys for the sole sake of charities, give aways, replacing stolen shirts, etc. you want a textbook example and many times superstar HOFers aren't textbook examples. some are and some aren't. you'd need to sift out each one and why would you add more work to this whole process? if i wanted to know the proper, textbook tagging for the 1990 A's, i'd look at gallego, blankenship, lansford, javier, honeycutt. what possible benefit, for the sole purpose of trying to ascertain tagging, would throwing mcgwire and canseco into the mix add? so i can then spend hours more on top of it all trying to determine if i even have legit mcgwires and cansecos to start with? the odds of a blankenship being faked are almost nil. the odds of a mcgwire being faked are extremely high. but you want to throw it into the mix anyway..why? just to make things even harder? just to reduce the odds of coming to an accurate conclusion? or just because you enjoy doing more than is necessary?


So in your theory how would you evaluate a jersey of a superstar. What would be your base point?

this isn't about evaluating superstar jerseys is it? this is about determining whether mcauliffe sold retail shirts and whether those shirts had different tagging than pro shirts.

to answer your question anyway, i'd evaluate the jersey of a superstar once i already had an accurate baseline for the tagging, which at this point doesn't seem that we do in regards to mcauliffe. if i was evaluating a mcgwire then i'd only do so after knowing how the blankenship, honeycutt, and gallego were tagged. the baseline, as held by many in this hobby,
should the common player shirt, not the superstar for obvious reasons.

rudy.

[1986&2004Bosox]

king i will respectfully disagree as we have seen no rhyme or reason to the tagging and MEARS excuse Dave M of Mears admits as much in the post on the website today. In which he states that retail's (if they do exist) in his opinion can have both blue bordered tags or non blue bordered tags. The only constant is that there is no constant in regards to McAuliffe tagging.

Your argument is flawed you have to evaluate each jersey Superstar or common on the same factors so a Walt Wise or a Jose Canseco A's should both be held to the same standard.

Just as a McAuliffe Yaz or a McAuliffe Reggie Cleveland should both be evaluated under the same standard.

Your position that it would take to much time is laughable that's what research is.

Also the long held theory of :


"look at a common player to see how a jersey should be tagged" does not hold water.

Case in point common player David Pauley, Devern Hanseck, Mike Stanton Red Sox jerseys all lacked the strip tag that 2005-current Red Sox jerseys have yet all were road shirts and all were late season call ups or trades, all were purchased from the team and all have the 0062 was tag.

Since they are commons that lack the strip tag should all 2005, 2006, 2007, 2008 Red Sox Jerseys lack the strip tag? If that were the case then all stripped tagged shirts would be fakes correct?

There is no certainity in the hobby in regards to tagging. Font, color, material yes but tagging no.

[kingjammy24]

"So then the shirt direct from Yaz to his agent is a fake lack of blue border? the blue bordered lynn that according to ruddy is wrong sizw again direct from yaz to his agent is a fake becaue lynn wore a 44 and it is a 42."

i have no clue about those shirts but what shirt that was "given to his agent" are you talking about? miedema said the shirt was "gifted by Yaz to close friend and longtime show promoter Dick Gordon". are you referring to some other shirt? anyway, like i said, i don't know about those shirts but it wouldn't shock me if a player gave a show promoter a retail shirt. yaz probably had a lot of people asking for his shirts just like stars always do. did everyone who asked yaz for a shirt get one of his gamers? or did yaz keep a bunch of retail shirts on hand to give out when people asked? either way why even have this discussion when instead you could just use common player jerseys whom practically noone asked for their shirts?

"Jerseys aviable for public sale at retails stores? No one ever remembers this as something that was done."

in his 3.0 guide, bill henderson writes about how in the 70s, fans could get "team spec" jerseys from the teams local lettering shop. bill writes "I recall seeing the availability of authentic, new Wilson Phillies jerseys offered through Phillies' sponsor Gold Medal Sporting Goods stores for the first time in about 1977. Delivered plain, with no player number or name affixed, one could be special ordered for $70..Lettering was $20 extra and took an additional month or more.."

"Mr. Lewis has refused to provide MEARS with the order sheets he claims to have. Why? If he has info that is helpful to the hobby why not give it to the largest evaluator in the hobby to help them make the right call?"

MEARS isn't the largest evaulator in the hobby. they have 1 auction house contract. lou lampson has at least 5. secondly, MEARS is a profit-making endeavor that charges the collecting community for access to it's information. the better question then would be why would lon hand over, for free, the order sheets to a firm that's then going to turn around and profit from them? incidentally, lon has shared the info with private collectors.

i once asked MEARS simply if they had worked on a certain jersey. i didn't ask for the evaluation or any other info. i simply wanted to know if they had examined a certain shirt. the answer i received? don't ask for that type of info. given their response, there isn't a single shred of information i'd be willing to share with MEARS. if i want to help the hobby, i can share it for free on GUF with other collectors who've gladly helped me for free. sharing info with MEARS isn't helping the hobby as much as it's helping MEARS turn a buck. count me out.

rudy.

[kingjammy24]

"Your argument is flawed you have to evaluate each jersey Superstar or common on the same factors so a Walt Wise or a Jose Canseco A's should both be held to the same standard."

and how do you accurately figure out what those standards should be?

"Just as a McAuliffe Yaz or a McAuliffe Reggie Cleveland should both be evaluated under the same standard."

i never once implied that superstar jerseys should be evaluated under a different set of standards. rather, i simply spoke of how to determine accurate baselines. that's all. can you see the difference?

"Case in point common player David Pauley, Devern Hanseck, Mike Stanton Red Sox jerseys all lacked the strip tag that 2005-current Red Sox jerseys have yet all were road shirts and all were late season call ups or trades, all were purchased from the team and all have the 0062 was tag.
Since they are commons that lack the strip tag should all 2005, 2006, 2007, 2008 Red Sox Jerseys lack the strip tag? If that were the case then all stripped tagged shirts would be fakes correct?"

there is absolutely no way you've got anywhere near 20 yrs in this hobby. jesus H. in the example you gave, anyone with at least half an ounce of common sense, in trying to evaluate proper tagging for '05 red sox NON-SPARE shirts would obviously not base anything on 3 late-season call-ups. are you for real? if you wanted to figure out how the sox tagged their NON-SPARE shirts why on earth would you use SPARE shirts? you wouldn't. you'd only look at common players who'd been on the roster since spring training. i can see now why lon has given up on you and at this point, i'm going to follow his lead.

rudy.

[kingjammy24]

Also the long held theory of :

"look at a common player to see how a jersey should be tagged" does not hold water.

Case in point common player David Pauley, Devern Hanseck, Mike Stanton Red Sox jerseys all lacked the strip tag that 2005-current Red Sox jerseys have yet all were road shirts and all were late season call ups or trades, all were purchased from the team and all have the 0062 was tag.

Since they are commons that lack the strip tag should all 2005, 2006, 2007, 2008 Red Sox Jerseys lack the strip tag? If that were the case then all stripped tagged shirts would be fakes correct?

when most people in this hobby would attempt to ascertain the tagging for a full-roster player they wouldn't be stupid enough to use callups/trades.

to ascertain the tagging on a full-roster player, they'd look at the tagging of COMMON full-roster players. to ascertain the tagging on callups/trades, they'd look at the tagging on COMMON callups/trades. apples to apples and oranges to oranges.

now i concur that when i used the term "common player" i didn't qualify it by saying that a further distinction should be made between full-roster players and callups/trades because i'd made the assumption that most already knew this basic piece of info and weren't completely braindead. your "case in point" rebuttal to this long-held theory assumes that people are blithering idiots who are clueless to the fact that you don't compare spare jerseys with non-spares.

rudy.

[1986&2004Bosox]

King for new collectors uneducated board members etc, I am giving an example of how no theory is 100 % correct. In regards to a common players jersey you need to let people know that even then there is tagging that is not consistent, as some late season call ups and trades are tagged in the same way as players who have been with the team the whole season and others are not tagged the same way.

In regards with how to set a standard if you cant set a standard then you should not evaluate a jersey.

It should not matter weather or not you are using a star or a common to determine if a shirt is legitimate and tagged properly that's the error in your argument. A universal standard need's to be established to evaluate and then there are factors that go into evaluating each shirt on it's own merits.

The Red Sox factor was brought up to show that even in today's collecting marketplace not all shirts are tagged the same way.

You and Mr.Lewis seems to want to say that things are this way or that way when even Mr. Medina of MEARS has admitted that no conclusion can be drawn at this point in regards to the McAuliffe tags, and MR. Grob feels that futher information is need as there are examples of blue bordered shirts that Mr. Medina feels are retails.

It is laughable that Mr. Lewis will not provide the order records he states he has to MEARS to try and provide the collecting community with more research material. If Mr.Lewis has the records and is concerned with cleaning up the hobby why not provide what he has to allow the authenticators and auctions hopuses to have the information they need to represent a piece in the correct way?

Fact of the matter is borderless tag McAuliffe are a tag varation nothing more as evident by numerous examples within the hobby that range from coaches to superstars.

[1986&2004Bosox]

king it seems as thought there are blithering idiots in this hobby everywhere. When you make a statement you can't make a blanket statement you have to break it down and allow for the possibility of items that don't match up 100% to what the baseline is but are still actually game used or worn.

[mbrieve]

King for new collectors uneducated board members etc, I am giving an example of how no theory is 100 % correct. In regards to a common players jersey you need to let people know that even then there is tagging that is not consistent, as some late season call ups and trades are tagged in the same way as players who have been with the team the whole season and others are not tagged the same way.

In regards with how to set a standard if you cant set a standard then you should not evaluate a jersey.

It should not matter weather or not you are using a star or a common to determine if a shirt is legitimate and tagged properly that's the error in your argument. A universal standard need's to be established to evaluate and then there are factors that go into evaluating each shirt on it's own merits.

The Red Sox factor was brought up to show that even in today's collecting marketplace not all shirts are tagged the same way.

You and Mr.Lewis seems to want to say that things are this way or that way when even Mr. Medina of MEARS has admitted that no conclusion can be drawn at this point in regards to the McAuliffe tags, and MR. Grob feels that futher information is need as there are examples of blue bordered shirts that Mr. Medina feels are retails.

It is laughable that Mr. Lewis will not provide the order records he states he has to MEARS to try and provide the collecting community with more research material. If Mr.Lewis has the records and is concerned with cleaning up the hobby why not provide what he has to allow the authenticators and auctions hopuses to have the information they need to represent a piece in the correct way?

Fact of the matter is borderless tag McAuliffe are a tag varation nothing more as evident by numerous examples within the hobby that range from coaches to superstars.
You don't even read Rudy's posts before responding, do you?

[kingjammy24]

You don't even read Rudy's posts before responding, do you?

my favorite:

me: "how do you accurately figure out what those standards should be?"
eric: "In regards with how to set a standard if you cant set a standard then you should not evaluate a jersey."

the word "how" threw him. Q: how do i peel an apple? A: if you can't peel an apple then you shouldn't peel an apple. #@! brilliant.

HOW eric. HOW do you set a standard? let's say you're a collector and you're trying to determine how 1990 A's NON-SPARE jerseys should be tagged. HOW do you do this? again, the imperative word in that sentence is "how". in determining what the tagging should be for 1990 A's NON-SPARE shirts do you:

a) examine full-roster common players?
b) examine full-roster common players AND full-roster superstars?

all i want to see in your next post is 1 letter; either A or B. that's it. type A or type B. pretend your keyboard only has 2 letters. after you've typed your letter, look at it. is your letter an A or is it a B? if the letter you typed is B, then elaborate what benefits B has over A.

rudy.

[1986&2004Bosox]

Was in the middle of typing mine when Rudy posted his. Also there is nothing in my post that he did not say himself. You need to be clear in your posts. Not make generalized blanket statements. You need to realize their are new collectors. It's funny I bring to light an issue that still no long time hobbyist can prove regarding the borderless jerseys and people want to get mad at me. Even Dave Medina's research only brought more questions and no answers and now the feeling that blue border jerseys could also be retails? Funny I thought blue bordered jerseys were 100% gamers well at least accoarding to Mr. Lewis. When are we all just going to admit that it is a tag vartaion and that there is no evidence of it being anything more than that?

[karamaxjoe]

I'm pretty sure Rudy is asking for someone to give us a decent sample of a common Red Sox jersey without the blue border tags in the 70's. If you include star players in your research, the experiment is not as accurate. We can make a better assumption that Red Sox fans in the mid 70's were not running over to the McAulife store for a Jim Willoughby, Bob Bailey or Doug Griffin jersey. It's extremley likely that if McAulife was selling jerseys to the public, the first shirts going out the door were Yaz, Fisk, Lynn and Rice. Once we have a decent selection of commons, the stars can be included.

[1986&2004Bosox]

b. as only taking a portion of the sample or eliminating the stars serves no purpose.

The standard should be based upon all known examples. Then you look at each shirt individually an account for variations. You can't just say a common A's is tagged this way so all A's shirts should be. That is irresponsible and incomplete research. If there are 75 1990 A's examples to chose from you look at all 75 regardless of the player and then make your conclusion.

[1986&2004Bosox]

karamaxjoe how many non blue bordered shirts exist? That would be the better test? If there are an equal number of non bordered vs bordered than what would that mean? I dont care if it is a star or a common we have seen examples of both stars and commons without the border. We have seen no evidence of being able to order direct from McAuliffe and until that is proven to be the case then the only conclusion that can be drawn is it is a tag variation.

[karamaxjoe]

karamaxjoe how many non blue bordered shirts exist? That would be the better test? If there are an equal number of non bordered vs bordered than what would that mean? I dont care if it is a star or a common we have seen examples of both stars and commons without the border.

At this point it doesn't matter how many blue bordered shirts exist. I would like to see some common Red Sox borderless tagged shirts. Does anyone on the forum have any? Produce some common playered blue borderless tagged shirts and you'll sway this entire arguement your way.

[1986&2004Bosox]

Since Dave M has gone back and forth back and forth I would like him to explain the LOA he wrote for the 1977 Yaz jersey that lacks a blue border that
Jim Carvalleo posted for sale on GUU in Jan 2008.

Dave last week you trusted Lon Lewis on lack of blue border, however it appears as though in Jan of 2008 or eariler depending upon when the LOA was written you did not. What changed your mind?

[beantown]

At this point it doesn't matter how many blue bordered shirts exist. I would like to see some common Red Sox borderless tagged shirts. Does anyone on the forum have any? Produce some common playered blue borderless tagged shirts and you'll sway this entire arguement your way.

I am still looking for common player Red Sox blue borderless jerseys, but came across this one...was Tony Armas considered a "star" in 1980?

http://www.lelands.com/bid.aspx?auctionid=509&lot=224 (http://www.lelands.com/bid.aspx?auctionid=509&lot=224)

Lelands past auctions has some common jerseys of Red Sox players, but no close ups of the tags...

[1986&2004Bosox]

beantown search Yastrzemski on this site look at the 77 Yaz borderless WITH DAVE MEDINA COA. Dave seemed sure last week that lack of blue border was a retail and sided with Lon Lewis, guess Dave M forgot that he wrote a letter on the Yaz.

[flaco1801]

that armas shirt looks brand new

[Moustache Gang]

Flaco,

I currently owned that Armas jersey as I was the high bidder on the Lelands auction. I would say on a scale of:
Brand new 1,
Light use 2,3,4,
Medium use 5,6,7 and
Heavy use 8,9,10

I would rate the jersey a solid 4.

The jersey has some small stains that are mostly in the tail and some on the back near the number. All tags show medium puckering and the back #11 has puckering as well.

Again, as I compare this jersey to my other 50+ McAuliffe A's knits it exhibits light to medium use.

Mark

[beantown]

beantown search Yastrzemski on this site look at the 77 Yaz borderless WITH DAVE MEDINA COA. Dave seemed sure last week that lack of blue border was a retail and sided with Lon Lewis, guess Dave M forgot that he wrote a letter on the Yaz.

http://www.gameuseduniverse.com/vb_forum/showthread.php?t=13456&highlight=Yastrzemski

Interesting...:rolleyes:

[Moustache Gang]

Forum Members.

I cannot tell as Lelands did not take a photo of the tagging in the top of the shirt, but they have a 1978 Mike Torrez, McAuliffe grey knit on their website. It is very hard to tell, but if you blow it up it appears to look like a non-blue border tag. Would most of us call Torrez a common player or maybe I do not know my Red Sox players??

Sorry all I collect are A's McAuliffe jerseys, but I would not put Torrez in the same category with Lynn, Rice, Yaz and Fisk.

Mark



http://72.37.159.45/App_Themes/Images/Auctions_Images/405/thumbnails/19160.jpg (http://www.lelands.com/App_Themes/Images/Auctions_Images/405/popups/19160.jpg)

[kingjammy24]

b. as only taking a portion of the sample or eliminating the stars serves no purpose.

greatly reducing the chance of fakes seems to be pretty important purpose if the point is to arrive at an accurate conclusion.

if we tossed in all the HOFers, like you suggest, then how would you deal with the substantial risk of fakes contaminating the results? let me guess, you'd just weed the fakes out right? good luck. of course not a single one would slip by you. i can't think of a single individual with a perfect track record but then i guess we've never seen you in action. myself, i think a few might get past me which is why i wouldn't want to chance it. even if 1 or 2 got past me, the results would be skewed and the experiment trashed. i agree that your system would work if some perfect genius manages to catch every single one of the fakes. nice odds. mears tossed some HOFers into the mix in their analysis. this being the same firm that A10'd several horrific bonds shirts so i'm definitely sure that they'd be able to catch each and every fake yaz, fisk, and reggie that came their way right?

and then when your results come out how do you address all the folks like me saying that it's possible that some fake HOFers slipped by you and skewed the results? "oh no, i caught them all. trust me".

or you could just entirely avoid that risk and use only commons. if you evaluated some gallegos, honeycutts, blankenships, bordicks, howitts, and lansfords, i'd say you'd have a very good idea of how the 1990 A's tagged their non-spare shirts. if you tossed in a mcgwire your accuracy wouldn't increase. all you'd do is run the risk of screwing the whole thing up because a fake got past you. plus, those results wouldn't be questioned by others as they would if HOFers had been used.

ultimately, i realize that having this discussion with a guy currently trying to sell a borderless fred lynn is like trying to explain how tasty a pulled pork sandwich is to a pig. "It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his job depends on not understanding it". a man with skin in the game usually isn't the most objective in the room. on that note, if mears, hypothetically speaking, comes to the eventual conclusion that borderless tags were for retail shirts, what are they going to do about all of the borderless jerseys they've already authenticated? announce a big buyback program? and on that note, how is mears only now investigating this issue after they've already authenticated many mcauliffe shirts? they don't know if mcauliffe made retail shirts and, if they did, how to tell them apart but they went ahead and declared themselves fit to authenticate mcauliffe shirts? isn't that the sort of basic info you learn before you start printing out the LOAs? how's it work at mears..authenticate the shirt first and then learn the difference between pro and retail?

i don't know which way the pendulum is going to swing here. i just hope that whatever conclusion is reached is the right one. i just wanted to put forth the idea that excluding star HOFers would be a wise thing to do in terms of reaching an accurate conclusion. if people can round up a whole slew of common gamers with borderless tags then i think it'd carry a ton of weight. personally, as a collector, i wouldn't put much stock into tag, font, or stitching analysis that focused heavily on HOF jerseys.

rudy.

[kingjammy24]

some more from lelands. borderless and bordered:

http://www.lelands.com/bid.aspx?auctionid=611&lot=696

http://www.lelands.com/bid.aspx?auctionid=509&lot=224

http://www.lelands.com/bid.aspx?auctionid=412&lot=549

http://www.lelands.com/bid.aspx?auctionid=712&lot=153

http://www.lelands.com/bid.aspx?auctionid=707&lot=123

http://www.lelands.com/bid.aspx?auctionid=611&lot=640

rudy.

[1986&2004Bosox]

Rudy that's like saying lets evaluate an artist but lets not use their best painting.

Your argument is insane, ask an individual involved in the field of stat's you cant do what you are saying you have to use all known examples.

If you are an authenticator you have to be able to stand behind your work HOF or common player. Why not throw out all the Ruth and Cobb bats when evaluating H&B's?

Stop taking pot shots about me, you no nothing about me.

I have simply pointed out that Mr.Lewis has no evidence, experts have concluded that borderless jerseys are gamers and Mr. Medina himself wrote a letter on a 77 Yaz borderless home jersey that Jim Carvello posted for sale on the board, now Dave M has done a 180.

Finally read the damn post Rudy I said if I was proven wrong I would try and help people with borderless get a refund. This is not about me being right it is about proof and so far not one damn bit of evidence has surrfaced to back Mr.Lewis position.

This has nothing to do with skin in the game as you put it, it has to do with people being able to prove their statements by more than word of mouth or my personal favorite

" you were not around back then but trust me they did it"

well I wasn't around for alot of things but most events have facts to back their happening.

Also you hit the nail on the head if MEARS has already authenticated borderless as gamers the standard has been set.

I would love to hear about the A10 items that have been proven to be wrong do you have examples?

[kingjammy24]

really. this is it. it's gone from amusing to painfully ludicrous.

"Rudy that's like saying lets evaluate an artist but lets not use their best painting."

so in this apples-to-oranges comparison, you've already made the assumption that the best painting you have on hand is legit. do you comprehend that ascertaining legitimacy of "known samples" was my sticking point? you've just blown right by that and assumed that you'll be able to suss out every single bogus yaz and jackson and that the "best painting" is legit. IF all HOFer jerseys are legit, then obviously use them. big IF.

"Your argument is insane, ask an individual involved in the field of stat's you cant do what you are saying you have to use all known examples."

the problem you're having is with the idea of "known examples". again, seeing 50 yaz jerseys doesn't make them all "known examples" because you don't know which ones are legit. only legit shirts are "known examples" and my entire point is how to do you make sure you're only dealing with legit jerseys?

anyway, brush up on the statistical idea of representative samples. when a survey says "45% of americans prefer apples to oranges" they haven't actually interviewed every single known american to be able to make that claim.

"Why not throw out all the Ruth and Cobb bats when evaluating H&B's?"

the lack of common sense and apple-to-oranges comparisons are tiresome. bats are substantially harder to fake than jerseys so it's unnecessary to toss out superstars because the odds are pretty slim of a forger having their own lathe, cords of ash, and fake LVS branding iron. many on the other hand have sewing machines. retail bats are harder to doctor into "gamers" than retail jerseys are.

"experts have concluded that borderless jerseys are gamers"

experts? you mean mears? the same firm that in the past week announced they're going to begin to investigate the notion of retail mcauliffes? or lelands? if you believe lelands knows the answer to this whole border vs non-bordered issue then email them and get the answers. what are we waiting on lon for if lelands has it? in the same way you're demanding proof of lon, demand proof of lelands.

"..if MEARS has already authenticated borderless as gamers the standard has been set"

only for those gullible enough to think MEARS sets any standards.

"I would love to hear about the A10 items that have been proven to be wrong do you have examples?"

here you go old-timer. enjoy your standard-setters. maybe mears will add those bonds shirts to their database of how 2001 giants gamers should be tagged? gotta include the "best painting"!: http://www.gameuseduniverse.com/vb_forum/showthread.php?t=21500

you know how i know you don't have anywhere close to 20 yrs? because you have no clue who dave miedema is and keep calling him "mr. medina", you think henderson's guide is a "database", that MEARS sets standards, and that auction houses are experts. fortunately for me, that concludes my final response to you. i should've listened to lon and given up 10 posts ago. my apologies to the other members.

rudy.

[1986&2004Bosox]

Rudy my good christ you just dont get it. An authenticator's job is to figure out which jersey is legit and which is fake. You take ALL EXAMPLES of the Yaz, Jackson, Williams, The Mick, Joe D etc and then you compare them to each other and them against other examples of the team they played on from the same time frame. You don't eliminate the stars and hall of fame players to get your baseline you use all examples.

A know example does not mean a legitimate jersey a know example could be a known fake, you look at the good and the bad to make the correct assesment.

Rudy if auction houses, MEARS, and Henderson's are not valid resources in your mind that what do you suggest we as collectors use to evaluate a jersey? Do your howmework on your own I agree, however if MEARS, Hendersons, and auctions are not tools for research than what would you use?

A person's statement Mr. Lewis that borderless were sold to the public and that's that, when the person has not provided proof to back their statement.

Then another respected hobby veteran Dave M, say's that the blue border which was previously said to be a sign of a true gamer could be found in retails as well, and that the borderless could also just be a tag variation.

Come on Rudy the point of this post is to prove that no individual involved in the discussion has proof to back their theory just lots of he said she said.

Your right with LS holding auctions and Hunt selling old bat dies and examples of 125's that had inch markings that have been sanded off, bats are much harder to fake.

People are going to fake items no question about that. That has never been the point oif this topic. It has been to provide proof that borderless shirts are retails which has not been done.

Rudy you are made because you don't agree with me. Fine, however I have gone out of my way to say prove me wrong and Lon has not been able to.

Futhermore I provided an example of a 1977 borderless Yaz with Dave M letter gor sale on this board by Jim C link is in this thread, and asked Dave M why his position has now changed no response.

On the stats front we are not asking for a personal preference, we are looking hard data of known jerseys good or bad to determin what to look for when grading a shirt.

You have your position and stance which is fine but you refuse to look at the facts, and the fact is that you can not state borderless jersey are retail jerseys based upon the information that is out there.

[otismalibu]

I ain't no paid authenticator, but if I was trying to determine the general characteristics of a certain team's jerseys (from say a sample of 10 jerseys), I'd probably opt to exclude the superstar jerseys.

Why increase the odds of adding fakes to your sample?

Get a couple fakes in your "this is what an ABC jersey should probably look like" and you may find subsequent comparisons reeking of Lampsonian taint.

[lon lewis]

I had hoped to avoid this thread until I had all of the jerseys and invoices that I requested photo'd and posted that were aquired by individuals in the 70's and 80's directly from McAuliffe/Stall and Dean. It seems that Bosox for whatever reason has completely mis-stated and in some cases, outright lied about what I said in my little 3 line post almost 2 weeks ago. If you were to look at what I said, the words fake, retail, retail tags, borderless tags are retail jerseys, and all of the other crap attributed to me DO NOT appear. It also seems that according to Bosox, I'm supposed to turn over to MEARS all of the order sheets in my possesion. Just who the hell do you think you are to tell me what to do with my personal property? How do you know what I have or haven't already given to Dave Grob? It also seems Bosox feels that the McAuliffe records should be as readily available as the H&B records. Here's a news flash: H&B is still in business- McAuliffe for all practical purposes on the other hand, ceased in the '90's. So Bosox, here's an idea.If you want their records, got ahold of Marty and the Doc dust off the Delorean set the flux capacitor for 1985 drive to Brockton Mass and see what you can come up with. It seems by your posts that you're one of those "collectors" who has to have their work done for them all wrapped up in a nice shiny bow. How about maybe you get off of your lazy ass and do something on your own instead of criticizing what others come up with. I live 3000 miles from the former McAuliffe location and I came up with my stuff, you supposedly live in the Boston area which is a 30 minute drive from there and you're clueless as to what went on back in the day. Either get your own info (pro or con on this issue) or stop with the snarky comments to those who have a contrary view to yours. I haven't posted anything that you call "proof" as yet mainly because I have to get the jerseys and invoices sent to me ( I can't just crap this stuff) not because I'm afraid of your challenge or can't get it. When what I have requested from the individuals arrives and is photo'd, believe me it'll be on here. You now have 2 choices the first is you can let this go for now and see what develops or the second choice is you can continue with the assinine tirades. Since I know what's coming in the near future I'd suggest you let it go. Finally, did you really think that I could take the position I did without knowing AT LEAST 1 person who did this? And did you really think that I couldn't come up with more jerseys than would be in your worst nightmare? I really don't expect you to buy into what I'll be posting because you'll whine if I put up 10 Lynn jerseys in his size that I should have put up 20 and that the invoices aren't filled out TO YOUR LIKING. But for the others on here it should prove useful. Until the day that all of this is ready I'm done with this thread unless you want to attribute more of your b.s. to me.

[kingjammy24]

tossing in HOFers only works if you'll spot every fake. as the 2001 A10 Bonds and tons of auction house errors show, you won't. noone has a 100% success rate. in the face of that empirical evidence then it'd be prudent to mitigate risk by excluding HOFers.

anyway, for those interested in this thread, i've re-read some of lon's comments and it's occurred to me that they seem to have been grossly misinterpreted. lon never stated or implied that all borderless tags were retail shirts. contrary to how eric has grossly twisted it all, it's not a black and white issue of border vs no-border. i don't want to put words in lon's mouth but from what i can see lon simply stated that:

a) stall & dean sold mcauliffe shirts to the public

b) these shirts would be tagged similarly to their pro counterparts

c) in the 80s retail shirts contained borderless tags

from i gather then, it'd be entirely possible to have a solid, legit '77 gamer with a borderless tag. (lon never said if it didn't have a border it was necessarily a retail shirt) it'd also be possible to have a retail shirt from '77 with a borderless tag. so how would you tell the difference? size. wear/use. hopefully i haven't misinterpreted anything but that's what i've read. this whole thing devolved into a "border=good, borderless=bad" pile of garbage.

eric, before you hit "reply" and start squawking about "proof! proof! where be the proof!" calm yourself. lon stated he's in the process of gathering proof and it'll likely take him around 30 days.

rudy.

[lon lewis]

Rudy, Unlike someone else,You haven't mis-interperted anything, that's pretty much it. If you were to see what I'm looking at right now here in this room, what I've said would be very apparent.

[Rob L]

rudy that is crazzy, to eliminate a segment of the jerseys because it was a star player? Who's to say that stars did not get different tagging from commons? There are examples of miss tagged years in all sports, missing patches on jerseys. Stars who wore shirt's that were 2 plus years old, recycled jerseys. A jersey should be evaluated on it's own merrits not someone conteniton about tag borders or eliminate the superstatrs. So in your theory how would you evaluate a jersey of a superstar. What would be your base point?

Of course it would be best to eliminate the superstars. Although the following thread relates to 1980s Goodman jerseys, it would likely apply to all brands that sold retail. From thread #14 of the following link:


http://www.gameuseduniverse.com/vb_forum/showthread.php?t=7088&page=2&highlight=reggie+jackson+jersey



Interesting discussion here on the Reggie Jackson Angels jersey. A few notes:

a. At the time indicated, 1993, Dick Dobbins told me that only a small percentage of the jerseys had original names on the back. I had him send me a list where he put a star next to the ones with the original names on back. I helped Dick identify a lot of the jerseys by providing weekly rosters so he could get the names restored on the backs. I also purchased a quantity of the jerseys from Dick, both with the original name panel and with restoration.
b. I have seen many of the Angels jerseys with restored names on back that came from Dick. The restoration work is very well done, about as good as it gets in my opinion. However, I would not use the term "perfect" to describe them. If they are held up to the light, there is always some place where the old stitching pattern can be seen from where the original name panels were removed from the backs. Over the years, I have asked approximately 10 people who have sold these restored jerseys at auction if they are restored. Not one has correctly told me that the jerseys were restored, even after I asked them to hold it up to the light and to check. All had restoration when I received them.
c. I put about six Wilson home Reggie Jackson jerseys on to the market back in the early to mid 1980's. Most were size 48, but I clearly recall size 46 also on a couple. The one I kept for myself was a size 47. The "47" is embroidered over a Wilson tag with a blank space for the size. I also had one Goodman & Sons road jersey, and it was size 48. I don't ever recall seeing an Angels size 44 for Reggie.
d. General word of caution I do not recall ever seeing discussed on this forum. Back in the mid 1980's, with 1985 and 1986 being the primary time I remember, there was a dealer out here in California that obviously had some kind of connection with Goodman & Sons. At the conventions or baseball card shows, they would set up large selections of Goodman & Sons jerseys from at least the Angels and Astros, although I recall there were other teams (perhaps Mets) where I had no interest. Of course, it was always the star jerseys over and over again. I cannot tell you how many road Goodman & Sons Angels of Jackson, Carew, Lynn, John, Sutton, DeCinces, Grich, Downing and the like that I saw at those shows. Unfortunately, there were also a lot of Nolan Ryan Astros. Goodman & Sons shirts had no special tagging, so there was no way to tell these shirts apart from what was actually used. To this day, there is no way to tell them apart. Many of you have probably noted a large number of road Angels of the stars over the years in the market in comparison to the home Angels. Also, a lot of Nolan Ryan Goodman & Sons jerseys from the Astros. I watched at these shows when one shirt was sold, and within minutes an identical one would be back out on sale. These included jerseys with the special patches like 1985 Angels and I believe 1986 Astros. One time I was even standing around looking at some of the jerseys at a show, and two of the Angels Stadium clubhouse employees walked up behind me. I knew who they were, but they did not know me. One said to the other that there was no way the Angels jerseys could be real. The other replied that if they were real, that neither of them would have jobs there any longer! I thought that was pretty funny. Bottom line, to this day, I will not touch any of the road Goodman & Sons Angels star jerseys from 1982-1986, and certainly not any of the Ryan Astros shirts from this general time period.

[aeneas01]

i don't want to put words in lon's mouth but from what i can see lon simply stated that:

a) stall & dean sold mcauliffe shirts to the public

b) these shirts would be tagged similarly to their pro counterparts

c) in the 80s retail shirts contained borderless tags



lon also stated the following...

1. "during the '70's and 80's anyone could obtain from McAuliffe/Stahl and Dean completely tagged jerseys of any of the teams that were produced..."

2. "after the '70's, those jerseys would as a general rule contain the borderless mfr tag..."

if this is the case wouldn't properly tagged jerseys WITH blue borders have been available to the public during the mid '70s to late '70s given that's the type of tag mcauliffe was producing at the time? and if this is the case, doesn't that muddy the water even more as far as retail purchased vs game issued jerseys from that period are concerned?

btw i think this is a very interesting discussion. but i don't understand how anyone could possibly not grasp the notion of setting aside jerseys worn by big name players (read: jerseys that undoubtedly sold in much greater numbers at the retail level, jerseys that would fetch the most at auction today) for the sake of this particular analysis. the painting and stats analogies are absurd and have nothing to do with this sort of approach.

....

[Marichal27]

Does anyone think that McAullife would put in a differt tag, say borderless, instead of their normal tag, with borders, during this time frame? Whether it was a jersey you could purchase directly from McAullife or a game used one. You could not tell the difference, as long as you knew the players sizes, as an example. The answer is no. They were not the size company such as Rawlings or Wilson etc. They were a fairly small company in their day. Stall and Dean made the jerseys, and McAullife sold them.

[lon lewis]

Robert, You're half right in your anaylisis. The blue bordered tags were available on the jerseys made for public order. I have asked for some of those to be included in the jerseys to be sent here for my little project. And yes, that does muddy the waters even further. I have some of the aftermarket jerseys here and let me tell you if I didn't know where these came from even I would have a pretty hard time with distinguishing between real and non. Where you are 1/2 wrong is the same place everyone seems to get off the tracks and that is that unlike today, there was NO "retail" operation involved here. Just like their major league counterparts, each jersey was custom made at the time of the order. No blanks, no racks of pre-made jerseys, nothing. You had to specify what you wanted at the time of the order. Then your jersey would be made up for you. Its as simple as that.

For Rob L. In your repeat post on the Dobbins restored Angels jerseys, you note that while the restoration was good, you could still see, when held up to the light the old stitch marks. Since I was the one who did them, I'll let you in an a little secret: That was intentional and on Dick Dobbins orders since some of the first jerseys had the stitch marks removed (by me) and were being sold as all original. This was his way of hopefully putting a stop to this practice. I hope that this clears that up.

[1986&2004Bosox]

Mr. Lewis if you would like me to post the content of the emails you sent me with regards to your statement that I will quote below I will be happy to do so.


"If you were to look at what I said, the words fake, retail, retail tags, borderless tags are retail jerseys, and all of the other crap attributed to me DO NOT appear."

Your correct they don't appear in your post to the board they do however appear in your emails which I would be happy to forward to Dave Grob or Troy and allow them to confirm as much.

Secondly in regards to your turning over the order sheets to MEARS/Mr. Grob, Troy informed that MEARS has made numerous offers to purchase the sheets and you have declined to do so. If you want to help the hobby why not do so buy giving the lead company in the field access to your records?

Your comment again quoted below Mr. Lewis is laughable and borders on slander. I have never once made a personal attack against and have gone out of my way to be professional. To make that comment is just sad.

"How about maybe you get off of your lazy ass and do something on your own instead of criticizing what others come up with. I live 3000 miles from the former McAuliffe location and I came up with my stuff, you supposedly live in the Boston area which is a 30 minute drive from there and you're clueless as to what went on back in the day"

This next quote listed below is priceless Mr. Lewis when you consider that just a few sentences later you contradict yourself.


"It also seems Bosox feels that the McAuliffe records should be as readily available as the H&B records. Here's a news flash: H&B is still in business- McAuliffe for all practical purposes on the other hand, ceased in the '90's. So Bosox, here's an idea.If you want their records, got ahold of Marty and the Doc dust off the Delorean set the flux capacitor for 1985 drive to Brockton Mass and see what you can come up with. It seems by your posts that you're one of those "collectors" who has to have their work done for them all wrapped up in a nice shiny bow."

So on the one hand Mr. Lewis say that the records are not aviable and that we need a time machine to get them and then a few sentences later we get this quote.

"Either get your own info (pro or con on this issue) or stop with the snarky comments to those who have a contrary view to yours. I haven't posted anything that you call "proof" as yet mainly because I have to get the jerseys and invoices sent to me ( I can't just crap this stuff) not because I'm afraid of your challenge or can't get it."

No it seems as though Mr.Lewis has access to invoice's? I thought records did not exist and we needed to get in the Delorean to get them?

Also in this day and age of digital cameras, camera, phones, fax, scanners, skype how long does it take to get the information?

This final quote is the best. As nothing I have said regarding Mr. Lewis is BS as I have his emails and would be happy to provide them to Dave Grob so he can review. If one person who accoarding to Mr. Lewis ordered jerseys for his softball team in 1987 is the basis for the borderless tag theory than excusse me for not putting much faith behind it.

"Finally, did you really think that I could take the position I did without knowing AT LEAST 1 person who did this? And did you really think that I couldn't come up with more jerseys than would be in your worst nightmare? I really don't expect you to buy into what I'll be posting because you'll whine if I put up 10 Lynn jerseys in his size that I should have put up 20 and that the invoices aren't filled out TO YOUR LIKING. But for the others on here it should prove useful. Until the day that all of this is ready I'm done with this thread unless you want to attribute more of your b.s. to me."

Mr. Lewis I look forward to you posting your info and showing the board 10 examples of Fred Lynn shirt's that you feel ar retail jerseys. I hope to see the info sooner rather than later.

[1986&2004Bosox]

I am done trying to reason with the board the fact of the matter is Mr.Lewis him self just stated on the board that Blue bordered jerseys were also sold to the public that means short of a 100 % photo match there is no way to state if any shirt is a gamer or a retail. The whole argument centered around borderless tags now that is not the factor that you can use to tell if a shirt is a gamer or a retail so what is? If a shirt could be custom ordered which still has yet to be proven then anyone could order a Yaz in Yaz's correct size and thus you have now way to tell the difference?

[Marichal27]

Does anyone think that McAullife would put in a differt tag, say borderless, instead of their normal tag, with borders, during this time frame? Whether it was a jersey you could purchase directly from McAullife or a game used one. You could not tell the difference, as long as you knew the players sizes, as an example. The answer is no. They were not the size company such as Rawlings or Wilson etc. They were a fairly small company in their day. Stall and Dean made the jerseys, and McAullife sold them.
....In fact, at least in the early '70's, Wilson would make up a jersey to your specs as well. You can ask Lon Lewis more about that. Wilson had an "outlet" for lack of better words, in San Francisco, and I'm sure in other cities as well.

[Marichal27]

I am done trying to reason with the board the fact of the matter is Mr.Lewis him self just stated on the board that Blue bordered jerseys were also sold to the public that means short of a 100 % photo match there is no way to state if any shirt is a gamer or a retail. The whole argument centered around borderless tags now that is not the factor that you can use to tell if a shirt is a gamer or a retail so what is? If a shirt could be custom ordered which still has yet to be proven then anyone could order a Yaz in Yaz's correct size and thus you have now way to tell the difference?

If I were you, I'd wait for the results you don't expect. Nobody can reason w/you. Lon and I didn't graduate from college just last year. Both of us, especially Lon, knew Dick Dobbins, who is the GOD of jersey Heaven. They spent tons of hours when Dick was selling Giants, Angels, Expos, and who knows what else jerseys. Lon knows his stuff. Believe me.

[suicide_squeeze]

GREAT thread......read every word along the way.

Looking forward to Lon's info....

One thing, however.

Now, when I'm in my kitchen and kind of getting some hunger pangs......when I look at the apples and oranges in my fruit bowl to make up my mind..........I just end up all confused and get an upset stomach.


I don't hink I'll ever be able to eat a piece of fruit again until I hear from Lon.


On a more serious note......I would strongly suggest to any of the new readers to read these heated threads. The obvious usually becomes clear.

Rudy......I have to say, I have had my best laughs reading your posts. You're as electric in your writings as Manny is at the plate in a Dodger uniform......well, at least from 2008.:p Your common sense is your overwhelmingly best trait, among many others I might add, and there are collectors here who could learn a LOT from you just by following your leads. It is laughable to read some comments about you....like you don't "get it". That's like looking into a clear crystal glass full of red wine, and asking where the green grapes that made the wine came from.

Some people can't hit the ocean jumping out of a boat in deep sea.

I like to think I am pretty well equipped in the common sense arena too, but I appreciate your posts. At worst, you illicit thought that obviously is escaping some of the other members. That's what this is all about....a learning experience for all of us....with the main goal to help educate the group as a whole. That can only enhance everyone's collecting knowledge, and make it a better hobby for all involved.

And hopefully help them make better purchasing decisions.

Thank you Rudy.....sincerely.

Regards,

Steve

[1986&2004Bosox]

Gentlemen the whole theory of the post was that lack of blue border equals retail, now Mr. Lewis state's that is not the case and the public could order blue bordered jerseys as well . If that is the case then there is now way to tell the difference between a retail and a gamer and if there is no way to tell then how can he make the statement he made that lack of a blue border equals a retail?

The fact of the matter is no one can say 100% one way or another.

[lon lewis]

Bosox, You can forward whatever you like to your contacts (I doubt that they even know who or what you are) at MEARS. Did you think that would scare me? Post them here but post them EXACTLY as they were written and don't change anything then everyone will see that YOU were the only one who used those terms. I checked them line by line or didn't you think I'd still have them? Of course if you post them here, people will find out what a total fraud you are in your statements. As far as Troy offering me money for the order sheets that's another of your b.s statements as I have NEVER had even 1 conversation with him on any subject period! So now either you're lying or he is (if he actually made that comment) Which is it? Now do I have to explain what NEVER means or do you actually comprehend what the word means? Regarding the McAuliffe records I was referencing the companies records not what some individual may have. Actually, I didn't think that anyone would have kept their individual invoices from 25+ years ago but apparently some did. If you had actually read my original post you would have noted as others have, that I said that jerseys ordered after the '70's as a general rule would have the borderless tag. Apparently you can't reason out that jerseys before that as a general rule did have the bordered tag. Or is that too difficult to grasp? As far as having to wait for the jerseys and invoices to show up I'm working on other peoples schedules not yours. You seem to think that everyone has to respond to you in the way you want and in the time you want well,too bad since this is my project on my time and money I'll do it my way. If that's not good enough for you, as I said get off of your lazy ass and get your own invoices and jerseys. Oh that's right those things (jerseys) don't exist according to you. Next, to really show how far out there you are, you want to see Fred Lynn jerseys that I FEEL are "retail"? I KNOW THEY'RE "RETAIL" THEY'RE SUPPOSED TO BE "RETAIL" THAT'S THE POINT OF THE WHOLE EXERCISE! Your last comment that the theory of the post was that the borderless tag equalled retail. The Original start of this thread was on the tag itself not what YOU turned it into with your absolute nonsense.

[soxbats]

Hey Bosox, I don't know you and I don't know Lon. I understand about being passionate and defending your jersey but please, give us all a break and let Lon put together his evidence and present it. Regardless of outcome it will be a huge asset to all jersey and non jersey collectors on the site. The constant picking and demanding simply undermines your arguments. You don't agree with Lon, you have asked Lon for an explanation and he agreed to do it.

The great part about this forum is that people like Lon, Aneas and others are willing to take the time and share their analysis. That doesn't mean that its always perfect, but it is highly educational and at least should be listened to.

My one other thought with all of this is that establishing hard and fast rules that cover each and every situation are difficult to near impossible in this hobby. Even the vaunted H&B records that you have identified are not perfect. Also, particularly in the 70s, people did not pay attention to uniform tagging like they do today so the experiences of people like Lon and others are invaluable.

[1986&2004Bosox]

Ron you have turned this into absolute nonsense. MEARS knows who I am, I have bought many items from them and sold many items to them over the years.

I forwarded the info to Mr. Grob for review as I am tired of the conversation and how your position keeps changing.

Now IN YOUR OWN WORDS, YOU SAY IF YOU DID NOT KNOW THE SOURCE OF THE JERSEY YOU COULD NOT TELL THE DIFFERENCE.

If you cant tell the difference how can you make any statements regarding the tagging of jerseys that you dont know the source of?

Troy did make that exact statement via an email. So I guess you are calling Troy and myself a liar.

Mr.Lewis I never once attacked you, never got personal, never questioned your expertise, I asked for proof, which you said did not exist now magically it does. However the proof does not prove anything as the tagging on a gamer could be the same as a retail?

The Lynn jersey is a 77 borderless, you keep bringing up the 80ties aftermarket as borderless jerseys this is a 77 shirt that started all of this and your statement was that borderless equals retail now you stay that is not the case and that retails or gamers could have either tag.

Take a stand one way or another thats what I am asking please don't kkeping changing your position.

[1986&2004Bosox]

Soxbats I am more than willing to let Lon post his findings what I am not willing to do is sit back silently and let Mr.Lewis make statements that directly contradict his previous statements.

Mr Lewis can not say in one breath that the lack of a blue border equals a retail shirt then in another say that a blue bordered shirt could also be a retail, as if that is the case there is no way to determin the difference between the two. That has been the whole argument that has been the issue at hand.

I am asking Mr. lewis to clarify his statements as we should not have to wait a month for him to clarify a statement he made to the board today.

It is either

A. Blue Border equals gamer for 75-79 as Mr.lewis say blue border were in full swing by 75

B. Blue border could be both retail and gamer 75-79

C Both borderless and blue border are gamers 75-79

D. Both Borderless and blue border are retails 75-79

At this point Mr. Lewis say that borderless tags are a 1980ties style, but in another statement says that the 77 borderless Lynn is a retail.

Just clarify the statement. Thats all

[aeneas01]

Robert, You're half right in your anaylisis. The blue bordered tags were available on the jerseys made for public order. I have asked for some of those to be included in the jerseys to be sent here for my little project. And yes, that does muddy the waters even further. I have some of the aftermarket jerseys here and let me tell you if I didn't know where these came from even I would have a pretty hard time with distinguishing between real and non. Where you are 1/2 wrong is the same place everyone seems to get off the tracks and that is that unlike today, there was NO "retail" operation involved here. Just like their major league counterparts, each jersey was custom made at the time of the order. No blanks, no racks of pre-made jerseys, nothing. You had to specify what you wanted at the time of the order. Then your jersey would be made up for you. Its as simple as that.

gotcha lon - then the following amended post would be more accurate?

------------------------

lon also stated the following...

1. "during the '70's and 80's anyone could obtain from McAuliffe/Stahl and Dean completely tagged jerseys of any of the teams that were produced..."

2. "after the '70's, those jerseys would as a general rule contain the borderless mfr tag..."

if this is the case wouldn't properly tagged jerseys WITH blue borders have been available to non-team sources as well during the mid '70s to late '70s given that's the type of tag mcauliffe / stahl and dean were producing at the time? and if this is indeed the case, doesn't that further muddy the water given that a custom order purchased by a non-team source, a fan or a sporting goods store for example, would closely (exactly?) match orders placed by teams?

------------------------

btw lon i don't know how this thread took off in some of the directions it did given your first post/reply on page one. seems that some either didn't read your post, didn't comprehend your post or simply decided to make up things as they went along...

...

[aeneas01]

anyway, for those interested in this thread, i've re-read some of lon's comments and it's occurred to me that they seem to have been grossly misinterpreted. lon never stated or implied that all borderless tags were retail shirts. contrary to how eric has grossly twisted it all, it's not a black and white issue of border vs no-border. i don't want to put words in lon's mouth but from what i can see lon simply stated that:

a) stall & dean sold mcauliffe shirts to the public

b) these shirts would be tagged similarly to their pro counterparts

c) in the 80s retail shirts contained borderless tags

from i gather then, it'd be entirely possible to have a solid, legit '77 gamer with a borderless tag. (lon never said if it didn't have a border it was necessarily a retail shirt) it'd also be possible to have a retail shirt from '77 with a borderless tag. so how would you tell the difference? size. wear/use. hopefully i haven't misinterpreted anything but that's what i've read. this whole thing devolved into a "border=good, borderless=bad" pile of garbage.

lon stated "The blue border tags actually made their first appearance in 1974, and were in full production in 1975." this would imply that blue bordered tags replaced their borderless counterparts and that by 1975 the changeover was all but complete. unless, of course, lon is saying that mcauliffe rolled out blue bordered tags in 1974 and intended to use these new tags along with their borderless tags - but i don't think that's what lon is saying - seems to me that lon is simply stating that the blue bordered tags replaced the borderless tags around that time.

if this is the case, then i think there would indeed be a problem with a 1977 team-purchased (authentic) jersey with a borderless tag assuming mcauliffe did introduce a complete changeover as lon suggests.

perhaps mcauliffe opted to use borderless tags for their custom non-team orders during that time in order to simply deplete their borderless tag inventory. perhaps mcauliffe realized that if they used their blue bordered tags for custom non-team jobs they would exhaust their supply and therefore used old stock borderless tags for custom non-team jobs. perhaps the blue bordered tags were used for custom non-team jobs if the buyer noticed the difference and made it a point to specifically ask for blue bordered tags. who knows.

...

[suave1477]

I Just Want To Say I Gave Up Reading This Thread After About The 5th Page!!! Lol Lol:d

but This Thread Hs To Be Setting A Record For One Of The Longest Threads On Guu Lol Lol:d

[lon lewis]

Robert, You're essentially correct. As I said previously, when I look at the jerseys that have been sent here so far, in most of the cases it would be hard for even me, if I didn't know the source to tell real from non. In this instance hard doesn't mean impossible it just means that the normal way of doing things won't work.

[aeneas01]

even if you're not into jerseys i think this thread is very informative and a great read. further it's littered with gems that are sure to make you shoot your coffee through your nose...

---------------------

1986&2004Bosox

- Also you hit the nail on the head if MEARS has already authenticated borderless as gamers the standard has been set.

- Rudy if auction houses, MEARS, and Henderson's are not valid resources in your mind that what do you suggest we as collectors use to evaluate a jersey?

- It is laughable that Mr. Lewis will not provide the order records he states he has to MEARS to try and provide the collecting community with more research material. (one of my personal favorites!)

rudy

- the word "how" threw him. Q: how do i peel an apple? A: if you can't peel an apple then you shouldn't peel an apple. #@! brilliant.

- ultimately, i realize that having this discussion with a guy currently trying to sell a borderless fred lynn is like trying to explain how tasty a pulled pork sandwich is to a pig. "It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his job depends on not understanding it"

- on that note, if mears, hypothetically speaking, comes to the eventual conclusion that borderless tags were for retail shirts, what are they going to do about all of the borderless jerseys they've already authenticated? announce a big buyback program? and on that note, how is mears only now investigating this issue after they've already authenticated many mcauliffe shirts? they don't know if mcauliffe made retail shirts and, if they did, how to tell them apart but they went ahead and declared themselves fit to authenticate mcauliffe shirts? isn't that the sort of basic info you learn before you start printing out the LOAs? how's it work at mears..authenticate the shirt first and then learn the difference between pro and retail?

- anyway, brush up on the statistical idea of representative samples. when a survey says "45% of americans prefer apples to oranges" they haven't actually interviewed every single known american to be able to make that claim.

- the odds are pretty slim of a forger having their own lathe, cords of ash, and fake LVS branding iron.

experts? you mean mears? the same firm that in the past week announced they're going to begin to investigate the notion of retail mcauliffes?

...

[aeneas01]

Robert, You're essentially correct. As I said previously, when I look at the jerseys that have been sent here so far, in most of the cases it would be hard for even me, if I didn't know the source to tell real from non. In this instance hard doesn't mean impossible it just means that the normal way of doing things won't work.

i know exactly what you mean lon...

...

[lon lewis]

Suave, I don't blame you.

Bosox, your comments are once again way off of the mark as usual. At no point has my position changed. The only one who has said that the borderless tags are retail only is YOU and then you have tried to put that out there as my statement. You know it and I know it and fortunately for me, anyone who is actually reading what I originally posted, is learning what you've done. As far as Troy is concerned, you claim that he emailed you that he had tried to purchase the order sheets from me. Let me repeat, I have had no commiunication with him of any sort on any subject. NONE. NADA, ZIP, ZILCH or any other word you can think of. So as I said before, either you're lying or he is (if indeed he made that statement). It doesn't matter which. Once again if you actually read my post to Robert you'd notice that I said that it would be "HARD" to tell the difference betweeen the real and non jerseys I did NOT say it was impossible or couldn't be done. Regarding the personal attacks don't play the innocent game. You started this with your page after monotonous page of mis-statements and lies attributed to me. I let it go until your nonsense began to spread outside the friendly confines of this forum. What did you expect would happen next? Finally the name is Lon not Ron you can't even get that right anymore.

[Vintagedeputy]

aeneas - you hit the nail on the head! This one below about the pig made me blow a piece of fried shrimp out of my mouth!



even if you're not into jerseys i think this thread is very informative and a great read. further it's littered with gems that are sure to make you shoot your coffee through your nose...

---------------------


rudy

- ultimately, i realize that having this discussion with a guy currently trying to sell a borderless fred lynn is like trying to explain how tasty a pulled pork sandwich is to a pig. "It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his job depends on not understanding it"

[Rob L]

So, is anyone interested in purchasing this jersey?

[suicide_squeeze]

aeneas - you hit the nail on the head! This one below about the pig made me blow a piece of fried shrimp out of my mouth!

.....Was definately my personal favorite too Vintage :D

[suicide_squeeze]

So, is anyone interested in purchasing this jersey?

.......Knowing that it's HIGHLY likely to be a custom-ordered retail jersey?

I'm sure there are a few guys out there that would like it? Just not my cup of tea.

[beantown]

So, is anyone interested in purchasing this jersey?


I am the original poster on this topic and yes, I PURCHASED this jersey yesterday!

I met Eric in person on two occasions had some very nice conversations about his collection, the provenance on this jersey along with other Red Sox jerseys and physically examined this jersey...I am comfortable with it.

Does it show the same amout of wear .vs the '75 in GF or the '76 in Lelands? No......but it does show wear. Moreover, I have been collecting Lynn Game Used Jerseys for quite some time...other than the '77 that is a size 42 and signed; "My Gamer"...this is the only other '77 I have personally seen on the memorabilia market.

I appreciate the information that Mr. Lon Lewis has provided directly to me and it aided in my decision to buy the jersey...all the Lynn jerseys I have in my collection are a size 44 and Mr. Lewis confirmed Lynn wore/ordered a size 44 during '75-'78. Here are some of my other Lynn jerseys from later in his career.

On one last note, Eric has offered to do something for me with this Lynn jersey...hopefully it will happen...if and when it does, I will post pictures...

Chris

[1986&2004Bosox]

Mr. Lewis you might want to go and read your post's.


Let me remind you what you said. As you state you never mention retail jerseys and borderless tags. First from 3/5 at 6:36 and then from 7:30 pm yesterday.

3/5 6:36

"Beantown, The blue border tags actually made their first appearance in 1974, and were in full production in 1975. Without getting into the legitimacy of the jersey shown, it should be noted that during the '70's and 80's anyone could obtain from McAuliffe/Stahl and Dean completely tagged jerseys of any of the teams that were produced by that company and after the '70's, those jerseys would as a general rule contain the borderless mfr tag"

3/16 7:30

" The only one who has said that the borderless tags are retail only is YOU and then you have tried to put that out there as my statement.


"Next, to really show how far out there you are, you want to see Fred Lynn jerseys that I FEEL are "retail"? I KNOW THEY'RE "RETAIL" THEY'RE SUPPOSED TO BE "RETAIL" THAT'S THE POINT OF THE WHOLE EXERCISE! Your last comment that the theory of the post was that the borderless tag equalled retail. The Original start of this thread was on the tag itself not what YOU turned it into with your absolute nonsense."

Are you sure you want to say that you did not say borderless are retails, or excuse me could be ordered by the public to use your terms.

Lon I have not misrepresented anything you said. Now you state that the borderless tag is not the way to tell the difference between a "retail" my term and a gamer and that it would be hard but not impossible to tell the difference?

Lets agree to disagree Lon as in the end all that's going to come of this is more questions than answers and we will be no better off then where we started.

[ironmanfan]

Beantown...not to add more distractions to this thread, but I don't think that Orioles home/white of Lynn is good..maybe another post would be good for that subject

[beantown]

Beantown...not to add more distractions to this thread, but I don't think that Orioles home/white of Lynn is good..maybe another post would be good for that subject


would you care to elaborate on your "opinion"?

[eisenreich8]

That would be intriguing. To me it seems there may be tagging on the inside of the front tail?? That's a solid clue to authenticity. Seen it before.

[suicide_squeeze]

I am the original poster on this topic and yes, I PURCHASED this jersey yesterday!

I met Eric in person on two occasions had some very nice conversations about his collection, the provenance on this jersey along with other Red Sox jerseys and physically examined this jersey...I am comfortable with it.

Does it show the same amout of wear .vs the '75 in GF or the '76 in Lelands? No......but it does show wear. Moreover, I have been collecting Lynn Game Used Jerseys for quite some time...other than the '77 that is a size 42 and signed; "My Gamer"...this is the only other '77 I have personally seen on the memorabilia market.

I appreciate the information that Mr. Lon Lewis has provided directly to me and it aided in my decision to buy the jersey...all the Lynn jerseys I have in my collection are a size 44 and Mr. Lewis confirmed Lynn wore/ordered a size 44 during '75-'78. Here are some of my other Lynn jerseys from later in his career.

On one last note, Eric has offered to do something for me with this Lynn jersey...hopefully it will happen...if and when it does, I will post pictures...

Chris


WOW.

And this, folks......is proof positive that you can lead a horse to water, lift him in the air with a harness and boom, tie him up in a manner so he can't move, turn him upside-down, and POUR THE FREAKING WATER DOWN HIS THROAT......and once you release the water-deprivated horse......he'll still spit it out! Good luck in your continued collection Chris. Something tells me you you are going to need luck.

Look, Bosox....you don't even know what Ron....I MEAN Lon!.....is going to come up with as back-up to his position. Essentially, you have completely and thoroughly dug the whole you have consciously chosen too....just to consummate a sale on this jersey. I truthfully honestly hope it works out to your (and Chris's) favor, as no one wants to see anybody crash and burn here. We are all here to help eachother.

That said, let's just hope it isn't that 6-foot deep kind of hole that would properly accomodate your coffin....because that limb your hanging from just snapped, and you're in a free fall.

For.....I don't know.......around 30 days or so?

The only question remaining is......are you a cat that will land on your feet, or will the plunge land you in that crater you dug?

Good luck to all involved. Glad I'm not.

[lon lewis]

Bosox, As is your typical m.o. you managed to take 2 seperate issues and combine them together in an effort to try and mislead people on them. First, where did you get the idea I said I never mentioned borderless tags? how else would you describe a tag with no border? Border omitted perhaps? What you've done is to leave off the other 2 words in the sentence which were "are retail' You know the part when I said I I didn't use the words "fake", "retail"' and "borderless tags are retail" and we were then on your post threatening to publish our emails of 3/5. Which if you note I told you to go ahead and publish them to whoever you want as long as you published the exact email. I WAS RESPONDING TO THAT ISSUE/POST. Now you bring up an entirely different post/ comment with the "They're supposed to be retail" part, again I was responding in YOUR TERMS to your ridiculous comments on a totally different post and subject. I'd suggest that you stop trying to intentionally post my comments out of context to prove some untenable position on your part. The fact that you've aparently sold the jersey that started all of this, to a person who feels comfortable and in an ironic twist, appears to be crediting me with helping him to make his decision. The fact that I didn't even call your jersey into question here seems to have escaped you. In the end, that should be good enough for you.

[R. C. Walker]

The End . . . .

[aeneas01]

WOW.

And this, folks......is proof positive that you can lead a horse to water, lift him in the air with a harness and boom, tie him up in a manner so he can't move, turn him upside-down, and POUR THE FREAKING WATER DOWN HIS THROAT......and once you release the water-deprivated horse......he'll still spit it out! Good luck in your continued collection Chris. Something tells me you you are going to need luck.

i found this response ridiculously presumptuous and about as lucid as your rodney king reference/analogy. if you were trying to be comedic i think you missed badly...

...

[kingjammy24]

there's a world of difference between saying retail jerseys had borderless tags and saying ONLY retail jerseys had ONLY borderless tags. that difference seems to have escaped eric. lon said the former, he never said the latter.

as for lon's statement that in the 80s they public received borderless tags, the public were the only ones receiving any mcauliffe jerseys in the 80s as mcauliffe stopped supplying the majors after 1980 so every shirt after that would necessarily be considered "retail" regardless of any borders.

re: concurrence
it seems to me that BOTH bordered and borderless tags were used concurrently during the 70s.

aside from that, at this point, i'm failing to see how or why this is even an issue of border vs borderless. from lon's words, i see that he said that mcauliffe made no differentiation between retail and pro tagging, meaning that mcauliffe didn't use ONLY borderless tags to indicate retail jerseys ONLY. "the wrong size and the borderless tag is the first sign the jersey may be an aftermarket jersey."

the only salient points in this entire thing are:

1) mcauliffe tagged all levels of their baseball shirts - pro, minor league, high school, etc., the same way.

2) stall & dean sold mcauliffe shirts to the public. eric doubts this and i believe that's what lon is gearing up to show.



3) these shirts, sold to the public, were tagged in the same way as the shirts delivered to major leaguers.

given those 3 issues, extra care would be needed to discern a yaz shirt ordered by joe q. public, for example, and a yaz gamer. size and use would be helpful factors. "..[I]if you knew the correct size - presto, instant game jersey".

if stall & dean were selling these shirts in the 70s and the bordered tag was in full production by 1975 and if S&D/mcauliffe made no hard distinction between retail and pro then doesn't that mean that the public could also receive bordered shirts in the 70s?

in my mind, this entire thing doesn't appear to be about borders at all but rather the fact that the public had access to the same shirts as the pros.

rudy.

[dcgreg25]

Chris AKA beantown, can you email me? I have a question completely unrelated to this thread I wanted to ask you. Thanks.

[1986&2004Bosox]

Am I the only one who read Lon's initial post in which he said that blue bordered tags were in full swing by 1975? That is what caused this whole issue Lon stating that post 1975 jerseys were blue bordered. Lon can back track make different statements every time I point out his contradictions. Everything I have posted has been taken directly from this board, Lon's own words.

Now Mr. Lewis stated yesterday without knowing the source of jerseys he considers to be retail he would have a hard time telling the difference between a retail and a gamer. Then he states you can't go about evaluating the jerseys in the normal way? What new method will be used?

Lon did question the Lynn Jersey by stating that post 75 gamers had the blue border now he has back tracked on that and said that even a retail can have the blue border.

Bottom line is because Mr. Lewis is a long time veteran of the hobby he is consider to be a good source and because the board does not know me I am questioned.

He has created more questions than answers, not once have I made a mean comment towards him, however he references Back to the Future and tells me to get off my lazzy ass. Mr. Lewis has only been asked to clarify his statements regarding the border issue which he still has yet to do.

suicide_squeeze your comments towards beantown are cruel and just down right wrong. You have no clue as to the extent of research beantown has done regarding his vast collection and what items are in it. It is a very impressive collection. He does not need luck in his collecting.

In regards to me I am not hanging on any limb waiting to fall. I have been at the forefront of trying to get an answer on the issue. If I am dangeling from a limb so is Dave M, Mears, and every auction house from Lelands, AMI, Robert Edwards, as all have evaluated and sold borderless post 75 jerseys as gamers.

Finally in regards to the sale of the shirt it does not mean a thing to me one way or the other, I brought other gamers from my large collection to show beantown and was only parting with the Lynn to ad some WS bats to my collection and because it was going to a hugh Lynn fan.

This topic has spun out of controll because Mr. Lewis has not clearified his statements regarding the tagging issue and exactly what a post 75 no blue border means to him.

[1986&2004Bosox]

King if that is the case then no McAuliffe jersey from this time frame should get a grade of higher than A5 from mears with direct player or team letter, as there seems to be no way to tell the difference.

The argument centered around the fact that post 1975 jerseys had the blue bordered tag, and the lack of a blue border meant "aftermarket". Now if that is not the case then what does the lack of a blue border mean in a 1977 shirt?

It means it is a tag varation which has been my argument the whole time, that there is no way to tell the difference, that there is no proof that shirts could be ordered and now even if there is proof that the shirts could be ordered there is no way to tell them apart as they are tagged the same way.

If that is the case that the public could order these shirts then wouldn't we see 100 of these jerseys in a vast amount of sizes and of numerous players in both home and road versions?

Mr. Lewis states on this board that if he did not know the source of the shirts that he considers to be retail, after market, custom whatever you want to call them he would have a hard time telling the difference. So what about the shirts he does not know the source of what factors will he use to figure those out, if they are tagged the same way as a gamer?

[lund6771]

Bosox...you may have the greatest intentions in the world...but if you are seeking answers, why display every single second of your thoughts in a public forum?

there are 130 something posts on this thread that could be refined to 3 or 4...

It sounds like you are on more of a soap box than seeking information....

I've only e-mailed with Lon a few times, but there is no doubt in my mind that he is a hobby expert in many niches...why not speak with him through e-mail instead of taking a few words and running with it and going crazy here?

there is a lot of valuable info that many people could LEARN from through Lon's experience and his access to info

why not kick back and see what he comes up with instead of turning this into a pissing match?...

Like many have posted to you; cruise around the internet, books, etc...find info and get answers to the info that you seek...

I wouldn't be surpised that if you spent half the time doing research, instead of creating controversy here, that you would have half of yur questions answered by now

[ironmanfan]

would you care to elaborate on your "opinion"?

Not so much opinion rather than fact (obvious), let me know if you'd rather have me post on here for ALL to learn or if you like to be schooled privately (your choice)...

Bill
whhp72@yahoo.com

[1986&2004Bosox]

Thats great lund6771 thanks for the advice. If anyone knew what collections have come to the market as a result of my efforts and research you might think differently.

Now I know why Dave Bushing left working as an authenticator.

I chose to go to this forum to point out the fact that just because someone is respected does not mean they are correct.

Mr. Lewis has made enough statements that contradict each other and if this was just emails between me and him those would not be brought to light.

Mr. Lewis should be held accountable for his position, should be able to clarify his statements, should be able to answer a question. That's all I have asked of Mr Lewis clarify his position and prove it. Don't say one thing in one breath and a different thing in another.

It is very easy the only thing I have asked Mr.Lewis to answer is the following.

Mr. Lewis what is a post 1975 McAuliffe borderless neck taged jersey in your opinion?

A. An after market, retail, custom whatever term you want to use

B. A gamer

C. Could it be both?

[lund6771]

If that is the case that the public could order these shirts then wouldn't we see 100 of these jerseys in a vast amount of sizes and of numerous players in both home and road versions?



As far as this comment goes, I can guarantee to you that they are buried in collections

I was at the National in the early 90's and must have seen 20 1989 Michael Jordan sand-knit jerseys with team letters...and that was in one room

where are they all now?....dried up in collections

[Vintagedeputy]

This thread has ceased to be useful.

[1986&2004Bosox]

you are entitled to your position vintage and I respect it. the intent of this board is to provide knowledge, help people locate items and provide fact. I hope this topic proves to be of some benefit in the long run.

[flaco1801]

Knowledge has been provided, some just have to argue about it.... if mr. lewis says that mcaullife shirt have been ordered by individuals as custom shirts, ya know what, i believe him without "proof". i would believe his word over any loa.. thats what ya get from being in this hobby,and being respected....RESPECT

[1986&2004Bosox]

Yeah Flaco1801 let's just take people at face value with no proof. That worked well for all the Madoff investors who trusted the former Wall street wiz kid. HE had a great rep, well respected and on paper made people millions. Just because someone has a great rep does not mean you follow that person, especially when they have made conflicting statements and have provided no proof to back their positoion. I am done posting, done responding. Done with this issue.

If Mr.Lewis wants me to post his first email in which his proof is a 1971 Indians jersey in Henderson's that he says was made in 1987, and the fact that he knows a guy who ordered softball shirts from stall and dean I will be happy to.
That's Lon's proof. I have forwarded that email to MEARS. My Intent was never to question Mr. Lewis hobby standing just ask for proof of which none has been supplied.

[soxbats]

If that is the case that the public could order these shirts then wouldn't we see 100 of these jerseys in a vast amount of sizes and of numerous players in both home and road versions?


I find this statement troubling on many levels. If you are going to persist in the constant flow of comments for all of us to digest let's try to apply some minimum common sense and do your own research.

I have the following questions/observations in response to your statement:

In 1975 how many people were interested in buying high end replica jerseys of star players? What was the cost? Given that there was no real game used collecting market, how many of these retail jerseys (presumably purchased by fans to wear to games) would have survived in a state possible for resale? How were the jerseys advertised to the public and were they even advertized or simply done by word of mouth? What were the production capabilities of the company at the time, could they have mass produced that many jerseys?

You are pounding people for allegedly throwing out baseless theories and then you offer up these types of gems. What you need is more information, not more words.

Your comment suggests that the retail avaialabilty theory cannot be true becuase, if it was, someone would have purchased hundreds of star jerseys and preserved them in 1975 knowing that some day, but certainly not that day or decade, they would make a killing on them. On the other hand, and I have no evidence of this but await Lon's analysis, is it plausible that people could order replica jerseys but that fact was neither widely known or widely desired which might explain why there are many but not hundreds of [insert star player name here] jerseys?

[flaco1801]

heres my take.... when you find a 70's era jersey, if it aint used, abused and just plain worn i would suspect... even the ball players themselves didnt think to keep their shirts although some may have purchased them from the club.. i remember ron taylor of the mets telling me he cant give balls away, they get charged... the 75 red sox jerseys were so abused the roads looked a pale white, i suspect from being in so many spring training games in florida...

[lon lewis]

This just gets better and better, If you insist on misleading everyone on what was said email or otherwise go ahead. Your latest is another example of it. The email in question which actually reads " The only tangible evidence ( other than finding someone who did order a jersey and having them admit it or show it) of being able to order jerseys with tagging comes from the Henderson guide which I've attached. It shows what he calls a "prototype" Cleveland Indians 1971 knit jersey. In fact it's a jersey ordered in 1987 and used by a member of a softball team in the Cleveland area. By coincidence I happen to know the individual who ordered the jerseys from Stahl and Dean for that team. My only reason to post originally was to answer the inquiry about the blue/borderless mfr tag.Like everything else posted on the forum, you're free to accept the information or dis-regard it that's your choice" This part of the email was in response to your email demand for "proof" the very day that I posted about tagging.Since I couldn't make the jerseys or any thing else you were demanding appear at that instant I used the best example I had available. To which at the end of your reply you say "Finally what does an individual who ordered a shirt from Stahl and Dean have to do with McAuliffe?" Brillliant response. And you really want me to tell you how to differentiate between these aftermarket jerseys and the real ones? You can't even grasp a 3 line post or quote me correctly. And I'm supposed to walk you through the complexities involved with this? I took the time to review all of your previous posts and as I suspected, you're a relative newbie to this (collecting) who wants someone else to do everything for you laid out in a nice neat package. But there was one thing in there that was really informative: "Like I said unless you can photomatch an item, just because a jersey is tagged the right way don't mean a damn thing. Even Mears all you are paying for is their opinion and what is that? It is them looking at photos and matching stuff up, we have all bought in to the theory that a Mears LOA or a Steiner Hologram is gold when the truth is all Steiner is is a sticker and all mears is a bunch of guys doing the same thing we could do with books and photos if we put in the same time and effort." recognize that ? that's you 01-18-2009 10:57 pm. My favorite part is the "just because a jersey is tagged the right way don't mean a damn thing." Gee, how times have changed in the past few weeks. There it is, your post warts and all unlike your cherry picking of my posts and emails. Face it, you're on the Titanic trying to bail with a coffee can.

[lon lewis]

This is for sox bats You have a pretty firm grip on the situation as it was back then. Not to many people took advantage of the situation in those days which is probably a good thing. Those who did, the majority of them still have those jerseys in their collections. On top of that, I think that if you had tried to order too many jerseys especially of the same star players at once Mr. Stall would have declined to accept the order. I do know that the ability to order the jerseys was discontinued except for a few selected individuals in the mid-late 80's after Mr Stall took note of a few of these jerseys entering the market and being sold as game worn.

[1986&2004Bosox]

yeah lon I am a newbie with 25 years of collecting who is college educated, who has brokered 6 figure deals between private collectors and prominent dealers, I havebrought to market some amazing private collections and items who has chosen to stay away from these stupid debates because individuals like you can't comprehend what you write and then try to say I miss represented you. You just posted the email that proves that you have no evidence that you are referencing a jersey that is tagged 1971 and state that it is from 1987.

I reference you exactly and you say I twist your word you just posted the email and your only proof is the henderson guide for an individual with 30 plus years who has restored 18,000 jerseys I would think you would have to have an extensive photo archive to be able to do appropiate research in order to do the restoration. With that info in hand what would take a month to gather?

Lon you are amazing regarding the 01-18-2009 post was an entierly different topic but thats fine, it was in reference to MEARS, Steiner, etc and the value we put behind their LOA's. I am done good luck Mr. Lewis and happy collecting.

[1986&2004Bosox]

Lon if you actually represent the thread the right way from January it was in reference to someone getting mad at a person for having clubhouse sources. I said that was laughable and that the only way to be 100 percent certain on an item is a photo match or getting it directly from the player.

But it's ok twist what I said, the tagging issue went back to how steiner said game worn and mlb said game issued and that the tagging on a shirt meant two different things to two different companies and that in this hobby there is no way to tell 100 % on an item unless you get a photo match or got it from the player but you need to trust your source. It also states that MEARS was just an opinion and steiner was just a sticker and we could do our own research.

It's not worth rehashing read that post if you care to but read the whole post and you will see it is not what Mr.lewis represents it to be.

[lon lewis]

The only amazing one here is you. Again the part you reference as having no proof is actually the entire reply or quote which as usual, you cut up for your own purposes. I didn't attach the page that I sent you because I figured it wasn't necessary but if you insist, here you go. If you're a college graduate, I'd look into a refund especially for the reading comprehension course. If I read your ridiculous comment about the restoration part correctly, you want me to have photographed all of the jerseys that I've done over the past 25 years and some how use that to illlustrate aftermarket jerseys that I didn't restore or haven't had pass through here? Are you kidding me? Also if you actually knew any thing about the restoration process you can't just go by a photo you need precise patterns , templates drawings, ect for each team. So why would I need to photo anything if I already have the pattterns templates and drawings? If you don't like my time frame for doing things, as I said why don't you do something about it yourself nobodys stopping you. Oh yeah, you can't function on your own in this environment with out someone else leading you by the hand every step of the way. As to the post that I quoted of yours, that is the entire post you made at the time word for word in that particular thread. It is indicative of your opinion just a few short weeks ago but it seems that your opinions change when you have a stake in the jersey. How strange. Good night and keep bailing.

[1986&2004Bosox]

Mr. Lewis my reading comprehension is fine. Your writing skills are lacking.

Your post is below. Your quote regarding the Henderson guide which you have also posted to the board in reference to the ordering of shirts by the public is what I am talking about.

You reference a 1971 jersey listed in Henderson and say that it was ordered in 1987 for a softball team? That's your proof of jerseys being sold to the public? A shirt with tags that are 16 years old ordered for a softball team 16 years later? You are joking correct? You don't read what you write then say I take what you wrote out of context. What am I missing what did I miss read or not understand? You exact words are as follow.

" The only tangible evidence ( other than finding someone who did order a jersey and having them admit it or show it) of being able to order jerseys with tagging comes from the Henderson guide which I've attached. It shows what he calls a "prototype" Cleveland Indians 1971 knit jersey. In fact it's a jersey ordered in 1987 and used by a member of a softball team in the Cleveland area. By coincidence I happen to know the individual who ordered the jerseys from Stahl and Dean for that team."

Finally go back and read the whole post Mr.Lewis from 1-18-2009. It is all there and the topic in question is clubhouse sources and trusting the tagging, holograms and opinions of authenticators and stating what they do is no better than what a collector could do.

The statement was that just because a shirt is tagged correctly that does not mean a damn thing, that was in reference to the fact that with out a photo match or direct provenance no jersey can be concluded to be a 100% game worn, but you also need to trust your source but again lon don't reference the thread and topic just pull it apart.

I have not done that once to you. I have referenced your exact words gone back thru ALL your post and pointed out your statements that contradict your previous statements.

I have not bailed once all i have ever asked you for is proof and still nothing. Don't you think there would be another board member who ordered a shirt directly if you could have done it? Also if it was profitable for McAuliffe why not make the fact that you could do this public? I don't know any business that is in business to not make as much money as they can.



Finally yes I do find it almost impossible for you to restore 18,000 jerseys in 25 years that averages 1.97 shirts each and every day 365 days a year for those 25 years. You state you need templates I agree completely and as such you need an example of the shirt to reference and create the patterns, templates, drawings.

As such wouldn't you have that reference material stored somewhere? Wouldn't you take notes about tagging, lettering, font size, material? Also most restorers take before and after photos of their work it could be a car, home, painting thats common place kind of a brag book so perspective clients can see your previous work.

I have functioned on my own for many years Mr.Lewis and uncovered everything from a Babe Ruth game used bat, to a Ted Williams complete uniform, to vintage 50ties HOF football jerseys, to WS rings, and a collection of vintage teens and 20ties programs, cards and tickets. All these items were located by do hours of research, hunting down leads and numerous hours spent on the phone and the road. I am no stranger to hard work I want nothing handed to me.

What I don't like is you throwing out statements that you have no proof to back.

It seems as if your pissed because I have questioned your statements and have asked you to clarify your current position and you have still yet to do that so I will ask one final time.

What does the lack of a blue border in the neck tag of a post 1975 McAuliffe jersey mean to you?

Is it

A. a aftermarket jersey
B. a game used jersey
C. could it be both


Simple question that you have not answered

I will pose the same question regarding a jersey that has a blue border in the neck tag. What does that mean to you?
Is it

A. a aftermarket jersey
B. a game used jersey
C. could it be both

I pose this question as you state that the blue border was in full swing by 1975. Thus I will not get into the transition year of 74 or any jerseys before that as they should be borderless based upon Mr. Lewis statements.

Just respond to those questions and your reason why you feel that way and then take as long as you want to provide your evidence to prove your point. I don't think that is asking to much.

[1986&2004Bosox]

Another Lon lewis gem regarding size of shirt as the way to tell the difference, but wait he states that a 42 could have been ordered but not on the order sheet. Give it up Lon you dont know how to tell the difference any better than anyone else.

" That was a typo on my part it should have read 1975-78. In 1975, the regular position players and some of the pitchers had 3 home and road uniforms ordered initially there was also an extra set ordered for the series. There also were 5 players who initially requested the patch worn in '75 to be on the right sleeve instead of the left. Have I seen Lynn jerseys without the border? sure just like Fisk, Yaz, Rice amazing coincidence huh? As far as the 42 is concerned, there are a couple of explanations. The first would be that a 42 was made up for him for whatever reason in addition to the regular order-no big deal as you could just use a blank extra and there you go. It wouldn't show up on the order sheet because it was a blank. Another scenario would be that this is a number changed jersey that Lynn signed "my gamer". Players rarely know which jerseys are really theirs. A third possibility is that that jersey is a minor league jersey with the number 19 on it and since McAuliffe/ Stahl and Dean routinely tagged the minor league jerseys with the same tagging. A number of these have popped up in the past few years and the only way to differentiate them is by size. Take your pick. Photo shoots, As a general rule during this time period the players would wear their actual jerseys for photo shoots and sometimes like for head shots,ect the team photog would just use a blank and have the players switch before each shot. With Lynn and the regular players having 3 sets most of the time it's hard to imagine the Sox ordering even more just for publicity purposes. Former employee claims: There is a chance that a front office type would have picked up some jerseys off of the E.M. but on the other hand, how hard do you think it would be for a front office type to order his own jerseys? Given the proximity of Stahl and Dean to Fenway, all that would have to happen is a phone call and a drive to pick it up where you could either pay a whopping $ 45.00 each or bill it to the club. I seem to remember that there were a number of Sox jerseys sold at auction in the last year or so and all purportedly came from a former Sox front office type. Since I no longer collect I'm glad that I don't have to sort through these issues of course back in the day, my main focus was the Giants. Bottom line: If it doesn't have the blue border after 1974 I would be skeptical but you would still have to consider the overall condition of the jersey if it shows repeated use/launderings that could indicate that the tagging is just an anomaly however, if the tags are crisp and new such as the neck tags on the Lynn and all of the tags on the Yaz that was pointed out, well I'd just pass."
Lon

[both-teams-played-hard]

Did you ask Lon a question about the Sox jerseys and this was his response? Seems like he outlined many possible scenarios. You asked a question, and he gave an answer. Did Lon try to sell you a jersey? If not, why is it his duty to authenticate your jersey? It appears he was friendly enough to give you a detailed reply.

[1986&2004Bosox]

Both Teams my problem is Lon's initial statement in this thread. If the email I just posted was his 1st post to the board I doubt this thread would have taken on the life it has.

If Mr. Lewis had posted this response with the numerous different scenarios he brings up instead of the post in which he states blue border tags were in full production by 1975, then I think we as a board all would have had very different info and as such would have been able to draw our own conclusions.

That conclusion in my case would have been based on the numerous factors Mr. Lewis mentioned he has no way to tell the shirts apart and that without proof of order sheets for these custom orders the issue is a tag varation, and until proven other wise can not considered to be anything more than that.

This whole thread got out of control based upon Mr. Lewis and original post regarding the fact that anyone could order jerseys direct from McAuliffe, and his stance that borderless were the norm in the 80ties and that all jerseys 1975 on pre 1980 should have should have a blue border.

The 77 Lynn jersey in question does not have the blue border so I have repeatedly ask Lon to address that topic and he has not. To make a statement that all 1975 jerseys should have the blue border to me means he has called in to question the Lynn shirt being a gamer.

He can state that he is not but what would you take it to mean if someone say all 1975 and pre 1980 jerseys should have a blue bordered tag? What conclusion would you draw from that statement?

Finally with players getting 3 jerseys home and 3 road per Mr. Lewis whats to say the player actually wore all 3? As his statement is regarding wear on a shirt, what if the player only wore 1 for the whole season and the other two shirts hung as spares in the locker?

Players have their favorite glove, bat, hat even in this day and age when players go thru equipment like water Trot Nixon and John Wettland both wore the same hat all season and had the WS patch put on that hat Wettland 1996 and Trot 2004 . Varitek, and Youk wore pants that were completely hammered and patched and stitched and those examples are 2005 and 2008.

Bottom line with McAuliffe shirts there is no way to tell the difference between a gamer and a custom, retail, aftermarket ( if customs did indeed exist), and Mr. lewis himself has stated as much when he stated if he did not know the source of the shirts he considers to be retails, custom, after market he would have a hard time telling them apart. Whats the source what are the jerseys in question?

It just seems to me as Mr. Lewis should not make a blanket statement pertaining to Mcauliffe tagging without evidence and proof to back it up. You cant say all 1975 to pre 80 McAuliffes should have the blue border neck tag and not expect someone to question where you come up with that position when there have been numerous examples of 1975-pre 80ties without the blue border.

Futhermore he then states that even custom orders had the blue bordered tag in the neck 1975-pre 80, so what conclusion would you draw based on that statement if you are looking at a 1977 jersey that has a borderless neck tag?

Take a stand Mr. Lewis tell us your position and then take the month to gather your evidence thats all I want. The questions were posted eariler respond to them and I will not post again till you post your findings next month.

[Rob L]

[quote=1986&2004Bosox;130013]Bottom line with McAuliffe shirts there is no way to tell the difference between a gamer and a custom, retail, aftermarket ( if customs did indeed exist), and Mr. lewis himself has stated as much when he stated if he did not know the source of the shirts he considers to be retails, custom, after market he would have a hard time telling them apart. Whats the source what are the jerseys in question?

[quote]

Based on that statement, did you sell this as a gamer or as a custom, retail or aftermarket shirt? As the seller, you must provide the burden of proof to the buyer.

[kingjammy24]

"Both Teams my problem is Lon's initial statement in this thread."

let's look at lon's original statement that caused you to implode.

"Beantown, The blue border tags actually made their first appearance in 1974, and were in full production in 1975. Without getting into the legitimacy of the jersey shown, it should be noted that during the '70's and 80's anyone could obtain from McAuliffe/Stahl and Dean completely tagged jerseys of any of the teams that were produced by that company and after the '70's, those jerseys would as a general rule contain the borderless mfr tag."

the specific line in that which caused you to go rabid was this: "..were in full production in 1975"

what exactly did lon mean that by "full production"? did he mean, as you clearly inferred, that "all jerseys 1975 on pre 1980 should have should have a blue border."? is that really what he meant? or is that what you inferred?

"To make a statement that all 1975 jerseys should have the blue border"

show me exactly where lon stated "all 1975 jerseys should have the blue border". don't show me the line where lon said blue borders were "in full production in 1975" because those two ideas are not identical. by lon stating they were in full production, your brain went into overdrive and thought "full production?! by golly lon must necessarily mean that mcauliffe used only blue borders in 1975+ and didn't use any borderless tags!".

"what would you take it to mean if someone say all 1975 and pre 1980 jerseys should have a blue bordered tag? What conclusion would you draw from that statement?"

lon never said all 1975 and pre 1980 jerseys should have a blue bordered tag. he said by 1975, blue bordered tags were "in full production". can you comprehend the difference?

your problem(s) go way beyond lon's original post. lon told me that when you two first emailed, he spent 8 hours answering your questions and that you pretty much ignored most everything he said. having interacted with you on different topics, i find that very easy to believe. you refused to believe that mcauliffe shirts were sold to the public so in response, lon says he'll get the evidence and that it'd take roughly 30 days. a sane, polite person would say "thanks lon. appreciate it. i'll wait till then". what did you say? that it wasn't good enough. too slow lon! i want it now! i shouldn't have to wait 30 days! use google and skype! despite lon saying at the very beginning it would take 30 days, this board has had to hear you squawk like sort of amnesiac parrot "there's no proof! still no proof!" every single @*&! day.

then you talk about "gems". the reply from lon that you posted seems thorough and honest. he doesn't paint some "borders=good, no borders=bad" scenario like you keep insisting he's done all this time. he points out several different scenarios, and simply concludes that "If it doesn't have the blue border after 1974 I would be skeptical but you would still have to consider the overall condition of the jersey if it shows repeated use/launderings that could indicate that the tagging is just an anomaly". he never said it was automatically bad. he simply said he'd be skeptical and "that the tagging is just an anomaly". you want real gems? these are my favorites:

"..wouldn't major auction houses know this and not make the same mistake for years?"

"what's the benefit to selling crap when there is enough great stuff to sell and make money on?"

"In regards with how to set a standard if you cant set a standard then you should not evaluate a jersey."

"MEARS has set a hobby standard by evaluation the 75 fisk as an 8"

"if we can go back to the 20ties for H&B how hard would it be to find records from the 70ties?"

i love that one a lot. eric compares the acquisition of records from a company while it still exists to the acquisition of records from a company years and years after it shut its doors. brilliant.

and the piece de resistance:

first: "would a company actually do that 35 plus years ago when there was no collector interest"

then: "If that is the case that the public could order these shirts then wouldn't we see 100 of these jerseys".

my heart goes out to lon. maybe he can get aspirin or tylenol to sponsor him after all this. "tylenol welcomes lon lewis, the man who had to respond to over 20 of eric's posts".

rudy.

[iceman13]

Rudy...great post.

[1986&2004Bosox]

Rob that statement about not being able to tell the difference is based on Lon's theory that retails did exist. Read my statement very carefully ( if customs really did exist). I have not seen any proof of this being the case.

I know the source of the shirt, so I am very confident with it being a gamer. Beantown has followed the thread and he is confident in the shirt as well, he has inspected it in person twice. Going so far as to measure the lettering size on the front of the shirt.

Also Mr. Stall got upset that custom shirts in the 80ties were being sold as game used, but continued to allow select individuals to purchase these shirts? If he was upset why not stop selling them all together? Why not make a statement in regards to it? Why didn't someone interview him for one of the trade magazines?

Stall & Dean still is in business and has a website, I have sent an email asking to see if any employees are still with the company that would have been there during the 70ties.

[no_scammers_allowed]

This reminds me of another thread that involved 1986&2004Bosox, posting there as Bubba77, on a different game used website regarding some altered Bruins jerseys:

http://www.gameworn.net/cgi-bin/GW/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=008686

It's probably worth the full read. I hate to stir the pot with this (I never get involved in these sorts of disputes) but I couldn't stand back and watch him continue to slam Rudy & Lon knowing this isn't the first time he's caused an issue. After all isn't this site about helping other GU collectors avoid pitfalls?

Remember, it's a relatively small hobby and people know each other.

Back to lurking.

[1986&2004Bosox]

King Lon spent maybe 20 minutes responding and a total of four emails.

You want me to send you the exact email where Lon state's that MEARS knows of the borderless tag issue and has chose to ignore it?

Where he states that borderless and wrong size are tell tale signs to him of a custom? Now Lon changes his stance and say's customs had blue tags as well?

Where he sates that 1974 was a transation year and that 1975 blue borders were in full production? What does full production mean to you?

Come on King you want to defend Lon fine but don't twist his point, don't say that full production does not mean that blue border shirts accoarding to Mr. Lewis are the way shirts should be 1975 to pre 80ties.

McAuliffe went out of business but since it was a product of Stall & Dean as Mr. Lewis has pointed out and Stall & Dean is still around why not start there for proof of these custom orders?

King good luck in your collecting, keep defending Mr. Lewis thats great that he has your support.

He has put a theory out there with numerous flaws and still I am the bad guy. All I have done is point out the contradictions he has made in his statements.

Now you Rudy want to get in to symantics of what full production means? Also if a player had 3 home and road shirts that means on average every 27 games they got a new jersey.

So if these customs were being bought to be worn to games and in softball leagues, and by high schools don't you think a jersey made out of the same material with the same tagging that was not a major league gamer would be destroyed after 32 years? That the guy, girl, kid wearing it would have sent it thru the wash more times than a major league gamer would have been washed?

That unlike a game jersey that was worn by a player that played a full season some where between 27 times if they had 3 shirts home and raod and swithched them out after an equal number of game or 81 if they wore the same shirt the whole season.

Don't you think that those jerseys would be pounded tags and letters falling off, ripped torn etc? But these so called custom, retail, aftermarket jerseys seem to be in perfect condition.

What about a shirt that has no alteration of any kind that has pounded,fadded lettering for team name and numbers but perfect crisp tagging? What determanation do you make on a jersey like that?

Look Lon could be the greatest guy in the world but I will not sit around and let him state one thing in one post and an email and another elsewhere.

All I have asked for from the start is proof of retail orders which I have said take as long as you would like to gather, but don't talk about a 1971 tagged Indians jersey in the Henderson guide and state it is a 1987 shirt as your proof. Right now all I would like for Mr. Lewis to do is clarify his position on the tagging issue, which I have outlined in a previous post.

It is an easy request.

[iceman13]

This reminds me of another thread that involved 1986&2004Bosox, posting there as Bubba77, on a different game used website regarding some altered Bruins jerseys:

http://www.gameworn.net/cgi-bin/GW/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=008686

It's probably worth the full read. I hate to stir the pot with this (I never get involved in these sorts of disputes) but I couldn't stand back and watch him continue to slam Rudy & Lon knowing this isn't the first time he's caused an issue. After all isn't this site about helping other GU collectors avoid pitfalls?

Remember, it's a relatively small hobby and people know each other.

Back to lurking.


The infamous Custom Crafted specials

[kingjammy24]

"Where he states that borderless and wrong size are tell tale signs to him of a custom? Now Lon changes his stance and say's customs had blue tags as well?"

lon stated that borderless and wrong size are tell tale signs of a custom. show me where he said borderless and wrong size are the ONLY tell-tale signs of a custom. how is it a change in stance if lon adds information but doesn't modify his original point? if i say "robbery is a crime" and then later i add "and so is murder" am i changing my original stance that robbery is a crime? changing his stance would involve lon saying "ok i was wrong, borderless and wrong size aren't signs of a custom". he simply said 1 thing and then later added information that didn't contradict his original statement.

"Come on King you want to defend Lon fine but don't twist his point, don't say that full production does not mean that blue border shirts accoarding to Mr. Lewis are the way shirts should be 1975 to pre 80ties."

wouldn't twisting his point be exactly what you're doing? that is, affixing your own meaning to "full production"? you accused lon of stating that "all 1975 jerseys should have the blue border". please show me where he said those exact words. you've accused him of saying that and yet i can't find any statement from him that says exactly that.

the truth is i don't know what lon meant by "full production" but unlike you, i wouldn't automatically assume the meaning. he said "full production" and you immediately affix your own interpretation and then accuse others of twisting words?

had i been in your shoes, instead of jumping the gun and assuming what he meant, my first reply to him would've been "lon, when you say "full production" does this mean that mcauliffe never used any borderless tags from '75-'79?". i would've had the common sense to ask lon to clarify his statement rather than assuming what he meant. "full production" is vague.
maybe lon is guilty of being somewhat vague in his original statement but that doesn't get you off the hook for pretending to know what he meant.

"Stall & Dean is still around why not start there for proof of these custom orders?"

excellent question. please let us know what you find out. after all, it's you selling this shirt, not lon or i. i'm just discussing this for interests sake. you're actually making money off this thing. its you who's responsible for doing everything you can to ensure its legitimacy. by the way, there's no reason i should wait 30 days for your results, especially in this age of google and skype. i expect your findings tomorrow. if you don't have them by tomorrow, i can safely assume that you found the records, didn't like what you saw and chose to hide it. don't tell me otherwise because i've got the ability to infer whatever i like. if you won't let me infer things, then i'll accuse you of changing your stance and twisting words.

"All I have done is point out the contradictions he has made in his statements."

no, all if you've done is misinterpret his words and then hold him to your misinterpretations. you keep saying that lon made the "statement that all 1975 jerseys should have the blue border" but i can't find any such statement. the specific statement you accused lon of making doesn't actually exist does it? the only thing that exists is lon stating they were "in full production". to you they're one in the same.

"Now you Rudy want to get in to symantics of what full production means?"

that's what this entire thing centers around! that's the actual phrase that caused all this and to you it's just semantics. "full production" is a vague term. how on earth do you purport to know exactly what lon meant and didn't mean by it if you didn't seek clarification on it? how do you purport to know exactly what "full production" means when i don't know exactly what lon meant? are you a mind-reader? or just someone who assumes without asking for clarification?

"Don't you think that those jerseys would be pounded tags and letters falling off, ripped torn etc? But these so called custom, retail, aftermarket jerseys seem to be in perfect condition."

assuming 100% of all the customs ordered were worn to death. assuming that no fans in boston ever ordered customs of their hometown heroes like yaz, lynn, fisk, and rice in order to hang in their dens for 20 years. in 1993, i ordered a retail canseco to be made up. i didn't order it from a store. i ordered it from a russell distributor 3000 miles away. i wore it for a total of 3 or 4 times, still have it, and it's in mint condition. i don't even think i've ever even washed it.

rudy.

[lund6771]

Bosox..

You've posted that you have 20+_ years of hobby experience and brokered major deals between dealers and collectors

If that's the case, then why did you post in the Gameworn forum that you are a newbie to collecting?...

Also in the gameworn.net forum you again were CLEARLY lying about the Bruins jerseys...Talking the jerseys up as the second coming of Christ, and also talking about sending pictures, and you didn't even have them yet?

Rabid is definitely the right word

[kingjammy24]

This reminds me of another thread that involved 1986&2004Bosox, posting there as Bubba77, on a different game used website regarding some altered Bruins jerseys:

http://www.gameworn.net/cgi-bin/GW/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=008686

in a private mail sent several days ago, mark weimerskirch was discussing this thread and referenced eric by his full name, "eric atkinson". the individual named on gameworn.net is also eric atkinson. i have to think they're the same person.

some gems from eric the guy who's got "25 yrs in the hobby". enjoy:
-----------------------------------------------------------
posted January 09, 2004

- "If he is an expert in the hobby WHY WOULKD HE CALL FAKES GAME ISSUE?"

- "Also what is the difference between game issue and game worn? I am a novice."

- "Was i trying to flip before i owned yes and is that wrong????????"

- "Well you know what auction houses sell BAD crap all day long. Lelands pulls stuff all the time from auction, so does ever other major auction house because errors are made"
----------------------------------------------------------

comments he made recently here:

"I am a newbie with 25 years of collecting.. who has brokered 6 figure deals between private collectors and prominent dealers, I have brought to market some amazing private collections and items"

"..wouldn't major auction houses know this and not make the same mistake for years?"

wow.

rudy.

[lon lewis]

This has to be the one of your most ridiculous positions yet. First you post an email that was in response to an email from "Chris Arone" who had asked some specific questions and then had asked about my thoughts on some fairly out there possibilities. As usual you took out what you thought would benefit you and managed to leave out what the questions were and my full responses were. When he had asked about the Lynn sizes in a previous email I had typed in 1976-78 for a year range instead of 75-78 and I was correcting that. Wow, there's a big gotcha. The fact that the "regular" players had one more complete uniform than most of the others doesn't mean that they would get a new one every 27 games it's just what was ordered. I could go into the reasoning behind this but you'd never comprehend it. As far as softball jerseys, high school jerseys and others, that was in reference to your dis-belief that anything but major league jerseys would be tagged in the manner of the Red Sox and A's. It's a pretty assinine assumption to think that all of the high school, college, softball and minor league teams are called the A's or Red Sox. But somehow you made that brilliant leap. For the final time It seems only you doubt the existence of the aftermarket jerseys and nothing is going to change that. Great, it must be nice to be in denial ( not the river in Egypt) Somewhere in this mess someone (probably you) wants to know why if Stall and Dean is still around you can't get the records.Well that's not the same Stall and Dean of the 60's 70's and 80's. The Stall and Dean that I reference was owned by Richard Stall and sold to what I think is still the current owner Russell McKinnon in 1997 the sale did not include the McAuliffe label/ Corp so that's probably a blind alley as it's a different owner, different location and a different mission. I no longer feel the need to keep correcting your intentional misrepresentations and quite frankly your arguments are tiresome. You've tried to run to Mears for support and they politely told you to take a hike, you've flailed about here dismissing everyone and everything. You want this and you want that, but you want someone else to do the work for you. You say you've done this and you've done that. As I have said to you in the past in emails do you really want to get into a resume contest with me? For now and until the "project" is complete I'm going to as they say "pursue other interests" so go ahead and post your inaccurate comments, tantrums and anything else you like. The people here know what 's going on with you. Keep bailing

[kingjammy24]

.. so I guess numerous advanced collectors threw away thousands on the yaz, and williams in lelands and that lelands knowingly sold bad items?

hey eric,

does this sound familiar?

"Well you know what auction houses sell BAD crap all day long. Lelands pulls stuff all the time from auction, so does ever other major auction house because errors are made.."

let me refresh your memory, you said it back in 2004 when you were a "novice". so when it suits your purpose you feel that "auction houses sell BAD crap all day long.." and "lelands pulls stuff all the time.." yet then it's convenient for your purpose you'll say "..wouldn't major auction houses know this and not make the same mistake for years?" and "Yeah it is funny that an auction house or dealer would take the risk for a few thousand dollars because knowingly selling an item that is not what it is stated to be is fraud; and fraud equals jail time. Each and every act of fraud is punishable by no less than 1 and no more than 4 years in jail for each act plus restitution to the adversely affected party. So yeah to me their is no upside and only down side".

what happened to "auction houses sell BAD crap all day long" eric?

"I will not sit around and let him state one thing in one post and an email and another elsewhere.

"I have not bailed once"

"..does not mean you follow that person, especially when they have made conflicting statements.."

with "25 yrs of experience", you would've had about 21 yrs worth in 2004. but with 21 yrs worth of experience you didn't know what "game-issued" meant.

rudy.

[1986&2004Bosox]

Good luck to all of you and your collections.

Lund6771 I was new to hockey collecting and made a big error.

Lund 6771. Yes I tried to flip before I owned the items then found out these shirts had been passed thru the hobby as bad jerseys previously and the current owner was trying to unload them onto me.

I was out of my field of expertise with hockey I did not do my home work and learned my lesson the hard way. It has not happened since then. I am sure we have all tried to place items that we part of a larger collection to make a deal work.

I took the sellers word on the shirts and found out they had numerous issues and were on the web as know fakes. I made a mistake one which I will never make again. I relayed the info he provided me and that info turned out to not be correct. I should have done my home work I did not.

However what I did in reference to trying to pre sell the items is no different then a dealer offering a collector a piece that has been offered to them. The dealer does not want to buy the piece outright but if they can find a customer for it and make a profit they will do so. That to this day I still do not feel is wrong, that is business.

Since then I have brokered many deals, added to my personal collection, located numerous items and numerous respected board members and high profile dealers have completed transactions with me for everything from 2004 WS Players Ring, to a vintage 50ties Packers HOF players jersey, to 1919 WS program and tickets, to Brooklyn Dodgers Jerseys and banners, to Boston Braves bats, hats awards and everything in between.

Would I like to keep all items I locate yes. Can I afford to no.

Have we all not done the same thing as collectors? Is there anyone on the board who has never sold an item for profit?

With regards to the current deal Chris has my address, copy of my license cell phone # and email and can get in touch with me any time he likes. if he wants his money back I will meet him right now.

This to me is not about being right or wrong it is about coming to a conclusion on how to judge McAuliffe shirts and what exactly the borderless tag means. If others have spent hard earned money on something that is wrong then I would try and help them get their money back, I have stated that numerous times.

[Rob L]

Any idea what year this jersey came out? It's a mesh McAuliffe Red Sox retail jersey, no blue border.

[ChrisCavalier]

While I realize this topic can provide a great deal of useful information to collectors, I'm afraid at this point this thread is beginning to stray from it's usefulness. With that said, I am going to lock this thread until Lon has accumulated the infromation he has referenced and can share it here with our community.

If anyone has any other questions regarding this thread please feel free to contact me directly. I, and I'm sure I join many others, look forward to seeing Lon's findings and trust many will benefit from his knowledge and efforts.