1990 McGWIRE JERSEY-NOT!!!!!

[hblakewolf]

Forum readers-
Offered on Ebay is a 1990 McGwire A's home jersey:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=8799986412

Only one minor problem.........

The C in McGwire is incorrectly placed.

Please see this photo from Getty:
http://cache.gettyimages.com/xc/52975785.jpg?v=1&c=MS_GINS&k=2&d=17A4AD9FDB9CF1939847EC77F5F8D1CE53EF74513261303B

1990 World Series.

Or, yet another photo from 1990..
http://cache.gettyimages.com/xc/51337201.jpg?v=1&c=MS_GINS&k=2&d=17A4AD9FDB9CF1939847EC77F5F8D1CEE7F7349976C1C1BD

I have sold 2 1990 McGwire jerseys, and neither had the C placed like the one offered on Ebay. I welcome someone to produce a photo from 1990 with the C placed in a similar fashion as the one offered on Ebay.

The jersey on Ebay does however, have a LOA from Grey Flannel!

As I always say, do your homework and line the birdcage with any LOA that is not from the team.

Howard Wolf
hblakewolf@patmedia.net

[mchmaj]

seem u did not research enuff ..
i found photo that has his C on lower case
http://cache.gettyimages.com/xc/2077134.jpg?v=1&c=MS_GINS&k=2&d=17A4AD9FDB9CF19370467C275D58E836CA2E70A14DE69D25

[BAT-DNA]

Mr. Wolf, did you e-mail the seller and ask about this discrepency before posting this, if so what did they say?

[whatupyos]

I agree with Howard. I have over 200 McGwire cards from that era and none of them have the C low on the nameplate, they all have them high. Also Getty has made errors in the past by not being too reliable on their dates to their photos. The Big Mac and Eric Davis photo we know if legit becasue of the patch on Davis jersey for the World Series so we know for sur eits a 90. I have an email in to the seller so we will see, but I wouldnt pay jack squat for that jersey, just my opinion, if anyone else thinks otherwise, I can respect their opinion, just saying I wouldnt want to risk it.

Aaron

[trsent]

Howard did you email the seller in advance of your post and ask them about your concern? If so, what was their reply?

I know someone posted about all the trading cards they have, but generally back then weren't trading cards only made from photos from the previous season? Even then, what is the explain the difference from the pictures Howard posted to the one later posted by user: mchmaj?

I just do not understand, when you make such a post, why don't you tell us about your attempts to reach the seller in your original post? This item was listed about 36 hours before your post on the forum, so if you attempted to reach the seller, I would assume over the weekend would not be ample time to make an accusation that they are knowing selling a doctored item, which later photo-evidence shows they may have a legitimate item.

I hope you had a nice weekend, I wasted my morning yesterday at Wrigley Field, but I'll start a new thread to discuss that.

[hblakewolf]

Joel-
I sent the seller 2 emails, and as of today, have never heard a word back.

The photo I posted from Getty has a specific date listed with it, and likewise, can be EXACTLY dated to the World Series in 1990. The other poster's photo did not have a specific date associated with it, rather a generic caption on Getty indicating it was from 1990. The difference here is that Getty often indicates a photo is from a certain year, however, it is incorrectly listed. The photo I provided can be traced to 1990, and the jersey in qestion differes from my photo with Eric Davis.

Furthermore Joel, I never stated that the seller is offering a "doctored" item. This may be your take, but I never made mention of this. Do you believe it is doctored?

My post has no hidden meaning. I have not seen a McGwire from 1990 with the small C placed in this position. As such, I'm asking for the forum's assistance in providing proof, either positive or negative.

Howard Wolf
hblakewolf@patmedia.net


Howard did you email the seller in advance of your post and ask them about your concern? If so, what was their reply?

I know someone posted about all the trading cards they have, but generally back then weren't trading cards only made from photos from the previous season? Even then, what is the explain the difference from the pictures Howard posted to the one later posted by user: mchmaj?

I just do not understand, when you make such a post, why don't you tell us about your attempts to reach the seller in your original post? This item was listed about 36 hours before your post on the forum, so if you attempted to reach the seller, I would assume over the weekend would not be ample time to make an accusation that they are knowing selling a doctored item, which later photo-evidence shows they may have a legitimate item.

I hope you had a nice weekend, I wasted my morning yesterday at Wrigley Field, but I'll start a new thread to discuss that.

[trsent]

Furthermore Joel, I never stated that the seller is offering a "doctored" item. This may be your take, but I never made mention of this. Do you believe it is doctored?

My post has no hidden meaning. I have not seen a McGwire from 1990 with the small C placed in this position. As such, I'm asking for the forum's assistance in providing proof, either positive or negative.

Howard, your post before discussing this with the seller is the reason you have not received a reply. I did speak with the seller about this item this morning, and they are really hot that your post came up stating their item was not genuine without first discussing it with them.

You don't like the jersey, and you didn't give a reasonable time for a reply about the item. It was the weekend, and the auction doesn't end for a few days, so you could have waited until Monday to post your findings but you didn't give the seller ample time to reply. Someone posted a photo showing the jersey with the "C" in the same location, and you won't accept the jersey may be genuine.

How do you reply about the photo that was posted later with the "C" in the same location? I do not believe your argument that the Getty images photos being dated make it so you can make a post without first contacting the seller. We use Getty as a free service to help us verify jerseys based on photographic evidence. Besides, Getty for jerseys from this era is not a great source, because generally they do not have many examples from the season to support reasonable negative evidence.

There is new evidence posted since your original post, do you have a reply to this?

[Eric]

Howard-

The title of your thread suggests the seller is offering something that's not as listed.

You said you sent 2 emails to the seller. Did you contact the seller and give him a chance to respond BEFORE you posted here?

Eric

[hblakewolf]

Eric/Joel-
As per the rules of the Forum, I did contact the seller (TWICE!!!) before making my post, however, never heard back. What's really intersting here is that Joel indicates the seller is not pleased with my post, yet, the seller makes no effort to either answer my emails to him or respond here?

Joel, I must disagree with your thoughts on Getty. The Getty photo showing the C in the same location as the offered jersey has no specific date associated with it. We have seen errors with Getty images being incorrectly dated before, and I believe this is yet another case of this. Who knows if it is even from 1990! Can you produce a photo from Getty or similar photo service dating this style of nameplate to 1990, and having the name on back of the jersey match it? I tried to find a photo on Getty and my personal collection that matches the nameplte style in 1990, however, could not.

I welcome either of you or another Forum reader to provide another photo that can actually be dated to 1990, such as the one with Eric Davis that I posted.

Howard Wolf
hblakewolf@patmedia.net

[Eric]

Just so I understand specifically, when did you email the seller and when did you post here?
Eric

[hblakewolf]

Eric-
Contacted the seller the day before making my post, as per your stated rules. Likewise, I have never heard back from this"upset" seller, as Joel notes.

Howard Wolf
hblakewolf@patmedia.net

[trsent]

Howard, that is not the point.

You found two photos and some trading cards were also brought up. That doesn't mean in any way, shape or forum (a pun, get it?) that the jersey is not genuine.

The Canseco and Puckett photos are both found on Getty as from the 1990 season. Based on this information, it would show that Mac may have worn a jersey with such lettering as found on the jersey you have questioned from eBay.

Now, you just mentioned that you felt the Puckett photo is mis-dated, but you have no evidence or proof to this point that may cost a seller money because of your post without evidence.

The caption for this photo reads:

"1990: Kirby Puckett #34 of the Minnesota Twins talks with Mark mcGwire #25 during a game in the 1990 season. (Photo by: Otto Greule Jr/Getty Images) "

You state that you attempted to contact the seller, but you didn't wait a reasonable period of time before stating in your title "NOT!!!!!" which points to your point that you feel the item is not genuine. I do not know if it is genuine or not, but if I was looking to buy this item I would first contact the seller and wait the weekend for a reply. You didn't and the seller received contact from people about the forum post, which may be why you personally have not received a reply - That I do not know.

[trsent]

Howard, please advise, your post about this jersey was made yesterday around 1PM (who knows the time zone? That is what I show on the forum's clock on my computer.) and your only email to the seller asking your question was at Sun, Apr 23, 2006 3:58 pm (I assume this is East Coast time, but what do I know). How is this considered timely?

I privately emailed you asking for you to call me, I really don't want to continue going over this with you in public.

[hblakewolf]

Joel-
Ask the seller, Brad Horne, to check his email again. Likewise, why can't Brad respond and speak on this issue himself?

Just curious.

Howard Wolf
hblakewolf@patmedia.net

[trsent]

Joel-
Ask the seller, Brad Horne, to check his email again. Likewise, why can't Brad respond and speak on this issue himself?

Howard, I have not talked to Brad Horne in about four years, the last time he called me when he was in Las Vegas. I did talk to a gentleman named Steve about this jersey as Steve has bought from me in the past.

[hblakewolf]

Howard, I have not talked to Brad Horne in about four years, the last time he called me when he was in Las Vegas. I did talk to a gentleman named Steve about this jersey as Steve has bought from me in the past.

Joel-
You stated, "I did speak with the seller about this item this morning, and they are really hot that your post came up stating their item was not genuine without first discussing it with them. "

The Ebay seller who is offering this jersey is THEBOOK25. Is the seller's legal name Brad Horne?

Howard Wolf
hblakewolf@patmedia.net

[Eric]

The seller is named Steve Hicks. He told me you sent him one email, not two and it was just before 5pm sunday- after you posted here.

Steve said "I would take it down right now if it was deemed bad....I just dont want to take it off just because one person has a bad opinion on it....there has been a lot of interest and I have received a lot of emails about it....BUT once again if it was bad, I would not allow it to sell on Ebay."

Steve said he was never given a chance to answer questions before being contacted by people saying his item was being called out on the forum.

[nycsports]

Howard,

It's kind of ironic, that all you ever do is tell people "do your homework" , "do your homework" , "do your homework" yet you obviously didn't do your own homework here! I found 3 pictures in my collection of McGwire wearing a jersey with the same lettering style as the one listed on eBay. I don't have a digital camera, but I will try get the pics posted to this board soon.

[Eric]

Please post the pic as soon as you can. Are the photos from 1990?
Eric

[hblakewolf]

Howard,

It's kind of ironic, that all you ever do is tell people "do your homework" , "do your homework" , "do your homework" yet you obviously didn't do your own homework here! I found 3 pictures in my collection of McGwire wearing a jersey with the same lettering style as the one listed on eBay. I don't have a digital camera, but I will try get the pics posted to this board soon.

Actually NYCSPORTS, please read my original post on this issue....

"I welcome someone to produce a photo from 1990 with the C placed in a similar fashion as the one offered on Ebay."

Hats off to you for doing your homework! Not only did you find one photo, but three!

You just proved what has been stated here before-the vast knowledge pool of the Forum readers is AMAZING, and allows us to determine specific traits, authenticity and related in a quick and easy fashion that proves to be an extremely valubale tool to our fellow collectors in this ever growing "hobby".

Thanks-we look forward to the photos.

Howard Wolf
hblakewolf@patmedia.net

[whatupyos]

Howard was just making an observation on the jersey in a fair way. Everyone is giving him crap about not letting ample time for the email to be responded too...Most people check their email 5 times a day, so it should have been responded too. Everyone has a title to their opinion, so who really cares if the seller is pissed or not, and who cares if there was no email to the seller before posting, it was a reference Howard made, he wasn't attacking the seller, so just let it go.

[hblakewolf]

The seller is named Steve Hicks. He told me you sent him one email, not two and it was just before 5pm sunday- after you posted here.

Steve said "I would take it down right now if it was deemed bad....I just dont want to take it off just because one person has a bad opinion on it....there has been a lot of interest and I have received a lot of emails about it....BUT once again if it was bad, I would not allow it to sell on Ebay."

Steve said he was never given a chance to answer questions before being contacted by people saying his item was being called out on the forum.

Eric:
For your information, Steve Hicks ran Brad Horne's card shop in Florence, SC. Many of the items currently listed on eBay were once on Brad's site at collectsports.net. Florence, SC isn't a big city, and that was where Brad Horne's business was also based.


FYI

Howard Wolf
hblakewolf@patmedia.net

[Eric]

That's all fine and good, but I asked the seller hours ago if he was Brad or knew Brad. And you are correct he used to work there, but the seller is Steve Hicks.

And all of this trouble would have been avoided if either- you worded the thread differently so it didn't suggest that the McGwire jersey was not as listed (see the thread title)
OR
You followed the rules and gave the seller a chance to respond.

There are no buts here. This is a clear "shoot first and ask questions later" scenario. That is not tolerated here.

If you're looking for another version of this, please see the thread which says the Mariners jersey being sold by Ball Park Heroes was a fake. No attempt was made to ask the seller question there either.

Here the assumptions are wrong. And on that one, the assumptions were wrong.

I'll say it again and again and again and again and again, even though I'm ready to bang my head against the wall. Be responsible with your words. There's no other way.
Eric


Eric:
For your information, Steve Hicks ran Brad Horne's card shop in Florence, SC. Many of the items currently listed on eBay were once on Brad's site at collectsports.net. Florence, SC isn't a big city, and that was where Brad Horne's business was also based.


FYI

Howard Wolf
hblakewolf@patmedia.net

[trsent]

Howard was just making an observation on the jersey in a fair way. Everyone is giving him crap about not letting ample time for the email to be responded too...Most people check their email 5 times a day, so it should have been responded too. Everyone has a title to their opinion, so who really cares if the seller is pissed or not, and who cares if there was no email to the seller before posting, it was a reference Howard made, he wasn't attacking the seller, so just let it go.

So when Howard posted that a jersey was "1990 McGWIRE JERSEY-NOT!!!!!" he wasn't making a comment that the jersey is no good in his views? If Howard had just posted something such as:

"Please look at this auction: LINK. I have found two images on Getty Images that have a different placement for the "C" in McGwire, can anyone help me photo-match the jersey in the auction with a 1990 Mark McGwire game photo I would appreciate it."

There would be no issues. Howard posted using only the photos on Getty Images, which is not a big enough selection of Mac's back to determine that a jersey is "NOT!!!!!" authentic. Even if there were 1000 pictures, that doesn't mean the jersey is not authentic anyway, time has taught us there can be jerseys worn and not all photographed for distribution such as Getty Images.

As for the other points made in this post, I do not know if Steve works with or for Brad Horne anymore, but I have known both for years and I know that if there is a legitimate issue found they would address it. By the way, I just checked, and the population of Florence, SC is just over 125,000.

http://www.cityrating.com/citystats.asp?city=Florence&state=SC

That is a pretty big city in my book...

[bigtime59]

Threads like this one are a major reason I'm considering getting out of this hobby.
So, Howard was a little chippy in his first post (not like I've ever done that before--oh, wait, I have) and now everybody wants to ride his back on the downward road to perdition...
...well, kiddies, remember this...the people who make these jerseys don't care one one thousandth as much about them as we do. It's half a miracle the "c" didn't wind up before the "M." We've all seen error jerseys up close and personal...and we've all seen the daily deluge of fake superstar jerseys that continues to swamp this hobby. The first rule of caution still applies: alleged superstar jerseys not sourced directly from the team are guilty until proven innocent...and too expensive for me to afford until I can find that damned winning lottery ticket.

[both-teams-played-hard]

The first rule of caution still applies: alleged superstar jerseys not sourced directly from the team are guilty until proven innocent...

You are correct, Sir.
I actually believe ALL superstar jerseys, regardless of the seller, are suspect. Scrubs, bench-warmers and commons are still worth collecting!

[CollectGU]

Let's get back to the basic premise her. Howard calls a jersey a fake and provides Getty images to valdate his reasons, THEN e-mails the seller, THEN his use of Getty images to call the jersey fake is used to DISPROVE his assumptions and accusations, Then he uses the lame excuse that Getty is "not reliable with their dating" blah,blah,blah..

Howard you were wrong, just say so and let's move on...

[trsent]

The first rule of caution still applies: alleged superstar jerseys not sourced directly from the team are guilty until proven innocent...and too expensive for me to afford until I can find that damned winning lottery ticket.

Wait a second, just like OJ and Bonds, oh wait, I won't go down that road...

The issue here is simply that Steve has a jersey that come with a letter from Grey Flannel, so he has done his homework, and it appears the two photos provided by Howard are both from the post season (it appears Canseco has a patch on his sleeve) so there is no positive evidence that there is any issues with this jersey.

Your personal policy may be not to buy a big name player without a team letter, but that is not the general buying public's view. I do not think it matters if you are buying or questioning a $25.00 or $250,000.00 jersey.

Howard may have jumped the gun, but we are not attacking Howard, I spoke to him on the telephone today and we had a nice conversation. I may debate topics with Howard (and Rudy before he disappeared, come home already Rudy) but I do consider Howard a friend who appreciates debate. I asked him to question items in a different method so that the forum doesn't get accused of picking on items as easily as this thread.

What some users who use this forum forget is Eric and Chris have legal obligations to keep the forum clean of accusations without investigation (and the user who told us earlier that a person generally checks his email 4-5 times a day is wrong. Some people don't touch their computer for the weekend, so that was not a fair point) because it may lead to legal issues that they do not wish to deal with.

[bigtime59]

Your personal policy may be not to buy a big name player without a team letter, but that is not the general buying public's view. I do not think it matters if you are buying or questioning a $25.00 or $250,000.00 jersey.

My personal policy is to not consider "big name player" jerseys, period. I can't afford them, period. Also, like a corpse attracts flies, the prospect of big money to be made on "big name player" jerseys attracts an unsavory element to this hobby.
So, even if I eliminated the ca$h factor from the equation, I cannot eliminate the criminal factor w/o dealing directly with teams, or with dealers I wholeheartedly trust. (And there aren't many of those.)
Did I mention I'm thinking of getting out?