Game Used LOA's/COA's & Their Significants To The Hobby

[TriplexXxSports]

I have been reading through quite a few threads recently about Game Used/Auction Houses/eBay items/LOA's & COA's, and it brought up a couple of questions about authentication. I would like to see how others would answer them.

It seems that when discussing a Game Used item the LOA/COA issued by an institution/person has been recently 'discrediting', or weighing heavily, the thoughts people have on that item.

Such comments as, LOA from Lou Lampson, must be garbage. Or 100% Authentic Team, WTF!? JUNK, and now most recently GFC Letters are getting slammed.

(The above comments are not verbatim, they were written by myself, only to make a point. These are not my personal thoughts or opinions, nor the thoughts and opinions of others)

So, why is it that the average joe cannot make a LOA/COA for an item that they are trying to sell if they have all the correct information that would outweigh a LOA/COA from a Big Named Company?

Would it be wrong if I were to purchase a game used item, photomatch/videomatch it to a particular date/game, type up a letter that states all of my findings (including the pictures/video, and any other concrete evidence that proves, beyond a reasonable doubt, that the item is legit) and sell it with my personal LOA?

Why don't others, who clearly have more authenticating knowledge than some of the other Big Name authenticators, make up their own LOA's?

Why do you think that personal LOA's, with concrete evidence, would still be less desirable that Big Name LOA's?

I would be very interested in hearing some of your thoughts.

[BULBUS]

Re: Game Used LOA's/COA's & Their Significants To The Hobby

Well, if I saw an item for sale that came with a letter of authenticity from Joe Shmoe showing his findings, I would be more than willing to pay a premium for that item. The letter would have to describe the jersey in detail, indicating dates (or approx. dates) the item was used, photos, maybe stats of the player while the player used this item, and definitely high quality pictures showing a definitive photomatch. This letter probably should be 3-4 pages with all the pics.

-Chris

[halzeus]

Re: Game Used LOA's/COA's & Their Significants To The Hobby

Well, if I saw an item for sale that came with a letter of authenticity from Joe Shmoe showing his findings, I would be more than willing to pay a premium for that item. The letter would have to describe the jersey in detail, indicating dates (or approx. dates) the item was used, photos, maybe stats of the player while the player used this item, and definitely high quality pictures showing a definitive photomatch. This letter probably should be 3-4 pages with all the pics.

-Chris

You pretty much described why I started this thread the other day:

http://www.gameuseduniverse.com/vb_forum/showthread.php?t=24858

I have some items used by an All American from Michigan in the 1970s and I want to document them. Thanks for the ideas.

Dan

[Eric]

Re: Game Used LOA's/COA's & Their Significants To The Hobby

Just fill in the blanks


(NAME OF PLAYER) was legendary at his sport. (INSERT STATISTICS HERE) (INSERT FLOWERY DESCRIPTION OF STYLE OF PLAY HERE)

This game used item is sourced from an equipment manager. Lettering and may or may not match game photos, but is acceptable. Slight puckering on the numbering denotes multiple washes. Game use is light, but apropos for his position.

Overall, the finest (NAME OF PLAYER) example this hobby has ever seen.

Signed

(INSERT YOUR NAME HERE)
RESPECTED HOBBY AUTHENTICATOR

[suave1477]

Re: Game Used LOA's/COA's & Their Significants To The Hobby

I don't think an LOA from Joe Schmoe is any less valuable then an LOA from a big name authenticator.

I think the mutual feeling in general is that basically anyone can write up an loa and just say it is game used. It is rare from (Example you mentioned Lou Lampson) that you see alot of definitive reasons in the loa for it being said to be used by (Players Name) Jersey or bat.

He usually just writes up a vague LOA stating it shows use.

Half the time the members here on the board spot red flags of why that item cannot be used by (said) person and they are obvious red flags.
For example: a Jersey that wasn't even made till after the player retired, a bat that shows no use, a jersey that shows an obvious retail tag.

Which then makes people feel that LOAS become worthless.

Now if you have an LOA anyone from Joe Schmoe to a big name Authenticator that gives a detailed description on it as mentioned by previous members it holds a lot stronger in the buyers eyes and makes the seller/authenticator that much credible.

When you have someone as the Authetnitcator that you mentioned who consistantly writes bad loas on items and calls himself a leading authenticator yet when something is questionable there is absolutely no access to reach him and understand why he feels the way he does about the item.

It makes him and LOAS not of much use.

Which in turns strengthens the phrase - 'Do your own homework"

[BULBUS]

Re: Game Used LOA's/COA's & Their Significants To The Hobby

The sad thing is that there are still collectors out there that think a vague loa from a "well known" authenticator is better than a detailed, photomatched loa from Joe Shmoe. Without that Lampson, PSA, Steiner, ect. loa, their not buying.

[kingjammy24]

Re: Game Used LOA's/COA's & Their Significants To The Hobby

Why don't others, who clearly have more authenticating knowledge than some of the other Big Name authenticators, make up their own LOA's?

Why do you think that personal LOA's, with concrete evidence, would still be less desirable that Big Name LOA's?

the inherant need for an authenticator stems from a lack of knowledge and expertise about a certain item or niche. if you don't know what you're looking at, then you don't know enough to compare knowledge amongst experts. how then will you decide who to go with? the same way most people make their choices in things they don't understand: marketing; as you said, "big names".

marketing convinces people to go with one brand over another and it often has little to do with merit or quality. marketing buys mass recognition and mass recognition buys some sort of pseudo-trust on the part of the consumer. popularity is often a self-perpetuating cycle; the most well-known entities attract the most attention.

to answer your question, personal LOAs would be less desireable because they aren't big names and big names are how people make their decisions when they don't know any better. "people who don't know any better" constitute the primary market for authenticators. denny esken said it perfectly when he said ""These guys aren't qualified..They spend more time marketing themselves as experts than doing research." it's all about perception; convincing people you're an expert, even if you aren't. the more you market yourself, the more people will believe your act.

eric provided a good template for an LOA. here's a template for becoming an "expert":

1) write hyperbolic bio. my favorite one ever? this one for dave bushing that mastro had on their site in 2004: "Dave has been in the business since the mid-eighties and has established himself as the number one authority and authenticator of bats and gloves. ..He has been selected as the repository of the Louisville Slugger archives and has all records for every bat ever made for any player of note. This information is not otherwise available. His exclusive services will give Mastro Fine Sports an insurmountable edge in authentication of bats, gloves and other equipment, since he is virtually the only respected authority". WOW! to wit then: dave bushing was the number one authenticator of bats and gloves (sorry, malta, taube, clevenhagen and esken, you lose!), he was selected as the repository of the LVS records (like there was only 1), that infomation was not otherwise available, and he was "virtually the only respected authority". what an incredible bio! it'd be even better if it weren't chock full of lies. in 2004, several people had access to the records. vince malta, bill riddell, and GUU's own mike specht had access to them YEARS before dave ever did. of course, it's always fun stumbling upon a flag on the moon and then saying you're the one that put it there. mastro tried to say that, via bushing, only they had access to the records. a big crock of sh!t. but i'm sure a lot of people fell for it because malta, riddell and specht didn't spend 90% of their time marketing themselves with pompous bios.

2) go to every trade show and conference and tell everyone you possibly can that you're a "foremost expert". sure many will laugh but it's all a numbers game. if you can convince even 50% of them, thats still a large number of people. plus those people will tell other uninformed people and soon your legend will grow. remember, it's all about the marketing! if you continue to tell people something, eventually they'll start to believe it.

3) write LOAs on every single item you can get your hands on; bats, gloves, jerseys, helmets, whatever. it doesn't even matter what sport or era it is. remember, you're the "expert" and real experts don't have niches! niches are for wimps. when you make egregious errors, just chalk it up to an administrative mishap. when you've made enough of those, just say you're "building your database".

4) a new one i just learnt: ever sold peanuts or souvenirs at a famous ballpark as a kid? be sure to say you spent "X years at famous ballpark". it'll sound impressive (and relevant!) to anyone who doesn't wonder what you actually did at that ballpark.

pretty soon, you too can start reaping the rewards of convincing people you know things you actually have no clue about. the magic of marketing!

rudy.

[kingjammy24]

Re: Game Used LOA's/COA's & Their Significants To The Hobby

I don't think an LOA from Joe Schmoe is any less valuable then an LOA from a big name authenticator.

so an LOA from joe schmoe would carry the same weight in terms of resale value on an item as an LOA from MEARS? if that's the case, why is anyone even using MEARS? why not save yourself the money and write your own LOA? why do sellers even bother stating their items are "guaranteed to pass MEARS/PSA/GFC" if those entities are no more valuable than authentication by joe schmoe?

rudy.

[xpress34]

Re: Game Used LOA's/COA's & Their Significants To The Hobby

... a jersey that shows an obvious retail tag.

Suave -

While that is Generally a huge RED FLAG (99.9% of the time), there are a few Rockies GU items - particularly Jerseys - in the market that are AUTHENTIC GU items, but Retail tagged.

This issue has been presented to me MULTIPLE times by various Rockies Dug Out store Managers (they work for the Colorado Rockies) who obtain their GU merchandise directly from the Rockies.

There have been multiple occurrences where the Rockies (the Monforts are about the cheapest owners in baseball) have had to obtain a jersey for a player from the Retail Store in the Stadium because the Starting Pitcher chose to wear a Jersey Style that a particular player no longer had any of because the Rockies had done a 'Charity Signing' of stuff from that player before the game.

In those cases, the Rockies have ordered a Jersey made from the Retail store and had the Clubhouse Staff go and pick it up. Usually, those jerseys were reclaimed immediately after the game and put with a Rockies LOA for authenticity.

Unfortunately, the Rockies LOAs are pretty generic and they do not mention the background on these Retail jerseys.

That said, if you research the Russell tagging for Rockies jerseys, you will find that there is no set pattern there either. In the same season, some jerseys may have a Strip Tag with name and year, some just year, some with tailoring tags, and some with nothing at all.

The ONLY tell tale sign that a jersey from Russell (Majestic did not carry this trait on as far as I have been able to find out) came through the Rockies clubhouse is on the Home White jerseys.

ALL Home White Russell jerseys that came from Russell to the Rockies (not the Retail store, etc) have distinct CREAM colored buttons rather than the WHITE Pearlescent ones and they are stamped Colorado Rockies around the edge of the buttons

Just wanted to put that out there... I know it muddles the water, but unfortunately, sometimes the teams themselves make it harder to verify what is real or not.

All the best -

Chris

[jhunt28]

Re: Game Used LOA's/COA's & Their Significants To The Hobby

so an LOA from joe schmoe would carry the same weight in terms of resale value on an item as an LOA from MEARS? if that's the case, why is anyone even using MEARS? why not save yourself the money and write your own LOA? why do sellers even bother stating their items are "guaranteed to pass MEARS/PSA/GFC" if those entities are no more valuable than authentication by joe schmoe?

rudy.

I don't mean to get in the middle of this conversation, or put words in anyone's mouth, but I think the key word missing is EDUCATED BUYER. I think an LOA from Joe Schmoe would carry the same weight as an LOA from MEARS for the Educated Buyer. If you have a retail football helmet that includes a LOA from Lampson, I guarantee that would get bids on Ebay. No one on this forum would have any interest, because I believe everyone on this forum is an Educated Buyer. Now if I wrote up my own LOA that included detailed photo matching, helmet dating codes, specific things that team equipment managers would do to identify helmets, etc..., I would guarantee that the general public would find my personal LOA an insult. But the educated helmet buyer would probably find more value in my LOA with detailed backup, than a "popular" LOA that was completely incorrect. But as far as why are these athentication services still being used??...I believe you addressed the answer fairly well above. It's about brand name, marketing, letting everyone know you are the foremost expert on everything, etc. The average person who doesn't know about the GUU Forum (and I'm sure there are thousands of buyers who are unaware, otherwise how would these awful auction items even get bids??) puts all of their faith that the auction houses are doing the homework for them. I'm sure all of us on this forum have been burned, or know of someone who has been burned by an auction house. But believe it or not, there still is a large group of people who take these auction house LOA/COA as Gospel, and they would think a Joe Schmoe LOA/COA would be worthless.

[suave1477]

Re: Game Used LOA's/COA's & Their Significants To The Hobby

so an LOA from joe schmoe would carry the same weight in terms of resale value on an item as an LOA from MEARS? if that's the case, why is anyone even using MEARS? why not save yourself the money and write your own LOA? why do sellers even bother stating their items are "guaranteed to pass MEARS/PSA/GFC" if those entities are no more valuable than authentication by joe schmoe?

rudy.

I didn't mean of equal value in noteriety I was meaning more towards the home work that is done behind the LOA

If Joe Shmoe Loa has just as much conclusive evidence on it pertaining to the item being sold as would a Mears LOA to an item they are selling. To me it is basically equal value for what I am looking for. Not for the resale value of the item.

Example: If Joe Schmoe is selling a 1993 Don Mattingly Game Used Road Jersey and has detailed information on it of what makes it to be used directly by Mattingly and Mears has a 1993 Don Mattingly Game Used Home Jersey with similar detailed information on it.

I wouldn't buy the Mears one just because it was Mears. I would consider each Jersey based on what I am looking for.

Even a better example lets say Both were selling the same exact style of Jersey, year, player, and so on.
I wouldn't buy the Mears one just because it is from Mears. I would see which has more detailed information that best suits the usage of the player and decide from there.

Another example
PSA is a well recognized name in the hobby. But I would personally trust Jim Carravello's opinion on a Yankee bat before I do PSA.

These are just my opinions.

Now if your looking for resale value of coursea more recognized name in the hobby will most likely sell for more but in my eyes one doesn't hold more weight over the other unless either one shows me they have done there homework on the item.

[suave1477]

Re: Game Used LOA's/COA's & Their Significants To The Hobby

Suave -

While that is Generally a huge RED FLAG (99.9% of the time), there are a few Rockies GU items - particularly Jerseys - in the market that are AUTHENTIC GU items, but Retail tagged.

This issue has been presented to me MULTIPLE times by various Rockies Dug Out store Managers (they work for the Colorado Rockies) who obtain their GU merchandise directly from the Rockies.

There have been multiple occurrences where the Rockies (the Monforts are about the cheapest owners in baseball) have had to obtain a jersey for a player from the Retail Store in the Stadium because the Starting Pitcher chose to wear a Jersey Style that a particular player no longer had any of because the Rockies had done a 'Charity Signing' of stuff from that player before the game.

In those cases, the Rockies have ordered a Jersey made from the Retail store and had the Clubhouse Staff go and pick it up. Usually, those jerseys were reclaimed immediately after the game and put with a Rockies LOA for authenticity.

Unfortunately, the Rockies LOAs are pretty generic and they do not mention the background on these Retail jerseys.

That said, if you research the Russell tagging for Rockies jerseys, you will find that there is no set pattern there either. In the same season, some jerseys may have a Strip Tag with name and year, some just year, some with tailoring tags, and some with nothing at all.

The ONLY tell tale sign that a jersey from Russell (Majestic did not carry this trait on as far as I have been able to find out) came through the Rockies clubhouse is on the Home White jerseys.

ALL Home White Russell jerseys that came from Russell to the Rockies (not the Retail store, etc) have distinct CREAM colored buttons rather than the WHITE Pearlescent ones and they are stamped Colorado Rockies around the edge of the buttons

Just wanted to put that out there... I know it muddles the water, but unfortunately, sometimes the teams themselves make it harder to verify what is real or not.

All the best -

Chris

I agree a 100% there have been found from a time to time anomally in the hobby where possibly a retail item may have been used.
My point was mere a hypothitcal example that is it.

[suave1477]

Re: Game Used LOA's/COA's & Their Significants To The Hobby

I don't mean to get in the middle of this conversation, or put words in anyone's mouth, but I think the key word missing is EDUCATED BUYER. I think an LOA from Joe Schmoe would carry the same weight as an LOA from MEARS for the Educated Buyer. If you have a retail football helmet that includes a LOA from Lampson, I guarantee that would get bids on Ebay. No one on this forum would have any interest, because I believe everyone on this forum is an Educated Buyer. Now if I wrote up my own LOA that included detailed photo matching, helmet dating codes, specific things that team equipment managers would do to identify helmets, etc..., I would guarantee that the general public would find my personal LOA an insult. But the educated helmet buyer would probably find more value in my LOA with detailed backup, than a "popular" LOA that was completely incorrect. But as far as why are these athentication services still being used??...I believe you addressed the answer fairly well above. It's about brand name, marketing, letting everyone know you are the foremost expert on everything, etc. The average person who doesn't know about the GUU Forum (and I'm sure there are thousands of buyers who are unaware, otherwise how would these awful auction items even get bids??) puts all of their faith that the auction houses are doing the homework for them. I'm sure all of us on this forum have been burned, or know of someone who has been burned by an auction house. But believe it or not, there still is a large group of people who take these auction house LOA/COA as Gospel, and they would think a Joe Schmoe LOA/COA would be worthless.

Thats my point i a nut shell!!

[kingjammy24]

Re: Game Used LOA's/COA's & Their Significants To The Hobby

while i agree that an 'educated buyer' wouldn't weigh a 'big name' LOA over any other, would an educated buyer even have a need for an LOA in the first place?

the original question was why don't individual collectors make up their own LOAs. if we're referring to educated buyers here, then i guess i'd change my answer and say that there's no need. if you know what you're looking at, then what value is an LOA going to have?

rudy.

[jhunt28]

Re: Game Used LOA's/COA's & Their Significants To The Hobby

You' are 100% correct in what you just said. If you know what you're looking for, and if you know what you're looking at is the real thing, then why bother with a COA/LOA in the first place? I cannot say for sure where COA/LOA's came from, but I'm pretty certain it came about for resale value. The question I was addressing is "why is it that the average joe cannot make a LOA/COA for an item that they are trying to sell if they have all the correct information that would outweigh a LOA/COA from a Big Named Company?" It wasn't a question of whether or not a legit item in question needed or didn't need a COA/LOA. The question that I took out of the thread was "Why doesn't a personal COA/LOA hold the same credibility as a more well known authentication service?" And obviously the question was brought to a head after we have been seeing a glutton of bad items trying to be sold as legitimate. We also have such a diverse, knowledgeable base of collectors on this forum like yourself, that we can discuss these topics. For all we know, discussions like this might even lead to GUU Forum COA's??? Wouldn't you rather buy a helmet/jersey/bat that passed GUU inspection, rather than AMI? I'm pretty sure everyone on this forum would feel much more comfortable with that.