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earlywynnfan
11-21-2005, 08:41 AM
Hi, I don't know if this issue was ever presented before. Recently on ebay there was a Robin Yount game used bat. LV records show that a batch of these bats were sent for promotional use in one year, then the next year a batch with the exact same characteristics was sent to Yount for use. This means that there's a 50% chance this bat was in his hands.

Collectors: how do you view this bat? Would you touch it?

As a follow-up question, I have a Nellie Fox gamer that was ordered during his last year as a player. He also ordered a batch of these the next year as a coach. How would you view this one?

Just curious for opinions, thanks.

Ken

sportscentury
11-21-2005, 10:02 AM
Ken,

You'll get a much better set of responses if you copy and paste the http address of the bat in question into your post. That way, Universe members can click on the URL and see the bat you're talking about. Even an eBay auction number would help, but a URL is best.

Cheers,

Reid

JimCaravello
11-21-2005, 12:16 PM
Hi Ken - its funny you mention all this as I am working on another posting for the Experts Corner and I touch on that topic in there. During the late 70's and into the 80's, there were a lot of promotional bats made for a lot of the star players, such as Yount, Ripken, Molitor, Yaz, Mattingly, Brett, etc. What's important when examining a bat from this period where there might be a promotional order as well as a legitimate order is to really focus on the characteristics of the bat. Check the length and the weight - check the finish - look at the grain. Now - examine the use on the bat - does the use and tar markings, cleat markings, etc. resemble what is typical of that player? Try to find out where the bat came from. I have two 1986-1989 Mattingly bats where I know where they came from - so I am comfortable with the fact that they were not promotional. Unfortunately, people have docked up bats that are promotional and are trying to sell them as game used. I would stay away from lightly used bats where promotional orders match specific player orders. Do as much research as you can before makeing a purchase. Make sure you can return the bat if you don't like it. I know that PSA has provided COA's for bats that don't match proper weights and are in that grey area relative to promotional records - but the use characteristics outweighed the other factors and the bat was considered a gamer used by that player.

The Fox bat is a little tougher, as the bat could have been used in a game or could have been used hitting fungos or taking a little BP as a coach the following year. If the use characteristics are strong ( deep seam impressions, ball marks, rack and cleat marks, tar, etc. ) and a proper number on the knob, then you would probably feel pretty good about it. If the bat has light use - then you really don't know. Either way, a Fox from his last year or his first year as a coach is pretty desirable. The problem comes in if you sell it to the avid Fox fan who really wants to know when the bat was used - he may pass. A collector just looking for a Fox professional model bat will likely buy it though. The value will be at the low end of the range for Fox bats anyway, as the bat was manufactured near the end of his career. Also - make sure that the batch ordered by Fox as a coach were completely identical - meaning, same length, weight, grain, etc. That may solver your problem.

I hope this info makes sense and helps. Don't hesitate to contact me with any other questions. Good luck! Jim Caravello - jcaravello@nc.rr.com

MSpecht
11-21-2005, 03:57 PM
Hi Ken--

Here are a few thoughts on the Yount bat question in addition to Jim's excellent post, and some info that may help in the future.

I searched Ebay's completed listings, and believe you may be referencing this bat: http://cgi.ebay.com/ROBIN-YOUNT-GAME-USED-AUTO-UNCRACKED-LS-P72-BAT-86-89_W0QQitemZ8723286937QQcategoryZ60596QQrdZ1QQcmdZ ViewItem

The bat appears to be a 1986-89 labeling period H & B Model P72. A review of H & B factory records shows that Model P72 was the only model that Yount ordered between 1/8/86 and 12/11/89. It also is the only model produced by H & B during that time frame that was sent to various persons other than Yount for promotional purposes. In that case, you need to look for the differences between Yount's personally ordered bats and the others that were manufactured.

The fortunate thing about H & B records of this labeling period is that beginning in June, 1981, the records were computerized rather than hand written on individual bat order cards. With that switch, more information was entered for each order than had appeared previously on the cards. The main piece of information of interest to collectors is the destination of the shipment, making it easy to determine some orders that were obviously promotional bats. In Yount's case, seeing a 10/17/89 order of 24 bats shipped to Anaconda-Kaye probably means that Yount never got his hands on those bats, except possibly to autograph one at an card show. The ability to differentiate between game used bats and promotional bats becomes more difficult when the same models are sent to the player and to others for a promotion. Then, the records have to be looked at very closely, and some assumptions must be made.


In the case of the Yount bat linked above, all bats sent to the Milwaukee Brewers for Yount's personal use were Model P72C, which means that the Model P72 bat had a cupped end. The bat on Ebay does not appear to have a cupped end. The orders that were sent out without a cupped end were sent to 'Baseball Miscellaneous,' 'Baseball Promotion,' 'El Paso Diablos,' 'Anaconda Kaye," and the like. However, some uncupped Model P72 bats were sent to the Brewers. This is where it gets tricky.

In the records, for bats sent to the Brewers intended for Yount's use in games, the finish, length, and weight are specified. There are other orders sent to the Brewers that do not have any weight specified, just like the orders sent to Anaconda-Kaye and other promotional outfits. There is a difference of opinion among 'experts' that, for example, an order of 12 Model P72 bats sent to the Brewers on 4/10/90, 35" in length with no weight specified were actually team index bats, ordered for use by any player who wanted a P72 model bat but did not have his own available, and that the order was sent in various weights. Other 'experts" do not believe that to be the case, and the bats were just as likely to be for a team sponsored promotion. The truth ? Who knows. What has happened, however, is that labeling a bat a "team index bat" to authenticate it when it is not supported by factory records has become more commonplace as the information contained in factory records becomes more available.

The specifics for Yount during the 1986-89 labeling period are 19 orders of P72C (cupped) bats totaling 370 bats, including 12 bats which were 34 inches in length and the rest being 35 inches in length, and all weighing 32 ounces.

To spend the money that a Hall of Famer's bat commands, I would want a Yount bat from the 1986-89 labeling period that is a 35 inch, Model P72 with a cupped end (P72C bats are shown that way on the records, but are designated P72 on the bat) that weighs close to 32 ounces, and has no finish (also on the factory records information.) In short, I would want a bat that was as close to being representative of the player's KNOWN ordering/use characteristics as possible, and that was unquestionably supported by factory records.

The Nellie fox question -- it is impossible to distinguish between the last playing bat and the coach's bat. It would have been nice if he had retired at the end of a labeling period.

Good Luck in future collecting.

Mike Specht

JimCaravello
11-21-2005, 06:26 PM
I agree with Mike. If you want to see a really nice 86-89 Robin Yount P72 Model bat, go to www.vintagebats.com (http://www.vintagebats.com) and look at Andy Benish's items for sale. You will see a spectacular Yount from that time period. Good luck!