MARK McGWIRE '99 ALL STAR JERSEY????

[hblakewolf]

Current offering in Hunt's auction, "1999 game worn McGwire All star jersey":

Lot Number: 332

http://www.huntauctions.com/LIVE/img12/332.jpg (http://www.huntauctions.com/LIVE/img12/332.jpg)
PLEASE CLICK ON THE IMAGE FOR AN ENLARGED PHOTO

Lot 332

Description: 1999 Mark McGwire St. Louis Cardinals professional model road jersey from the 1999 All-Star game. Road grey knit shirt features embroidered Cardinals lettering on front with player #25 on left breast and on back. McGwire's name is stitched on nameplate on back. Embroidered 1999 All-Star game patch appears on left sleeve. Rawlings tagging appears stitched inside the front tail with adjacent flag tags noting size "52" and "2 inch shorter length". Custom stitching appears on the front tail reading "Mark McGwire 1999 All Star Game Fenway Park July 13, 1999". McGwire has signed the jersey above the number on back in black sharpie with his added notation "70" marking his record home run total of the previous season. Shirt exhibits light to moderate usage wear and retains superb display quality. Completely original and unaltered. Includes LOAs from Hunt Auctions (jersey), JSA (auto.) and an additional LOA from BAT (Baseball Assistance Team). Following the 1999 All-Star game most of the uniforms from the game were signed and donated to BAT: EX-MT
_______________________________________________

Note the placement of the sleeve patch on the offered jersey-left sleeve.

Every photo I've located from this game shows McGwire wearing a jersey with the patch on the right sleeve:

22528

22529

Rudy has written a few previous threads about issues surrounding these jerseys and possibly he or another Forum reader can comment. Especially odd is that this has a LOA directly from BAT (see description).

This information has been forwarded to Hunt's and possibly they can shed some insight on this.

Howard Wolf
hblakewolf@comcast.net

[allstarsplus]

I think each player brought 2 jerseys to that All Star game so one could be given to BAT.

Could it be they knew the backup would go to BAT so they sewed the All Star patch to the opposite sleeve?

The Mac sig sure looks legit.

What always makes me uneasy with LOAs like the BAT LOA is that it doesn't guarantee that it is for that particular jersey once it has changed hands. Anybody can photocopy a letter and place it with another jersey so hopefully Hunt has done due dilligence with that in mind.

Hunt also has many years of experience auctioning BAT charity All Star jerseys so hopefully they have a logical explanation.

[nogloss]

I am a little confused. The jersey's description states "1999 Mark McGwire St. Louis Cardinals professional model road jersey from the 1999 All-Star game". Later in the description it states "Shirt exhibits light to moderate usage wear and retains superb display quality". http://www.huntauctions.com/LIVE/imageviewer.cfm?auction_num=12&lot_num=332&lot_qual=

No where does it state the jersey was game worn. Is it possible the jersey was issued for the game but not worn? Maybe its my lack of understanding Hunt's terminology.

[sportscentury]

I am a little confused. The jersey's description states "1999 Mark McGwire St. Louis Cardinals professional model road jersey from the 1999 All-Star game". Later in the description it states "Shirt exhibits light to moderate usage wear and retains superb display quality". http://www.huntauctions.com/LIVE/imageviewer.cfm?auction_num=12&lot_num=332&lot_qual=

No where does it state the jersey was game worn. Is it possible the jersey was issued for the game but not worn? Maybe its my lack of understanding Hunt's terminology.


The Hunt terminology can be pretty confusing. There was an entire thread about this recently (do a GUU search for Hunt and you will easily find it). They use different terms to describe very similar (in terms of game issued/game used status) items. As you point out, just because they don't use the words "game used" in item title, doesn't mean that they aren't suggesting that the item was indeed game used.

[mr.miracle]

I am a little confused. The jersey's description states "1999 Mark McGwire St. Louis Cardinals professional model road jersey from the 1999 All-Star game". Later in the description it states "Shirt exhibits light to moderate usage wear and retains superb display quality". http://www.huntauctions.com/LIVE/imageviewer.cfm?auction_num=12&lot_num=332&lot_qual=

No where does it state the jersey was game worn. Is it possible the jersey was issued for the game but not worn? Maybe its my lack of understanding Hunt's terminology.



Hunt lists all of their auctions to my knowledge as professional model jersey's whether they show light to no use, moderate use, heavy use etc. The question is, if this is a game issued jersey then how the heck does this or any show "light to moderate usage wear"?

[Birdbats]

I, too, sent Hunt an e-mail last night sharing the same concerns. I also gave them a half-dozen reasons why I think the 2001 Pujols jersey is not up to snuff. If they'd just put the 2001 side-by-side with the legit 2009 shirt they also are auctioning, the differences in the fonts, number/name (plate) placement and custom hem should jump out at them. They really shouldn't have to look any further than the 5 on front to know their jersey doesn't measure up.

http://www.huntauctions.com/LIVE/img12/471.jpg
http://www.huntauctions.com/LIVE/img12/466.jpg

[sportscentury]

If they are bad, I certainly hope they remove them. Winning bidders may have a tough time returning them after the fact, even if they have proof that they are bad. I bought a 1977 Carlton road jersey from Hunt once. It was sold as game worn, all original, unaltered. Well, Howard Wolf quickly demonstrated that the nameplate was restored (if memory serves me, I think Howard distinctly pointed out 6 or 7 things wrong with it, not the least of which was extra pin-holes!). I drove to Hunt's office to show them the proof, but David Hunt still insisted that it was all original, unaltered, including the nameplate. This was back when Hunt was using MEARS, so I contacted Dave Bushing and Dan Knoll. They reviewed the jersey again, and each individually called me to apologize for the mistake, which I very much appreciated. Bushing and Knoll quickly agreed that it was restored. Still, Hunt insisted it was all original, unaltered. I did get my money back, but it was only because of MEARS' buyback guarantee. I have not bid on a Hunt Auction item since. I don't even get their catalogs any longer. The jersey was over 7 grand ... I mean, who needs that kind of upset or hassle? They do offer some great items, and I don't have anything against the auction house ... but I just decided it was too risky to bid any longer. I thought about trying them out again when they offered Kobe's Christmas shoes earlier this year, but I couldn't match them with any photos.

[nogloss]

It's funny you mention the Pujols jersey, because its one of the few jerseys in this auction that they label "game used". There exact terminology is "2009 Albert Pujols autographed game worn St. Louis Cardinals home jersey". It makes me nervous when some of the jerseys have the "game used" moniker, while most do not. Does this mean that a jersey with "light use" is realy game issued?

[sportscentury]

It's funny you mention the Pujols jersey, because its one of the few jerseys in this auction that they label "game used". There exact terminology is "2009 Albert Pujols autographed game worn St. Louis Cardinals home jersey". It makes me nervous when some of the jerseys have the "game used" moniker, while most do not. Does this mean that a jersey with "light use" is realy game issued?


Again, you need to read the other thread that already covered this. Since you didn't want to take five seconds to search for it, here it is:

http://www.gameuseduniverse.com/vb_forum/showthread.php?t=25636

[Birdbats]

It's funny you mention the Pujols jersey, because its one of the few jerseys in this auction that they label "game used". There exact terminology is "2009 Albert Pujols autographed game worn St. Louis Cardinals home jersey". It makes me nervous when some of the jerseys have the "game used" moniker, while most do not. Does this mean that a jersey with "light use" is realy game issued?

Don't confuse the Pujols jerseys. The 2009 is game used. It's the 2001 jersey that has multiple inconsistencies.

[mattmueller]

It would appear from the photo below, that the offered jersey could have been worn during the workout or BP activities. Assuming that since there is no A.S. game patch on right arm, its a fair assumption it is on the left sleeve, which would match the offered jersey. Also would have to assume players were issued only 2 jerseys. As the All Star patch appears on both left and right sleeves of various players, I could see why the jerseys would have the patch on different sleeves. Also a possibility (slim one) that McGwire changed jerseys during the actual All Star game and wore one with the patch on the left sleeve as offered in the auction. So, as asked in a different thread, anybody have video of the game?

Also, as noted above, nowhere in the listing does Hunt say the jersey was worn in the game. Its written so that you might assume it, but it doesn't say so. I would be interested to read the LOA from Hunt and BAT.

Matt

[allstarsplus]

It would appear from the photo below, that the offered jersey could have been worn during the workout or BP activities. Assuming that since there is no A.S. game patch on right arm, its a fair assumption it is on the left sleeve, which would match the offered jersey. Also would have to assume players were issued only 2 jerseys. As the All Star patch appears on both left and right sleeves of various players, I could see why the jerseys would have the patch on different sleeves. Also a possibility (slim one) that McGwire changed jerseys during the actual All Star game and wore one with the patch on the left sleeve as offered in the auction. So, as asked in a different thread, anybody have video of the game?

Also, as noted above, nowhere in the listing does Hunt say the jersey was worn in the game. Its written so that you might assume it, but it doesn't say so. I would be interested to read the LOA from Hunt and BAT.

Matt

Good work. My read on it also was this was an All Star jersey extra that was give to the B.A.T. charity and was not worn in this game.

[nickacs]

Good work. My read on it also was this was an All Star jersey extra that was give to the B.A.T. charity and was not worn in this game.

My thoughts exactly. My personal opinion is it was "game issued", but never worn as someone already pointed out that Hunt is including "game worn" in some auction item descriptions and some not.

Great work/comments from everyone!

[mr.miracle]

It would appear from the photo below, that the offered jersey could have been worn during the workout or BP activities. Assuming that since there is no A.S. game patch on right arm, its a fair assumption it is on the left sleeve, which would match the offered jersey. Also would have to assume players were issued only 2 jerseys. As the All Star patch appears on both left and right sleeves of various players, I could see why the jerseys would have the patch on different sleeves. Also a possibility (slim one) that McGwire changed jerseys during the actual All Star game and wore one with the patch on the left sleeve as offered in the auction. So, as asked in a different thread, anybody have video of the game?

Also, as noted above, nowhere in the listing does Hunt say the jersey was worn in the game. Its written so that you might assume it, but it doesn't say so. I would be interested to read the LOA from Hunt and BAT.

Matt

This is where I could always kick myself for not taping All-Star games. There have been at least 4-5 instances in just the last year where I have desperately searching for pics from past all-star games and very few can be located. I get really pissed at Getty, Corbis etc. as well because you do a search for instance for mlb all star games and last years finale at Yankee Stadium comes up with like 200 pics. You are lucky to be able to find 5 pics of variou 1980's games. Either they don't exist or are buried

[xpress34]

I, too, sent Hunt an e-mail last night sharing the same concerns. I also gave them a half-dozen reasons why I think the 2001 Pujols jersey is not up to snuff. If they'd just put the 2001 side-by-side with the legit 2009 shirt they also are auctioning, the differences in the fonts, number/name (plate) placement and custom hem should jump out at them. They really shouldn't have to look any further than the 5 on front to know their jersey doesn't measure up.

http://www.huntauctions.com/LIVE/img12/471.jpg
http://www.huntauctions.com/LIVE/img12/466.jpg

Jeff -

Is it possible that some of the inconsistencies come from the fact that in 2001 the Cardinals Jerseys were made by Rawlings and in 2009 they were made by Majestic?

I know that once the Rockies left Russell and went to Majestic there were some changes - the biggest being the buttons on the Home White jerseys. I've mentioned it before - and I'm not sure any other team ahs ever done it - but while with Russell (who had just rcvd the MLB contract in 1993 - Rox 1st year) the Home White Game Uses and Team issued jersseys ahd UNIQUE Cream Colored buttons that were ingraved 'Colorado Rockies' around the edge of them. These jerseys were NOT available at retail until the end of the season when the Rox would send Blank Unused ones to their Dugout stores for sale.

When Majestic took over, they went staright to White Pearlized buttons - Team Issued/Game Used or Authentic (retail)/Replica.

Anyway, not defending Hunt, just palying Devil's advocate and stating what jumped out at me immediately is that you are trying to compare two distinctly different manufacturers.

Just my .02

All the best -

Chris

[xpress34]

Jeff -

Two other things I just noticed... in defense of your argument: ;)

1 - as far as I know, Albert has always had his jerseys tailored with the 'straight edge' bottom as he doesn't like tail stuck down his pants.

2 - look closely at the 2001 again... in the top pick look at the R side and the sleeve - in the bottom, look at the L. What is that tag that you can see through the jersey?

- Chris

[xpress34]

DAMN IT!!!

REVERSE the L and R I put below... ;)

[Birdbats]

In my e-mail to Hunt, I noted that there were no changes to the fonts and sizes of the numbers and letters when Majestic took over. When the Cardinals resumed putting numbers on the front of their shirts in 1999, the numbers were a bit smaller than they were in 1996 and prior -- but they haven't changed since 1999. If you look at photos of Albert from 2001, the 5 on front clearly is different than the Hunt jersey and it's positioned closer to the buttons.

http://cache2.asset-cache.net/xc/51479891.jpg?v=1&c=NewsMaker&k=2&d=17A4AD9FDB9CF1939847EC77F5F8D1CE9B8C8BE7DFBD464C 4E9C89C783688B46

http://cache2.asset-cache.net/xc/51602704.jpg?v=1&c=NewsMaker&k=2&d=AE5E3E7DB8E31417F69EB9C9A4DC4375284831B75F48EF45

As for the tagging, I think maybe you're just seeing the top half of the size flag. That size 48 flag is only about 50% exposed. I don't see any problem with the tagging front or back.

[Birdbats]

I just re-read your post -- the tag in the sleeve probably is a tag put there my MEARS.

[Birdbats]

Here's the Hunt 2001 Pujols shirt compared with a 2001 jersey that was auctioned by Christian Family Day (and once owned by Rob Steinmetz). Note the inconsistencies in the fonts (especially the 5 on front), the placement of the 5 on front, the placement of the name plate and number on the back, and the spacing of the letters on the name plate.

http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w232/birdbats/Pujolsjerseycomparision.jpg

[mattmueller]

Rob L came through with video stills of the 1999 All Star game and McGwire in pre game, and his two ABs. Patch is located on different sleeve than the offered jersey. Photos are in the thread in the Memorbilia Discussion topic. Thanks Rob.

[Birdbats]

I received this e-mail from Hunt today regarding the McGwire jersey:

I understand your question about the McGwire jersey due to the photo yousent with your email. I did some research yesterday and found a photo of Wetteland and Offerman on Getty Images #51615978 that offers evidence that the patches may have been on either arms for reasons unknown to us. Wetteland's is on his right arm and Offerman's is on his left arm. I also found an image of Martinez on Gold Medal Impressions with the patch on his left arm. One thought that has been referenced in the past (unrelated to this jersey) was that player uniform patches would sometimes be placed on their lead shoulder when batting (right or left handed) so as to provide maximum visibility on t.v. batting shots. Perhaps the athletes were issued two uniforms for the 1999 All Star game. The letter from BAT states that the uniforms used by the athletes were collected by BAT after the game, signed and given to BAT to be sold for the benefit of The Baseball Assistance Team. So, we certainly always appreciate any additional insight offered to us so as to better inform interested bidders and as such will be making a notation to the auction description online.

I am still working on evaluating the Pujols jersey and will let you know our findings when I have completed my research. Obviously, we will amend our descriptions and or remove from the auction any item we deem not to be authentic as we have done many times in the past.

Best Regards,
Cheryl Goyda

Hunt Auctions
256 Welsh Pool Rd
Exton, Pa 19341

[hblakewolf]

I received this e-mail from Hunt today regarding the McGwire jersey:

I understand your question about the McGwire jersey due to the photo yousent with your email. I did some research yesterday and found a photo of Wetteland and Offerman on Getty Images #51615978 that offers evidence that the patches may have been on either arms for reasons unknown to us. Wetteland's is on his right arm and Offerman's is on his left arm. I also found an image of Martinez on Gold Medal Impressions with the patch on his left arm. One thought that has been referenced in the past (unrelated to this jersey) was that player uniform patches would sometimes be placed on their lead shoulder when batting (right or left handed) so as to provide maximum visibility on t.v. batting shots. Perhaps the athletes were issued two uniforms for the 1999 All Star game. The letter from BAT states that the uniforms used by the athletes were collected by BAT after the game, signed and given to BAT to be sold for the benefit of The Baseball Assistance Team. So, we certainly always appreciate any additional insight offered to us so as to better inform interested bidders and as such will be making a notation to the auction description online.

I am still working on evaluating the Pujols jersey and will let you know our findings when I have completed my research. Obviously, we will amend our descriptions and or remove from the auction any item we deem not to be authentic as we have done many times in the past.

Best Regards,
Cheryl Goyda

Hunt Auctions
256 Welsh Pool Rd
Exton, Pa 19341




Jeff-
Glad to see that the folks at Hunts addressed this and replied to you.

Regrdless of this email, I've yet to see a single shot of this jersey in question being worn or a shot with the patch placement on the opposite arm as offered on this particular jersey.

I don't have any interest in hypothesis, or comparisons to other players' jerseys. Let's just stick to the facts of this prticular jersey and the lack of any evidence to support it was worn during the 1999 AS Game.

As I always note, do your own homework. In this case, my "homework" and extensive research has yet to pass the grade that this shirt was ever on the back of big MAC before, during or after the '99 AS Game. Should another forum reader have any supporting photos, please post.

Howard Wolf
hblakewolf@comcast.net

[kingjammy24]

quote from hunt's: "I did some research yesterday and found a photo of Wetteland and Offerman on Getty Images #51615978 that offers evidence that the patches may have been on either arms for reasons unknown to us. Wetteland's is on his right arm and Offerman's is on his left arm".
nonsense. obviously all-stars from different teams have long worn the ASG patch on different sleeves. as for the "reasons unknown" to hunt, let me offer the common sense explanation that it would've been very difficult to sew the ASG patch on wetteland's left sleeve when that sleeve already had a texas rangers patch sewn onto it. typically, if the default location for the ASG patch is already occupied by another team patch, they'll simply sew the ASG patch on the opposite sleeve.

http://img268.imageshack.us/img268/6444/sillyk.jpg

if cheryl/hunts had simply looked at a few more photos of the '99 rangers she would've seen why wetteland had to have the ASG patch on his right sleeve.

obviously the location of the ASG patch would be expected to vary by team given that some teams wore team patches while others didn't. however, there shouldn't be a variation of the ASG patch for a single player.

anyway, i believe this mcgwire shirt was previously auctioned off by mastro sometime around 1999/2000 when mastro received a large bulk of the B.A.T. '99 ASG shirts. see this thread: http://www.gameuseduniverse.com/vb_forum/showthread.php?t=25350

not only does the mcgwire jersey not match game photos/video, but the joe torre jersey offered by mastro/B.A.T. didn't match up either.

not only is the patch an issue but the nameplate is too high.

http://img268.imageshack.us/img268/6294/mcgwire.jpg

here's a picture of ryne sandberg during the 1991 ASG. both of the sleeves of the 1991 cubs road shirts had team patches on them (cubs patch and bear patch) so they sewed the ASG patch the only place they could..on top of one of the team patches:

http://img268.imageshack.us/img268/2301/sillyh.jpg

rudy.

[mattmueller]

From the photo I posted above, isn't the logical guess is that he was given a jersey with the patch on the left sleeve and he wore it during the workout day? That is the jersey that BAT and now Hunt received? Different question altogether why McGwire wore the full Cards uni and everybody else in the photo was wearing the "BP" jerseys.

[mattmueller]

To Jeff's reply from Hunt, and to get all this into the same thread. Rob L provided stills from McGwire pre-game, introductions, 3ABs and one trip to the on deck circle from the game in a different thread. Photos below, none match the offered.

[kingjammy24]

From the photo I posted above, isn't the logical guess is that he was given a jersey with the patch on the left sleeve and he wore it during the workout day? That is the jersey that BAT and now Hunt received?

matt,

here is the photo you posted:

http://img189.imageshack.us/img189/5569/silly.jpg

i don't believe it's logical to think that the jersey above does not have the patch on the right sleeve. if you look at the position of the sleeve crease, it seems that most of what's being seen is the rear of the sleeve. there's a lot more sleeve that's being twisted around/hidden from view. i believe the patch is on the right sleeve and it simply can't be seen. i've seen many jerseys in photos that looked like they were missing a patch but the sleeve was simply positioned/twisted in a such a way that it hid the patch.

rudy.

[kingjammy24]

Assuming that since there is no A.S. game patch on right arm...

matt,

here's what i mean by the sleeve creases. the red arrows below point to the sleeve creases. your photo is showing the rear of mcgwire's sleeve. i think you believed you were seeing the side of it.

http://img200.imageshack.us/img200/1852/sillyq.jpg

rudy.

[sportscentury]

matt,

here is the photo you posted:

http://img189.imageshack.us/img189/5569/silly.jpg

i don't believe it's logical to think that the jersey above does not have the patch on the right sleeve. if you look at the position of the sleeve crease, it seems that most of what's being seen is the rear of the sleeve. there's a lot more sleeve that's being twisted around/hidden from view. i believe the patch is on the right sleeve and it simply can't be seen. i've seen many jerseys in photos that looked like they were missing a patch but the sleeve was simply positioned/twisted in a such a way that it hid the patch.

rudy.

If you play with the contrast a bit, it looks like you can see the edge of the patch.

[mattmueller]

My post with the man hug photo really took this in a different direction than the focus should be. Hopefully it is pretty clear the offered jersey did not see All Star Game action and Hunt amends their description accordingly.

Matt

[Birdbats]

I am still working on evaluating the Pujols jersey and will let you know our findings when I have completed my research.

Best Regards,
Cheryl Goyda

Hunt Auctions
256 Welsh Pool Rd
Exton, Pa 19341


I have not yet received an e-mail with the results of Hunt's research on the 2001 Pujols jersey, but the jersey has been withdrawn (http://www.huntauctions.com/LIVE/imageviewer.cfm?auction_num=12&lot_num=471&lot_qual=) from the auction. The bidding already had exceeded $2,100. Kudos to Hunt for following up and taking the appropriate action.

[Birdbats]

Heard from Cheryl this morning. Seems they didn't reject the 2001 Pujols jersey on its own merits; it was the LOA that didn't stand up to scrutiny:

After working with the Cardinal Care Foundation we are all in agreement that the letter from them is bogus. We have not spent any time at this point going back and figuring out exactly what is the accurate representation for the jersey. The bogus letter was suspect enough to pull the jersey. We will suggest to our consigner that they may want to re-submit the jersey for a more rigorous authentication to determine exactly what he has.


Best Regards,
Cheryl Goyda

I like her comment about resubmitting the jersey for a "more rigorous authentication." :confused:

[skyking26]

Heard from Cheryl this morning. Seems they didn't reject the 2001 Pujols jersey on its own merits; it was the LOA that didn't stand up to scrutiny:

After working with the Cardinal Care Foundation we are all in agreement that the letter from them is bogus. We have not spent any time at this point going back and figuring out exactly what is the accurate representation for the jersey. The bogus letter was suspect enough to pull the jersey. We will suggest to our consigner that they may want to re-submit the jersey for a more rigorous authentication to determine exactly what he has.


Best Regards,
Cheryl Goyda

I like her comment about resubmitting the jersey for a "more rigorous authentication." :confused:
I asked Hunt's for pics of tags on the 2001 McGwire other day; no reply.

[mr.miracle]

I asked Hunt's for pics of tags on the 2001 McGwire other day; no reply.


What is really pathetic is that several of these auction companies expect the buyer to drop what amounts to serious cash on game worn jersey's and other game used and yet they provide you with two pictures or sometimes one in the writeup. I applaud the Auction Houses that actually take the time to put a full array of pics in from day one. It just seems kind of ridiculous that you would not take the time to snap a number of pics of the tail tagging on jersey's, any wash tags, etc. I wonder how many request are made once these auctions are in progress for additional pics? It must not be as many as we think since they never take the time to do it right from day one.

[skyking26]

What is really pathetic is that several of these auction companies expect the buyer to drop what amounts to serious cash on game worn jersey's and other game used and yet they provide you with two pictures or sometimes one in the writeup. I applaud the Auction Houses that actually take the time to put a full array of pics in from day one. It just seems kind of ridiculous that you would not take the time to snap a number of pics of the tail tagging on jersey's, any wash tags, etc. I wonder how many request are made once these auctions are in progress for additional pics? It must not be as many as we think since they never take the time to do it right from day one.
Yea, count me out unless I see some pics. Not even a courtesy email saying they'd get to it... Whatever.

[mr.miracle]

I generally think Hunt is a great auction house although I have never purchased anything from them. They just don't provide enough photos.