Honus Wagner Bat

[nesportspromotions]

Does anyone know what this is?

Is it a gamer? Is it just a decal bat? Thanks!

http://www.sportsworld-usa.com/larry/wagner_bat_1.jpg
http://www.sportsworld-usa.com/larry/wagner_bat_2.jpg
http://www.sportsworld-usa.com/larry/wagner_bat_3.jpg
http://www.sportsworld-usa.com/larry/wagner_bat_4.jpg
http://www.sportsworld-usa.com/larry/wagner_bat_5.jpg
http://www.sportsworld-usa.com/larry/wagner_bat_6.jpg
http://www.sportsworld-usa.com/larry/wagner_bat_7.jpg
http://www.sportsworld-usa.com/larry/wagner_bat_8.jpg
http://www.sportsworld-usa.com/larry/wagner_bat_9.jpg
http://www.sportsworld-usa.com/larry/wagner_bat_010.jpg
http://www.sportsworld-usa.com/larry/wagner_bat_011.jpg

[ghostkid]

How long is the bat and how much does it weigh?

Without provenance or picture ID, I don't think one can ever say it's a gamer...BUT IT'S STILL A GREAT BAT!!! Based on the MADE BY center label, it looks like this bat is from the 1897-1911 era. Honus Wagner was the first player to sign an endorsement contract with Hillerich/Bradsby in 1905, so I feel reasonably sure the bat dates from 1905-1911.

Please keep me in mind if you ever decide to sell this bat.

Kevin Kasper
kevinkasper@netzero.com

[nesportspromotions]

Thanks for your help!

Anyone else?

[MSpecht]

I agree with Kevin's analysis.. Decal bats appeared after the first endorsement signing on 9/1/1905 (Honus Wagner) during the 1897-1911 label period, so this bat would reasonably date between 1905-1911. Just to add a little to the post, Wagner's earliest records (1911-1912). document orders of bats weighing between 44 ounces and 50 ounces. No additional information is available from that period, Additionally, the Honus Wagner display bat from the Louisville Slugger museum is referenced as 34 1/2 inches and 38 ounces.

Good Luck in future collecting.

Mike Jackitout7@aol.com

[ghostkid]

nesportspromotions,

Have you determined the length and weight of the bat yet?

Kevin

[jboosted92]

looks like a mini-bat to me

[nesportspromotions]

Actually I'm not sure how one measures a bat. (Blushing while typing.)

If it is from the VERY top of the Barrel to the VERY bottom of the knob it measures 33 inches EXACTLY.

Thanks guys!

[nesportspromotions]

http://www.sportsworld-usa.com/larry/wagner_bat_015.jpg

[ghostkid]

It sounds like you measured the bat correctly. This is considered a full-sized decal bat, but the Wagner gamer bats sold in the past year or two have been a bit longer (34.25 - 34.5 inches). Still, as I said before, this is a great bat that most true collectors would covet (a.k.a. pay $$$). Fair market value is probably a solid 4-figure price.

Kevin
kevinkasper@netzero.com

[nesportspromotions]

Thanks for all the info Kevin!

FYI: The bat will most likely end up in auction this summer. When I decide where I'll email you a link.

I'm in Boston and there is a local auction house that I'm leaning towards b/c I really don't want to deal with the NY/NJ guys.

All the best!

[ghostkid]

You might want to consider letting all readers of this forum know BEFORE you decide to sell the bat at auction. You might actually do better to sell it here than selling it through one of the auction houses. For the big auction houses, they'll take a large chunk of the final price for commission (buyer + seller penalty = $$$). A rough guess is that around 30% of the price paid by the high bidder goes to the auction house, meaning fewer $$$ in your pocket.

Kevin

[Steve Jensen]

Hey there- We have actually sold 6 Honus Wagner bats via auction or private sale the last 3 years and are selling 2 more in July so i can share some of what we've learned about Wagner bats that may be of some help to you. the wagner bats that command top dollar measure approx. 34.5 inches as Kevin said and weigh around 38-39 ounces. do you have access to a scale to weigh it? the best one are the postal scales you can pick for $30 at your closest office supply store.

You may want to send it to MEARS for inspection and/or grading. My guess is that it would grade anywhere from an A4-A7 depending on the weight and the extent of the handle crack. if it weighs less than 37 ounces, it'll probably get a grade in the A5 range. if it weighs over 38 ounces, it would be in the A7 range, especially if it is hand turned.

The bat does exhibit the thick handle that Wagner preferred which is definitely one of his traits. if it weighs over 37 ounces, you may get quite a bit of money for that bat, especially due to the fact that it dates to his playing days. We sold a Wagner decal bat dated to his playing days for $100,000 that measured 34.5 inches and weighed 39 ounces (Graded A8) so it's probably worth your time to send it in for authentication before you decide where to move it. I think you should expect to get anywhere from $10,000-$50,000 for that bat depending on the final grade.

Best Regards,
Steve

www.vintageauthentics.com (http://www.vintageauthentics.com)
866-304-3090

[ghostkid]

Steve,

Thanks for sharing your insight into Wagner bats...not a whole lotta info out there and its nice to hear from someone with experience selling Wagner bats. Based on your suggested selling price and suggested MEARS grade, do you feel this is a Wagner gamer?

Kevin

[mjkm90]

Steve,

How can you possibly rate a bat that is significantly shorter than those he used that high? What I'm hearing you say is that any bat store model or other that simply falls in a size a weight range can be sold as a gamer. That seems like a complete joke. If someone is willing to pay $100,000 for a bat with zero provenance, they aren't making a wise investment.

Mike H.

[BoneRubbedBat]

I don't think this is a professional model Wagner bat. The facts that 1. decal bats were available to the public, 2. there is no documentation to back up that Wagner ever used bats less than about 34.5" in length, and 3. the knob does not appear hand-turned - all lead to the most likely conclusion that this is a store model bat.

I have had two sidewritten Wagner bats over the past couple of years. One of them was 35" and 35 oz (graded an 8), and the other was 36" and 35.2 oz (graded a 9).

What Steve is stating is that MEARS will grade bats if they meet certain requirements/specifications. If this bat met all of the professional requirements for a Wagner bat except for length, MEARS would probably grade it. This is evidenced by some of the recent HOF bats that have been graded by MEARS, but that are shorter than factory records (34" Ruths, 34" Williams, etc). If it is determined that it is 100% retail, then they won't grade it.

When we get a bat graded, we are getting more of a "probablility scale" than a "use" scale. What is the probablility that this bat was used by player X? Look at the base grading for this info, not the subtractions for cracks, missing pieces, etc. For example: If a bat is initially base graded a 5, then has subtractions for wrong length (-1), wrong weight (-1), and a non-hand-turned knob (-1), then the probability grade is a 3. A 3 would not instill much confidence in me to spend high dollar for that bat.

This Wagner bat is still a remarkable specimen because of the retained decal, and I think would command a price in the low four-figures.


Marcus

[vintagesportscollector]

I agree with Marcus and Mike. This appears to be a short store model bat with no provenance, and no apparent evidence it’s a professional model or gamer. Probably no more than A3, if that, and I would guess anywhere from $1,000 - $5,000 given “fair” quality of the decal. Still a wonderful piece.

Joe K.

[Steve Jensen]

The knob that was pictured did not appear to have inch marks on it which would mean that it is probably not a store model bat. i could not tell if it was hand turned which would add to the possibility of it being game used. my opinion is based on the fact that i've seen store model decal bats and game used decal bats and this one appears to be game used. the decal on the store model decal bats look much different than this one. The handle on this one is much thicker and stood out to me. based on MEARS grading criteria i'm just guessing that it would be anywhere from an A4-A7 but it will depend heavily on the weight. either way, a very nice bat.

Best,
Steve

www.vintageauthentics.com (http://www.vintageauthentics.com)
866-304-3090

[vintagesportscollector]

Steve- How do you reconcile that fact that this bat is 33" and the possibility of it being game used? Is that even possible if Wagner never used bats less than about 34.5" in length?

[Steve Jensen]

i dont think that anyone can definitively say that he NEVER used 33 inch bats. What you can say is that he preferred the 34.5 inch bat. We sold a side written bat that he sent to louisville that was 34.5 inches so we know that is a preferred length. that fact is, in the deadball era, players were known to use use shorter and lighter bats on occasion. we have definitely seen that his coaches bats are shorter and lighter than the bats from his playing days.

[vintagesportscollector]

That's fair. Never is too strong a word. But there is no evidence Wagner used a 33". Seems doubtful it would even grade a base A5 since it doesn't match his know specs. It seems more likely this is a store model...but who knows. That and given the lack of provenance, any large investment in this would seem unwise.

[nesportspromotions]

OK sorry I've been away for a while...

This bat has gotten some SERIOUS feedback!

I'm red faced AGAIN but... Who is MEARS? How do I go about sending a bat to him? Does anyone know the cost for his inspection & letter?

When I joined gameuseduniverse.com I'm entitled to a free Authentication from Global. Should I use that for this bat?

Thanks AGAIN!

You guys are the most helpful people I've met over the net.

[trsent]

OK sorry I've been away for a while...

This bat has gotten some SERIOUS feedback!

I'm red faced AGAIN but... Who is MEARS? How do I go about sending a bat to him? Does anyone know the cost for his inspection & letter?

When I joined gameuseduniverse.com I'm entitled to a free Authentication from Global. Should I use that for this bat?

Thanks AGAIN!

You guys are the most helpful people I've met over the net.

Go to:

http://www.mearsonline.com/

[ChrisCavalier]

OK sorry I've been away for a while...

This bat has gotten some SERIOUS feedback!

I'm red faced AGAIN but... Who is MEARS? How do I go about sending a bat to him? Does anyone know the cost for his inspection & letter?

When I joined gameuseduniverse.com I'm entitled to a free Authentication from Global. Should I use that for this bat?

Thanks AGAIN!

You guys are the most helpful people I've met over the net.

Hello nesports,

Regarding bat authentications, you currently have three primary options:

1) PSA/DNA - the authenticators are John Taube and Vince Malta

2) MEARS - the authenticators are Dave Bushing and Troy Kinunen

3) Global - the authenticator is Mike Specht (who contributed to this thread...post #4)

As you can see from this thread there are different approaches to the authentication process, some of which are more liberal than others. I have had a number of experiences with all of the bat authenticators mentioned above and my personal preferences are Taube/Malta and Mike Specht.

You may also want to seek feedback from some of the other members as well.

Sincerely,
Chris Cavalier

[nesportspromotions]

It weighs 36 ounces....

I just weighed it.

Anyone have any further suggestions?

Mears with shipping & paying for their letter will cost over $400. I don't want to send it to them unless their letter will help it bring $2,000+ in an auction.

What do you guys think? Is it worth it?

THANKS!

[sportscentury]

Mears with shipping & paying for their letter will cost over $400. I don't want to send it to them unless their letter will help it bring $2,000+ in an auction.

If you are unsure of its authenticity, this is a risk, I understand. My recommendation would be for you to post photos on this website and ask the many knowledgeable members of this forum. Then, based on what folks tell you, you can make a more educated decision as to whether the $400 investment will pay off in an auction down the road. Make sense?

As for Chris' suggestions of bat authenticators, they are all very good. Mike Specht is on this site a lot and is an endlessly selfless and helpful person (I single him out because of his involvement with the site - the other guys have all been very nice and helpful to me over the years, too)and he could probably give you some very good information if you simply post the pics and details on this site. Jim Caravello is also well respected and involved in this site, and may also be able to help.

There are one or two other "bat experts" who write letters for bats, as well, but I would stay away (they are not listed on Chris' list) as I have seen endless mistakes (the "mistakes" are always made in their own favor, as they are made with respect to bats they are selling!) and I know that they do not have the factory records that the gentlemen on Chris' list have ... so be careful.

Reid

[trsent]

Another idea is if you are looking to sell the item, send it to a major auction house for submission and they will have the item authenticated in advance of sale.

I know Mastro, Grey Flannel and American Memorabilia all partake in such a practice as I am sure do other major auction houses.

[Steve Jensen]

being that the bat measures 33 inches and weighs 36 ounces, my guess is that it would probably grade an A6 or A7. it would lose 1 point for being a little short but i believe the 36 ounces falls within the acceptable category due to aging. Bats lose a little weight over time so i think 36 ounces is ok. i really dont think you could lose anything by submitting it for authentication. I think MEARS and PSA only charge for actually writing the LOA which means that it passed and was graded. i think the worse you could do is get an A6, and for a player era Wagner, you're going to get at least in the $20,000 range with a possibility of more if it grades an A7. if you auction it, just negotiate to have the auction house eat the authentication fee as Joe suggested and you can't go wrong, we definitely would for a bat like that. i amagine any auction would. Good luck, that is a quality bat.

Steve Jensen
www.vintageauthentics.com (http://www.vintageauthentics.com)
866-304-3090

[b.heagy]

I would put it in one of the major auction houses with a reserve. As Joel pointed out the big guys have the authenticaters come in and review items. If it is a gamer they will let it be known since they would get a nice chunk of comission. Could be a professional model used by another player as well. Hard to say how it would turn out but worth the effort.

Bill

[trsent]

It should be noted, if our ideas are clicking, Steve Jensen at Vintage Authentics from the post above would be a great choice of an auction house to consign to.

[ghostkid]

Steve,

Wow! $20K or more for a decal bat that falls outside the known specs of a Honus Wagner gamer??? I'm shocked, as I figured a bat like this might sell at auction for $4000-5000, minus commission. I guess the difference is that you are assuming this is a Wagner gamer, and I think it's just a very cool vintage decal bat made during Wagner's playing days. I'm looking forward to hearing what the professional authenticators think.

Kevin

[Steve Jensen]

I agree in that it will be interesting to see how things turn out. I am, by no means, an authenticator. I'm just basing my opinion on past experiences with buying and selling many Wagner bats and the public
demand due to scarcity. We had a Wagner decal bat from his playing days sell for $100,000+ and we've sold quite a few other Wagners (both player & coaches bats) so i have seen plenty of them come in and out. Short and light Wagner post career coaches bats typically sell in the $15-20,000 range so what is a bat from his playing days worth? Who knows, but i'd rather have this one than a coaches bat as a collector. That is probably why the best course of action is to auction it and see what it commands on the free market.

Based on the grading criteria that MEARS employs and the fact that there are a severe lack of records from this era, I feel this bat has a lot of potential. It may not be the caliber of the Wagner decal we sold for $100,000 because it's not as long. However, players from the dead ball era were definitely known to use shorter bats and the weight and thick handle are definitely Wagner-esque characteristics that are unique to him.

[nesportspromotions]

WOW! This is a huge range...

$1000 - 100,000

OK gentleman time to pick your brain again...

Who's letter is better strictly thinking BANG FOR THE BUCK?

PSA - Global - Mears...... Or another?

YOU GUYS ARE AWESOME!!!

[MSpecht]

Hi--
this has turned out to be a very interesting post, and I have enjoyed all the thoughts and opinions offered. Here are mine, just to give you an idea of some of the considerations that go into an authentication process.

First- as previously pointed out, there are few documented records available for that era, however records do exist. As far as records regarding the manufacturer's labeling, the branding is consistent with a time frame of 1905-1911 within the 1897-1911 labeling period due to the presence of the decal and the date of Wagner's endorsement contract. Using that as a jump off point, what personal records are available for Honus Wagner during that time frame?

There are only a few written H & B records known to exist prior to 1920, most notably a logbook dated from 1911 to 1914. It is clearly not a complete record of the era, and is quite worn, with missing and obscured pages. Still, it is the only documented record of that period. Annual logbooks exist for the years between 1920-1929 (except for 1924), but Wagner's last professional game was played on 9/17/1917. Thus, the incomplete 1911-1914 logbook is the best source of information. What does it say?

The following entries are the references to Wagner in that logbook;
1911- No Specified Model / 44 ounces
3- Models Not Specified / 50 ounces
1912- No Specified Model / 45 ounces

...and that's it. the sum total of documented Honus Wagner factory records, with one exception. The Honus Wagner display bat in the H & B Louisville Slugger Museum is 34.5 inches / 38 ounces. His model pulled from the vault in the early 1940s and indexed was given Model Number W107, and is most characterized by the thick handle.

Second- When looking at this bat from the photos (some details are difficult to see) It clearly has a decal on the barrel. The significance is that decal bats were available to the public, however due to recent research, examples of players using decal bats in professional games have surfaced, although it was clearly not the norm. I believe the presence of the decal is a push-- probably weighted, however, toward a retail bat (remember that Wagner signed H & B's first endorsement contract, and presumably the company built a significant public marketing effort around him at the time). In one of the above posts, Steve Jensen indicates that in his experience, retail decals appear different than decals he has seen on professional model bats. That being the case, I would urge him to make a future post that offers a photographic comparison from his previous auctions that could be used as a resource for vintage bat collectors. Regardless, researched evidence exists that decal bats were used in professional games, and were also available (presumably in much greater numbers) to the public. Documented records above shed no light on the decal issue.

Third- This bat, as measured by the original poster, measures 33 inches. That is 1.5" shorter that the only documented records that exist (Louisville Slugger Museum bat) , and is between 1.25" and 1.5" shorter than bats that have proven to be the most valuable in the auction experience, some with possible additional provenance that increase the probability of the bat being used by Honus Wagner. Most authenticators use plus/minus 0.25 inches as acceptable deviation from existing records as a standard. Does this mean that Wagner absolutely never used a 33" bat....no, but then you can't say that he absolutely never used a 28" bat or a 55" bat either, or a 30" bat, or any number you want to choose. An informed decision has to weigh the probability against the possibility, and determine value based on that assessment.

Fourth- the original poster weighed this bat at 36 ounces. How does this measure up to the documented evidence? Actually, more documentation exists concerning the weight of Wagner's professional model bats ordered for his personal use than any other aspect of his bats. Let's walk through this. This bat , if potentially game used by Wagner, dates from between 1905 and 1911, based on manufacturer's labeling, Wagner's endorsement contract, and the presence of the decal. The most pertinent evidence from that time period, the 1911-1914 log book, documents orders of bats by Wagner with weights of 44 ounces and 50 ounces in 1911 and a weight of 45 ounces in 1912. As most authenticators use a standard of plus / minus 2 ounces as a standard, this bat is between a half a pound (8 ounces) and nearly a pound (14 ounces) lighter than documented orders. One poster mentioned the use of lighter bats in the deadball era as a possible remedy for this significant difference in weight. Possibly, but remember that in athletic theory at the turn of the century, the prevailing wisdom was that weight = power, and only within the last 20 or 25 years (roughly a hundred years later) was there a switch to the idea that bat speed = power. H & B records of the era show order after order of bats that were definitely on the heavier (40 ounce plus) side than the lighter side. Also, in trying to logically think through this bat, does it seem more or less probable that, as a younger, stronger man between 1905 and 1910, Wagner would have used a bat significantly (almost a pound) lighter than his documented orders at age 37 ? This bat does come closer to the weight of the Museum bat, despite the variation in length, than the documented shipments to Wagner himself.

In the final analysis, it seems more likely that the probability that this bat was used by Honus Wagner in a professional game between the years 1905 and 1911 is very slight. If it is, indeed, a profeessional model bat, exhibiting professional game use (detailed physical examination necessary), that game use was possible by any player of the era. Thus, if the bat, upon examination, is determined to be a professional model, then it is a very nice Honus Wagner model decal bat, manufactured during his playing career, not matching documented personal factory records for Wagner, with possible professional game use by an unidentified player. If the bat were to receive a grade as suggested in an earlier post, potential buyers must read the Letter of Opinion closely and understand that the final grade, which attempts to determine a degree of probablility of use by a particular player, is currently based on a system that allows the most important factor of probability -- whether the bat matches known, documented factory records -- to be no more important than apparent professional game use by an unknown player. Unfortunately, many buyers look only at a final grade of a bat in an auction, say A7, and do not read or understand the implications of the written part of the worksheet / letter which often may state that the player never ordered that certain model or length of bat during his career.

That is the value of, and motivation behind, the Game Used Universe website-- the education of collectors. I personally enjoyed the posts from everyone on this topic, and the original poster certainly received a wealth of information about his bat. I don't know if this bat ultimately falls into the $1,000 range or the $100,000 range-- the market is what it is, and is influenced by any number of factors. I do believe, however, that an authenticator who may try to place this specific bat into Honus Wagner's hands isn't saying " It is possible that Wagner used this bat." Rather, he is saying "Well, it is not impossible." That difference is lost on a large segment of the collecting hobby.

Good Luck in future collecting.

Mike Jackitout7@aol.com (Jackitout7@aol.com)

[ghostkid]

Mike,
Your comments are very thorough and well stated. I, for one, appreciate your efforts and admire your knowledge and skillful analysis of this bat. It seems bat collectors may now have another viable option when geting their game used bat authenticated - Mike Specht of Global!!!

Kevin Kasper

[ChrisCavalier]

Mike,
Your comments are very thorough and well stated. I, for one, appreciate your efforts and admire your knowledge and skillful analysis of this bat. It seems bat collectors may now have another viable option when geting their game used bat authenticated - Mike Specht of Global!!!

Kevin Kasper
Hello Kevin,

I couldn't agree more. Despite being one the co-authors of the book 'Bats' over ten years ago, I think until recently Mike has been one of the best kept secrets in terms of resources for game used bat collectors. However, as you can see from Mike's work on the GUU site and elsewhere, I think the secret is now getting out.

Sincerely,
Christopher Cavalier

[mjkm90]

imo there is absolutely nooooooooooo waaaaaaaaaaaaay that bat is going to sniff $20,000. If you don't have more than being in the weight range for a bat a player used duing his lifetime you are A5 or less. It is the wrong length, a decal bat, and has never ever been placed within 100 miles of a pro game by any of it's prior owners. There is ZERO provenance and NO record of Wagner ever ever ever using a decal bat. I'm sorry to get on a soap box like this, but this is crazy. It is a great bat, but given what is known the odds of it being a Wagner gamer are tiny.

Mike H.

[MGHProductions]

I have to go with Mike on this one. Wagner bats from the 20's were longer and heavier therefore making it hard for me to believe that he used a shorter/lighter bat in the prime of his career vs his coaching days. There's no iron clad evidence placing this in Wagner's hands and in my opinion would be tough to authenticate as a pro model wagner. Still a nice bat, but probably not even worth 5k. It's nice to see everyone's opinion and thoughts.
Matt

[vintagesportscollector]

Here is a Wagner decal currently up on Hunt...

http://www.huntauctions.com/online/imageviewer.cfm?auction_num=28&lot_num=152&lot_qual=&url_referer=view_lots_items_list.cfm

[nesportspromotions]

"It is the wrong length, a decal bat, and has never ever been placed within 100 miles of a pro game by any of it's prior owners."

INCORRECT! It was obtained in Boston @ 3 miles from where the Boston National League team(s) played the Pirates many times over a 5-6 span.





There is ZERO provenance and NO record of Wagner ever ever ever using a decal bat.

CORRECT! I have nothing that says where it came from. No letter, no story... Nothing at all. It just magically appeared in my collection. Seriously. LOL!