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3arod13
07-30-2009, 04:08 PM
ESPN - Jose Canseco Said He Knows A HOFer That Used. Who do you think it is?

Rickey Henderson?

cordovacollector
07-30-2009, 04:09 PM
I mentioned a guess once ... but I won't make that mistake again, even if I still believe it.

jwasserman
07-30-2009, 04:15 PM
he was teammates with boggs at the end of his career. none of the others really fit. unless barney dreyfuss was juicing back in the day

bigtruck260
07-30-2009, 04:17 PM
he was teammates with boggs at the end of his career. none of the others really fit. unless barney dreyfuss was juicing back in the day

Reggie Jackson played in Oakland in 1987....

3arod13
07-30-2009, 04:26 PM
Hope he mentions the player soon. To make the statement, but not share the name, serves no purpose.

You all realize there are many more players than the 104 who tested positive, right?

Dewey2007
07-30-2009, 04:49 PM
ESPN - Jose Canseco Said He Knows A HOFer That Used. Who do you think it is?

Rickey Henderson?

If it's Rickey Henderson I think I'll give up being a baseball fan for good. I think Rickey was just a freak of nature who didn't need to juice.

emann
07-30-2009, 04:55 PM
Rickey would be my "guess (that's all it is, so please don't act like jerks and attack personally over it)". Canseco played with him and McGwire at the dawn of the juicing era...

Do I think that detracts from Rickey's overall ability or HOF credentials? No. Rickey is one of the greatest players of all time. That said, he's probably not one of the smartest players of all time, so it wouldn't shock me if he tried steroids via Canseco at some point in Oakland.

Boggs makes little sense (aside from the fact he was struggling to make 3,000 at the end), his body seemed too beaten down by the point he retired.

bigtruck260
07-30-2009, 05:19 PM
If it's Rickey Henderson I think I'll give up being a baseball fan for good. I think Rickey was just a freak of nature who didn't need to juice.

Rickey needed steriods the way Barry Sanders needed them :D

I would think Rickey has a much higher self importance than to do steroids - or anything that would supposedly make him 'better'. He was born an athlete...he just chose to play baseball.

Bondsgloves
07-30-2009, 05:25 PM
If it is Rickey, which wouldn't be shocking to me. Do you think Canseco waited until after he was elected to bring this up, just to say he knows a Hall of Famer who juiced is in the hall. Not to hurt Rickey's chances.

rj_lucas
07-30-2009, 05:37 PM
If it is Rickey, which wouldn't be shocking to me. Do you think Canseco waited until after he was elected to bring this up, just to say he knows a Hall of Famer who juiced is in the hall. Not to hurt Rickey's chances.

That kind of tactfulness on Canseco's part would be inconsistent with everything else he has said up to this point.

Rick
rickjlucas@gmail.com

Fnazxc0114
07-30-2009, 05:45 PM
has he been wrong yet?

spartakid
07-30-2009, 05:51 PM
has he been wrong yet?

He hasn't been proven wrong yet (to my knowledge) and the fact that this comes out right after Rickey's induction...... not a coincidence in my opinion. There's a myriad of reasons why he would've waited until after the induction, but I certainly wouldn't be surprised if it was Rickey and with the timing, it makes the most sense that it is him.

3arod13
07-30-2009, 05:55 PM
Nobody would surprise me at this point. Not even if Cal Ripken Jr.

3arod13
07-30-2009, 05:56 PM
Nobody would surprise me at this point. Not even if Cal Ripken Jr.

I'm not saying Cal Ripken Jr. did. Just saying at this point, nothing would shock me.

Dewey2007
07-30-2009, 06:33 PM
He hasn't been proven wrong yet (to my knowledge) and the fact that this comes out right after Rickey's induction...... not a coincidence in my opinion. There's a myriad of reasons why he would've waited until after the induction, but I certainly wouldn't be surprised if it was Rickey and with the timing, it makes the most sense that it is him.

I think it's Canseco's way of just keeping his name out there especially during a big time for MLB with the recent HOF inductions. This is what Jose had to say about Rickey in "Juiced":

"Rickey Henderson was a genetic freak, a man with such incredible legs and arms that even past his fortieth birthday he looked like a mini body builder. To me, he was one of the best players in the game, and maybe the greatest leadoff hitter of all-time. He was a good teammate to have too. He just played the game, worked hard, and busted his ass everday"

Also, this was in a local column written last month.

"But there are signs that Canseco might be forgiven, at least in certain quarters. Rickey Henderson, headed for the Hall of Fame in August, said Tuesday that he'd have been happy to see Canseco (at the 1989 WS team reunion). He also stood up for Canseco when "Juiced" came out, saying that the former Bash Brother wasn't a liar."

My guess is Boggs. He might have used them to help him with injuries during the last couple years of his career.

spartakid
07-30-2009, 06:43 PM
I think it's Canseco's way of just keeping his name out there especially during a big time for MLB with the recent HOF inductions. This is what Jose had to say about Rickey in "Juiced":

"Rickey Henderson was a genetic freak, a man with such incredible legs and arms that even past his fortieth birthday he looked like a mini body builder. To me, he was one of the best players in the game, and maybe the greatest leadoff hitter of all-time. He was a good teammate to have too. He just played the game, worked hard, and busted his ass everday"

Also, this was in a local column written last month.

"But there are signs that Canseco might be forgiven, at least in certain quarters. Rickey Henderson, headed for the Hall of Fame in August, said Tuesday that he'd have been happy to see Canseco (at the 1989 WS team reunion). He also stood up for Canseco when "Juiced" came out, saying that the former Bash Brother wasn't a liar."

My guess is Boggs. He might have used them to help him with injuries during the last couple years of his career.

Possibly, and it's hard to speculate without Jose coming out and saying it, which I believe he'll eventually do. I wholeheartedly agree with you that he's trying to stay in the spotlight by intermittently dropping names of players. This is why I wouldn't be surprised if he kept a few of the names to himself and didn't mention them as steroid users in his book. Otherwise, if he were to release all the names at once, we'd forget about him. The one reason I believe it's Henderson is that this would be the time for him to drop Henderson's name if he was ever going to do it, basically like a statement that a user has been elected. If it's not Henderson, then Jose picked a very bad time to do this, right after the inductions. My money's on Henderson.

3arod13
07-30-2009, 06:47 PM
Possibly, and it's hard to speculate without Jose coming out and saying it, which I believe he'll eventually do. I wholeheartedly agree with you that he's trying to stay in the spotlight by intermittently dropping names of players. This is why I wouldn't be surprised if he kept a few of the names to himself and didn't mention them as steroid users in his book. Otherwise, if he were to release all the names at once, we'd forget about him. The one reason I believe it's Henderson is that this would be the time for him to drop Henderson's name if he was ever going to do it, basically like a statement that a user has been elected. If it's not Henderson, then Jose picked a very bad time to do this, right after the inductions. My money's on Henderson.

I also think it's possibly Henderson. Only because Canseco never mentioned a HOFer before. After Henderson's induction, he mentions it.

vonbrandingo
07-30-2009, 07:25 PM
Confident it's not Boggs. Loud and clear message even after a few beers.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wpj7M_ik77Y

emann
07-30-2009, 08:31 PM
My guess is Boggs. He might have used them to help him with injuries during the last couple years of his career.

See, I find that more of a reason Boggs didn't use them. He barely broke 3K hits and was struggling at the end to keep going in that last season... I think if he used them, he may have kept playing a bit longer with less struggle.

Boggs played like 90 games & Canseco played about 60 together. Both had short seasons on the D-Rays...

For the record, I own 2 Boggs, 2 Hendersons and 1 Canseco bat, so obviously I'm not playing favorites. ;)

TFig27
07-30-2009, 08:40 PM
I heard Boggs did something else :D :

http://stevemasonsmog.typepad.com/710_espns_smog_steve_maso/2007/09/wade-boggs-can-.html

On KJR radio in Seattle back in April, he claimed that Boggs could drink 50-60 beers on a trip from New York to Seattle. I'm not talking about drinking 50-60 beers while on a 3-game road trip to Seattle. As a player, he could drink that much on the way to Seattle. Later in the interview, Nelson called former teammate Paul Sorrento on the air, and he estimated that Boggs could actually drink 70 beers on a cross-country trip

suicide_squeeze
07-30-2009, 08:54 PM
It's absolutely positively Henderson.

And I'm sure the abuse lasted for many years.......MANY years.

He was a genetic freak alright.

Just not naturally. IMO.

Lokee
07-30-2009, 10:42 PM
I have no evidence on this but how come no one has mentioned Nolan Ryan ? He played with Jose for 2 years. It is quite possible.

frikativ54
07-30-2009, 11:24 PM
has he been wrong yet?

He lied and lied for Roger Clemens. I sure wonder what other secrets he is conveniently keeping.

spartakid
07-31-2009, 12:23 AM
He lied and lied for Roger Clemens. I sure wonder what other secrets he is conveniently keeping.

That may be true, but has he ever lied about the subject that we're talking about? Besides the legal issues he'd face (not that he has much to take at this point) he would lose all credibility, which I believe he still has when it comes to steroids. I'm sure that he knows tons of people that used, which would lead me to believe that he doesn't have to lie about steroids. In other words he has enough good information, and it would be stupid of him to taint that with lies because if he were ever outright caught in a lie, we wouldn't believe or read anything else he had to say. I have no doubt that he is doing this for spiteful and selfish reasons, maybe even a combination of the two, but he has been reliable with the players he's named (to the best of my knowledge and someone correct me if he's been proven to be lying about someone using) and in the end that's what matters.

frikativ54
07-31-2009, 12:43 AM
That may be true, but has he ever lied about the subject that we're talking about?

Yes - Didn't Canseco repeatedly say that Clemens was clean? Wasn't he willing to sign an affidavit saying that Clemens never tried steroids?

Or am I misremembering? :p

Carlevv
07-31-2009, 01:12 AM
Its Reggie Jackson he's talking about 100 percent!

Second of all, Steroids isnt the only way to "cheat". Do you think guys like Wade Boggs, and Cal Ripken never took amphetimines? How do you explain playing for 20 odd years and never had taken something that is banned by baseball today. Steroids is one of MANY drugs players have been taking for a lot of years. I get tired of everyone thinking its just steroids. Guys have been taking testosterone, HGH, greenies, aderal, dexidren, ridlin, and every other drug they could get their hands on before testing was introduced. I can assume a lot more than one hall of fame player has taken one of the drugs i mentioned let alone snorted a line of coke.

JasonM33
07-31-2009, 01:26 AM
You all know I'm a huge Canseco fan. With that said all this "I know but I'm not telling" stuff is getting old. I liked him better when he was just ratting people out and they were all mad. Canseco lot credibility with me when it became clear that he was outing certain guys and covering up for other guys. I think if you are going to start telling on people you should tell on them all. If not then keep your trap shut about it.

Oh yeah, for the record it better not be Rickey.

whatupyos
07-31-2009, 01:31 AM
Its Reggie Jackson he's talking about 100 percent!

Second of all, Steroids isnt the only way to "cheat". Do you think guys like Wade Boggs, and Cal Ripken never took amphetimines? How do you explain playing for 20 odd years and never had taken something that is banned by baseball today. Steroids is one of MANY drugs players have been taking for a lot of years. I get tired of everyone thinking its just steroids. Guys have been taking testosterone, HGH, greenies, aderal, dexidren, ridlin, and every other drug they could get their hands on before testing was introduced. I can assume a lot more than one hall of fame player has taken one of the drugs i mentioned let alone snorted a line of coke.


THANK YOU!!!!! I've felt the exact same. You have people on here talking about the "purity" of the game blah blah blah blah. It was not uncommon to have a bowl full of greenies in the clubhouse in the 50's-70's. Guys would take handfulls of that stuff. Its not steroids, yes, I know but when you're hurt and not feeling your best, just pop a few greenies and you're flying high, literally...or snort a line. Look at the coke heads in the game! I'm sure we all know who they are. I could care less whether some's juicing, or snorting coke or popping greenies like they're breathe mints. I love the game period. It pisses me off when I hear "cheater" and "purity of the game" when greenies isn't natural just like steriods aren't so get off your high horse, all those people who are holier than thou. Enjoy the game for its entertainment purposes. Look at the WWE. I enjoy the entertainment value. Its a guys soap opera. What about all of you people who speed on the free way, or cheat on a test....ooooooooo, you're a cheater, what about the purity of academics!! See how ridiculous that is?

Now for all you who like to argue, I am not saying everyone should do roids and pop greenies, just don't say the roid users are bad and let the greenie poppers get off like they are saints.

Aaron

whatupyos
07-31-2009, 01:33 AM
Yes - Didn't Canseco repeatedly say that Clemens was clean? Wasn't he willing to sign an affidavit saying that Clemens never tried steroids?

Or am I misremembering? :p


I agree with you. Did he protected Clemens in his book. I believe he's even said Clemens never even cheated on his wife and then the whole country singer fiasco came about.

I can't wait for his next fight. He'll probably get his arse whooped by another nobody.

Aaron

3arod13
07-31-2009, 03:36 AM
Its Reggie Jackson he's talking about 100 percent!

Second of all, Steroids isnt the only way to "cheat". Do you think guys like Wade Boggs, and Cal Ripken never took amphetimines? How do you explain playing for 20 odd years and never had taken something that is banned by baseball today. Steroids is one of MANY drugs players have been taking for a lot of years. I get tired of everyone thinking its just steroids. Guys have been taking testosterone, HGH, greenies, aderal, dexidren, ridlin, and every other drug they could get their hands on before testing was introduced. I can assume a lot more than one hall of fame player has taken one of the drugs i mentioned let alone snorted a line of coke.

Well said! I find it ridiculous that so many want to act as if it's only during this era that this type of cheating/conduct occurred.

3arod13
07-31-2009, 05:58 AM
Its Reggie Jackson he's talking about 100 percent!

Second of all, Steroids isnt the only way to "cheat". Do you think guys like Wade Boggs, and Cal Ripken never took amphetimines? How do you explain playing for 20 odd years and never had taken something that is banned by baseball today. Steroids is one of MANY drugs players have been taking for a lot of years. I get tired of everyone thinking its just steroids. Guys have been taking testosterone, HGH, greenies, aderal, dexidren, ridlin, and every other drug they could get their hands on before testing was introduced. I can assume a lot more than one hall of fame player has taken one of the drugs i mentioned let alone snorted a line of coke.

What bothers me more than anything is, players from this era will take the blame and be held accountable for this. Especially those who are on the 2003 list. But we know there are many more, and it has gone on well before this era. And you have those players sitting back, keeping their mouths shut, while they watch players from this era take all the blame.

I don't care much for Canseco, but I wish more players would speak out. Let's get it all out so we can move on. It's not just this era. It's been going on in baseball prior to this era!

hiramman
07-31-2009, 07:24 AM
Sounds like Canseco's leading up to another BOOK.

MJB14
07-31-2009, 07:41 AM
Let's put it this way. If Canseco did lie about any of the players he named for using steroids then why haven't any of them filed legal actions against him for defamation of character. If you were one of those players and you were clean wouldn't you do something or take some sort of action against him for tarnishing your image? That's how I see it.

sylbry
07-31-2009, 08:18 AM
I agree with you. Did he protected Clemens in his book. I believe he's even said Clemens never even cheated on his wife and then the whole country singer fiasco came about.

I can't wait for his next fight. He'll probably get his arse whooped by another nobody.

Aaron

If you read Canseco's second book he tries to explain himself on Clemens. He said he thought Clemens was a user but had no way to prove it. He also blames the media for ignoring/covering up his Clemens accusations.

It has been awhile since I read it and can't remember the specifics.

Not sure what to think on Henderson. He certainly fits the profile in this picture but at the same time Rickey's body never broke down and he was also big before he ever met Canseco (see his 1985 card). I bet Rickey could still play today.

cjclong
07-31-2009, 08:29 AM
has he been wrong yet?
Has Conseco been wrong yet? I don't know, he said he didn't think Clemens used. Should we believe him on one and not another. I really don't see the point in this trying to guess who and who didn't. All it does is malign players who haven't used. If Canseco "knows" an HOF player that used why doesn't he just name him and not taint everyone else. Maybe he needs to sell another book.

sylbry
07-31-2009, 08:47 AM
he was teammates with boggs at the end of his career. none of the others really fit. unless barney dreyfuss was juicing back in the day

Boggs was on something else.

http://stevemasonsmog.typepad.com/710_espns_smog_steve_maso/2007/09/wade-boggs-can-.html

rj_lucas
07-31-2009, 09:28 AM
I think the more interesting question is what happens when the name does come out (which it will)? Assuming there's proof, and not simply allegations, will the person be removed from the Hall of Fame?

Not likely.

Which begs the question, how can the baseball writers justify excluding other players whose only shortfall is alleged PED use?

Rick
rickjlucas@gmail.com

spartakid
07-31-2009, 09:44 AM
Yes - Didn't Canseco repeatedly say that Clemens was clean? Wasn't he willing to sign an affidavit saying that Clemens never tried steroids?

Or am I misremembering? :p

Sorry I should have phrased that differently, I meant to say that he's never implicated someone that has not used steroids, thus when he says someone has, it's always been good info.

suicide_squeeze
07-31-2009, 10:00 AM
You all know I'm a huge Canseco fan. With that said all this "I know but I'm not telling" stuff is getting old. I liked him better when he was just ratting people out and they were all mad. Canseco lot credibility with me when it became clear that he was outing certain guys and covering up for other guys. I think if you are going to start telling on people you should tell on them all. If not then keep your trap shut about it.

Oh yeah, for the record it better not be Rickey.


Jason,

I just have to know my friend.......WHAT possible facit of his career makes you a Jose Canseco fan?

The 90's "twitching" from overdosing on PED's? The Madonna history? The lack of care about the dead and suffering during the "Quake Series in '89" when all Jose cared about was getting back to playing? His nickname "The chemist"? His promotional infiltration to many players of drugs that helped ruin the record books of the game? His complete and thorough backlash on the game after he got everything deserved by self-imposed bad will to the game?

I'm sorry, but I can't think of a more worthless individual in the history of baseball to have ever surfaced.......than Jose Canseco.

Please........enlighten me?

suicide_squeeze
07-31-2009, 10:16 AM
THANK YOU!!!!! I've felt the exact same. You have people on here talking about the "purity" of the game blah blah blah blah. It was not uncommon to have a bowl full of greenies in the clubhouse in the 50's-70's. Guys would take handfulls of that stuff. Its not steroids, yes, I know but when you're hurt and not feeling your best, just pop a few greenies and you're flying high, literally...or snort a line. Look at the coke heads in the game! I'm sure we all know who they are. I could care less whether some's juicing, or snorting coke or popping greenies like they're breathe mints. I love the game period. It pisses me off when I hear "cheater" and "purity of the game" when greenies isn't natural just like steriods aren't so get off your high horse, all those people who are holier than thou. Enjoy the game for its entertainment purposes. Look at the WWE. I enjoy the entertainment value. Its a guys soap opera. What about all of you people who speed on the free way, or cheat on a test....ooooooooo, you're a cheater, what about the purity of academics!! See how ridiculous that is?

Now for all you who like to argue, I am not saying everyone should do roids and pop greenies, just don't say the roid users are bad and let the greenie poppers get off like they are saints.

Aaron

Aaron,

I have to say, I'm disappointed in your views stated here.

I agree that taking "Greenies", or doing a line of coke, or taking an anphetamine is cheating......but it dosn't morphisize one's body into a super-human cartoon character able to leap small buildings in a single bound. Steroids do.

There has been NO ONE DESTRUCTIVE ASPECT ever before in the game like the abuse of steroids in the last two+ decades. It has been proven OVER and OVER with the numbers that they do, SUBSTANTIALLY effect (skew) a players numbers to the upside.....DRAMATICALLY. I could go on and on and on with examples, but that's beating a dead horse. Bonds, Sosa, McGwire, Palmeiro, Manny, Ortiz, A-Rod, Giambi......I mean c'MON. Thes guys HULKED UP into monsters and broke LIFE LONG RECORDS of the game OVER and OVER again. And you want to talk about being upset over our lack of understanding about a little energy booster like a greenie?

I agree with you that the game has not and was not completely PURE.......but you are comparing apples to 1,225 lb. pumpkins grown in Half Moon Bay, California, with genetically formulated growth additives to produce effects that rendure you in utter amazement.

Get some perspective, please!

Regards,

Steve

both-teams-played-hard
07-31-2009, 10:43 AM
LEAVE RICKEY ALONE!

This thread is exactly why all of the high rollers and big-wigs in the industry refuse to participate in this forum.

washwoman says what.

suicide_squeeze
07-31-2009, 11:25 AM
LEAVE RICKEY ALONE!

This thread is exactly why all of the high rollers and big-wigs in the industry refuse to participate in this forum.

washwoman says what.


BTPH.....

What exactly are you referring to? The big wigs......being whom, exactly? And why would someone expressing their opinions on a player keep anyone from participating here?

And the 'washwoman says what' comment???.......that one whizzed right by me, care to explain that?

both-teams-played-hard
07-31-2009, 11:46 AM
BTPH.....

What exactly are you referring to? The big wigs......being whom, exactly? And why would someone expressing their opinions on a player keep anyone from participating here?

And the 'washwoman says what' comment???.......that one whizzed right by me, care to explain that?

Yes, I'll explain.

The big-wigs and high rollers mention was a reference to a member (who no longer posts) and his feelings that many folks don't add to this forum for various different reasons.

On the original forum (often referred to as GUF Classic) some shills from an auction house said: "this forum is like a bunch of gossiping wash women" or "old ladies at a sewing circle".
the "says what" reference is based on the "sphincter says what?" line from "Wayne's World".

The "Leave Rickey Alone" line is a take on the "Leave Britney Alone" youtube sensation.

The "off-topic threads suck" line has not been written yet. But here goes:

"OFF TOPIC THREADS SUCK"

rj_lucas
07-31-2009, 12:06 PM
Aaron,

I have to say, I'm disappointed in your views stated here.

I agree that taking "Greenies", or doing a line of coke, or taking an anphetamine is cheating......but it dosn't morphisize one's body into a super-human cartoon character able to leap small buildings in a single bound. Steroids do.

There has been NO ONE DESTRUCTIVE ASPECT ever before in the game like the abuse of steroids in the last two+ decades. It has been proven OVER and OVER with the numbers that they do, SUBSTANTIALLY effect (skew) a players numbers to the upside.....DRAMATICALLY. I could go on and on and on with examples, but that's beating a dead horse. Bonds, Sosa, McGwire, Palmeiro, Manny, Ortiz, A-Rod, Giambi......I mean c'MON. Thes guys HULKED UP into monsters and broke LIFE LONG RECORDS of the game OVER and OVER again. And you want to talk about being upset over our lack of understanding about a little energy booster like a greenie?

I agree with you that the game has not and was not completely PURE.......but you are comparing apples to 1,225 lb. pumpkins grown in Half Moon Bay, California, with genetically formulated growth additives to produce effects that rendure you in utter amazement.

Get some perspective, please!

Regards,

Steve

Steve, I enjoy your posts. They're well thought out and expressed in an entertaining way.

I don't fully agree with this post though. The game has always had it's share of hulking power hitters e.g. Fox, Ott, Killebrew, etc. etc.

Yes, there are more big men in the game today, thanks largely to better nutrition and advancements in the science of weight training, which 40 years ago consisted of little more than grabbing a dumbell and doing some bicep curls.

I have never seen or heard of any clinical research that connects PEDs use to an improvement in eye/hand coordination. Do they contribute to muscle mass? Yes. So perhaps the home run travels 440 feet instead of 420 feet -- either way it's in the stands.

Someday, probably many years from now, a serious baseball scholar will take a look at every home run Mark McGwire hit in his career and adjust the distances due to (theoretical) PEDs use.

I don't think Mark is going to lose many home runs.

Rick
rickjlucas@gmail.com

rj_lucas
07-31-2009, 12:11 PM
Steve, I enjoy your posts. They're well thought out and expressed in an entertaining way.

I don't fully agree with this post though. The game has always had it's share of hulking power hitters e.g. Fox, Ott, Killebrew, etc. etc.

Yes, there are more big men in the game today, thanks largely to better nutrition and advancements in the science of weight training, which 40 years ago consisted of little more than grabbing a dumbell and doing some bicep curls.

I have never seen or heard of any clinical research that connects PEDs use to an improvement in eye/hand coordination. Do they contribute to muscle mass? Yes. So perhaps the home run travels 440 feet instead of 420 feet -- either way it's in the stands.

Someday, probably many years from now, a serious baseball scholar will take a look at every home run Mark McGwire hit in his career and adjust the distances due to (theoretical) PEDs use.

I don't think Mark is going to lose many home runs.

Rick
rickjlucas@gmail.com

Sorry, Jimmy Foxx is of course spelled with two XXs -- hence the nickname Double X.

Didn't want anybody to think I was talking about Nellie Fox, who was not 'quite' the power hitter that Jimmy Foxx was :)

Rick
rickjlucas@gmail.com

suicide_squeeze
07-31-2009, 01:01 PM
Yes, I'll explain.

The big-wigs and high rollers mention was a reference to a member (who no longer posts) and his feelings that many folks don't add to this forum for various different reasons.

On the original forum (often referred to as GUF Classic) some shills from an auction house said: "this forum is like a bunch of gossiping wash women" or "old ladies at a sewing circle".
the "says what" reference is based on the "sphincter says what?" line from "Wayne's World".

The "Leave Rickey Alone" line is a take on the "Leave Britney Alone" youtube sensation.

The "off-topic threads suck" line has not been written yet. But here goes:

"OFF TOPIC THREADS SUCK"

Thanks.....I never would have put the pieces together....

Regards,

Steve

suicide_squeeze
07-31-2009, 01:24 PM
Steve, I enjoy your posts. They're well thought out and expressed in an entertaining way.

I don't fully agree with this post though. The game has always had it's share of hulking power hitters e.g. Fox, Ott, Killebrew, etc. etc.

Yes, there are more big men in the game today, thanks largely to better nutrition and advancements in the science of weight training, which 40 years ago consisted of little more than grabbing a dumbell and doing some bicep curls.

I have never seen or heard of any clinical research that connects PEDs use to an improvement in eye/hand coordination. Do they contribute to muscle mass? Yes. So perhaps the home run travels 440 feet instead of 420 feet -- either way it's in the stands.

Someday, probably many years from now, a serious baseball scholar will take a look at every home run Mark McGwire hit in his career and adjust the distances due to (theoretical) PEDs use.

I don't think Mark is going to lose many home runs.

Rick
rickjlucas@gmail.com

Rick,

First off, thanks for the kind words.


I understand where you're coming from, but all I am trying to say to guys like Aaron, who I really like, which is why I took the time to tell him I was disappointed in his view.........is just please try to use a bit of common sense when processing this whole PED issue.

We know they use for a reason......because there's benefits to be had.

I think everyone, as a group in their postings, has done a fabulous job on hitting on exactly what those benefits are, so I won't go there (strength, short regeneration time, being fresh late in the season, etc.).

But here's the issue with your point/argument:

The guys who are using in this game already have proven they have the eye-hand coordination to play the game at the pro level......after all, they have made it. They are here.

Hopefully I won't lose a few friends here by singling out a very popular player, but as others have referred to players in their hometowns as example because they are familiar with them, I will follow suit.

Mike Piazza is a great example. Here is a guy who went from being a position player (3rd base), who was knee-jerkingly transformed into a catcher ("Hey Mike, if you want to get into the Dodger organization, they need catchers, so try on the gear") on the suggestion of Tommy Lasorda to Mike father, his friend, then drafted in the 62nd round to the Dodgers as a friend.

Okay, here's where it gets sticky, and I'm throwing out my disclaimer.....before I am asked, I have no proof other than what I have seen, and read, in various honorable publications.....so take this for what it is worth. The following is my OPINION.

Mike's steroid use was legendary in building himself into a Hall of Famer. Yes, he could hit, but he was not a body built like a Lance Parrish. He developed into a greek God after getting into the organization. Why? How? Maybe connections? Maybe he saw it going on, and realized he'd need to do the same if he were going to make it.....I'm not sure.

But he did.

And he became a Hall of Famer because of it.

Why?

Because instead of being a .270 hitter with around 120-150 home runs, maybe being a back-up catcher or a starter for a small market team, he was a .300 hitter and hit MORE home runs than any catcher in the history of the game, destroying baseballs trying to whiz by him.

Why?

Steroids.

They made him faster, incredibly stronger, and added many points to his batting average, and many feet to his tape-measure shots. Void of the roids, he doesn't even make the big leagues for a cup of coffee. Period.

As it was, his defensive abilities were sub-par. He could handle a pitcher fairly well, as Mike is a smart guy. And, after all, he was tutored by none other than Ted Williams himself as a young lad (having a wealthy father allows you privilages like that), so again, the point being he could hit.

But the PED's take you to a whole different level. If you check out the development of Mike's body from draft time to making the Dogers roster in the bigs, it was nothing short of miraculous.

It will be interesting to see how he will be treated in the Hall voting when his time comes.....and, if his name was one of the 104. My guess is that it will NOT be on that list, as Mike was smart enough to see what was going on in the league, and public's eye. He also lost some of his "punch" during his Mets years, a clear indication to me that he got off the juice.

We'll see.

3arod13
07-31-2009, 03:01 PM
Rick,

First off, thanks for the kind words.


I understand where you're coming from, but all I am trying to say to guys like Aaron, who I really like, which is why I took the time to tell him I was disappointed in his view.........is just please try to use a bit of common sense when processing this whole PED issue.

We know they use for a reason......because there's benefits to be had.

I think everyone, as a group in their postings, has done a fabulous job on hitting on exactly what those benefits are, so I won't go there (strength, short regeneration time, being fresh late in the season, etc.).

But here's the issue with your point/argument:

The guys who are using in this game already have proven they have the eye-hand coordination to play the game at the pro level......after all, they have made it. They are here.

Hopefully I won't lose a few friends here by singling out a very popular player, but as others have referred to players in their hometowns as example because they are familiar with them, I will follow suit.

Mike Piazza is a great example. Here is a guy who went from being a position player (3rd base), who was knee-jerkingly transformed into a catcher ("Hey Mike, if you want to get into the Dodger organization, they need catchers, so try on the gear") on the suggestion of Tommy Lasorda to Mike father, his friend, then drafted in the 62nd round to the Dodgers as a friend.

Okay, here's where it gets sticky, and I'm throwing out my disclaimer.....before I am asked, I have no proof other than what I have seen, and read, in various honorable publications.....so take this for what it is worth. The following is my OPINION.

Mike's steroid use was legendary in building himself into a Hall of Famer. Yes, he could hit, but he was not a body built like a Lance Parrish. He developed into a greek God after getting into the organization. Why? How? Maybe connections? Maybe he saw it going on, and realized he'd need to do the same if he were going to make it.....I'm not sure.

But he did.

And he became a Hall of Famer because of it.

Why?

Because instead of being a .270 hitter with around 120-150 home runs, maybe being a back-up catcher or a starter for a small market team, he was a .300 hitter and hit MORE home runs than any catcher in the history of the game, destroying baseballs trying to whiz by him.

Why?

Steroids.

They made him faster, incredibly stronger, and added many points to his batting average, and many feet to his tape-measure shots. Void of the roids, he doesn't even make the big leagues for a cup of coffee. Period.

As it was, his defensive abilities were sub-par. He could handle a pitcher fairly well, as Mike is a smart guy. And, after all, he was tutored by none other than Ted Williams himself as a young lad (having a wealthy father allows you privilages like that), so again, the point being he could hit.

But the PED's take you to a whole different level. If you check out the development of Mike's body from draft time to making the Dogers roster in the bigs, it was nothing short of miraculous.

It will be interesting to see how he will be treated in the Hall voting when his time comes.....and, if his name was one of the 104. My guess is that it will NOT be on that list, as Mike was smart enough to see what was going on in the league, and public's eye. He also lost some of his "punch" during his Mets years, a clear indication to me that he got off the juice.

We'll see.

Well put together! Nice job!

Regards, Tony

whatupyos
07-31-2009, 03:44 PM
Aaron,

I have to say, I'm disappointed in your views stated here.

I agree that taking "Greenies", or doing a line of coke, or taking an anphetamine is cheating......but it dosn't morphisize one's body into a super-human cartoon character able to leap small buildings in a single bound. Steroids do.

There has been NO ONE DESTRUCTIVE ASPECT ever before in the game like the abuse of steroids in the last two+ decades. It has been proven OVER and OVER with the numbers that they do, SUBSTANTIALLY effect (skew) a players numbers to the upside.....DRAMATICALLY. I could go on and on and on with examples, but that's beating a dead horse. Bonds, Sosa, McGwire, Palmeiro, Manny, Ortiz, A-Rod, Giambi......I mean c'MON. Thes guys HULKED UP into monsters and broke LIFE LONG RECORDS of the game OVER and OVER again. And you want to talk about being upset over our lack of understanding about a little energy booster like a greenie?

I agree with you that the game has not and was not completely PURE.......but you are comparing apples to 1,225 lb. pumpkins grown in Half Moon Bay, California, with genetically formulated growth additives to produce effects that rendure you in utter amazement.

Get some perspective, please!

Regards,

Steve


Steve,

Sorry to disappoint you my friend. I'm just sick of people acting like they're horrible people for doing stuff. I was trying to make a point. My favorite player of all time, always has been and always will be Mark McGwire. I've stuck by him and defended him his whole career. People have their opinions as to whether he used or not, and that's fine. I just again was trying to make a point that, although some people will call the people caught doing steriods "cheaters" there are people who do greenies who could be classified as "cheaters" as well. Doesn't mean they're any less or better of a person. People make mistakes. Steroids is an unfortunate part of the game. It stinks, but I believe the game will survive. I wish it wasn't an issue and people never took steroids myself. I've worked my butt off in the gym trying to attain a certain look and I see guys in there twice my size and I have my opinions whether they juice or not. I dont think anyone should use steriods. Its not fair, but I'm also not going to say they're scum of the earth either. Not that you are saying that, just others who repeatedly say their cheaters. There is no way to tell if Mantle and Ruth didn't juice. No one can say with 100% certainty that they know when and where steriods started. Just because you juice doesn't mean you're going to hulk up either. Its a tell tale sign, but there are many forms of roids that do different things, like improve eyesight, endurance, ect. not just muscle mass.

Respectfully,
Aaron

sylbry
07-31-2009, 04:12 PM
"I have no knowledge of Rickey using steroids in any manner, shape or form," Canseco said in an interview (http://www.950espn.com/Audio/tabid/183/articleType/ArticleView/articleId/4271/Jose-Canseco.aspx) with 950 ESPN radio in Philadelphia.

Here is the interview.

http://www.950espn.com/Audio/tabid/183/articleType/ArticleView/articleId/4271/Jose-Canseco.aspx

cjclong
07-31-2009, 04:33 PM
As has been pointed out one of the benefits of steroids is said to be recovery. So a player taking them wouldn't wear out as much as the season went on. I've heard this is a greater benefit for many users than size or strength. In many respects amphetamines did the same thing for players. Jim Bouton in his book "Ball Four" talked about the use of "greenies" (green amphetamine pills) in the clubhouses. This was in the 1960's. Bouton didn't identify who took them, but from his book it was common. If it was shown that current members of the HOF were amphetamine users how many people say they should be kicked out of the HOF? It may not be quite the same thing as steroid use , but its close. If we let amphetamine users in why not steroid users. What about steroid users who only used a few years and would have have had HOf careers even if we remove their steroid seasons. Shoud we ban them on general principles?

suicide_squeeze
07-31-2009, 11:40 PM
As has been pointed out one of the benefits of steroids is said to be recovery. So a player taking them wouldn't wear out as much as the season went on. I've heard this is a greater benefit for many users than size or strength. In many respects amphetamines did the same thing for players. Jim Bouton in his book "Ball Four" talked about the use of "greenies" (green amphetamine pills) in the clubhouses. This was in the 1960's. Bouton didn't identify who took them, but from his book it was common. If it was shown that current members of the HOF were amphetamine users how many people say they should be kicked out of the HOF? It may not be quite the same thing as steroid use , but its close. If we let amphetamine users in why not steroid users. What about steroid users who only used a few years and would have have had HOf careers even if we remove their steroid seasons. Shoud we ban them on general principles?

That, cjclong, is the worst part of all of this.

How thoroughly f'ed up are the record books, and any chance of ever being able to decipher this whole mess? Your point, deeply rooted in this stir-pot, in one of the impossible tasks. That's why I am so angry over this "era"......we'll never know. You can theorize until the cows come home.....but the truth is, there is NO WAY to figure out what could have or should have been.

That's why, when it's all said and done, I think the best of the best do eventually get to the Hall, and the ones who were known to be associated get "tagged" with an asterisk.

What else can we do? Deal with it in a rational sense, and just move on with built-in rules, measures, and testing to keep it from happening again.

JasonM33
07-31-2009, 11:40 PM
Jason,

I just have to know my friend.......WHAT possible facit of his career makes you a Jose Canseco fan?

The 90's "twitching" from overdosing on PED's? The Madonna history? The lack of care about the dead and suffering during the "Quake Series in '89" when all Jose cared about was getting back to playing? His nickname "The chemist"? His promotional infiltration to many players of drugs that helped ruin the record books of the game? His complete and thorough backlash on the game after he got everything deserved by self-imposed bad will to the game?

I'm sorry, but I can't think of a more worthless individual in the history of baseball to have ever surfaced.......than Jose Canseco.

Please........enlighten me?


If this question had been sincere I would have answered it. Instead I read it as a smug, sarcastic, and condecending attempt to attack me for being a fan of Jose Canseco. I simply voiced my opinion on the topic that is being discussed. I don't feel the need to explain to you why I am a fan of Canseco. I wish you would stay on topic instead of personally calling me out. Furthermore you should be ashamed of yourself for calling a human being a worthless individual. Who are you to determine the worth of anyone? You don't know jack about Jose Canseco. Grow up and get over yourself.

P.S. It would take more patience than I have to "enlighten" you.

suicide_squeeze
07-31-2009, 11:49 PM
"I have no knowledge of Rickey using steroids in any manner, shape or form," Canseco said in an interview (http://www.950espn.com/Audio/tabid/183/articleType/ArticleView/articleId/4271/Jose-Canseco.aspx) with 950 ESPN radio in Philadelphia.

Here is the interview.

http://www.950espn.com/Audio/tabid/183/articleType/ArticleView/articleId/4271/Jose-Canseco.aspx


Good point...

This, added to the fine rendition of pictures on a similar thread kingjammy posted, showing players faces (alledged users vs. non users) has me doing a double take and back-peddling on Henderson. Henderson's face/head looks pretty much consistent with his early years, unlike McGwire, Bonds, Sosa, etc.

I'm now wondering if Canseco was in fact referring to Reggie Jackson? Maybe we'll all eventually find out?

suicide_squeeze
08-01-2009, 12:09 AM
Steve,

Sorry to disappoint you my friend. I'm just sick of people acting like they're horrible people for doing stuff. I was trying to make a point. My favorite player of all time, always has been and always will be Mark McGwire. I've stuck by him and defended him his whole career. People have their opinions as to whether he used or not, and that's fine. I just again was trying to make a point that, although some people will call the people caught doing steriods "cheaters" there are people who do greenies who could be classified as "cheaters" as well. Doesn't mean they're any less or better of a person. People make mistakes. Steroids is an unfortunate part of the game. It stinks, but I believe the game will survive. I wish it wasn't an issue and people never took steroids myself. I've worked my butt off in the gym trying to attain a certain look and I see guys in there twice my size and I have my opinions whether they juice or not. I dont think anyone should use steriods. Its not fair, but I'm also not going to say they're scum of the earth either. Not that you are saying that, just others who repeatedly say their cheaters. There is no way to tell if Mantle and Ruth didn't juice. No one can say with 100% certainty that they know when and where steriods started. Just because you juice doesn't mean you're going to hulk up either. Its a tell tale sign, but there are many forms of roids that do different things, like improve eyesight, endurance, ect. not just muscle mass.

Respectfully,
Aaron

Aaron,

Fair enough, and good explanation.

The part of the whole thing that bothers me the most is the records part.

I am a baseball historian by nature: I love and respect the game, and have always loved the numbers part of it. This game is unique. The records have been developed by great players over MANY decades, and the game has (supposedly) always been played on somewhat of a level playing field. Yes, there have been small differences over the years that have benefited certain players more than others (Ott and the "short porch" at the Polo Grounds....257' at the foul pole).....and cheating that could be contrued as "part of the game".....corked bats.......greenies......spit-balls......you name it......but these guys who took steroids to bulk up......they cheated the numbers in a way that assaulted the history of the game. I have a real problem with that.

I have a problem with Manny passing Jimmie Foxx.

I have a problem with Barry Bonds passing Hank Aaron.

I have a problem with McGwire, Sosa, and Bonds making a mockery out of Roger Maris' unbelievable feat in 1961.

And if we find that Frank Thomas is on that 2003 list of 104 (and I don't believe he is, for the record!).....I would have a real problem with him tying the late GREAT Ted Williams, and Willie McCovey with 521 career knocks.

That......Aaron......is true cheating. And that was my point. It pains me to see a wonderful man like Harmon Killebrew passed by Sosa and Bonds.

I have to say, and if I searched back for it I could pull it up for you, I am with you on McGwire. He was just likable, and was good for the game. I mentioned in an earlier thread months ago that if he would just come clean, just come out and tell us all what he did, and ask for forgiveness as it was part of the game, he would be forgiven with open arms by the fans of baseball. He didn't play for the numbers, he played because he loved the game. And when the time was right, and he felt he and his body had had enough, he walked away, no questions asked. He had a BIG dollar offer from the Cards to play a couple more more years.....his reply was "I've done all I can do, and I'm not the kind to hang on." He walked away from millions to make room for Albert, who he saw was the guy to hand the torch to. He was a fine example of a gentleman, and a great baseball guy....if it just wasn't for the dang PED's!!!:(

suicide_squeeze
08-01-2009, 12:19 AM
If this question had been sincere I would have answered it. Instead I read it as a smug, sarcastic, and condecending attempt to attack me for being a fan of Jose Canseco. I simply voiced my opinion on the topic that is being discussed. I don't feel the need to explain to you why I am a fan of Canseco. I wish you would stay on topic instead of personally calling me out. Furthermore you should be ashamed of yourself for calling a human being a worthless individual. Who are you to determine the worth of anyone? You don't know jack about Jose Canseco. Grow up and get over yourself.

P.S. It would take more patience than I have to "enlighten" you.

Jason,

Apparently, you are from a different school.

I was in no way trying to be smug, sarcastic, or anything derrogatory towards you. I stated facts about Canseco that is common knowledge. I am sorry, truly, if I stepped on your boy. I hope you will accept this for truth, and my apologies for upsetting you.....I don't even know you, so why would I want to do that?

I do think Canseco is a cretin, I'm not going to lie to you. You should not take that personally......that is simply my opinion. My God, if someone told me that the nicest guy I ever met in baseball, Harmon Killebrew, was the biggest jerk in the world, I'd say to myself "That's your opinion". I wouldn't lose any sleep over it, or think the person was a loser because of his opinion??

Again, I ask.....I am seriously interested in knowing why or how anyone who is a fan of baseball can find something to instill "fanhood" for such a creep? Feel free to ignore this if you want, but please don't misconstru my intentions.....they were genuine.

Carlevv
08-01-2009, 11:39 AM
Why do we just associate steroids with the hitters? The guys that the sluggers are going deep off of are also on steroids. Remember the skinny Ryan Franklin got caught on the juice? Its not about getting stronger all the time its about recovery. Mark McGuire was going deep from the time he was in little league to the time he retired steroids or not. I bet if you asked him how he felt on steroids he would say he felt great. Great meaning nothing hurt on his body. Not great as in he felt strong like bull. I'll throw a name out that nobody dares to bring up........ Nolan Ryan. I have no facts to base this on really but wasnt the guy in his 40's throwing 100 MPH? Rogers Clemens is in the same boat right? Were steroids invented while Nolan was playing? Well why not question every great player then? All the greats this generation are in question so why not back in those days? Just a question i have.

Lokee
08-01-2009, 11:49 AM
If you look back I allready mentioned Ryan. He pitched for 27 years and has a direct link to Canseco.

rj_lucas
08-01-2009, 12:16 PM
Were steroids invented while Nolan was playing? Well why not question every great player then? All the greats this generation are in question so why not back in those days? Just a question i have.

Exactly. As I pointed out in another thread, anabolic steroids have been around since the 1930's and in common medical use since the 1950's.

This issue did not magically spring into existence 10 years ago. Remember Lyle Alzado? And that was the 1970's for crying out loud.

In theory, Mantle, Aaron, Mays, pick your hero, ANY of them could have been on the juice. Before someone jumps down my throat, let me emphasize, that's IN THEORY. 1959 or 1999, it doesn't matter, we'll never know the complete truth.

It's time to stop clucking our tongues and move past this.

Rick
rickjlucas@gmail.com

whatupyos
08-01-2009, 04:21 PM
Aaron,

Fair enough, and good explanation.

The part of the whole thing that bothers me the most is the records part.

I am a baseball historian by nature: I love and respect the game, and have always loved the numbers part of it. This game is unique. The records have been developed by great players over MANY decades, and the game has (supposedly) always been played on somewhat of a level playing field. Yes, there have been small differences over the years that have benefited certain players more than others (Ott and the "short porch" at the Polo Grounds....257' at the foul pole).....and cheating that could be contrued as "part of the game".....corked bats.......greenies......spit-balls......you name it......but these guys who took steroids to bulk up......they cheated the numbers in a way that assaulted the history of the game. I have a real problem with that.

I have a problem with Manny passing Jimmie Foxx.

I have a problem with Barry Bonds passing Hank Aaron.

I have a problem with McGwire, Sosa, and Bonds making a mockery out of Roger Maris' unbelievable feat in 1961.

And if we find that Frank Thomas is on that 2003 list of 104 (and I don't believe he is, for the record!).....I would have a real problem with him tying the late GREAT Ted Williams, and Willie McCovey with 521 career knocks.

That......Aaron......is true cheating. And that was my point. It pains me to see a wonderful man like Harmon Killebrew passed by Sosa and Bonds.

I have to say, and if I searched back for it I could pull it up for you, I am with you on McGwire. He was just likable, and was good for the game. I mentioned in an earlier thread months ago that if he would just come clean, just come out and tell us all what he did, and ask for forgiveness as it was part of the game, he would be forgiven with open arms by the fans of baseball. He didn't play for the numbers, he played because he loved the game. And when the time was right, and he felt he and his body had had enough, he walked away, no questions asked. He had a BIG dollar offer from the Cards to play a couple more more years.....his reply was "I've done all I can do, and I'm not the kind to hang on." He walked away from millions to make room for Albert, who he saw was the guy to hand the torch to. He was a fine example of a gentleman, and a great baseball guy....if it just wasn't for the dang PED's!!!:(

Steve,

I totally understand where you are coming from and you have every right to feel that way. I don't like the fact that the numbers have been inflated either. Its an ugly part of the game, one that I hope will never happen again. And you're right, the numbers of those who played fair shouldn't have to feel dumped on because they didn't juice up. I remember going to games as a kid and it would be something special to see a home run. The older I got, once I was in high school in the mid- 90's, you'd see 3-5 homers a game. The home run to me, lost its meaning. I guess I was, and still am naive to certain things and when I saw all the old posts about the purity of the game, I was simply trying to make a point. I didn't do a great job, as I immediately typed up my initial post as a defensive mechanism. I always feel the need to stick up for McGwire. I just respect him so much. As a fan, and I know there are others with different stories, but he always treated me with respect. And like you stated, I always admired the way he played. He always said when it was his time to hang them up, he'd do so. No fairwell tour, like Gwynn and Ripken ( not picking on them, as they are both class acts as well), but that wans't McGwire's style. He wasn't a flashy guy who enjoyed being in the spotlight. He negotiated a 2 year 30 mil. contract by himself, no agent, and walked away from it. How many of us can say they'd do the same? That's pretty special right there.

But you're right, the more I chew on it, the numbers of guys like Maris are amazing, and Bonds with his 73 almost belittles what Maris accomplished.

Aaron

emann
08-01-2009, 05:51 PM
Exactly. As I pointed out in another thread, anabolic steroids have been around since the 1930's and in common medical use since the 1950's.

This issue did not magically spring into existence 10 years ago. Remember Lyle Alzado? And that was the 1970's for crying out loud.

The difference in baseball to me though, is that baseball players didn't want to look like huge bodybuilders (and often the opposite) until the Canseco era. Then you start seeing the Kirby Puckett, Wade Boggs & Ozzie smith body types replaced by hulking mass like McGwire, Sosa & Bonds.

I think that probably some players experimented with steroids in years past (probably more to bounce back from injuries quicker than to add muscle), but I doubt it was very widespread like the late 90's & early 2000's...

Of course the claim is there that Mantle used amphetamines and possibly testosterone.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=4192628

rj_lucas
08-01-2009, 06:14 PM
I think that probably some players experimented with steroids in years past (probably more to bounce back from injuries quicker than to add muscle), but I doubt it was very widespread like the late 90's & early 2000's...



In other words, OK to juice a little, just not TOO much?

Assuming it was less widespread 40 years ago, doesn't that mean the guys that did it then had even more of an unfair advantage than the guys that did it ten years ago when everybody did it?

I keep using the term 'slippery slope' because that's what this issue is. And the more we try to parse it, the slicker it gets.

Terrific article, thanks for the link. Every purist on the PEDs issue should read it.

The 'good old days' were never that good. Meanwhile, the great game of baseball marches on.

Rick
rickjlucas@gmail.com

frikativ54
08-01-2009, 06:37 PM
The 'good old days' were never that good.

You hit the nail on the head with this assertion.

JasonM33
08-01-2009, 07:28 PM
Jason,

Apparently, you are from a different school.

I was in no way trying to be smug, sarcastic, or anything derrogatory towards you. I stated facts about Canseco that is common knowledge. I am sorry, truly, if I stepped on your boy. I hope you will accept this for truth, and my apologies for upsetting you.....I don't even know you, so why would I want to do that?

I do think Canseco is a cretin, I'm not going to lie to you. You should not take that personally......that is simply my opinion. My God, if someone told me that the nicest guy I ever met in baseball, Harmon Killebrew, was the biggest jerk in the world, I'd say to myself "That's your opinion". I wouldn't lose any sleep over it, or think the person was a loser because of his opinion??

Again, I ask.....I am seriously interested in knowing why or how anyone who is a fan of baseball can find something to instill "fanhood" for such a creep? Feel free to ignore this if you want, but please don't misconstru my intentions.....they were genuine.

It insults my intelligence when you imply that my problem was based solely on the fact that you have a negative opinion of Jose Canseco. I don't care what you think of him good or bad. I never asked you what you thought of him. All I did was mention, in a post that was not directed at you, that I was a Canseco fan. You took that as an opportunity to call me out, by name, in a very sarcastic and antagonistic fashion. If you don’t think there was a sarcastic tone to how you came across then you need to get a dictionary and look up the definition of the word. Let me help you.

sarcasm - witty language used to convey insults or scorn.
wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn (http://www.google.com/url?&q=http://wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn%3Fs%3Dsarcasm&ei=Jtd0SpiNHpDSsgPakqTvDA&sa=X&oi=define&ct=&cd=1&usg=AFQjCNE96YzRuLnfOyR21Du30VHcX6MqCg)

sarcasm - A form of humor that is marked by mocking with irony, sometimes conveyed in speech with vocal over-emphasis. Saying something that is opposite of what is intended to be meant; An act of sarcasm
en.wiktionary.org/wiki/sarcasm (http://www.google.com/url?&q=http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/sarcasm&ei=Jtd0SpiNHpDSsgPakqTvDA&sa=X&oi=define&ct=&cd=1&usg=AFQjCNG0BwHG04fNXIyn7B7EFUdmMiCrAA)


Also, I want to be clear about a few things…….

I wasn't upset because you "stepped on my boy".

I didn’t “take it personally” that you think Canseco is a cretin

I haven't “lost any sleep over it”.

I never “thought you were a loser” because of your opinion.

I don’t need your permission to ignore your post so don’t tell me to “feel free” to do so.

If you were “seriously interested” in why I am a fan you would have posed the question in a much more respectful way. Words have meaning. Your original question was a ruse. Your apology was an insult and I do not accept it. I’ll thank you not to post anything else to or about me in this forum again. Good day.

suicide_squeeze
08-01-2009, 10:35 PM
It insults my intelligence when you imply that my problem was based solely on the fact that you have a negative opinion of Jose Canseco. I don't care what you think of him good or bad. I never asked you what you thought of him. All I did was mention, in a post that was not directed at you, that I was a Canseco fan. You took that as an opportunity to call me out, by name, in a very sarcastic and antagonistic fashion. If you don’t think there was a sarcastic tone to how you came across then you need to get a dictionary and look up the definition of the word. Let me help you.

sarcasm - witty language used to convey insults or scorn.
wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn (http://www.google.com/url?&q=http://wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn%3Fs%3Dsarcasm&ei=Jtd0SpiNHpDSsgPakqTvDA&sa=X&oi=define&ct=&cd=1&usg=AFQjCNE96YzRuLnfOyR21Du30VHcX6MqCg)

sarcasm - A form of humor that is marked by mocking with irony, sometimes conveyed in speech with vocal over-emphasis. Saying something that is opposite of what is intended to be meant; An act of sarcasm
en.wiktionary.org/wiki/sarcasm (http://www.google.com/url?&q=http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/sarcasm&ei=Jtd0SpiNHpDSsgPakqTvDA&sa=X&oi=define&ct=&cd=1&usg=AFQjCNG0BwHG04fNXIyn7B7EFUdmMiCrAA)


Also, I want to be clear about a few things…….

I wasn't upset because you "stepped on my boy".

I didn’t “take it personally” that you think Canseco is a cretin

I haven't “lost any sleep over it”.

I never “thought you were a loser” because of your opinion.

I don’t need your permission to ignore your post so don’t tell me to “feel free” to do so.

If you were “seriously interested” in why I am a fan you would have posed the question in a much more respectful way. Words have meaning. Your original question was a ruse. Your apology was an insult and I do not accept it. I’ll thank you not to post anything else to or about me in this forum again. Good day.



http://www.barbandgreg.com/images/Emoticons/shithitsfan.gif



Um............................I don't know what happened here.

Jason, you really need to relax. Not for me, for your heart.

There was absolutely no reason to assume, incorrectly I might add, that I was "calling you out".

All I freakin wanted to know is why you like Jose Canseco? That's all.

But apparently that's too much of a question for you to answer, so to hell with it. I really don't care why you like him anymore. To have to go through your rant, coming uncomfortably close to resembling a roid rage.......hmmmmmmmm, and completely come uncorked because I stepped on your idol is silly. No more from me, no worries.

By the way, Jose plays poker at the Hollywood Park often on weekends, and he can be found at the Sagebrush Cantina in Calabasas, CA, having a beer (or eight) while posing for pictures with.......fans like you!....and hitting on the local women......so let me know if I can introduce you sometime to the cretin....ER.....ex-ball player. My treat!

frikativ54
08-01-2009, 11:50 PM
By the way, Jose plays poker at the Hollywood Park often on weekends, and he can be found at the Sagebrush Cantina in Calabasas, CA, having a beer (or eight) while posing for pictures with.......fans like you!....and hitting on the local women......so let me know if I can introduce you sometime to the cretin....ER.....ex-ball player. My treat!

You know Canseco? Or frequent his hangout? Perhaps you could provide an insider's knowledge about the ballplayer, his motives, and his credibility. Please do share your thoughts about Canseco's comportment, as they have value in how I assess the veracity of Canseco's statements.

JasonM33
08-01-2009, 11:59 PM
http://www.barbandgreg.com/images/Emoticons/shithitsfan.gif



Um............................I don't know what happened here.

Jason, you really need to relax. Not for me, for your heart.

There was absolutely no reason to assume, incorrectly I might add, that I was "calling you out".

All I freakin wanted to know is why you like Jose Canseco? That's all.

But apparently that's too much of a question for you to answer, so to hell with it. I really don't care why you like him anymore. To have to go through your rant, coming uncomfortably close to resembling a roid rage.......hmmmmmmmm, and completely come uncorked because I stepped on your idol is silly. No more from me, no worries.

By the way, Jose plays poker at the Hollywood Park often on weekends, and he can be found at the Sagebrush Cantina in Calabasas, CA, having a beer (or eight) while posing for pictures with.......fans like you!....and hitting on the local women......so let me know if I can introduce you sometime to the cretin....ER.....ex-ball player. My treat!


I’m not buying your feigned confusion about what happened. I couldn’t have been any clearer about why you annoyed me. I didn’t appreciate how you came across in your "question" to me. I found it sarcastic and disrespectful. If your apology had been sincere, my explanation would have been good enough. But it wasn’t, you had to continue to condescend. Bye the way, you seem to have a pattern of sarcasm in your writing. Example…

“But apparently that's too much of a question for you to answer” = sarcasm

Don’t tell me to “relax” and don’t worry about my heart.

I’m not assuming anything. I will define what I consider being called out, not you.

I’m not “ranting”. I’m not in a “roid rage”. I haven’t come “uncorked”. Have I cursed you or typed in all caps? No, I have not. I am not upset because you “stepped on my idol”. I don’t need you to tell me where Jose hangs out, and I don’t need you to introduce me to him. If you really want to treat me then you will simply stop typing things to me and move along. You don’t know anything about me and I’m not interested in knowing you or having a debate with you. Let me repeat……… I would prefer that you don’t post anything else to me or about me on this forum. Thank you.

suicide_squeeze
08-02-2009, 10:15 AM
I’m not buying your feigned confusion about what happened. I couldn’t have been any clearer about why you annoyed me. I didn’t appreciate how you came across in your "question" to me. I found it sarcastic and disrespectful. If your apology had been sincere, my explanation would have been good enough. But it wasn’t, you had to continue to condescend. Bye the way, you seem to have a pattern of sarcasm in your writing. Example…

“But apparently that's too much of a question for you to answer” = sarcasm

Don’t tell me to “relax” and don’t worry about my heart.

I’m not assuming anything. I will define what I consider being called out, not you.

I’m not “ranting”. I’m not in a “roid rage”. I haven’t come “uncorked”. Have I cursed you or typed in all caps? No, I have not. I am not upset because you “stepped on my idol”. I don’t need you to tell me where Jose hangs out, and I don’t need you to introduce me to him. If you really want to treat me then you will simply stop typing things to me and move along. You don’t know anything about me and I’m not interested in knowing you or having a debate with you. Let me repeat……… I would prefer that you don’t post anything else to me or about me on this forum. Thank you.


http://www.barbandgreg.com/images/Emoticons/crazy.gif .......um.......BYE Jason....http://www.barbandgreg.com/images/Emoticons/bolt.gif

suicide_squeeze
08-02-2009, 10:43 AM
You know Canseco? Or frequent his hangout? Perhaps you could provide an insider's knowledge about the ballplayer, his motives, and his credibility. Please do share your thoughts about Canseco's comportment, as they have value in how I assess the veracity of Canseco's statements.

Hi Les,

Can't say I claim to know him, no. I do see him around town on occasion. Last I read along with everybody else is he was fighting to keep his house in the Encino area out of foreclosure, but he lost that battle. It's been widespread knowledge that he has had serious financial problems in the last year or two.

The issues I have with Canseco are, as mentioned before, his general lack of character, morals, integrity, and doing things right as society sees it. This guy breaks the rules to gain personal wealth and prestige at the cost of anyone in his way. I guess some people feel that's OK. I think Jose is a piece of garbage. The wake of damage and destruction he helped institutionalize as "customary and accepted" in baseball has almost ruined the sport, many reputations, and a whole lot of careers. But the players who chose to go down that road have no ones but themselves to blame.

On a side note, I think the biggest casualty of this whole steroid era will end up being Barry Bonds. He truly was talented enough to have had a tremendous baseball career, a sure-fire Hall of Famer as a clean player......but he just couldn't take it that guys that were cheating were getting all of the thunder from the fans......so he fell into the pit and starting using in a big way. Yes, Barry, you proved that YOU were the greatest when placed on a level playing field.....the WWF mat. Hope you are happy, how'd it all work out for you, super-star? I guess we'll all see soon, as your perjury trial commences. Thank Jose Canseco for his contributions to your personal dimise.....

That said, I do appreciate that he (Jose) has come out and exposed the MLB drug (PED) problem. The sad part is he did it out of vengence. Essentially being black-balled from baseball because everyone involved in it wanted nothing to do with him anymore, just didn't sit well with the thug. He wanted to become a 500 home run member, but fell short.....so he developed the sour-grapes attitude of "OK, have it your way, baseball, I'm bringing everyone down with me".

I do believe he has a few friends in the game that he favors, and he will continue to cover up the facts of possible (probable) drug use in regards to these individuals, and I think he doesn't give a rats backside about exposing the rest. He needs money, and of course won't get e real job, hence the books. But.....I will say this......As much of a cretin, sour-grapes, scumbag self-absorbed thug as he is.......I do believe he is credible in the things he has said, publicly, and in his books. When you break it down, he has no reason to lie. All he is is a living breathing nightmare to all that played with him, and around him, because he's singing. I think he feels comfortable in the fact that all of this "controversy" has made him a celebrity.....God knows it helps him make money, as he gets invited to do radio shows, small spots now and then on TV, etc,. when the steroids issue raises it's ugly head from time to time.

It will be interesting to see what he comes up with next, because in regards to his baseball "tattling", I think he's given out the majority of what he knew.

Lokee
08-02-2009, 11:42 AM
"On a side note, I think the biggest casualty of this whole steroid era will end up being Barry Bonds."

I could not agree more.

3arod13
08-02-2009, 05:19 PM
Possibly Tony Gwynn? (there, back on topic)

frikativ54
08-02-2009, 05:20 PM
Possibly Tony Gwynn? (there, back on topic)

That is an interesting take, though when steroid hulk comes to mind, I just don't think of Gwynn.

JasonM33
08-02-2009, 05:21 PM
Possibly Tony Gwynn? (there, back on topic)

Actually, I have it on good authority that the Hall of Famer that Canseco was referring to was none other than Kenny Powers.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v78/IpreferKeaton/Sports/KennyPowers1.jpg

frikativ54
08-02-2009, 05:34 PM
Actually, I have it on good authority that the Hall of Famer that Canseco was referring to was none other than Kenny Powers.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v78/IpreferKeaton/Sports/KennyPowers1.jpg

Wow, unbelievable! :o :eek:

cjclong
07-14-2010, 08:09 AM
I get so tired of people "speculating" on who may have used drugs. If Canseco wants to point out somebody let him do it. All this is doing is throwing mud at people with out a lot to back it up. We might as well speculate whether the contributors to this thread create phony game used items since there are people in this hobby who do so you just might be one of them. This is exactly the logic that is being used in saying maybe this player did. The fact is there were players who used during the era and those that didn't. Probably the fact is that absesnt a test we won't have positve proof on those who did or didn't. I prefer to give the benefit of the doubt to players. Others suspicion everybody. But it does no good to point out people. Look at all the names here. Some of them may have used and I'm sure some didn't. But it is a total injustice to players who didn't use to throw their names out as users based on guesses and assumptions. This thread is getting on a year old and we still don't know who Canseco was talking about, if anybody really.

legaleagle92481
07-14-2010, 10:42 AM
I think the point is who cares? Why wouldn't a player use PDAs? So many of his peers were doing it and these are the people he was competing against for money, a job and endorsements. When guys like Bonds, Mac and Sosa are putting up inhuman numbers while on PDAs why would someone try to do it "clean"? All the training and hard work in the world is not going to lead to a 65 homer season. In other sports PDAs are common such as the Tour De France and the NFL and noone makes much of a big deal about that. Baseball players are not saints they are men just like any other prone to taking shortcuts to get ahead. If someone told you that if you did X (which as with PDA use was not illegal but gave you an unfair edge over your coworkers who did not also do X) you would get a raise at your job, would you do it? I think people would be shocked if they knew you really used many of the guys who are on the "he was clean list" likely were not. Canseco is probably also wrong in that rather than one roid user in the Hall there are probably several already with more to come in the near future.

Mark17
07-14-2010, 10:14 PM
I get so tired of people "speculating" on who may have used drugs. If Canseco wants to point out somebody let him do it. All this is doing is throwing mud at people with out a lot to back it up. We might as well speculate whether the contributors to this thread create phony game used items since there are people in this hobby who do so you just might be one of them. This is exactly the logic that is being used in saying maybe this player did. The fact is there were players who used during the era and those that didn't. Probably the fact is that absesnt a test we won't have positve proof on those who did or didn't. I prefer to give the benefit of the doubt to players. Others suspicion everybody. But it does no good to point out people. Look at all the names here. Some of them may have used and I'm sure some didn't. But it is a total injustice to players who didn't use to throw their names out as users based on guesses and assumptions. This thread is getting on a year old and we still don't know who Canseco was talking about, if anybody really.

Exactly, this entire thread borders on slander.