GFC: 1984 Michael Jordan's "first" jersey [Archive]

kingjammy24

08-22-2009, 01:42 PM

currently up for auction at grey flannel:

http://www.greyflannelauctions.com/LotDetail.aspx?lotid=21481

"It is hard to imagine, but one day, long ago, Babe Ruth was handed his first bat and put on his first flannel jersey. At that time, who could have imagined the history that was about to be written; the monumental legend and greatness....The same is true for Michael Jeffrey Jordan. There was a point when he gripped his first basketball and took his first jump shot from the top of the key, having no idea of the greatness and dominance that would follow; and so, too, would he be issued his very first NBA jersey as a member of the Chicago Bulls…and the rest, as they say, is history...This jersey offered is one-of-a-kind and special, indeed and could be compared to the first jersey ever issued to Babe Ruth; this red mesh road jersey could quite possibly have been the very first jersey issued to Michael Jordan as a member of the Chicago Bulls.."

from the description, this isn't simply a 1984 jordan gamer. this is jordan's very first NBA jersey. pretty spectacular. the GFC jersey has a very atypical number font. it's hard to find any photos of any of the 1984/85 bulls wearing that number font but GFC has managed to dig up a photo of jordan wearing a jersey with the atypical font so the font doesn't seem to be an issue. it does however make the jersey very unique and identifiable. below, on the left, are some images of the typical 1984/85 bulls number font. anyway, as i said earlier, this isn't simply being billed as a 1984 jordan gamer. a couple of those have already been auctioned off before. this is, in GFC's words, jordan's "very first jersey". as such, it would command a good premium over any other 1984 jordan gamer. i imagine the very first jersey that jordan ever put on would be considerably more desireable. jordan's first NBA game was actually at home vs washington so his "very first jersey" would've been a home jersey, not a road jersey. hence, the GFC road shirt cannot possibly be jordan's very first NBA shirt. could it be jordan's very first road shirt though? below are some images of jordan's first few road games, including his very first against milwaukee on sept 27, 1984. none of the photos show the atypical number fonts as seen on GFC's jersey. a 1984 jordan gamer? possibly. jordan's "very first jersey"? probably not.

http://img39.imageshack.us/img39/9839/jordan1i.jpg

http://img199.imageshack.us/img199/4739/jordan2t.jpg

http://img44.imageshack.us/img44/1251/jordan3u.jpg

rudy.

Sonny25

08-22-2009, 02:20 PM

His first regular season game was against the Bullets.
I have that DVD somewhere (2nd half only), I could always dig it up if somebody wanted me too.

Sonny25

08-22-2009, 02:23 PM

Whoops.

Meant to add his first game that his actual first game was a home game.
I got that entire Milwaukee game on DVD too though.

both-teams-played-hard

08-22-2009, 03:09 PM

Something from the item description that I do not understand:

"To add to this pristine provenance, we have detailed notes from our consignor who had many conversations with Tim Hallum of the Chicago Bulls who recalled “if that jersey has a number and name change, sounds like you have the very first jersey this organization issued Michael Jordan.” This treasure of basketball history is also accompanied by a photo of Michael wearing this very jersey early in his 1984-85 rookie year."

both-teams-played-hard

08-22-2009, 03:15 PM

Preseason? The game photo looks convincing.

http://img197.imageshack.us/img197/6702/snapshot20090822131113.png

kingjammy24

08-22-2009, 07:08 PM

Preseason? The game photo looks convincing.

warren, wouldn't it be interesting if the jersey had been used solely during preseason games and not at all during the regular season? if that's the case, then it may have been the first jersey issued to jordan but i'd think the value would take a substantial hit if it had never been worn during the regular season. at a minimum, i think it's evident that it's not the first road jersey jordan was issued for the regular season.

here's the other odd thing about the GFC jersey. the previous number on the jersey seems to have been #35. i can't make out the previous name but it seems to have started with a "W". in 1984/85, there was no #35 on the bulls nor was there a #35 on the 1983/84 bulls.

rudy.

kingjammy24

08-22-2009, 07:42 PM

the other thing that perplexes me about the current GFC jersey is the tagging. all of the other 1984 jordan jerseys i've seen had rawlings tags on the outside tail and no tagging in the collar. the GFC jersey has collar tagging and no tail tagging. can any nba collectors offer insight into this variation?

http://img341.imageshack.us/img341/9383/jordan3.jpg

as a buyer i'd want to know if the GFC jersey was used solely in the preseason and also when and where the GFC photo was taken.

rudy.

both-teams-played-hard

08-22-2009, 07:53 PM

I think if this can be proven to be Jordan's first pre-season jersey ever worn with the Bulls, it will be the most valuable basketball jersey in history. Can it be proven?
Pre-season or regular season doesn't matter, if it is Jordan's first Bulls jersey.

Could #35 be a pre-season player who never made the final roster? It would be nice to know that Jordan's first professional jersey is still in existence.

The abundance of phony Jordans on the market cause concern for the true legitimate relics. Whether or not this Grey Flannel Jordan is what it is claimed to be.

kingjammy24

08-22-2009, 08:07 PM

i suppose each collector is different. personally, i place far less value on preseason/training camp/spring training jerseys than regular season. of course in this case i understand that if it were preseason only it would still technically be the first jersey he was issued even if it never saw regular season action. i suppose any potential bidders could decide the value for themselves. i do think they ought to know though whether it ever saw regular season action. i think most would interpret the GFC ad to imply that it's jordan's first regular-season gamer. (of course, that would be impossible given that his first ever regular season game was at home). my point was that it's likely not even his first ever regular season road shirt.

anyway, this french guy has this shirt and he calls it a procut:

http://23raisons.free.fr/jersey.html

http://img24.imageshack.us/img24/8595/jordan1y.jpg

re: the name/number change
perhaps the bulls kept a separate stash for their preseason games and these shirts routinely had name/number changes?

rudy.

nickacs

08-22-2009, 10:30 PM

His first regular season game was against the Bullets.
I have that DVD somewhere (2nd half only), I could always dig it up if somebody wanted me too.

Yup, Oct 24, 1984.
If anyone is interested, all this Thursday/Friday NBA channel is replaying a bunch of NBA superstars' first NBA game, and of course including Michael Jordan:
7pmEST Thurs 8/26/09 (Replay Fri 1pmEST 8/27/09)

FYI, the other's include a bunch like: Hakeen, Ralph Sampson, Barkley, Karl Malone, Ewing, Reggie Miller, Shaq, Lebron, Garnett, etc etc

Maybe this might help to try and see/photomatch if this is really the first NBA regular season jersey Jordan wore?! :cool:

nickacs

08-22-2009, 11:11 PM

Grr, I hate that we can't edit out posts!!! :confused:

Anyways, my mistake, the Oct game is his first game, but it's a home one as you guys said. So, really this jersey would be his "first" road jersey, meaning 2nd regular season game. Unless preseason like some have eluded too.
Either way, I'm just very leary of it... More supporting doc(s) and photomatching to me would make it worth the current bid of $30k...But thats just me :)

kingjammy24

08-23-2009, 01:03 PM

warren and other nba collectors.. so this "first jersey" issue has got me thinking about what qualifies as a player's first jersey and which of his "firsts" would be most desireable.
warren, you believe that even if the GFC jersey was used solely during the preseason then it would still qualify as jordan's first bulls jersey. if you've eliminated the requirement of regular season action to qualify as part of the definition, then technically wouldn't jordan's first bulls jersey most likely be a practice/scrimmage jersey? (those reversible mesh ones). afterall, he probably played in a practice game before any preseason games and i'd think that practice games are just as meaningless as preseason games. would his first bulls practice jersey therefore be more valuable than his first preseason jersey?

in the area of 'first jerseys', i'd think it'd go practice, preseason, regular season and if both you and GFC have eliminated the requirement of a "first jersey" to necessarily including regular season play, then the real "first jersey he was issued by the bulls" would be his practice jersey.

for me, a player's first jersey would require regular season action; the jersey that the player wore in his first regular season game (which in this case would be the home jersey jordan wore on oct 26, 1984 vs washington). practices and preseasons don't count.

if you use your definition, then i'd think his first jersey would be a practice shirt. if you use my definition then it'd be his home shirt from oct 26, 1984. i don't see how the GFC shirt qualifies as any sort of a "first jersey" for jordan. maybe first preseason? anyway you slice it, i fail to see how it can be the "first jersey jordan was issued by the bulls".

rudy.

otismalibu

08-23-2009, 01:26 PM

anyway you slice it, i fail to see how it can be the "first jersey jordan was issued by the bulls".

If it was used in pre-season, it could be the first Bulls game jersey that Jordan was issued and wore in a game (exhibition).

It would still have some appeal to collectors, simply because it's Jordan. Sure, none of the stats from pre-season count, but no one has ever recorded a point, assist, rebound, etc. wearing warm-ups, yet folks collect them.

I'd take a Dr. J. Rucker league shirt.

Would the Bulls give their #1 pick a recycled jersey?

sportscentury

08-23-2009, 01:43 PM

If it is his first pre-season Bulls jersey, it is worth a ton, but not as much as his first regular season Bulls jersey (i.e., the jersey that he wore in his first official NBA game with the Bulls), the latter of which would be worth far more to most collectors. A pre-season jersey, even if used in exhibitions, is really a glorified practice jersey, as this is what the teams are doing in exhibition games - practicing for the real thing. With this said, if you win this and photomatch it with MeiGray, please email me at rgf2@hotmail.com, as I would love to own it (but only with a true photomatch). Interesting piece, and an absolute killer if real.

kingjammy24

08-23-2009, 02:27 PM

If it was used in pre-season, it could be the first Bulls game jersey that Jordan was issued and wore in a game (exhibition).

assuming he didn't play in a preseason game wearing the home white first. what a mess. it's not the first jersey, it's not the first regular season jersey, and it's not the first regular season road jersey. clearly the jersey needs to be qualified in terms of exactly what "first" it is. GFC makes no mention whatsoever of preseason vs regular season and in fact the preseason idea is simply one that warren offered as a possibility. i'm not even sure if it's known that jordan's first preseason game was played in a road shirt.

from GFC's description, i think most would believe the jersey is jordan's first regular season gamer. although GFC makes no mention of preseason vs regular season, typically, i think when an item is called "game used" the implicit understanding is that it was used in the regular season and that if the use was limited strictly to the preseason, then such a fact would be made known. steiner offers jerseys that they clearly label as "spring training" because they know there's a big difference between a derek jeter "ST" worn shirt and a jeter regular season gamer in both price and desireability.

i would've thought GFC would've done a little more research and disclosed a little more so that any bidders would know exactly what they're blowing $50k on. at this point, i wonder if the jersey was ever worn during the regular season at all or if it was strictly a pre-season shirt. i think a bidder ought to know if jordan never scored a single official point wearing the $50k jordan gamer he just bought.

rudy.

otismalibu

08-23-2009, 02:32 PM

A pre-season jersey, even if used in exhibitions, is really a glorified practice jersey, as this is what the teams are doing in exhibition games - practicing for the real thing.

I know what you're saying, but no one is going to confuse a practice jersey with a game jersey. Sure it's pre-season, but it's still a game. There's a crowd, refs, box score, etc.

I'd rather have the jersey he was wearing when he made his first basket in a pre-season game, than the jersey he was wearing when he made his first shot at Bulls practice.

both-teams-played-hard

08-23-2009, 02:34 PM

Rudy
There is no doubt that you have proven the Grey Flannel Jordan was not used in his first regular season game.
I will not debate the practice jersey vs. pre-season jersey argument. It's a matter of personal taste and finances. But, I don't have the finances.
ALL BOGUS JORDAN JERSEYS HAVE MESSED IT UP FOR THE REAL ONES! So, I believe that all Jordan jerseys are nothing more than "pro-cuts". With my thinking, I can't be selected to be on the jury for this trial.

Does anyone own this "pro-cut"?
http://img256.imageshack.us/img256/3731/jordanbulls84.jpg

sox83cubs84

08-23-2009, 03:08 PM

sportscentury

08-23-2009, 06:36 PM

I know what you're saying, but no one is going to confuse a practice jersey with a game jersey. Sure it's pre-season, but it's still a game. There's a crowd, refs, box score, etc.

I'd rather have the jersey he was wearing when he made his first basket in a pre-season game, than the jersey he was wearing when he made his first shot at Bulls practice.

Greg, no question about it. The first regular season jersey is worth way more than his first exhibition game jersey, but his first exhibition game jersey is worth way more than his first practice jersey. I think nearly all collectors would agree with this. I just think of exhibition jerseys as a special type of practice jersey in that they are worn when the players/teams are practicing for what counts.

kingjammy24

08-23-2009, 09:19 PM

a few thoughts

- the numbers are atypical. to me, it suggests they may not have been applied by rawlings. perhaps the bulls had exhibition jerseys modified locally because of a need for a faster turnaround than they'd normally have for regular season shirts and this local shop screwed up the numbers. i think the incorrect numbers somewhat bolster the idea of it being an exhibition shirt.

- it's clear that by jordan's first road game, the bulls already had a jersey with the correct number fonts for him.

- i'm curious if bidders will be bidding on this shirt as if it's jordan's first regular season gamer or as if it's an exhibition shirt. GFC previously auctioned off a 1984 jordan home gamer, with bulls loa, and it sold for a little over $55k. REA sold a 1984 jordan road gamer, including shorts, that rated a MEARS A10, for over $70k. oddly enough REA also auctioned off a 1984 jordan home gamer, also including shorts, also a MEARS A10 and it sold for almost $50k. not sure why there was a $20k difference between the road and home uniforms in the REA auctions. should be interesting to see how collectors interpret this GFC jersey. any guesses as to the value of it?

rudy.

sox83cubs84

08-23-2009, 09:28 PM

It's possible that the jersey, if indeed, a number changed, recycled piece, was from 1982-83. Two players wore 35 that year: Larry Kenon and Larry Spriggs.

Rudy: I have seen the collar tag in early 1980s Rawlings jerseys (Bulls and Rockets), but the ones I can remember usually had some type of tail tag also. Not saying the jersey being analyzed is wrong, but saying that it would be unusual.

Dave M.
Chicago area

Rudy:

I checked Getty and found a photo attributed to a December 1982 Bulls-Bucks game in Milwaukee. Reggie Theus is shown in the photo, and the numeric font on his 1982-83 jersey matches the font on this Jordan shirt. The Bulls numeric font changed in the 1983-84 season. It seems odd, though, that a number changed shirt from 1984 preseson wouldn't have the normal numeric font for that time frame, unless the number change was made back in 1982-83, and the name on back that is imprinted underneath Jordan's is someone other than the 2 #35 players mentioned in my first post above. Looks like some more digging needs to be done.

Dave Miedema
Chicago area

kingjammy24

08-23-2009, 10:16 PM

Rudy:

I checked Getty and found a photo attributed to a December 1982 Bulls-Bucks game in Milwaukee. Reggie Theus is shown in the photo, and the numeric font on his 1982-83 jersey matches the font on this Jordan shirt. The Bulls numeric font changed in the 1983-84 season. It seems odd, though, that a number changed shirt from 1984 preseson wouldn't have the normal numeric font for that time frame, unless the number change was made back in 1982-83, and the name on back that is imprinted underneath Jordan's is someone other than the 2 #35 players mentioned in my first post above. Looks like some more digging needs to be done.

Dave Miedema
Chicago area

if you look at photos on getty of the 1982/83 bulls, you'll see them apparently wearing 2 different fonts. i found a few players wearing each style so it wasn't simply an error on 1 jersey. here are the 2 styles:

http://img35.imageshack.us/img35/5056/jordan1z.jpg

anyway, i agree that it is odd that the font doesn't match the timeframe. not sure why a 1984 jersey would have a 1982 font. in 1982, #23 was mike bratz. bratz was 6'2" though, compared to jordan's 6'6". in 1981 and 1983 noone wore #23. very hard to tell if the previous name and number were changed at the same time. i've tried various techniques to try to discern the previous name but can't with any certainty. the previous number is definitely #35 though and the first letter is "W". i think it's likely to have belonged to a player who didn't make the squad.

you know what would be nice? for the "official authenticator to the NBA hall of fame" to fully disclose all pertinent information to this $50k jersey instead of spending most of the description reminding people that michael jordan was an icon. i'd like to see GFC:

1) disclose when/where the photo that they posted was taken
2) provide an explanation behind the incorrect number font
3) suss out whether this jersey was solely a preseason shirt or whether it ever saw regular season action
4) properly label the jersey as "jordan's first preseason game jersey" if that's really what it is and then provide some sort of argument about why jordan's first preseason shirt was a road shirt, as opposed to a home shirt.
rudy.

basically, for the approx. $20k they stand to profit on this jersey, i'd like to see some actual authentication done. maybe they could even produce a letter from charles jeffrey.

rudy.

lund6771

08-24-2009, 09:02 AM

If Jordan was wearing the correct font in his first few regular season games, what are the chances that he was wearing a make-shift jersey after that?...probably not to good

personally I would much rather have a regular season jersey than a pre-season, regardless if it was worn in his first or 8th pre-season game

I consider this piece more of a novelty item unless it's proven to be a regular season jersey...I wouldn't even pay half of what it's going for now

kingjammy24

08-24-2009, 10:41 AM

If Jordan was wearing the correct font in his first few regular season games, what are the chances that he was wearing a make-shift jersey after that?...probably not to good

exactly.

the bulls had a 'proper' jersey for him as of his very first road game (game #2 of his career). with that being the case, i can't see why he'd be issued a stripped jersey with an incorrect font afterwards. i could see it occurring during his later years when he became a superstar and was giving away jerseys and having them stolen and "lost" left, right and center and had to have some made up asap. (i'm remembering the time he had to enter a game wearing a #12 retail shirt, with no nob, after his jersey had been stolen right before a game). even though he was a highly-touted rookie in 1984, i don't think he went through 10 or 15 jerseys that season. in '84, i think guys like bernard king, magic, and larry bird were bigger stars. plus, it's not like there was a booming game-used market in '84. i think whatever jerseys jordan was issued near the start of the '84 season likely carried him through until the end of it and it's clear that jordan begun the season with properly-"fonted" jerseys.

i think the GFC shirt is neat and i think it's great that GFC found a photo of jordan wearing the incorrect font, but i think there's a big issue regarding whether jordan ever even wore it during the regular season. i too would rather have a regular season jersey than a preseason shirt, even if it was the "first preseason jersey issued to jordan". i'd want a jersey that played in an official game where jordan scored points that were counted towards his career totals. to me, jordan's first preseason shirt isn't all that different from his first practice jersey. i might even be more interested in his first practice shirt because at least that would truly be the very first bulls jersey ever issued to him and the one in which he took his very first shot as an NBA player.

rudy.

otismalibu

08-24-2009, 10:46 AM

Let me get this straight.

You're saying there is a superstar game worn item up for bid with a major auction house, but it's not exactly as advertised?

:eek:

kingjammy24

08-24-2009, 10:53 AM

suicide_squeeze

08-24-2009, 12:31 PM

fyi, this GFC jordan shirt was scheduled to have been auctioned off in 2007 by sothebys but for some reason it was pulled or didn't sell as it doesn't seem to have ended up in the final results:

http://men.style.com/news/style/060407

auction results:

http://www.sothebys.com/app/live/lot/LotResultsDetailList.jsp?action=J&event_id=28289&sale_number=N08385&lots_per_page=100&page_number=1&show_lot_name=Y

rudy.

Rudy,

You may be onto something here.

Could it be the same jersey, reappearing, that was pulled because there was a discovery as to it's authenticity back in 2007?

Very interesting. I suppose someone could contact Sotheby's and inquire why the jersey appears to have been pulled as it doesn't show up in the "results" posted. My guess, is that it was item #151 (as that one is skipped in the posted results and falls in with the basketball jerseys/items).

Interesting find Rudy....brings about a bunch of legit questions.

sox83cubs84

08-24-2009, 01:06 PM

kingjammy24

08-24-2009, 01:29 PM

Rudy:

The photo of the player in the red #22 Bulls uniform you showed in your post is from the 1981-82 season, not the 1982-83 campaign. Getty IDs the player as Ray Blume, who wore #22 for the Bulls only in 1981-82...In 1982-83, Rod Higgins wore #22, and can be seen in that style jersey on his 1983-84 Star Co. BSKB card.

The research continues...

Dave M.
Chicago area

dave

how's this:

http://img80.imageshack.us/img80/6782/jordan1j.jpg

the photo shows #53 for the bulls, mark olberding. he's the tall, bearded fellow. olberding only played one season for the bulls - 1982/83. in 1981/82 he played for for the spurs. check out the guy behind olberding wearing #2-something.

rudy.

both-teams-played-hard

08-24-2009, 02:04 PM

the photo shows #53 for the bulls, mark olberding. he's the tall, bearded fellow. olberding only played one season for the bulls - 1982/83.

Were Dave Corzine and Mark Olberding twin brothers?

otismalibu

08-24-2009, 02:27 PM

Were Dave Corzine and Mark Olberding twin brothers?

Yeah, that's Corzine. And it looks like Orlando Woolrigde to the right.

otismalibu

08-24-2009, 02:39 PM

I guess it's not?? Sure looks like him but not his number.

both-teams-played-hard

08-24-2009, 03:14 PM

I guess it's not?? Sure looks like him but not his number.
I think he is wearing another player's jersey. Olberding has dirty-blond STRAIGHT hair, Corzine has dark, afro-ish hair. It has to be Corzine. Look at some pics and compare.

*sorry to hijack this thread, but there are very few threads that interest me (still waiting for Vick to get busted with steroids, the bandwidth on this site might explode):)

Rudy has done some fine research on this Jordan. It would be nice if Grey Flannel would do the same.

otismalibu

08-24-2009, 03:35 PM

Rudy has done some fine research on this Jordan.

Agreed! And I always enjoy a hoops thread.

It would be nice if Grey Flannel would do the same.

There ain't no money in research.

kingjammy24

08-24-2009, 05:39 PM

I think he is wearing another player's jersey. Olberding has dirty-blond STRAIGHT hair, Corzine has dark, afro-ish hair. It has to be Corzine. Look at some pics and compare.

at first i thought you guys were out to lunch but looking at these two pics and it really does seem like corzine put on olberding's jersey..

http://img252.imageshack.us/img252/286/jordan.jpg

anyway, my point still stands that the photo is from 1982/83 because noone but olberding wore #53 that season and in 1981/82, artis gilmore wore #53 and i don't think there's any confusing gilmore with olberding/corzine.

rudy.

hblakewolf

08-24-2009, 06:00 PM

Rudy-

Clearly, Grey Flannel must have some insight to this or at least some additional information that allows them to make their claims that this is MJ's first jersey-have you or any other Forum reader contacted Ritchie Ruzek or T.J. with your findings and concerns?

Howard Wolf
hblakewolf@comcast.net

sox83cubs84

08-24-2009, 08:17 PM

dave

how's this:

http://img80.imageshack.us/img80/6782/jordan1j.jpg

the photo shows #53 for the bulls, mark olberding. he's the tall, bearded fellow. olberding only played one season for the bulls - 1982/83. in 1981/82 he played for for the spurs. check out the guy behind olberding wearing #2-something.

rudy.

Works for me...the Bulls must've been transitioning that season.

Dave M.
Chicago area

lund6771

08-24-2009, 08:24 PM

Rudy..

I was thinking more about this "first" thing....wouldn't the picture of Jordan holding up the Bulls jersey at a press conference be considered his "first" issued jersey?

also the GFC description seems pretty vague to me...I like concrete details about jerseys before I decide to bid on them....how many times Jordan won MVP doesn't make the jersey anymore real to me

if I was interested in this jersey I'd sure like to know what the circumstances were with the Sotheby auction....Sotheby's provided the same apparent "style match" photo at that time as well...so whats the deal?...I would contact David Kohler to see if he could shed some light

kingjammy24

08-24-2009, 10:43 PM

I was thinking more about this "first" thing....wouldn't the picture of Jordan holding up the Bulls jersey at a press conference be considered his "first" issued jersey?

the idea of a "first" is interesting because it's somewhat subjective. for me personally, a player's "first" jersey is the one they wore in their first regular season game. as i discussed with another forum member, if you went to the NBA HOF and they had the ball from jordan's "first 3 pointer" or "first game" would the ball be from the preseason or regular season?
noone ever refers to any firsts or lasts from preseason play.

anyway, GFC stated it was the "first jersey issued to jordan", as opposed to worn by him. i don't even understand the statement or how it could be made. how could anyone but jordan and the equipment manager surmise the order in which jordan physically received his jerseys? isn't it likely that jordan was issued several jerseys at once? was he really issued one jersey at a time and on different days? how is GFC saying that he was issued this one before his others? perhaps they mean "worn". in the case of the press conference home jersey, it probably is the first bulls jersey made for/handed to jordan, even prior to any practice jerseys. maybe it's even the same jersey he wore in his first regular season game. if it were the same shirt, then that shirt would truly, in every single sense, be the first shirt jordan was issued AND wore.

i'm not sure how conclusive hallum's comment can be given that PR directors typically aren't involved in the everyday details of equipment management such as what jerseys a certain player was issued and when exactly they were issued them.

rudy.

kingjammy24

08-25-2009, 10:15 AM

GFC: "In the photo match that accompanies this jersey, MJ is wearing white Nike sneakers which he only wore early in his rookie year. He later switched to his patented red and black Air Jordan Nike’s that season."

NBA.com:
"Jordan's personal style was equally authentic and unique as his basketball skills. Nike signed him to a major shoe deal because of his anticipated appeal, but he surpassed even the loftiest of expectations.One version of the sneakers he wore in his first preseason was an unseen before blend of his team's red and black colors that the NBA initially considered in violation of the "uniformity of uniform rule." Subject to fines if he continued to wear them, he occasionally did and the demand for that version and others in the Air Jordan line was unprecedented."
http://www.nba.com/history/players/jordan_bio.html

rudy.

both-teams-played-hard

08-25-2009, 04:16 PM

nba.com is wrong. In the pre-season, he wore the red and white version as seen in Grey Flannel's style-match. He also wore the red and white version in the first few regular season games of the 84-85 season.

kingjammy24

08-25-2009, 04:47 PM

both-teams-played-hard

08-25-2009, 05:22 PM

warren, from sports illustrated:

"..Jordan wore a pair of the black-background, red-swooshed Nikes during the preseason"

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1122919/4/index.htm

apparently the first regular season game that jordan wore the air jordan I's was on november 17, 1984 vs philadelphia. the 11th total game of jordan's career.

in 1984-85, how many preseason games did the bulls play? were they all on the road? did jordan wear the home uni in any of them? i'm curious how you know that jordan didn't wear the AJ1's in the preseason?

rudy.

I stand corrected. My 25-year-old memory is sketchy.
However, there are 2 versions of the Air Jordan I. One black and red, one black, red and white.
Jordan did wear those red and white Nikes (in Grey Flannel photo...NOT Air Jordans) in some preseason games and in a few of the first few regular season games. I guess the NBA ruled against the black and red only versions in the preseason. My memory is vague.

So, is the Grey Flannel Jordan from the preseason or regular season? It is not from his very first regular season game, but it does match to the thin numeral font.
Does anyone have photos of Jordan wearing the black and red only Jordan I in game-play?

otismalibu

08-25-2009, 05:27 PM

I guess the NBA ruled against the black and red only versions in the preseason.

Find out when that Letterman appearance was, where MJ & Dave were talking about the shoes that he wasn't allowed to wear.

I won't post Dave's punchline.

both-teams-played-hard

08-25-2009, 05:36 PM

Find out when that Letterman appearance was, where MJ & Dave were talking about the shoes that he wasn't allowed to wear.

I won't post Dave's punchline.

Already searched youtube...it ain't there. That has to be scripted. I don't think even Letterman is that clever off-the-cuff.

kingjammy24

08-25-2009, 06:20 PM

However, there are 2 versions of the Air Jordan I. One black and red, one black, red and white.

don't forget these:
http://img31.imageshack.us/img31/7843/jordan2z.jpg

So, is the Grey Flannel Jordan from the preseason or regular season?

we know for a fact that jordan played in his first home and first road games with properly-fonted jerseys. i'm assuming GFC's "first jersey" assertion is based on the fact that it has a name/number change. seems to me that would've most likely occurred in the preseason. again, jordan entered the 1984-85 regular season with properly-fonted jerseys. what would've been the need, later the season, to cobble together an incorrect jersey for him?

..but it does match to the thin numeral font.

but where's that pic from? sure would be nice to know. its a very unique jersey due to that font and i have scoured tons of images and video from the 1984-85 season and every single image and video i've seen has shown jordan wearing properly-fonted jerseys. it's almost as if that jersey made an appearance in the preseason and never again.

Does anyone have photos of Jordan wearing the black and red only Jordan I in game-play?

first photo is the '84 all star game. not sure what the second photo is from.

http://img188.imageshack.us/img188/8527/jordan1o.jpg

rudy.

otismalibu

08-25-2009, 07:05 PM

f
irst photo is the '84 all star game. not sure what the second photo is from.

That's the 85 AS game (84-85 season), MJ's first.

I think that 2nd pic is also from that same dunk contest. I had an old Wilson poster that featured that same pic, but a wider shot.

both-teams-played-hard

08-25-2009, 08:27 PM

don't forget these:
http://img31.imageshack.us/img31/7843/jordan2z.jpg

I am not sure if he ever wore those with the black toe in a game. But, I am unsure about many things. They are the holy grail of retail original AJI.

but where's that pic from? sure would be nice to know. its a very unique jersey due to that font and i have scoured tons of images and video from the 1984-85 season and every single image and video i've seen has shown jordan wearing properly-fonted jerseys. it's almost as if that jersey made an appearance in the preseason and never again.
I also would like to know...

first photo is the '84 all star game. not sure what the second photo is from.

http://img188.imageshack.us/img188/8527/jordan1o.jpg

rudy.
Group photo are participants from the '85 Dunk Contest. From 84-85, played in Feb. 85 in Indy.

In order from left to right:
Drexler
Woolridge
MJ
not sure? some scrub from Philly
Terrance Stansbury
'Nique
Larry Nance
Dr. Dunkenstein

The small photo of MJ is from the same dunk contest.

beantown

08-25-2009, 09:00 PM

I found another photo of MJ wearing this style font....unfortunatley don't know when/where taken....

kingjammy24

08-25-2009, 09:51 PM

in the GFC pic he isn't wearing a knee brace. in beantown's pic he is. jordan can be seen wearing a knee brace on his left knee back in his UNC days. the only pics i can find of him not wearing one in 1984 is at the all-star game. if he wore one since UNC, it makes me wonder why he's not wearing on in the GFC pic. i checked the video of his NBA debut and he wore one in his first NBA game.

http://img507.imageshack.us/img507/9839/jordan1i.jpg

anyway, i came across this quote from jordan from a nov 1986 issue of SI. he's talking about his shorts:

"Last year they were 36's," he says. "This year they're 34's that are two inches longer than normal."

rudy.

TriplexXxSports

08-26-2009, 06:43 AM

The Jordan in GFC pics clearly has a name/number change on the back. Why not try and research this rather than focus on knee braces & shoes?

You guys are onto some GREAT ideas but I think this trait is a more deceive factor in pinpointing the specific time frame this jersey is from. If one can only locate a good pic showing this characteristic....

Very quickly browsing, and it may be a far cry, I found a pic from the '84-'85 season against the Trail Blazers. The photo is dark, and the image quality is shaky at best, but does it look as though you can see the old numbers around the 2 & 3 on the back?

TriplexXxSports

08-26-2009, 06:43 AM

The pic would help....

TriplexXxSports

08-26-2009, 07:09 AM

Incorrect font. That's not it, my bad.

Does anyone have a copy of the movie 'Michael Jordan's Playground'? If I remember correctly there are some of his rookie highlights in there. Could be a source

both-teams-played-hard

08-26-2009, 09:06 AM

The Jordan in GFC pics clearly has a name/number change on the back. Why not try and research this rather than focus on knee braces & shoes?

You guys are onto some GREAT ideas but I think this trait is a more deceive factor in pinpointing the specific time frame this jersey is from. If one can only locate a good pic showing this characteristic....

The time frame has already been established. Knee braces and shoes help pinpoint this time frame.

BTW...the photo you posted in from the '87 Dunk Contest. The low-cut Jordan II's pinpoint the time frame.

kingjammy24

08-26-2009, 10:40 AM

Knee braces and shoes help pinpoint this time frame.

yes. upon seeing the GFC pic without the knee brace, my first thought was that perhaps jordan first began wearing a knee brace at a specific point in his rookie season. if you could over the games from 84-85, maybe you could see roughly at what point he began wearing it and then date jersey that way. however, he was wearing it at UNC and in his NBA debut. noticeably he didn't wear the brace in the 85 ASG/dunk contest. didn't think he'd need it? wouldn't be playing for very long? in the GFC pic, was he also playing in some sort of game where he didn't think he'd need it? wouldn't be playing long? like in some sort of exhibition game where they try to give everyone a bit of playing time? in his rookie season, jordan was playing full time. 82 games averaging 38.3 minutes a game. thats pretty much playing all 4 quarters. or maybe it's as simple as him simply not having one on hand. i don't know but it is interesting that the GFC pic shows him without a knee brace which is a rare thing. you'd think GFC's pic and beantown's pic indicate that jordan wore the incorrect jersey for at least 2 different games given the no brace/brace issue. however its possible that they're from the same game and jordan just put a brace on during the second half.

one look at the previous pic of him dunking and you can immediately tell it's not from 84/85 because of the shoes, which didn't exist in 84/85. he had the air jordan I's as of the start of the 84/85 season but first wore them nov 17 which is pretty early in the season. contrary to GFC's claim that he began wearing them later in the season. and from what i can tell, it wasn't like he wore his white/white, white/red nikes in the first part and then exclusively switched to the air jordan I's in the latter part. he seemed to mix it up thoughout the season. he was being fined $5k per game each time he wore the air jordans. what i'd like to know is how late in the season he wore the nikes. was he wearing them in march?

as for the name/number change, i've tried very hard to discern the name. i cannot. sitting here at my computer, there's nothing more i can do with the name/number change issue. it's a dead end. noone who wore #35 in previous seasons had a last name starting with "W".

1980-81 - larry kenon #35 - 6'9", 205
1981-82 - larry kenon #35 - 6'9", 205
1982-83 - larry kenon #35 - 6'9", 205
1982-83 - larry spriggs #35 - 6'7", 230
1983-84 - noone
1984-85 - noone

i do find it hard to believe that with the jersey in hand, GFC cannot discern the name either. the previous name might help a lot.

the big question that all of this is seeking to answer is did jordan ever wear the incorrect jersey in the regular season or is it strictly a preseason-only jersey. i think that issue has a big effect on the value both in a monetary sense and a collectible sense.

maybe darren/rareair23 can be of assistance.

rudy.

otismalibu

08-26-2009, 10:57 AM

you'd think GFC's pic and beantown's pic indicate that jordan wore the incorrect jersey for at least 2 different games given the no brace/brace issue. however its possible that they're from the same game and jordan just put a brace on during the second half.

Tough to tell w/o any pics of the other team, court, etc. Has the left sweat band on in each. There's gotta be another pic online somewhere that gives a little more info.

I'm sure you could see a lot more of the original name, if you could get your hands on the jersey.

rareair23.com

08-26-2009, 11:47 AM

I would say that's a pretty early rookie jersey if you ask me.....could be preseason.

rareair23.com

08-26-2009, 01:12 PM

I have an image of Jordan wearing the Black Red Air Ships wearing that specific jersey with that style numeral font....if I recall correctly it must have been preseason, but don't quote me on that till I research it further...the Banned Black/Red Air Jordan 1 marketing thing was made up by Nike...to this very day I cannot actually confirm Jordan ever wearing the Black/Red 1s in a reg. season game...other then during the Slam Dunk contest at Indianapolis 1985....this is were I need to brainstorm with Mike, since he's the expert on Jordan sneakerology..

rareair23.com

08-26-2009, 02:16 PM

The time frame has already been established. Knee braces and shoes help pinpoint this time frame.

BTW...the photo you posted in from the '87 Dunk Contest. The low-cut Jordan II's pinpoint the time frame.

I agree, the shoes...and the team in the background pinpoints a specific timeline..

kingjammy24

08-26-2009, 02:28 PM

I have an image of Jordan wearing the Black Red Air Ships wearing that specific jersey with that style numeral font....if I recall correctly it must have been preseason, but don't quote me on that till I research it further...

can you post this image? GFC is dating the jersey, in large part, to the generic white nikes which they say jordan "only wore early in his rookie year". if jordan was wearing air jordans in the preseason then GFC's theory goes out the window. here's jordan wearing air jordans as of nov 17 which would be pretty early in the season:

http://img213.imageshack.us/img213/9383/jordan3.jpg

initially, i thought it was GFC who found that pic of jordan wearing the odd font. i now realize that sothebys had it a year earlier so i take back my kudos to GFC for the pic. it seems like GFC's done an appalling lack of investigative work on what is one of the most notable jerseys to surface in many years. this isn't some $50 rag. they haven't discerned the previous nob, they haven't figured out whether it was used strictly in the preseason or whether it saw regular season action, they haven't discussed why the jersey has a font that was used years before jordan's arrival, have called it jordan's "first jersey" but haven't disclosed that in jordan's first road game he's wearing a different shirt, and haven't even specified what they mean by "first jersey issued" or how they can claim that their jersey was issued before any and all others. their theory of his white nikes shoes conclusively dating the jersey to early in his rookie season is nullified if darren posts a pic of jordan wearing air jordans in the preseason. $50k-$100k shirt and they're under the impression that it's amateur hour.

warren, greg, reid fontaine and other nba collectors, i'm curious about the potential value here. what would be the difference in value if the shirt had only been used in the preseason vs if it had been used in the preseason AND the regular season?

rudy.

rareair23.com

08-26-2009, 03:51 PM

Let me restate what I just said earlier...for the first several games, (I have it at home somewhere documenting oct/nov. when he was wearing the Nike Air Ships...which is a style like the Air Forces etc... those are what you see during the first few games...white/white air ships/ white red air ships...now I have one rare image of MJ wearing that specific jersey and the black/red AIR ships... the prototype red/black/white AJ Is ...were from part of Nov on...and for a few games I think he switched back and forth..from AJ I to Ships etc... Mike can clarify it..I have the info at home somewhere when I was doing the research at the time..

otismalibu

08-26-2009, 04:08 PM

what would be the difference in value if the shirt had only been used in the preseason vs if it had been used in the preseason AND the regular season?

I'll take Less Value for $200, Alex.

Off the top of my head, I'd probably rank NBA jerseys as:
1) reg.season/playoff jersey
2) AS game jersey
3) pre-season jersey

If I was researching this item, I'd first be looking for the Bulls pre-season schedule that season. Then make a list of the road cities and start doing newspaper research. You can find some poor quality page scans online for free. You can also buy prints from newspapers. I've done it more than once. Rare photos delivered to your door.

kingjammy24

08-26-2009, 04:27 PM

I'll take Less Value for $200, Alex.

yes but by how much? how much less for a preseason only than for a preseason AND regular season? personally, i think at least 40% less. assuming that both would be his "first issued" jersey (whatever that means). saying that in one scenario this shirt was used only in the preseason and in another scenario it was used in the preseason AND regular season. i'm thinking 40-50% price difference between the two.

If I was researching this item, I'd first be looking for the Bulls pre-season schedule that season. Then make a list of the road cities and start doing newspaper research. You can find some poor quality page scans online for free.

come on man. i'm no amateur. tried it, tried it, tried it. zip, zilch. i can't even find any 2-word mention anywhere of the bulls 1984-85 preseason except the SI and nba.com blurbs about him wearing air jordans in the preseason.

the other thing i am interested in is how late in the season did jordan wear the generic white nikes ("air ships")? can't find anything on that either. i did find him wearing them as late as dec 4. meaning he wore the generic white nikes after already wearing the air jordans. i think if you find him wearing air jordans it doesn't necessarily mean its late in the season and if you find him wearing the "air ships" it doesn't necessarily mean it's "very early" in the season as GFC implies.

rudy.

otismalibu

08-26-2009, 04:35 PM

http://i209.photobucket.com/albums/bb110/otismalibu/jordan1.jpg

kingjammy24

08-26-2009, 04:40 PM

[insert: newspaper article i failed to find]

"I didn't think anyone was capable of finding what Greg Faragher has found," marveled Celtics ace Larry Bird. "He is the most exciting, awesome poster on GUU today. I think it's just God disguised as Greg Faragher."

rudy.

otismalibu

08-26-2009, 04:40 PM

http://i209.photobucket.com/albums/bb110/otismalibu/jordan2.jpg

otismalibu

08-26-2009, 04:47 PM

http://i209.photobucket.com/albums/bb110/otismalibu/jordan3.jpg

kingjammy24

08-26-2009, 04:50 PM

what did you do..go to google, type in "1984 bulls preseason" and up those popped? i should've tried that.

ok so from that article..they had a 7-game preseason and played road games before they played any home games. so if the jersey was worn in the preseason, it would've been worn prior to any home jerseys and thus would be the first game jersey worn by him (albeit in the preseason). now only if there were some pics. i'd lay my money down that pics of him in the preseason show the GFC jersey. i'd also lay my money down against anyone finding pics of him wearing the GFC jersey in the regular season. the road exhibition games seemed to occur in rinkydink stadiums. we need photographic evidence of rinkydink backgrounds.

rudy.

LEGEND33

08-26-2009, 04:52 PM

I found this pics on italian magazine dated jan 1985.....

otismalibu

08-26-2009, 04:53 PM

Seeing these seem to be at neutral sites, I don't know which team wore the road jerseys. I usually don't research scrub players, but...
You should see the Doc info/pics I've got saved!

http://i209.photobucket.com/albums/bb110/otismalibu/jordan4.jpg

otismalibu

08-26-2009, 04:59 PM

http://i209.photobucket.com/albums/bb110/otismalibu/jordan5.jpg

kingjammy24

08-26-2009, 05:53 PM

Seeing these seem to be at neutral sites, I don't know which team wore the road jerseys.

but they're not really at neutral sites. they're played in the state of one of the teams. bulls vs knicks at glen falls was played in ny so i'm guessing it was the knicks who wore home jerseys. game vs. ks kings was played in MO.

rudy.

otismalibu

08-26-2009, 06:25 PM

but they're not really at neutral sites. they're played in the state of one of the teams. bulls vs knicks at glen falls was played in ny so i'm guessing it was the knicks who wore home jerseys. game vs. ks kings was played in MO.

You are correct sir. I wasn't even checking the teams. The first two I saw were Peoria and St. Louis. Was just thinking random cities for exhibitions. I remember watching the 76ers play an exhibition in Mobile, back in the early 90s.

both-teams-played-hard

08-26-2009, 06:26 PM

Preseason? The game photo looks convincing.

http://img197.imageshack.us/img197/6702/snapshot20090822131113.png

Does it appear that the black vinyl heat-pressed layer of the number "3" is missing?

Is this a camera angle issue?

Could this be evidence of a front number change?
When these heat-pressed numbers were changed they often would break apart in layers.

kingjammy24

08-26-2009, 06:47 PM

Does it appear that the black vinyl heat-pressed layer of the number "3" is missing?

Is this a camera angle issue?

i believe it's a camera angle/reflection issue. being heat-pressed, the numbers were glossy and thus reflective.

rudy.

CollectGU

08-26-2009, 07:52 PM

Here is a picture of Jordan in a game against the Knicks that shows a similar font Any thoughts? :

Dave

kingjammy24

08-26-2009, 08:05 PM

very interesting dave. he's wearing his knee brace. and more interesting is that he's wearing the rare red/black air jordans instead of the red/white/black ones. the ones warren said he had never seen him wear in a game, except for the all-star game. the bulls DID have an exhibition game against the knicks in glen falls. the knicks would've worn their home jerseys in that game. now listen..the FIRST time the bulls played the knicks in NY in the regular season was on nov 8. now, that pic can't be from nov 8 because the FIRST time jordan debuted the air jordans in the regular season was on nov 17. the next time the bulls were in NY was on jan 5 and lastly on mar 14. dave do you have any sort of date on that picture? if it's prior to jan 5 then it must be the exhibition game in glen falls.

rudy.

kingjammy24

08-26-2009, 08:10 PM

Here is a picture of Jordan in a game against the Knicks that shows a similar font Any thoughts? :

Dave

#42 in the pic is pat cummings. the pic can only be from 3 possible games. pat cummings may not have played in all 3. maybe greg can find the boxscores from those 3 games and figure out which one(s) cummings played in. that might nail exactly which game the pic is from.

rudy.

CollectGU

08-26-2009, 08:12 PM

Also, can any Jordan shoe guys tell us what shoes he is wearing in that picture? He played his first game against against the Knickas @ the Knicks on November 8, 1984> It was the 7th game of his career

Dave

CollectGU

08-26-2009, 08:13 PM

Rudy,

You answered my questions while I was typing, thanks...I don't have a date for that photo unfortunately

Dave

both-teams-played-hard

08-26-2009, 08:16 PM

kingjammy24

08-26-2009, 08:24 PM

here's jordan on nov 8, against the knicks, regular season:

http://img402.imageshack.us/img402/9507/jordan1.jpg

fyi, he wore all-white nikes. not air jordans.

rudy.

kingjammy24

08-26-2009, 08:27 PM

pat cummings played in the exhibition game.

rudy.

otismalibu

08-26-2009, 08:35 PM

Good job finding more photos, but one would need a pretty decent quality photo to match the jerseys. I'm not talking style matching the number font...but rather the evidence of the name & number change.

I'm gonna go out on a limb and say more than a few Jordan 'gamers' have been built after the fact.

kingjammy24

08-26-2009, 09:01 PM

both-teams-played-hard

08-26-2009, 10:07 PM

Please watch:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=83jKvj5wXxE

I still would like to see a photo of MJ wearing the black and red AJ 1s in a game.
My sources tell me the black and red Air Jordan 1 was never banned (marketing ploy by NIKE). The sneakers in the photo that Dave posted were banned (still don't know the model name.) That's the shoe that was referenced in the old Sports Illustrated article.

rareair23.com

08-27-2009, 04:36 AM

Here is a picture of Jordan in a game against the Knicks that shows a similar font Any thoughts? :

Dave
That's the preseason game against the Knicks I presume....that's the image I was talking about, those are the actual shoes that got banned..black/red ships

aeneas01

08-27-2009, 06:06 AM

That's the preseason game against the Knicks I presume....that's the image I was talking about, those are the actual shoes that got banned..black/red ships

great thread! from what i can tell the shirt looks pretty darn good - in fact if i were grey flannel i would change the wording in title description from "possible first jersey ever issued to jordan" to "possible first nba jersey ever worn by jordan". btw i found the preseason/value vs season/value debate interesting although, i have to say, i would think the first nba shirt jordan ever sweated in would be pretty damn valuable, preseason or not - but, hey, that's just me.

here are some newspaper/magazine photos from jordan's rookie year that i dug up and i think at least one or two confirm that jordan sported the gfc style shirt during the regular season (game 16 @ warriors (maybe), game 25 @ nets (probably), game 39 @ nets (maybe)) - i've also included other photos that might help with the raging sneaker debate.

for the record, given the 1984 style match that had already been provided in the lot description, i don't think gfc's "possibility" claim was an unfair or misleading estimation - in fact i think gfc would have severely shortchanged the consignor had they failed to mention this possibilty.

anyway, if jordan wore the gfc style during the regular season, which i believe the game 25 @ nets photo confirms, then it would seem that it could certainly be the very first pro jersey jordan ever wore. and it would strike me as much more valuable than his first "regular season" shirt. jmo.

game 1 - 10/26/84 bullets

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y238/aeneas1/01gm0110_26_84bullets.jpg

game 1 - 10/26/84 bullets

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y238/aeneas1/02gm0110_26_84bullets.jpg

game 3 - 10/29/84 bucks:

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y238/aeneas1/03gm0310_29_84bucks.jpg

game 3 - 10/29/84 bucks:

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y238/aeneas1/04gm0310_29_84bucks.jpg

game 7 - 11/08/4 knicks:

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y238/aeneas1/05gm0711_08_84knicks.jpg

game 16 - 11/27/84 warriors:

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y238/aeneas1/06gm1611_27_84warriors.jpg

game 19 - 12/02/84 lakers:

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y238/aeneas1/07gm1912_02_84lakers.jpg

game 21 -12/07/84 knicks:

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y238/aeneas1/08gm2112_07_84knicks.jpg

game 25 - 12/14/84 nets:

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y238/aeneas1/09gm2512_14_84nets.jpg

game 31 - 01/02/85 hawks:

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y238/aeneas1/10gm3201_02_85hawks.jpg

game 35 - 01/09/85 celtics:

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y238/aeneas1/11gm3501_09_85celtics.jpg

game 36 - 01/11/85 knicks:

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y238/aeneas1/12gm3601_11_85knicks.jpg

game 37 - 01/12/85 cavs:

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y238/aeneas1/13gm3701_12_85cavs.jpg

game 39 - 01/16/85 nets:

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y238/aeneas1/14gm3901_16_85nets.jpg

game 52 - 02/17/85 bucks:

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y238/aeneas1/15gm5202_17_85bucks.jpg

game 70 - 03/20/85 spurs:

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y238/aeneas1/16gm7003_20_85spurs.jpg

game 80 - 04/08/85 pacers:

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y238/aeneas1/17gm8004_08_85pacers.jpg

game 81 - 04/12/85 hawks:

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y238/aeneas1/18gm8104_12_85hawks.jpg

...

TriplexXxSports

08-27-2009, 06:23 AM

GFC jordan on the left, GUF pics on the right. what you're looking
for is the previous number remnant on the right side of the "2" and
on the upper left side of the "3". photomatch?

http://img41.imageshack.us/img41/9839/jordan1i.jpg

i think dave o'brien's pic is a match. the way the remnant veers
to the left.

rudy.

Rudy,

You are definitely on to something. If you focus close on the larger of the 2 black & white pics, you can make out the the angle at which the pre-existing 3 cuts back into the #2 (if that makes sense). Also, I have to agree that it appears that on the inside loop of the pre-existing 3, the angle does appear to lean in on that same pic.

It is tough to tell if the above mentioned angle of the 3 cuts back towards the 2 on the smaller of the black & white photos. The angle of that shot doesn't help, but there is definitely something there.

I cannot tell, or see, anything too concrete on the color photos. The bottom right is too bright and blurry to see anything. The top right color photo seems to show a 'shadow', which you highlighted, but b/c of the quality, and angle of the shot, it is extremely hard to see any definite angles of a pre-existing 5. That is a tough call b/c across from that 'shadow' there is no signs of the pre-existing 3 on the #2, like in the other pic.

Without a doubt this is the best evidence yet as to the mystery of this jersey. Maybe some more pics of that game exist and they will pop up soon.

Outstanding job to both of you for finding that pic, and making the comparison.

kingjammy24

08-27-2009, 10:17 AM

here are some newspaper/magazine photos from jordan's rookie year that i dug up and i think at least one or two confirm that jordan sported the gfc style shirt during the regular season (game 16 @ warriors (maybe), game 25 @ nets (probably), game 39 @ nets (maybe))

here are the 3 games you quoted:

http://img165.imageshack.us/img165/6638/jordan4.jpg

personally, i'm not seeing any matches to the GFC font. i'm not looking at the black of the numbers, but at the white and presence/absence of red in the upper/inside area of the "2" and inside the "3". i'd say the third pic is definitely not a match. the first pic doesn't appear to match. the second pic is inconclusive. i don't believe or see how it "confirms" it.

rudy.

kingjammy24

08-27-2009, 10:18 AM

re: dave o'brien's pic

given the shoes that jordan is wearing in dave's pic wouldn't be safe to say that the pic is definitely from the preseason as jordan never wore those particular shoes in the regular season?

rudy.

kingjammy24

08-27-2009, 10:25 AM

re: aeneas' matches

the game vs nj. game # 25 or 39. here's a pic of jordan vs the nets in 1984-85. can't tell conclusively if its game 25 or 39 but i'd say judging from his white/red nike air ships, it's more likely to be 25.

http://img188.imageshack.us/img188/7138/jordan1e.jpg

rudy.

LEGEND33

08-27-2009, 01:30 PM

... larger size of my pics

LEGEND33

08-27-2009, 01:36 PM

..larger size..2

genius

08-27-2009, 02:06 PM

As a casual observer with no stake in trying to prove or disprove this jersey's authenticity, I think the evidence tilts towards this being a Jordan rookie gamer of some sort. Serious Jordan collectors have to weigh this against whether there's even a chance that an iron-clad bullet-proof photo-matched Jordan rookie gamer even exists, especially his "first" one, and what that would fetch price-wise compared to this. If you were to replace "Jordan" with "Lemieux" and we were looking at photos of Mario's rookie year, with debates over little nuances like previous heat-sealed numeral remnants and whether he wore it in game 5 or game 35, I'd be all over it and in fact I'd be hoping for people to raise doubt in order to keep competitive bidders away.

otismalibu

08-27-2009, 03:34 PM

I got this from an APBR member. I'm assuming it's accurate.

Not sure if every Bulls pre-season game has been established in the press clippings above or not. But, FWIW...

10/5 Bulls 102, Ind 98 @ Peoria
10/7 Bulls 107, KC 100 @ St. Louis
10/9 Bulls 100, Mil 97 @ E Chcago
10/13 Bucks 99, Bulls 84 @ Milw
10/15 Bulls 91, NY 90 @ Glens Falls
10/18 Bulls 112, NY 93 @ NY
10/19 Kings 103, Bulls 89 @ Chicago

kingjammy24

08-27-2009, 03:44 PM

kingjammy24

08-27-2009, 05:01 PM

1) alberto's last 2 pics show the knicks. in the last pic jordan appears to be wearing black/red shoes. in his first regular season game at MSG, jordan had a correct jersey. i believe this likely means that alberto's last 2 pics are from the same exhibition game as dave o'brien's pic; the preseason game in glen falls.

2) according to press clippings, jordan's first preseason game was in peoria, IL against indiana. as such, jordan would've worn a home jersey. in his first preseason game, jordan wore a home jersey. in his first regular season game, jordan wore a home jersey. in his first road regular season game, jordan didn't wear the GFC shirt. it is not possible for the GFC shirt to be jordan's "first" shirt, either preseason or regular season.

robert, do you feel it was remiss of GFC, who stand to collect a handsome profit on this jersey, not to do the research that a small collection of amateur collectors managed to do for free, before declaring they likely had jordan's "first jersey"? i do. GFC had 1 photo that was previously used by Sotheby's. this thread managed to produce several photos showing jordan wearing the incorrect font. none of the posters on here have access to all of the resources of the NBA HOF and none of them claim to be the "official authenticators for the NBA HOF" yet they all outperformed GFC's efforts several times over. usually you get what you pay for in life but GFC seems to be an exception. GFC did end up being remiss, but it was in calling the shirt jordan's "first", not the reverse. if this is indicative of the effort GFC puts into his highest-end premier items, one can only imagine what they do with the mid-range items.

rudy.

kingjammy24

08-27-2009, 05:18 PM

nba.com:

"Perhaps appropriately, it began in Peoria. You know the old line about whether it will “play in Peoria,” being shorthand for whether it would be accepted by America. Michael Jordan’s first professional game was in Peoria, an NBA exhibition between the Bulls and Indiana Pacers. Jordan scored 18 points in 29 minutes and the Bulls won.."

so much for it being his first jersey. i guess now the only question left is whether he ever wore the jersey in the regular season.

rudy.

both-teams-played-hard

08-27-2009, 06:44 PM

Grey Flannel needs to uncover a photo of Jordan from this game in Peoria.

kingjammy24

08-27-2009, 06:47 PM

Grey Flannel needs to uncover a photo of Jordan from this game in Peoria.

when the bulls played the knicks in glen falls, the knicks wore home whites due to them being in the state of ny. with the game being in peoria, IL isn't it a foregone conclusion that the bulls wore the home whites while the pacers would've obviously worn their road unis? the GFC shirt is a road shirt sooo......

rudy.

aeneas01

09-02-2009, 04:58 PM

1. according to press clippings, jordan's first preseason game was in peoria, IL against indiana. as such, jordan would've worn a home jersey.

2. when the bulls played the knicks in glen falls, the knicks wore home whites due to them being in the state of ny. with the game being in peoria, IL isn't it a foregone conclusion that the bulls wore the home whites while the pacers would've obviously worn their road unis? the GFC shirt is a road shirt.....

3. "Michael Jordan’s first professional game was in Peoria, an NBA exhibition between the Bulls and Indiana Pacers. Jordan scored 18 points in 29 minutes and the Bulls won.." so much for it being his first jersey...

gotta tell ya my friend, these posts of yours struck me as highly ironic! in fact i can only imagine the field day you would have with an auction house if it made the same claims in a lot description - that a shirt was clearly as described, a home shirt for example, because teams "obviously" wore home shirts when playing at nearby neutral sites during the preseason! mama mia rudy! :)

as far as the peoria and glens falls preseason games are concerned, peoria is roughly equidistant from chicago and indianapolis while glens falls is over 700 miles away from chicago! granted, peoria is indeed in illinois but, nonetheless, i wouldn't hang my hat on the bulls wearing home shirts because of this to argue a point!

anyway i contacted the sports department of peoria journal star:

----------------------------

Robert,

I found a photo from Michael Jordan's professional debut on Oct. 5, 1984 at the Peoria Civic Center. The day after Jordan's debut our newspaper ran a photo from the game and the Bulls indeed were wearing their road (dark) jerseys with Chicago written across the front of their uniforms.

I found the photo on our out-dated microfilm machine and it is very hazy, so I didn't bother to have it scanned in and sent to you (per your request I will see if I can discern the difference in number fonts based on the photos you emailed to me).

Let me know if this helps.

Thanks,

Joe Bates
Peoria Journal Star sports department
jbates@pjstar.com[/font] (jbates@pjstar.com)
Phone (309) 686-3214
Fax (309) 686-3205

GFC did end up being remiss, but it was in calling the shirt jordan's "first", not the reverse.

i think we should be fair - gfc clearly didn't call the jersey "jordan's first" as you state. gfc has referred to the jersey as jordan's "possible" first shirt based on, at least in part, hallam's comments regarding the number change. i think there is a big difference, don't you?

anyway, as i posted before, if i were gfc i would change the wording in lot title from "possible first jersey ever issued to jordan" to "possible first nba jersey ever worn by jordan"... seems to me plenty points to the possibility.

...

both-teams-played-hard

09-02-2009, 06:33 PM

Robert
Good work in contacting the dude from the Peoria newspaper.
All good points from contributing members. Although, neither you, nor I, nor Rudy are the official authenticators for the Basketball Hall of Fame in Springfield, Mass.
Isn't a 10% or 15% or whatever amount commission worth some research?

kingjammy24

09-02-2009, 06:38 PM

"gotta tell ya my friend, these posts of yours struck me as highly ironic! in fact i can only imagine the field day you would have with an auction house if it made the same claims in a lot description - that a shirt was clearly as described, a home shirt for example, because teams "obviously" wore home shirts when playing at nearby neutral sites during the preseason!"

1) playing in a home state t'ain't neutral.
2) t'wouldn't be a field day for me as it'd make sense.
3) if you want to gauge it on distance, then peoria is still closer to chicago than it is to indianapolis by a good 40-50 miles! if you do it by home state, chicago wears home shirts. if you do it by distance, chicago still wears home shirts. under what bizarro logic does chicago play indianapolis in peoria and the pacers are the ones who show up in home shirts?

"as far as the peoria and glens falls preseason games are concerned, peoria is roughly equidistant from chicago and indianapolis while glens falls is over 700 miles away from chicago! granted, peoria is indeed in illinois but, nonetheless, i wouldn't hang my hat on the bulls wearing home shirts
because of this to argue a point!"

so if the indians ever played the tigers in toledo, OH, one shouldn't expect the indians to show up wearing home shirts because detroit's physically closer to toledo than cleveland is. i guess it wouldn't be the first time i assumed too much.

"anyway i contacted the sports department of peoria journal star"

as i expected you to! ;) if joe bates says they've got a conclusively dated pic of the bulls/pacers preseason game on oct 5, 1984 and the bulls are wearing road reds, then i suppose that's what it is even if it doesn't make a lick of sense. anyway, there's been some great research done in this thread, including your own. neither you nor i could remotely be considered to be knowledgable about basketball jerseys or bulls history but we've done more to uncover the truth about this shirt than the official authenticators for the NBA HOF who were paid a handsome fee to market the shirt. the GFC description should've included detailed information about jordan's first preseason game in peoria and should reveal specifics about the previous name and number on the jersey. collectors would benefit far more from that info than from the useless comparisons to babe ruth's first bat.

in addition to changing the title of the lot (because as it stands it makes little sense), i believe GFC should mention that the shirt was not worn in jordan's first regular season game or in his first regular season road game and that the "first" they're referring to is his first preseason game, because the assumption for most would be that "firsts", "lasts" and anything in between refer strictly to the regular-season. they should also mention that as "possible" as it is that jordan wore it in his first preseason game, it's also very possible that jordan never wore it during the regular season.

rudy.

nickacs

09-02-2009, 06:53 PM

I contacted GF about the jersey and received the following:

"We are not sure if the shirt was worn during pre-season or regular season. The photo we have is indeed a photomatch of this shirt with MJ wearing it on the court during a game."

So, doesn't look like there's anymore information they have about the jersey. I agree that the best idea would be if they changed the description, but seeing how someone already bid, doesn't look like that would happen now. Someone wants it! :)

I agree the research/contributions here have been great and thank everyone for their time!

otismalibu

09-02-2009, 08:16 PM

The photo we have is indeed a photomatch of this shirt with MJ wearing it on the court during a game."

I'm guessing a GFC 'photomatch' differs slightly from a MeiGray 'photomatch'.

aeneas01

09-02-2009, 08:28 PM

1) playing in a home state t'ain't neutral.
2) t'wouldn't be a field day for me as it'd make sense.
3) if you want to gauge it on distance, then peoria is still closer to chicago than it is to indianapolis by a good 40-50 miles! if you do it by home state, chicago wears home shirts. if you do it by distance, chicago still wears home shirts. under what bizarro logic does chicago play indianapolis in peoria and the pacers are the ones who show up in home shirts?

1) sure it is, given certain circumstances - if the super bowl was held in chicago (soldier field) and the bears represented the nfc, it would still be considered a neutral site for both teams. and, go figure, it works the other way around as well at times - the saints called new jersey and san antonio home in 2005 due to katrina and, get this, they wore their home shirts during those games!
2) sure it would, fess up now...
3) perhaps the game was originally slated to be played in indiana somewhere, the schedules printed, but plans changed - so the pacers remained the home team. who knows. doesn't strike me as one of the more bizarre events to transpire in sports history....

as far as the gfc style shirt not being worn during the regular season is concerned, i think the jury is still pretty much out on that - seems to me it very well could have been worn during the regular season, certainly a "possibility" imo. and given everything that's been presented in this thread, i think there's a very real possibility that this could be the first nba shirt jordan ever sported. further, if jordan wore this particular shirt during his first game as a pro (preseason in peoria) and during the regular season, which does seem to be a possibility afaic, then i think it would have to be considered one of the most valuable/rare jordan gamers to have surfaced. hey, but that's just me.

perhaps auction houses and evaluators should employ some sort of worksheet that details the evaluation work done on each lot, some sort of worksheet that clearly shows how and why the opinion was formed, complete with references to provenance and stylematched photos. seems to me if something like that was in place, collectors could rest assured that what they were purchasing was indeed as described. wait a minute....

....

sportscentury

09-02-2009, 09:04 PM

I'm guessing a GFC 'photomatch' differs slightly from a MeiGray 'photomatch'.

A MeiGray photomatch differs markedly from a lot of people's understandings of a photomatch. For starters, just check out the numerous "photomatch" threads on GUU. Tough to keep up with all of stylematch-at-best posts.

kingjammy24

09-02-2009, 09:28 PM

warren: "Isn't a 10% or 15% or whatever amount commission worth some research?"

their buyer's premium is 20%. i couldn't find anything about a seller's premium on their website but in this lawsuit, it says the seller's premium is 10%:

www.websupp.org/data/EDNY/2:06-cv-05157-13-EDNY.pdf (http://www.websupp.org/data/EDNY/2:06-cv-05157-13-EDNY.pdf)

i'd think 30% warrants some research.

"The photo we have is indeed a photomatch"

indeed!

"perhaps auction houses and evaluators should employ some sort of worksheet that details the evaluation work done on each lot"

no need. i once visited our friends in the hamptons and asked if i could meet with nick coppola and watch him action. they asked me if i'd ever seen the wizard of oz, which i thought was an odd question. upon escorting me to the back room, they pulled back a curtain and i finally came face to face with the great coppola:

http://img254.imageshack.us/img254/9617/jordan1a.jpg

i told them i thought using a fortune teller arcade game was a little dated and inaccurate. no problem, they reassured me, they had a brand new, high tech authenticating solution in the works. fully automated and computerized with a 100% accuracy rate. i couldn't believe it so i asked to see their new fangled contraption:

http://img199.imageshack.us/img199/15/jordan2p.jpg

rudy.

both-teams-played-hard

09-02-2009, 10:06 PM

http://img137.imageshack.us/img137/5509/8ball.jpg

kingjammy24

09-17-2009, 05:30 PM

jersey sold for $66,000. 20% buyers/10% sellers = $19,800 cut for GFC.

rudy.

aeneas01

09-21-2009, 02:27 AM

only one lot fetched more, the chamberlain jersey...

...

thejordanman

10-29-2010, 08:01 PM

I just stumbled upon this discussion a few days ago...
even though it's been over a year since anyone has posted a comment,
I thought I'd put something of interest on here.

Sometime during the 1990's I had a gentleman approach me at a show, offering to sell me some negatives of a few Chicago Bulls from 1984.
Don't recall if he worked for the press, freelance, or the Bulls photographer.
The negatives were never printed or published.

I had prints made, and found that over two rolls were from the Chicago Bulls first regular season game played on 10/26/1984 - at home against the Washington Bullets. This guy really focused on Jordan, as most of the photos featured him. There was a partial roll that pictured the Bulls in their 2nd regular season game played on 10/27/1984 - played in Milwaukee against the Bucks.
Anyway, there were a couple close-ups of Michael, showing the back of his jersey. It appears there was a name change.
I can't tell if it matches the one sold by Grey Flannel, as it's hard to make out any change of the numbers, but name is obvious.
I'll let you guys be the judge.
My apologies for the quality, would look better if scanned.http://i1090.photobucket.com/albums/i366/thejordanman/IMG_1991.jpg

CollectGU

10-29-2010, 09:24 PM

Sonny25

10-29-2010, 09:27 PM

There's video footage of Jordan's very first NBA game out there.
The entire 2nd half has been replayed numerous times on channels like NBATv, ESPN Classic, etc.

Still a cool photo, would love to see more from that game.

thejordanman

10-29-2010, 10:28 PM

WOW! This is huge, it appears to be a "W" underneath confirming the jersey! You should notify Grey Flannel I'm sure you could sell the originals to the owner with a notarized letter explaing whwre you got it for a pretty penny ( got to be worth at least$1,000 to the owner of the jersey). Have the mods take that photo down asap!
Best,
Dave

Dave,
The thought has certainly crossed my mind. :)
If they paid over $60,000 for the jersey, what's a $1000 for proof? :p
I've looked at some photos of the Grey Flannel jersey, and not sure if
these are the same. Can't imagine the Bulls would have recycled more
than one, but you never know.
I actually have better photos, some zoomed in straight on his back.
I'll have to pull those out and do a real comparison.
It's almost as if the photographer noticed the name change, and was taking close-up photos to show someone!

CollectGU

10-29-2010, 10:30 PM

I don't believe that there is video that conclusively shows the name change on back like this photo. This photo can potentially be used be used for a true photo match and the video likely isn't clear enough to provide that

dave

CollectGU

10-29-2010, 10:33 PM

Dave,
The thought has certainly crossed my mind. :)
If they paid over $60,000 for the jersey, what's a $1000 for proof? :p
I've looked at some photos of the Grey Flannel jersey, and not sure if
these are the same. Can't imagine the Bulls would have recycled more
than one, but you never know.
I actually have better photos, some zoomed in straight on his back.
I'll have to pull those out and do a real comparison.
It's almost as if the photographer noticed the name change, and was taking close-up photos to show someone!

The more I think about it, $1,000 is low. If your photos provide a photo match the jersey's value may jump to $100,000 in my opinion

otismalibu

10-29-2010, 10:42 PM

I'm guessing people are already making their own prints from that scan.

Great pic though.

bronx_burner

10-29-2010, 10:46 PM

I would think that the rest of the roll of film, assuming theres some other decent shots would cement this being the same jersey as the GF jersey. I'm already convinced by that one shot. The number change under the 2 seems to match. And the thing that sticks out the most to me is the name change "leftover" at the top left corner of the O in Jordan. If I was the owner of the jersey I'd certainly look to get my hands on your photos. Either way, very cool to see some detective work supporting something as real rather than the other way around which seems to happen far too often.

thejordanman

10-29-2010, 10:57 PM

Well, I just looked at another one of my photos, and while it doesn't show up as dark (or obvious) as the Grey Flannel picture - you are able to see the previous number outline. It does appear to match the GF jersey.
I'd love to share the photos... but enough freebies :):):)

both-teams-played-hard

10-30-2010, 02:40 PM

Incredible! If this was only discovered 16 months ago. I hope the buyer of the jersey contacts you!

CollectGU

10-30-2010, 03:01 PM

Beginning to end this has to be one of the best threads of the forum. If only there were more like this, instead of: " I need help photo matching my Einar Diaz bat"

Dave

thejordanman

10-30-2010, 06:15 PM

Kind of funny, it was recommended I take the photo down...
and it disappeared - but I didn't request it or do it.
Think there's an issue with photobucket.

I have no problem sharing the photos, and it would be great to
see the owner of the jersey get them.

I agree, it's a great thread and interesting to read. As I read through this, I started thinking about the photos I had... What's the chance that I'd have the game photos to match it?

How many times have I bought a game worn or used item, and would
have died to get a photo match? I'm never that lucky. Maybe I should
have bought the jersey!!

Do you think all the photos from his first game have any value?
Probably can't sell them without the NBA wanting their share? :rolleyes: