Wagner T206 Backs

[swschultz]

Does anyone know how many different T206 Honus Wagner backs there are? In the minimal research I have done, I have only heard of the Piedmont and the Sweet Caporal. Maybe there are many more, but I don't know. Has anyone seen one with a Sovereign back? I came across one of these potentially for sale.

It seems to me that if someone was going to fake one of these cards, they would consider running with one of the known Wagner backs (probably meaning Piedmont) that are known to be more scarce. Of course a more common back would raise less red flags and still bring in a good amount of money, if someone could pull of the sale. Just thinking out loud.

If Piedmont backs are scarce, and Sovereign backs are unheard of, I would figure the Sovereign to potentially bring a higher dollar (taking into consideration condition of course).

Any thoughts?

[Rob L]

That's it - Piedmont and Sweet Caporal.

[swschultz]

Thanks for your reponse Rob. So obviously you are saying that the card for sale with a Sovereign back is not real.

It seems pretty odd as I was alluding to in my original post that someone would fake a Wagner card with a back that it can't truly have, doesn't it? Couldn't this possibly mean that there really is an original card with this type of back?

I'm pretty sure I know the answer to this question, but are there any official records out there (from the original manufacturers) of what cards were printed with which style of backs? Is it that there are only two types of back for the Wagner card, or only two known types? Just posing the question...

Thanks again

[corsairs22]

As I understand it, the Wagners were produced early in the run. The Sweet Caporals and the Piedmonts seem to be the first brands to include cigarette cards. In fact, some believe that the Piedmont backed Wagners never made it into packs at all. Why would someone produce a fake Wagner with a different back? Maybe they figure that if someone is gullible enough to think their fake Wagner is real, they might also be gullible enough to pay more for one with a rare back.

[sox83cubs84]

Thanks for your reponse Rob. So obviously you are saying that the card for sale with a Sovereign back is not real.

It seems pretty odd as I was alluding to in my original post that someone would fake a Wagner card with a back that it can't truly have, doesn't it? Couldn't this possibly mean that there really is an original card with this type of back?

I'm pretty sure I know the answer to this question, but are there any official records out there (from the original manufacturers) of what cards were printed with which style of backs? Is it that there are only two types of back for the Wagner card, or only two known types? Just posing the question...

Thanks again

Actually, back in the 1970s, someone DID create a fake Wagner Piedmont card. A common T206 with a Piedmont back was glued to the back of an E-series caramel card of Wagner that used the same portrait, but had different wording in the name and team IDs. The owner, Dick Reuss, a late, great, Michigan card collector, decided to take a risk and dropped the card in some sort of water-based solution, realizing that he may well be destroying a literally one-of-its-kind card if he was wrong. Fortunately, he was correct..the two pasted-together cards separated almost immediately.

I don't profess to be a tobacco card expert, but I know the conventional wisdom of two or three decades ago was that T206 Wagners were only found with Sweet Caporal backs.

Dave M.
Chicago area

[corsairs22]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't there was some talk a while back about a strip of 5 Piedmont t206's among which there was a Wagner? Maybe that was revealed to be a fake, like the others that pop up. I admit that I don't follow this stuff at all.

[D.Broughman]

Is this the strip your thinking of ? It is pictured in 1999 Sotherby auction book. D.

[corsairs22]

No, because that strip has a blank back and the fronts have printers' marks. Maybe I'm thinking of the strip that generated the famous Gretzky McNall Wagner which I believe has a Piedmont back.

Rather than do any real research, I will quote from the 2008 Robert Edward Auction of a Sweet Cap Wagner:

"The Wagner card, like all the cards in the collection, has an advertisement for Sweet Caporal Cigarettes on the back. Sweet Caporal was clearly the grandfather's brand of choice, and it is very fortunate that this was the case, as all but two or three of the approximately fifty known examples of the T206 Wagner have a Sweet Caporal back."

http://http://www.robertedwardauctions.com/auction/2008/2.html

If Rob Lifson says there are a couple Wagners with non- Sweet Caporal backs, that's good enough for me. It is my surmise that the two exceptions are the Piedmonts.