2005 Pujols game used bat

[justinlm24]

Can anyone offer any opinions on this bat. The seller wants to do a trade for this bat, but I want to make sure this bat looks good before I do it. I know nothing about pujols gamers, so any advice would be great. Thanks.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=8822009338&rd=1&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWA%3AIT&rd=1

[mr.miracle]

Hello Justin:

This bat was previously sold on ebay by John Taube back in Feb 2006 I believe. I have included a link here that Jeff "Birdbats" Scott pointed me to that discussed this very bat. The bottom line is that this bat saw 5 at bats for the entire year according to Mr. Birdbats calculations and he would know because he keeps detailed reports on every bat used by Pujols during every at bat of the year. Please reference this discussion for more info. Hope that helps.

http://www.gameuseduniverse.com/vb_forum/showthread.php?t=1329&highlight=albert+pujols+game

Brett

[mr.miracle]

Please allow me to clarify, it saw 5 total at bats from Albert Pujols, someone else obviously used it quite extensively given the amount of wear it is showing.

Brett

[mr.miracle]

Justin:

The seller sent this to me this morning. Nice of him to mention that the bat saw five total at bats from Albert during 2005 in the auction listing. It never came up until I brought it up in my response to his sell offer. Yeah, it sure is rare, it is rare that Albert actually used the bat.:rolleyes: A bit pricy for a bat that Albert used 5 times. I think I will wait for one that saw a few more plate appearances and one that I am sure Johnny the bat boy didn't tear up prior to the games during batting practice


I appreciate the pictures, after doing some research, I have learned that
Albert only used a Rawlings bat for 5 total at bats in 2005 meaning a
teammate must have used this bat extensively as Albert is known to loan out
bats a lot. Based on that information, I am going to pass.

Thanks
Brett
The COA reads - "Bill Steele (Ralings' Pro player representative) hand delivered this bat to Pujols in Pittsburgh, during the Cardinals series with the Pirates in August of 2005." (that is some great provenance, you will find with very few bats)

I also did some research - check it out for yourself =
Pujols was observed useing a natural Rawlings bat in just two games (5 AT BATS) during 2005. He had one plate appearance on August 23 in Pittsburgh and four plate appearnces on August 31 in Florida. (Matches right up with the COA) i got the info from Birdwatch.com.

I have spoke to John Taube personaly he assured me Bill Steele hand delivered this bat to Pujols. You can contact John Taube at JTbats if you question the Game Use.

Vine Malta & John Taube have authenticated this bat as Game Used by Pujols!
This could be one of the rarest fully authencated Pujols 2005 mvp bat ever!
http://gfx1.hotmail.com/i.p.reply.gif (javascript:MP('/cgi-bin/compose?type=r'))|http://gfx1.hotmail.com/i.p.replyall.gif (javascript:MP('/cgi-bin/compose?type=ra'))|http://gfx1.hotmail.com/i.p.fwd.gif (javascript:MP('/cgi-bin/compose?type=f'))

[justinlm24]

Thanks guys, I'll steer clear of this bat. That's why I love you guys. Saved myself a raw deal. Thanks again.

[mr.miracle]

As always, it has been an honor.:D

[trsent]

Please advise what is wrong with this bat, that you would say this? It was confirmed that Pujols used it and the stories matches up perfectly. In my opinion, this would be a great Pujols bat to own.

[mr.miracle]

If you want a bat which Albert used for 5 total at bats last year then that is your bat. If you want or expect a bat that is used 250 times like this bat shows in the pictures then this is not your bat as Albert clearly did not use it that often. There is nothing wrong with the bat other than the fact the Albert used it in a game for five total at bats is never mentioned by anyone trying to sell this bat. That is the problem.

Brett

[trsent]

Ok, so if Albert takes a bat, takes one swing at a pitch in a game and misses, then decides to switch bats in the middle of his at-bat, the bat is technically a game used bat.

Why would a seller mention that it was only used for one swing then not used again? It is game used, right? Why discourage bidding by stating "This bat was used for one pitch, so I want to discourage bidding and tell you this, it is game used, but for only one pitch so don't bother bidding because I know you'd rather have an item that was used for 10,000 pitches and comes with a letter from Albert's Wife."

My problem is that the original poster mentioned that this is a "raw deal" but in reality, it is a great deal on a bat that has a great background.

Too bad the guy is on the shelf for 3-8 weeks, so much for the Bonds record.

[mr.miracle]

You had better believe that if I was bidding on this bat that shows great game use and was able to later prove after buying it that it was only used in 5 total at bats by the player that I would be very pissed off. If this bat looked like it saw 5 at bats it would make sense. It does not. Perhaps I am looking for a bit of honesty here. Sure you want to sell the item but as the seller you want a happy customer and if you know the bat was used only 5 total times which this seller admits in his email yet it appears nowhere in the auction that is just bad business. If you withhold valuable info. about this item what else might you withhold. I am not sure how this is so valuable as it sold originally for around $800.00 and nobody bid on the thing on ebay this time for $2000.00 obviously the public does not see it that way. If I want a Pujols gamer, I want a well used Pujols gamer USED BY PUJOLS. If that is the way you choose to do business in your house more power to you, it is not the way I choose to do business under any circumstances.

[mr.miracle]

By the way, the seller is still looking to sell so feel free to contact him and pick it up since you seem to like it so much

Brett

[Oil Can Dan]

Why would a seller mention that it was only used for one swing then not used again? It is game used, right? Why discourage bidding by stating "This bat was used for one pitch, so I want to discourage bidding and tell you this, it is game used, but for only one pitch so don't bother bidding because I know you'd rather have an item that was used for 10,000 pitches and comes with a letter from Albert's Wife."

Would you buy the bat without seeing a picture? If not, what would you be looking for in the picture, assuming you took him at his word that this is a "game used by Albert Pujols bat"?

Or a better way to ask the question, if you were the seller and you included the picture which very clearly showed a lot of game use, would you really not feel obligated to state that much of the game use came from someone other than Pujols?

Personally I would find that to be very disingenuous. If you're going to show a picture of a bat that has tremendous game use and you're going to call it "game used by Albert Pujols", I think you need to explain that the vast majority of the game use was by someone else (assuming you know this).

[Jonathan]

HELLO EVERYBODY,
THIS IS MY BAT!! I AM THE SELLER!!
THIS IS MY FIRST POST................. DUE TO ALL THE NEGATIVE TALK*

NORMALLY WHEN BUYING ANY GAME USED ITEM YOU NEVER KNOW WHEN/HOW EXACTLY IT WAS USED (AND YOU DO NEED TO BE AWARE OTHER PLAYERS ON THE TEAM "COULD HAVE" RECEIVED THE BAT.)

MAYBE!,
MAYBE A STAR PAYER HIT WITH THE BAT ONCE OR TWICE THEN HANDED THAT BAT TO A FRIEND OR A PLAYER ON THE TEAM OR EVEN A "Batboy". MAYBE THAT FRIEND PLAYER OR "Batboy" HIT A BALL AND WISHED THEY COULD SWING IT LIKE PUJOLS.
SINCE WE ARE MAKING UP STORIES TO GO WITH MY BAT - Can we say Pujols used my bat 5 at bats then gave it to Rollen he used it for 250 at bats!

I REALLY LIKE THAT STORY!


BUT THE REAL FACTS OF MY BAT:

FULL PSA/DNA GAME USED COA - CRET # C86459
PSA/DNA IS ONE OF THE FEW THAT OFFER ONLINE CERTIFICATION FOR THERE GAME USED ITEMS. JUST GO TO PSA/DNA.COM

PSA/DNA STATES THIS BAT WAS USED BY PUJOLS NO OTHER NAMES!

BILL STEELE (Rawlings pro player representative) HAND DELIVERED THIS BAT TO PUJOLS IN PITTSBURGH, DURING THE CARDINALS SERIES WITH THE PIRATES IN AUGUST OF 2005! - (PROVENANCE - DOES IT GET ANY BETTER??)

I DID SOME RESEARCH AND FOUND OUT PUJOLS RARELY USED THIS STYLE BAT IN 2005 (only 5-6 times all year), SO I TRIED TO GET SOME DATES. I FOUND OUT PUJOLS WAS SEEN USING THIS STYLE BAT ON AUGUST 23 IN PITTSBURGH FROM A COMPLETELY DIFFERENT SOURCE........WOW, THAT GOES PERFECTLY WITH THE COA!

-

IN MY "OPINION" USED ONCE IN A GAME, IS GAME USED - MOST BASEBALLS ARE USED ONLY ONCE - MOST BASE'S - AND EVEN SOME JERSEY'S.

I HAVE NEVER SEEN ANYONE SELLING A GAME USED BAT OR HAVE A COA THAT TELLS YOU EXACTLY HOW MANY TIMES THE ITEM WAS USED??

PLUS PUJOLS COULD HAVE USED THE BAT FOR BATTING PRACTICE AFTER USING IT IN A GAME! = THERE ARE SO MANY POSSIBILITIES & KNOWONE CAN SAY HOW A BAT WAS USED THROGHOUT ITS LIFE BUT PUJOLS.= EVEN THE COA's STRAIGHT FROM PUJOLS DO NOT TELL YOU EXACTLY WHEN/HOW HIS ITEMS WERE USED.

I HAVE A GAME USED ALBERT PUJOLS BAT WITH PSA/DNA COA, WITCH STATES USED BUY PUJOLS - NO OTHER PLAYER NAMES.

I HAVE 100% FEEDBACK AND AM A GOOD SELLER.

SORRY IF YOU DO NOT LIKE MY BAT - YOU DO NOT NEED TO BUY.
ALSO I DID NOT MEAN TO AFFEND ANYONE BY LISTING MY BAT!
I WAS GOING TO KEEP THE BAT FOREVER, THE ONLY REASON I LISTED WAS THERE'S ANOTHER PSA/DNA "GAME USED" PUJOLS BAT ON E-BAY THAT REACHED 4,000.00+. WITHOUT FULL PSA/DNA GAME USED COA (which mine has.)

HECK, I WILL TAKE LESS THAN $2,000.00 FOR MINE :D

THANK EVERYONE FOR THE POSITIVE COMMENTS!
I THINK THERE WAS ONE, LOL

[bat_master]

Hi Everyone,

It really does look like a great bat and the provenance and PSA/DNA letter are all great. I'm just not sure that an experienced collector would shell out a couple thousand dollars for a bat that has "unattributed player use".

Don't get me wrong, I'd love to have a Pujols bat in my collection, but at this point I wouldn't spend more than a thousand on a bat like this. I would liken it to a 'team index bat' of a star player in that sure it is professional model bat they may have used but the use could also be explain as having been caused by a different player thus making the bat less desireable to the majority of collectors.

Still a nice bat.

Tim Byington
www.tjsportsmn.com (http://www.tjsportsmn.com)

[Jonathan]

Also Forgot To Add-

John Taube & Vince Malta Certified This Bat.
I Invited Them Both To Post In This Form, I Look Forward To Reading What They Have To Say!

O And You Gan Get A Free Copy Of Vince Malta's New Book By Subscribing For A Premium Membership To This Form!

Vince Malta Is One Of The Experts On This Form, Just Click On Experts Corner Above!!

Send Him Any Questions You Have!!

Thanks Again

[Jonathan]

the Psa/dna Coa Reads Used By Pujols!

[trsent]

Mr. Miracle, nice comment that I should make an offer on the bat. People like you who cannot have a debate are the reason people stop coming to this forum. If you wish to have a discussion with me, grow up or don't waste my time.

Did you ever think maybe this bat was used in a few games or at bats, but maybe it was also used in Batting Practice for many days before or afterwords?

I like the bat, it is genuine and has a great letter, if you don't want it don't poke at me because you don't like that I can debate a topic without being a complete ****

As usual. give the other side and someone has to be a complete jerk on this forum. Funny, I received an email from a big player in the hobby supporting my comments, but they wouldn't make their comments on this forum because people who are out of line have led them to only read this forum and not post here anymore. I wonder why?

[justinlm24]

geez, when I started this thread I was just looking for info....didn't mean to get everyone all upset. I myself am not saying the bat is a fake, it is a nice bat. But if I'm going to spend that kind of money for a pujols gamer I'd rather have one that shows his attributes on the bat. No one can say for sure how many at bats the bat saw, but the fact albert doesn't use heavy pine tar tells me this was used by a player(s) other than himself. Just not what I'm looking for personally, plus it has a crack and I tend to not buy cracked bats.

[mr.miracle]

Since when did batting practice equal game used. Batting practice does not equal game use at least to me. I too never had any intention of starting this debate to the degree that it did go. What I think is kind of funny here is that this issue was originally discussed several months ago when this bat was originally on ebay. At that time if anyone cares to reference the posts, Jeff Scott said with some degree of certainty that this bat was used in 5 total at bats by Pujols in 2005. I have never said that the bat was not used by Pujols or even suggested that it was not. I simply restated what was previously stated several months prior. All I am saying Joel is that since it was listed on ebay twice apparently the majority of collectors do not agree with your assessment. Given the current market for Albert Pujols game used bats, this bat is obviously not reaching those prices because I believe most collectors want a bat that has clearly been used by a player more than five times in a season. If anyone feels that they want this bat in their collection, and feel it is worth $2000, more power to them. I choose not to but that is totally up to them. Just like the World Baseball Classic black Sam of Pujols went tonight for $3600 which in the opinion of many highly respected Pujols collectors is way too high, but if anyone likes it that much, they have that freedom to spend the dough.

Justin originally asked if anyone knew anything about this bat. I responded to the request with the link from the original discussion and added my own correspondence with the seller. Nothing new has really been added to this discussion that was not previously talked about before so what everyone is getting some uptight about is beyond me. I think though that it is fair to say that with anything no matter what type of memorabilia, it does not matter if it comes with 10 LOA's, you need to do your homework. John Taube is a great guy and I am in no way disputing his reputation. He can go only on the information that he has at hand and in this case I choose to believe with a fair level of certainty the opinion of Jeff Scott as originally expressed in regard to this bat. I am hoping that this closes the discussion. Joel, I fail to see how making a comment that you should bid on the bat is out of line? You seem to like it and if you want it in your collection that is up to you. I don't care if you or anyone chooses to buy it as that is your business. I was simply suggesting that if you think the price is fair and you like the bat buy it. If you take offense to that, it is not my problem. The beauty of this forum is that anybody can have an opinion and that does not mean that anybody is necessarily right or wrong. What I like you may not and vice versa. I choose not to add this bat to my collection, if you do great.

Thanks
Brett

[trsent]

Brett, I never commented on the price of the bat being fair, I just believe the bat is genuine and some comments may hurt the seller's attempt to sell a legitimate item. No harm, no foul.

The old debate is best made about a pitcher who wears a jersey on his off day and he sits in the dugout and then gives the jersey to his buddy, is the jersey game used?

If you say no, then how could a manager or coaches jersey ever be considered game used?

Your view may be a bat used for 200 batting practice swings and five game at-bats may not be game used, but it is since it was used in a game.

End of story, this is a legitimate bat, but no one may ever know the whole story about if anyone other than the great Albert Pujols used it. Too bad he is hurt, it will hurt his memorabilia sales for a while.

[Birdbats]

Since my name has been used a couple times in this discussion, I just want to add my two cents. First of all, I never said Albert used this bat five times in 2005. Albert used a natural Rawlings bat in five plate appearances -- I have no idea if it was this bat or another natural Rawlings.

When Albert came to the plate in Pittsburgh swinging a Rawlings bat, I took notice because he hadn't done that in more than a year. The bat looked new. When he used a natural Rawlings a few days later and the game was over (after four more plate appearances), the bat still looked pretty fresh. As noted by someone else, I watch every Pujols at-bat and record which bat he uses -- and the use of the Rawlings bat definitely stands out. Albert didn't use a Rawlings bat again in 2005 (and hasn't since).

If someone was able to determine that Bill Steele delivered bats to Albert in Pittsburgh, that's good detective work. It certainly adds up since Albert used a Rawlings bat in Pittsburgh. But to say this is "the bat" Bill delivered and to say with certainty that "Albert used it" requires a leap of faith.

Back in February, I made three points -- Albert used Rawlings just five times; the pine tar pattern is much too heavy and uncharacteristic for Pujols; and Albert gives away many bats. I even have a story on my Web site (from the 7/23/05 Post-Dispatch) about Albert giving a Rawlings bat to Aramis Ramirez. Knowing those three things, I'd be skeptical of this bat, no matter who wrote the LOA. I'm sure John Taube is a nice guy who knows much more about game-used bats than I'll ever know. But, when it comes to Pujols and his use characteristics, I doubt John is watching every Pujols at bat and taking notes.

No doubt this is a legit Pujols pro-model game bat, and that alone makes it valuable to some degree. But to state with certainty that it was used by Albert, I believe, is off base. It's tough for any bat to look this used after five plate appearances, especially if Albert is the guy using it. The use and pine tar pattern are just not consistent with use by Albert.

Jeff
http://www.birdbats.com

[Jonathan]

HELLO JEFF,
I WOULD JUST LIKE TO HEAR YOU SAY IT IS "POSSIBLE" PUJOLS DID USE THIS BAT. IT IS POSSIBLE THE PSA/DNA IS CORRECT....
YES, THE TAR AND USE IS HEAVY - BUT THAT DOES NOT PROVE 100% PUJOLS NEVER USED THIS BAT, HE VERY WELL COULD HAVE.

AS MUCH AS I WOULD LIKE - NO ONE CAN PROVE 100% EITHER WAY ---- ALL I CAN SAY IS EXACTY WHAT IT IS, AND THATS HOW I LISTED 2005 GAME USED PSA/DNA PUJOLS BAT-

I LIKE MY BAT - IT IS ONE OF PUJOLS RARER BATS WITH PSA/DNA.

AND KNOWING IT "COULD BE" THE BAT YOU SAW HIM USE VS. PIRATES, IS VERY EXCITING TO ME. (if anyone has photo"s of that game please let me know!)

I NEVER TRIED TO DECIVE ANYONE OR DO ANYTHING WRONG I SENT SEVERAL PHOTOS TO ANYONE WHO ASKED. AND ANSWERED ALL QUESTIONS TO THE BEST OF MY ABILITY.

PSA/DNA IS EXCEPTED BY ALL MAJOR AUCTION HOUSE'S AND IS WIDLY THOUGHT OF AS THE LEADER IN GAME USED CERTIFACATION - WITCH IS GOOD ENOUGH FOR ME.

IF YOU DISAGREE WITH THE PSA/DNA, PLEASE DO NOT BUY!
BUT ALSO PLEASE DO NOT FIND A WEB FORM..... IN WITCH YOU CHOOSE TO START BADMOUTHING ME PERSONALY.

THANK YOU

[mr.miracle]

Jeff:

My sincere apologies as I misspoke here. You are right, you said that Albert used a natural Rawlings bat 5 times not necessarily this bat. I made it sound like it was this one period. I hope we can all just get along as this discussion has seemingly really raised everyone's blood pressure a few points. The bottom line, look at what we know to be true and make an informed decision based upon that info. If Mr. Jonathan the seller took offense to anything that I said or thought I was attacking him in any way, I apologize. I wanted to present what we know to be true as previously pointed out when this bat was auctioned several months ago. After that, it is obviously up to the potential buyer to decide if they want this or any item in their personal collection.

As a buyer of game used equipment, I always want a strong LOA or provence provided for my game used equipment. That being said, if I am looking at a gu Ripken jersey, whether or not it comes with LOA's from Grey Flannel, MEARS, PSA/DNA, Lampson, James Spence or anybody and everybody else, I am still going to do my homework and in this instance defer to experts on this very forum such as Howard, Mark, Dan, Andrew etc. Again, I am not saying that the LOA is no good, but sometimes, it is no good as we have all seen time and time again. With everyone wanting LOA's for everything, one must wonder if the companies that write them have the time and resources to fully investigate the background of every item they authenticate. That coupled with the fact that generally, authenticators are generalists not specialist in one specific area such as game used Ripken, McGwire etc., Mark, Dan, Howard etc. specialize in maybe a team collection or a particular player so their input is of far better insight and value to me into the details of a particular jersey of a player than perhaps the authenticators is. I know that these above mentioned forum members have saved me countless dollars that would have otherwise been wasted on phony or questionable items had I not asked and I am certainly greatful for that. A recent example is the Ripken jersey on UR auctions that has 3 or 4 LOA's which at this point are deemed essentially worthless due to the many flaws of this jersey as evidenced by several forum members. The bat may be real, it may not be it is up to the individual to decide. I would always like to have a PSA/DNA LOA from John Taube, however, I am still doing my homework on any item as should we all.

Thanks
Brett

[Birdbats]

Jonathan,

As I wrote back in February, with this particular bat, the only absolute fact is that it's a Pujols model from 2005. There is no way to know whether it was used in a major league game, a minor league game, a little league game or batting practice. There's no way of knowing whether it was used by Albert, Adam Dunn or Albert's neighbor's teenage son. Unless he came off the field and handed it to you, there's just no way to know.

I have no problem with you, Jonathan. I do have a problem with companies like PSA/DNA "blessing" items that don't measure up because lots of honest people, like you, put their trust in their LOAs. Brett is right on the mark when he says the authentication companies can't be experts in everything. As a result, many items get authenticated by these companies that niche collectors -- who have knowledge in specific areas -- would never recommend. That's the case here. The bat matches all the specs that PSA/DNA has access to... but it isn't consistent with the usage characteristics that Pujols collectors recognize.

With any authentication, you're playing the odds -- what are the odds that a particular piece was used by a particular player? Pujols used a natural Rawlings in five of 700 plate appearances, so the odds start pretty low. Add to that the heavy use and thick pine tar -- neither of which are characteristic of Albert -- and the odds lessen. And while it's great to say, "the Rawlings rep delivered this bat to Albert," it's actually pretty meaningless because players have bats given to them by bat company reps all the time. Every rep wants a famous player like Albert to use their product on television. In Albert's case, most of these bats are given away to friends and other players, and sometimes are used by them (see the "Preston Wilson using a Pujols bat" thread on the GU memorabilia board).

Your Pujols bat is a legit game bat, and it certainly has value. With perfect, signed Pujols gamers selling for as much as $4,000 and unsigned gamers selling for about $3,000, any Pujols bat is worth a lot of money. Many people would be thrilled to have your bat in their collections. What some people are taking issue with is whether it was actually used by Pujols. I believe their concerns are valid, no matter what the LOA says.

There's always the chance that Pujols did use your bat. To say there is "zero chance" would be as misguided as saying that he absolutely did use it. But, the odds are rather slim.

Jeff
http://www.birdbats.com

[Jonathan]

HEAR IS WHAT JOHN TAUBE OF PSA/DNA HAD TO SAY!!

The bat you own is 100% authentic. Don't worry about the comments on the forum. People draw conclusions because the bat is not a familiar model for Pujols. I had questions myself which initiated the call to Bill Steele. Bill related to me the information in the LOA. FYI.....bat manufacturers are frequently sending players models to try, in the hopes that they like them and will start buying bats from the company. This is the case with your bat. Here Bill Steele actually hand delivered the bats to Albert. Obviously, Rawlings would love to have Pujols endorsing their bats. Of course there is a grey area as to when Pujols used the bat. But keeping in mind the bat was hand delivered and then modified, it is apparent the bat was given consideration.

If anyone from the forum would like to call me to discuss the bat, I would be happy to answer any questions.

Thank You,
John

[Jonathan]

I Know Psa/dna - They Are The Best In The Biz!!
Most The Items I Have Are Psa/dna Authentic.

Birdbats, I Really Do Not Know You. None Of My Collecting Buddies Have Heard Of You. Do Not Get Me Wrong You Might Know Some Suff, But I Think I Will Stick With The Psa/dna Experts On This One. They Have Fully Examined This Bat first Person, And Have Even Done Some "detective Work" To Ensure This Bat Was Real! - You Even Admit It's Posible Pujols Used It. The Dates You Gave Me Match Perfectly With The
Provenance.....

if Anyone Out There Does Not Like My Bat, That Fine.
but It Is A Game Used Pujols Psa/dna Crtified Bat.

If Vince Malta & John Taube (psa/dna) Tell Me Its Real And Game Used By Pujols........................i Trust Them!:)

[otismalibu]

Do Not Get Me Wrong You Might Know Some Stuff, But I Think I Will Stick With The Psa/dna Experts On This One.

And there you have it. The power of paper. Fiat currency.

I don't collect bats. If I did, and was in the market for a Pujols, I'd most likely trust the opinion of Birdbats above most others. He documents every at bat!

That's why the big name dealers (the ones trsent always mentions) hate this site. There are "niche collectors" who have more knowledge than they do on certain items. That's just a simple fact...not bashing.

How 'bout the fellow on the old board who posted the article about the Redskins jerseys? I think he "might know some stuff" too.

Greg

[Eric]

Jonathan-

If you don't know birdbats, you should get to know him. He has done exhaustive bat research about the Cardinals, Albert Pujols and many other topics listed for free on his website www.birdbats.com (http://www.birdbats.com)

He contributes great information to the forum and to the hobby.

Eric

[Jonathan]

i Am Sure Psa/dna Is More Than Paper.....

Did You Say You Collect??, Heard Of Psa/dna??

I Just Really Do Not Really Know Birdbats, And It Would Be Rude To Say They Know Nothing... Im Sure They Know "some Stuff"??

psa/dna Is "known" Worldwide!
and, I Just Trust Them.

allthough There Seems To Be Alot Of People On This Form That Do Not Trust Psa/dna............ is There A Reason Why Some People Seem To Hate Psa/dna??

[Jonathan]

everyone Has Heard Of John Taube & Vince Malta Right??

you Get A Copy Vince Malta's New Book If You Subscribe To This Form! - He Certified My Bat -

I Asked Him To Post, And Await The Read.

[trsent]

...and it is how issues and discussions such as this one have flowed that people do not return to the forum.

A dealer/collector has an item with a letter that they consider good, and the forum has other views. It is tough for all because most collectors and dealers believe if they have authentication from a major (PSA/DNA, MEARS, Grey Flannel, etc.) player then their item is legitimate.

The general views of this forum in that a letter as such is just a piece of paper and generally worthless. Though the 3rd party authenticators may make mistakes, there appears to be no issues with this bat other than that it may have been used for minimal game at-bats by Albert and another teammate may have used it afterwords.

I feel sorry for Jonathan, a new user to this forum who already has a bad taste in his mouth, and his item appears legitimate!

[bat_master]

Hey everyone,

I'm not looking to bash anyone and that includes PSA/DNA and the bat's owner, Jonathan. First and foremost I'm not an expert and don't claim to be.

However, a PSA/DNA or any other company's COA should not be considered the "Wonka Golden Ticket" and isn't ever the end-all be-all of collecting especially when there are cases like this one where other circumstances should be considered.

As Joel said in his last post "Though the 3rd party authenticators may make mistakes, there appears to be no issues with this bat other than that it may have been used for minimal game at-bats by Albert and another teammate may have used it afterwords."

I couldn't have said that better myself. I don't have any issues with this bat at all. Is it an Albert Pujols game used bat? I would say definitely. But can all of that use be attributed to Albert? Likely not, though no one can say for certain.

It seems to me as an outsider looking in that Jonathan has put so much stock into the COA that he is not willing to consider any other opinion or input on this bat or acknowledge that some (or most) of the use on this bat could be attributed to a player other than Albert Pujols.

Just my two and a half cents

Tim Byington
www.tjsportsmn.com (http://www.tjsportsmn.com)

[allstarsplus]

Hey everyone, I'm not looking to bash anyone and that includes PSA/DNA and the bat's owner, Jonathan. First and foremost I'm not an expert and don't claim to be. However, a PSA/DNA or any other company's COA should not be considered the "Wonka Golden Ticket" and isn't ever the end-all be-all of collecting especially when there are cases like this one where other circumstances should be considered.
As Joel said in his last post "Though the 3rd party authenticators may make mistakes, there appears to be no issues with this bat other than that it may have been used for minimal game at-bats by Albert and another teammate may have used it afterwords."
I couldn't have said that better myself. I don't have any issues with this bat at all. Is it an Albert Pujols game used bat? I would say definitely. But can all of that use be attributed to Albert? Likely not, though no one can say for certain. It seems to me as an outsider looking in that Jonathan has put so much stock into the COA that he is not willing to consider any other opinion or input on this bat or acknowledge that some (or most) of the use on this bat could be attributed to a player other than Albert Pujols. Just my two and a half cents

Tim Byington
www.tjsportsmn.com (http://www.tjsportsmn.com)

Tim summed it up well. I think the bat in question appears to be the same bat that sold for $840 about 4 months ago.

http://cgi.ebay.com/Albert-Pujols-Game-Used-Bat_W0QQitemZ8760181037QQcategoryZ60596QQssPageNam eZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

The Pujols market has definitely gotten hotter since the season started so I think Jonathan has a marketable bat certainly above that amount from 4 months ago.

As always, thanks to Jeff at Birdbats for his great research!

[Jonathan]

Hello,
I Just Would Like To Say I Do "consider" Everyone's Opinions On The Bat. It Has Been Interesting Reading The Many Posts, And The Many "opinions" On My Bat. I Never Claimed To Be A Bat Expert. I Am Just A Collector, Who Trusts The Psa/dna Letter I Have To Go With The Bat. When I List The Bat Again - I Am Not Going The Say "could Have Been Used By Some Unknown Other Player, In The Listing." Or Used By Pujols 5 Times Someone Else 250 Times! As I Have No Proof Of Any Of That. I Only Saw A Pujols Game Used Psa/dna Bat With Bids Up To $4,000.00+, So I Thought I Would List Mine For $2,000.00. When I See A Pujols Bat Selling For $10,000, I Will List Mine For $5,000- Maybe Then I Will Get A Bid!!

I Would Like To Thank All The "nice" Post's!
I Am Amassed By All The Views- Says Somthing About Pujols!
Hope He Gets Off The Dl Soon------------------

[bat_master]

Hi Everyone,

Jonathan's last post about the relisting the bat really got me thinking and I'm hoping we can avoid anyone calling a relisting "deception by omission" if he doesn't disclose that the majority of the use could have been caused by a player other than Albert.

I think the majority of us would agree that this bat is a genuine Albert Pujols game used bat, thus making the LOA correct as issued for this item. Seems like this would almost fall into a "gray area" in which the use is unproven as having been caused by any specific player and the LOA should almost have an asterisk attached to it. But should it? The LOA calls it a Game Used Albert Pujols bat...exactly what the buyer is getting!

Joe Collector is not going to have access to the wealth of information we have and likely would also not have made note of every Albert Pujols at bat. Does anyone else know of any other player in the major leagues from any era in which the bat used in every at-bat all season are kept track of? I can't think of a single player which from a collector's standpoint makes Albert Pujols a very unique player.

If we didn't have that knowledge and thus did not suspect that this bat could only have been used in minimal at-bats by Pujols and many by another player would we then have taken issue with this bat? I highly doubt it.

To summarize, the members of this forum have a great many resources at our disposal and it is up to us to do everything in our power to be responsible and knowledgeable collectors (and sellers).

When Jonathan relists this bat the buyer will be getting a nice game used Albert Pujols bat with a PSA/DNA letter. Joe Collector will be happy...even though the other 10% of the collecting community that has additional knowledge may take issue with it. In general, its a nice bat that simply may not sell for as high as what is desired.

Tim Byington
www.tjsportsmn.com (http://www.tjsportsmn.com)

[Birdbats]

Tim,

I think there's a fine line here. It certainly is an Albert Pujols pro model game bat. It certainly shows game use. But, I think saying it is an "Albert Pujols game-used bat" suggests to most people it was used by Albert. There's no proof Albert used this bat before someone else, if at all. All we know is that, in its present state, it shows much more use and pine tar than one would expect on a bat used by Albert. For that reason, I think the LOA may be misleading.

I had a conversation once with a well-known bat authenticator regarding Mark McGwire bats. I asked why he wrote LOAs on bats that clearly did not exhibit the desired usage traits of McGwire's Cardinals-era bats. He pointed out that he was careful to word his LOAs in such a way that he never said the bats were used by McGwire... only that they were McGwire bats and they showed game use. It's a fine line, but it's worth noting.

You also ask whether anyone would even take issue with this bat if not for the knowledge that he used Rawlings bats in just five plate appearances last season. I would hope that before anyone invests hundreds or thousands of dollars in a Pujols bat that they'd at least know he rarely uses Rawlings, he doesn't use a heavy coat of pine tar, he typically doesn't use bats to this extreme and he often gives bats to other players.

There's one other thing that bothers me about this bat that nobody has brought up. In the PSA/DNA letter, it says, "Additionally, the bat's barrel end has been cupped after Pujols received the bat. We say this because the lathe mark is still very visible in the knob." This modification, according to the letter, is the reason the authenticator contacted Rawlings. It was discovered during that conversation that the Rawlings rep delivered bats to Albert in Pittsburgh. I read that and ask myself, "If I'm from Rawlings and I'm trying to get Albert's business -- knowing that he uses I13L cupped bats -- why would I give him a bat that doesn't meet his specs?" I also ask myself, "If I'm Albert Pujols and I can get a shipment of any bat I want any time I want, why would I go to all of the trouble of having this bat put on a lathe and cupped?"

I hope these are the types of questions all collectors ask themselves, regardless of whether they have access to this site or to other helpful sources of hobby information.

Jeff
http://www.birdbats.com