Authentcity Question For CollegeJersey.com [Archive]

gamehawk

06-12-2006, 04:30 PM

After many years of collecting game worn jerseys/memorabilia, I have never before come across a potential transaction like this.

I emailed CollegeJerseys.com about a Brett Elliott 2002 "Game Worn" Utah Utes Jersey. I wanted to know about the type of use as I am looking to purchase my first game worn Football jersey. All of my many gamers are NHL/NBA and bought from Meigray or NHL-MGG Program. I was responded to by Brenda, who said: "The Brett Elliott shows NO Game Wear whatsover, and is in "Absolute Pristine Condition." I emailed her back that maybe she should look twice at the gamer, as it may possibly be game issued since it is in such immaculate condition, and that they should change the description to Game/Team Issued. Her response was: "that is not necessarily accurate, because some schools actually launder the jerseys before we receive them." My response, was that is understandable because of the laundering process, however if your company has in fact deemed it "Game Worn" than something must have lead you to believe that! The Equipment Manager's "Word" cannot be enough. Most Equipment Managers couldn't care less if you sell an item as game worn or game issued. CollegeJerseys.com should have someone in house who looks over the jerseys BEFORE they are marketed one way or the other.

I also noted that at Meigray, you may actually pay a premium, but they are 100% that an item is Game Worn OR Game Issued. I implored her to send my email to her boss and get back to me. She also told me they could "whip up" an LOA to state that it is game used, since it does not come with a Team LOA. I explained to her that the LOA would be worthless, if the company itself is not sure if the product they are writing the LOA for, is game used or game issued.

My only other purchase outside of Meigray, has been through Radtke Sports for a pair of Mike Vick Practice Used Cleats. I will be getting them Thursday, and am very confident they are the real deal. Rick Radtke seems like he goes through great lengths to guarantee authenticity with his process....all except having Mike Vick call you on the phone.

trsent

06-12-2006, 05:06 PM

After many years of collecting game worn jerseys/memorabilia, I have never before come across a potential transaction like this.

I emailed CollegeJerseys.com about a Brett Elliott 2002 "Game Worn" Utah Utes Jersey. I wanted to know about the type of use as I am looking to purchase my first game worn Football jersey. All of my many gamers are NHL/NBA and bought from Meigray or NHL-MGG Program. I was responded to by Brenda, who said: "The Brett Elliott shows NO Game Wear whatsover, and is in "Absolute Pristine Condition." I emailed her back that maybe she should look twice at the gamer, as it may possibly be game issued since it is in such immaculate condition, and that they should change the description to Game/Team Issued. Her response was: "that is not necessarily accurate, because some schools actually launder the jerseys before we receive them." My response, was that is understandable because of the laundering process, however if your company has in fact deemed it "Game Worn" than something must have lead you to believe that! The Equipment Manager's "Word" cannot be enough. Most Equipment Managers couldn't care less if you sell an item as game worn or game issued. CollegeJerseys.com should have someone in house who looks over the jerseys BEFORE they are marketed one way or the other.

I also noted that at Meigray, you may actually pay a premium, but they are 100% that an item is Game Worn OR Game Issued. I implored her to send my email to her boss and get back to me. She also told me they could "whip up" an LOA to state that it is game used, since it does not come with a Team LOA. I explained to her that the LOA would be worthless, if the company itself is not sure if the product they are writing the LOA for, is game used or game issued.

Let me see if I understand your issues with collegejersey.com -

You want them not to accept the word of the team's equipment manager that an item is game used?

I am sorry, if that is what they have to go on then that is their background, which sounds pretty good to me.

As some guy out East on this forum always says, "Do your homework". I say if you don't like what you turn up, then don't buy the item, but don't come on here giving them a bad rap because you want a better history of a item because you don't like the excuse that the equipment manager told them their jersey is game used - That is just not fair in what is already a tough industry.

gamehawk

06-12-2006, 05:28 PM

trsent

06-12-2006, 06:39 PM

Joel,
You are telling me, that as a dealer of game worn items, you go 100% off of the equipment managers word and do no homework yourself for the sake of your customers and the item! Look at all the b.s. coming from Historic Auctions etc... They have no idea what they are doing, there are so many questions with there items! A tough industry is quite hard on the customer as well, and I am only telling them to double check the item before they sell it.

How about this Joel: The equipment manager says he is sending in 75 or so game worn jerseys from the Utes etc... Should Collegegamejerseys simply not look at them and sell them as game used just because the equipment manager says so? Through the NHL-MGG Program, jerseys must come in from the equipment managers, but even with inventory serial numbers etc.., Meigray still goes through an authentication process just to be sure BEFORE they send out paperwork saying it is Game Worn.

And my "bad rapping" on collegegamejersey is only because the owner Scot Kent will not respond. He is detailed on this exact forum under dealers as "Knowing his entire Inventory." I think he should be able to look at a jersey when a customer brings it to his attention that it may be game issued and not game used, that he would want to inspect it before sending it out the doors to a customer with his companies LOA.

I do my homework Joel, but is it so much to ask a dealer to double check a "Game Worn Jersey" after I get an email from the dealer saying it is in "Pristine Condition with No Game Wear whatsoever...." Think again Joel.

My points are based on what you told us in your first post.

Basically you told us the jersey doesn't show wear, but were told the jersey could have been washed. That is a common practice to wash a jersey after a game. You then were told the equipment manager told them it was game used.

What else can they go by? If there was an issue with the tagging or size I could see your point, but they can only go by what they are told from the school where they purchased the item.

I am sorry the owner of the company has not responded to you personally, but I feel the argument you have provided doesn't entitle your thread to be titled: "Authentcity Problem with CollegeJersey.com" because I do not see any problem with the authenticity of the item you are discussing.

Hopefully the owner of the company contacts you and you work out your issues and all finishes well.

gamehawk

06-12-2006, 07:40 PM

Joel,

How is this thread not about authenticity??? They are selling an item that they say is game worn, but in fact describe it to me when I inquire about it, as "Pristine Condition with no signs of game wear" ??? Then they "Guess" it could have been washed? What are you smoking Joel?

Again, I cannot say this enough. Whether the equipment manager told them it was game used or not, they as a dealer need to be 100% it is game used BEFORE they sell it as game used. If there is question, they should pull it off the site as game worn until they can be sure it is just that. What ever happened to the Dealer doing some research on an item before they sell it?? Brenda and the people at the company have no idea and are sending me emails with "What If" and "Maybe." I have never received a maybe or what if email on a game worn item from Meigray!

I have seen many game items, such as from Milt @ Byrons, that come to him as Game Worn, but he inspects them and writes his very own letter that the specific item is Game Issued in his opinion. The issue here they told me it shows no wear but they still deem it game used??? How does that work. They are also telling me it COULD have been washed? What kind of company cannot tell these little things apart! They need to contact whoever there source maybe and find out what is going on with it! It is up to the company, if they are reputable, to work out any problems to an item before they sell it. OR AT THE VERY LEAST, put it up with an asterik that an item maybe game worn but is most likely game issued. They are a supposed reputable company, and a Featured Dealer here....

trsent

06-12-2006, 08:14 PM

I understand your frustration and I looked at the jersey you are talking about on their web site and it looks awfully new (which is just a sign of possible washing or even wearing on the bench for a game but not playing or minimal play) , but they are stating it was used based on information provided from the school, so I do not know what you expect them to do.

I smoke cigars if you care, about 3-7 based on the day and I can tell you that you calling out a company on this forum because a $199.00 jersey that you are interested in doesn't show enough wear for your taste just doesn't do it for me.

Not a big deal to me, I was just confused why after talking to "Brenda" you were now confused yourself. If you felt her answers not to be of help, then you should have asked to speak to someone else within their company.

You keep kissing Meigray's rear in this debate, because they tell you for sure an item is game used. I do not believe from your posts that you were told the jersey you are interested in is maybe not game used. Sorry if I misunderstood this, but I assume you are assuming otherwise because you didn't like Brenda's answers.

Let's put an end to the debate until you talk more to them over there, because I know you are not calling them out thinking they are intentionally selling this $199.00 jersey as game used to intentionally deceive you or the public.

gamehawk

06-12-2006, 08:55 PM

Sorry if Meigray is what actually defines the standard of the industry as oppose to the people who claim that title were blasted on the Peoples Court. Another dealer who is to good to be true....

Feel free to turn on the NHL Stanley Cup Joel, and know that if you pre-ordered an Oilers Game Worn Jersey, that you can WATCH IT LIVE. Or A Dallas Mav's/Miami Heat game where you can watch the Mav's play in a jersey that in a few weeks, could be in your collection...Yeah Joel, that is just Meigray "Telling" me a jersey is real....

In the aspect of Brenda, I have basically quoted her word for word. I asked to speak to a higher up, but still no reply. And her exact words were "Pristine Condition, with NO signs of game wear" and We can "Whip Up" an LOA??? Do I need to have a lawyer give me a deposition for you to believe that was said? I thought this forum was used for when you have problems with a company, especially a Featured Dealer.. They seem a little shady if you ask me....Or is it more shady that you have dinner with the head of auction companies who seem to be the top of alot of people's Sh#t list for peddling "QUESTIONABLE" memorabilia. Is that how you do business Mr. Brown....I mean Mr. Joel.....

I guess I will kiss Meigray's rear, if it means that when I just recently shelled out $2K for a Martin St. Louis Jersey, I have a cute little photo-match right next to the display case it hangs in, so I do not have to explain to people who see it that " It came from a company who knows the equipment Manager's brother in law that swears it to be 100% authentic.....

Our debate has opened my eyes to run back to the safe wing of Meigray, because of crap like this. I inquire about a simple $199 "Game Used" jersey so I can have my first NCAA gamer, and it turns out to be Custard's Last Stand. Also, by the sound of your posts, you seem to keep knocking that it is $199. In your book, does that make it o.k. for a company to not be 100% that an item they sale as game worn may not be that. Please let me know if you want a copy of lovely Brenda's "Contradicting Emails" [comment removed]

Have a nice night..

trsent

06-12-2006, 09:04 PM

I stopped reading after your second paragraph.

Get over it, this company is not trying to intentionally rip you off from the story you have told. When you wish to grow up and have a debate I'm game but I hate it when people can't debate without getting silly because they have someone disagree with them.

So, you are not buying the $199.00 jersey, huh? Don't shop with collegejersey.com and shop only with Meigray, good for you!

gamehawk

06-12-2006, 09:22 PM

collegejersey.com

06-12-2006, 10:01 PM

Hi Everyone,

I wanted to respond to this thread because the authenticity of our products and our character is being called into question. As I read the further posts/responses, frankly, I believe they are getting off point and therefore I won't dignify them with a response. I will reserve my comments for the initial post.

POINT ONE - "if your company has in fact deemed it "Game Worn" than something must have lead you to believe that!

RESPONSE - www.collegejersey.com (http://www.collegejersey.com) has clearly defined terms on our glossary page here –

http://www.collegejersey.com/store/glossary.asp

This page has been live and unchanged for over three years. If you read OUR definition of Game Worn Jersey it reads, "is a jersey worn during an official game by a player on the roster in attendance at the game". If a jersey on our site is marked as "game worn" it is because it was worn by a player in attendance at an NCAA game while in uniform. We confirm this fact through our process of acquiring the jerseys or other items. We work with over 100 schools and go through this same process with each.

Please note, our definition does not say anything about the player seeing action in the game. Therefore, according to our definition, a jersey is game worn even if it stays on the sideline. Further, it is possible for a jersey to be in "pristine condition" and Game Worn according to our definition. Reasonable people may disagree with this point, which I think is legitimate discussion, and I am happy to have it in this forum, however to go on to claim that we are attempting to deceive because you don't understand or agree with this definition is simply not a fair-minded comment.

POINT TWO - The Equipment Manager's "Word" cannot be enough. Most Equipment Managers couldn't care less if you sell an item as game worn or game issued.

RESPONSE - The equipment managers "word" is one facet of our authentication of our jerseys. We believe it is an important part, but not the only one. We go through an inventory process to look at the jerseys, pants, etc. and discuss the items with other members of the given school when the items are acquired. This would include players, coaches, and other administration. As far as your blanket statement about what "most equipment managers" care about, frankly, is a little bit silly.

Equipment managers, like any other group of people, differ from person to person and vary in their approach to their job. In my personal experience, the majority of the equipment managers I know are hard working, professional and have a strong attention to detail. Based on that, and based on the fact that they actually "manage" the equipment, I think they are in a very strong position to provide input to our authentication process. We certainly do take into consideration the individual Equipment. Managers input with each group of jerseys and weigh their comments accordingly.

PONT THREE - CollegeJerseys.com should have someone in house who looks over the jerseys BEFORE they are marketed one way or the other.

RESPONSE - We have s system in place to authenticate EVERY jersey which comes through our doors. We appreciate your input that we should have "someone" in house who looks over the jerseys; we actually have three people who contribute. These people have over 15 years of combined experience working with GAME USED college equipment. We have a well defined process and we stand by it. Each item is specifically marked as Game Worn or Team Issued. As per my point above, both of these terms are defined on our glossary page.

In closing I would like to say that we always like to give the benefit of the doubt to other parties relative to any disagreements or questions which arise. In this case, I don’t belive the poster has extended the same courtesy us. Because of this belief, I will not post any follow up comments.

If anyone would like to discuss this further via email or phone please feel free to contact me directly and I would be happy to go into further detail about our processes.

Thanks,
Scott

Scott O. Kent
President

www.collegejersey.com (http://www.gameuseduniverse.com/vb_forum/www.collegejersey.com)
Game Used Jerseys and More...
Get the real deal.
11965 SW 142nd Terrace
Suite 109
Miami, FL 33186

877.251.GAME | Toll-Free
305.774.6601 | Local
305.774.6603 | Fax
scott@collegejersey.com | Email

Nathan

06-12-2006, 11:36 PM

I can't believe there is actually a thread for this....no way in hell.

Let's break it down to basic semantics. When I was a senior in high school, I dressed for every game and participated in warmups. Every game that I played in was a home game, while I never got into a road game. Is my white jersey game-worn or not? After all, I wore it during a game that I stood a chance of participating in.

My advice is to go ahead and find every copy of Utah's 2002 season in which they wore white jerseys, then try to pinpoint exactly how many plays Brett Elliott participated in. If the answer is "one play or more", then this fits the bill of being game worn no matter who you're talking to. Or just check out the link below so you don't have to go through the trouble of, you know, actually doing research before coming on here and blasting a very reputable company over an issue of semantics.

http://web1.ncaa.org/d1mfb/playerDetail.jsp?yr=2002&org=732&player=3A

I count 133 offensive plays on the road, with 9 of them being rushes. Now, if you want to look at all that film to see exactly what kind of impact was made then be my guest.

gamehawk

06-12-2006, 11:51 PM

Scott,

I made every attempt to contact you through Brenda. I even sent you 3 emails that went unanswered before this all happened. It is funny that you choose to respond on the forum instead of emailing me in private, as I tried to do to you unsuccessfully. Brenda and I went back in fourth quite a few times, and when she stopped responding to my SIMPLE questions, that is when I thought I would bring this issue into the forum.

[comment removed], but if a jersey is as clean as your employee said it was, most likely you made a mistake and issued it as game worn, when in fact it is team issued. You are to far into this now to admit your mistake, that is obvious.

And if you think that putting so much faith into the equipment managers at the collegiate level is a good thing, than you really need to take a second look at the jerseys. Most equipment managers are college students and are not the best at sorting through the number of football jerseys that pass through them. Game Worn, Game Issued, they really couldn't care less and you know it. Look at all the problems with the Reggie Bush on AMI Auctions as we speak....and The Matt Leinart and Landale White on Historic Auctions.....

If Brenda would have simply emailed me back that she would have someone take a second look at the jersey in question, this whole thing would have been avoided. Sometimes dealers are wrong and need to just deal with it. That Brett Elliott gamer is way to clean to be game worn, and should be changed to Game/Team Issued. If you see no signs of ACTUAL Game Use, not even A HINT of game use, than how can you deem it Game Used??? I know, you just guess that it was worn on the bench.

As people have stated in the past, "An LOA does not make an item real, the item itself does.." Your process of authenticating is weak, and that is what will put you with the above named dealers who everyone thought was so divine. Grey Flannel gave a nice black eye to the hobby, and so did Ron @ Cal Sports Inv. with his shill bidding. Elite Sports and the Hines Ward Shoes....That is classic...."We got it right from the locker room." That really goes to show what equipment managers/ "Impeccable Sources" can do.

And as for people who keep bashing Meigray, Your authentication process is just like the rest, and that is why you will never be anywhere close to there level. "3 people panel who look at every jersey etc..." Lou Lampson is one of the biggest crooks alive, and he does the same process you do?

[comment removed] I would highly suggest that you at least look closer at the Brett Elliott and share with the forum that you made the right decision to change it to game issued, from game worn.

[comment removed]

Nathan

06-13-2006, 12:03 AM

gamehawk,

So, since you've judged this jersey to be "too clean to be worn", you actually ordered this and saw what it looked like up close and personal?

gamehawk

06-13-2006, 12:03 AM

Also here is a nice email I just got from a Forum Member!

:p

"I found your story interesting. I have around 10 game used College football jerseys that I was going to send to them. I looked on there website and I noticed that they can take a jersey and "customize" it for you for fee. I think they are overpriced and some are not game worns. But they probably don't care as they are the only website that has that type of inventory."

gamehawk

06-13-2006, 12:07 AM

Nate,

You have to keep an open mind on this. Scott is not telling you about the email his employee sent me on "How the jersey shows absolutely no game wear whatsoever, and is in pristine condition.." Then back peddles on it "COULD HAVE" been this or that....Pure speculation.

Also, look at the email below that I just received. It raises a good point on how the company specializes in custom nameplates. [comment removed]

Nathan

06-13-2006, 12:19 AM

gamehawk,

Since you state that you've been collecting for a number of years, then you're quite aware of the telltale signs that are left behind when a nameplate (or numbers) is added, removed, altered, reapplied, rescreen/resewn, etc. It's actually a lot easier to mess around doing number and name changes on older jerseys (pre-1975) than newer ones. Even then there is plenty of evidence to go around.

But as Scott and Joel pointed out, I hardly think it's fair to start something with a sensational title that would suggest that collegejersey.com sells bad items when there has yet to be that first shred of proof or even a reasonable doubt.

But as long as we're discussing semantics further, let me explain a jersey I acquired from the NHL-MGG program. I'll go through the situation and you tell me what it's classified as.

A jersey was made up in the preseason for a goaltender (let's call him "Goalie #1"). He played in the preseason and was sent down to the AHL before the regular season started. As it happened, the starting goaltender for the NHL team got injured and Goalie #1 was recalled. The jersey had been kept on hand in case of an emergency callup and was reissued for the duration of the callup. Goalie #1 dressed for 9 games and appeared on the active roster, but he never saw the ice during the course of the game. He did participate in pregame warmups though, and there is visible wear that allowed me to achieve a photomatch to numerous cards. Now....what is this jersey officially classified as?

Scott,

If it strikes your fancy, feel free to ship the jersey to me and I (an unbiased collector with equipment room experience) will take a look at it and let everyone know what my opinion on the matter is.

Mike Grueber

06-13-2006, 06:19 AM

Scott,

If a jersey could be in pristine condition and still be considered game-worn according to your definition, what authenticiation process do you use to determine if jerseys in pristine condition are game-worn or game-issued?

Mike Grueber

collegejersey.com

06-13-2006, 07:07 AM

Mike,

Thanks for your post.

As I mentioned in my earlier post, our definition of “Game-Worn” is:

“A jersey worn during an official game by a player on the roster in attendance at the game.”

As I mentioned earlier, this does not say that they have to be in game action. Therefore, it follows that a game worn jersey can be in “pristine condition”.

As I further acknowledged, reasonable people may differ on their agreement with this definition. However, it is my belief that as long as we clearly state our terms, which we have posted on our glossary page, we have done our part in this regard and leave it up to the consumer to decide.

As far as the process we use to authenticate a jersey or other item, it depends on how we acquired the item in the first place. For the purposes of simplicity, there are two basic ways we acquire jerseys. First, in bulk directly from the schools. Second, in small numbers from collectors or other third parties.

I will begin with the small lots. If we acquire a jersey from a third party collector, we go through several steps in order to authenticate it. First, we speak with the seller via email or on the phone and gather as much detailed information about how they acquired the item and what they know about is history. Next, we overlay that information against our database of over 20,000 college game worn items. We check things like the style, patching, fabric, condition, manufacturer, etc. that was used by a school for a given time period. Third, once we get the item in house, we do a visual inspection and cross check it against our current physical inventory. Fourth, we photo match the jersey against one of our pictures of sold items or use one of several outside professional sports photography sources. If we are unable to confirm the authenticity of the item via any of these criteria, then we do not accept it and return it to the seller. If we can match the jersey, then obviously we designate it accordingly.

If the jersey was acquired in bulk from a school, we go through the following steps (not necessarily in this order as each school differs). We take the stock in house and do our own inventory. We catalog details about every item including cut, color, condition, size, etc.

Once we have our own independent inventory, we set up a meeting with the school and gather general & detailed information about the purchase lot including the year period(s) the items were used and the process that the schools uses to manage the items when they were being used. We determine information like, do the schools rotate jerseys? How many jerseys does the school use in this rotation through the course of the year? Who does the repairs on a jersey? When are they done? What is the process for laundering? Schools vary greatly in their approaches, so it is key to understand these details. As a side note, it is the equipment managers who typically define these processes, so that is why they are important in the authentication process.

Next, we reference our in house resources including our current inventory, photo inventory of sold items, media guides, roster lists, etc. Then based on all of this information, we designate each piece as game worn or team issued according to the definition that is posted on our glossary page. If the jersey was worn on the field by a player on the roster in attendance at a game, it is deemed game worn.

Let me know if you have any further questions and/or if I can clarify anything further.

Thanks,
Scott

Scott O. Kent
President

www.collegejersey.com (http://www.gameuseduniverse.com/vb_forum/www.collegejersey.com)
Game Used Jerseys and More...
Get the real deal.
11965 SW 142nd Terrace
Suite 109
Miami, FL 33186

877.251.GAME | Toll-Free
305.774.6601 | Local
305.774.6603 | Fax
scott@collegejersey.com | Email

06-13-2006, 08:21 AM

Scott, I think you know the answer to your own question, at least you should if you bought the jersy from Barry at Meigray. I will let Barry chime in with the exact name he puts on a jersey like this, but it lies between game issued and game worn. It sells for more then a game issued and less then a game worn on the ice.

CollectGU

06-13-2006, 08:43 AM

Scott,

Look at all the problems with the Reggie Bush on AMI Auctions as we speak....and The Matt Leinart and Landale White on Historic Auctions.....

."

This has nothing to do with this post at all, but is one of the reasons why this forum sometimes annoys me. The Bush jersey (i will be bidding on it) in the AMI auction has been photo matched , not style matched, and is easily one of the nicest unwashed condition jerseys I've seen. And yet, the perception is there is a problem with it because peeople on the forum questioned the jersey BEFORE they put the photo match up, and also questioned the signature which PSA authenticated...If you are going to go through all that trouble to fake a jersey, why add a signature that if deemed fake ruins the whole jersey.....

gamehawk

06-13-2006, 10:08 AM

Nathan - "Reasonable Doubt" I did not just pull this out of thin air pal....One more time for you... Brenda's responses when describing the use were contradicting when stating that it is in such perfect condition, yet they are so sure it is game worn. She could, and Scott has yet to give ONE SINGLE ACTUAL CHARACTERISTIC That the Brett Elliott Utes jersey is in fact worn! Every response on this forum from Scott is about Jerseys in General [comment removed] and not the specific Elliott. Sending the jersey to you is probably a bad idea, because seeing your posts here already, we can see who your opinion lies with, which obviously would cloud judgement.

CollectGU- You only took out a snipet of my post re: The Bush Jersey. The problem with that, is two words: Lou Lampson. Do a search on him in other forums and through search engines and see what people write about him. if it has a Lampson 100% Authentic LOA stay far, far away from it. I caught AMI last year trying to peddle a fake Iverson without the Black Wilt Chamberlain ArmBand. They chalked it up to "Lou Lampson having a bad night." Well that is funny, when someone spends even $1K on a "Game Worn" Jersey from Lampson/100% Authentic, it would be just lovely to get the jersey and find out that Lampson did his LOA on a game issued jersey, claiming it was game worn. Every jersey that an NBA player wore on the court that year had a Black Arm Patch. You would think that Lampson and his panel of 3 would have noticed that....Also, PSA only cares about the auto. I have read about times when they have authenticated a real auto on a fake gamer. Enjoy the Bush! :rolleyes:

Northstarsfan1

06-13-2006, 10:24 AM

i also have a few game worn ncaa jerseys that i wanted to send in for inspection, yet i will be thinking twice. i once owned a jason kidd nets jersey that was in crisp condition. the seller i puchased it from on ebay, got it from grey flannel and it had there loa. when i received the jersey, i pointed out to the seller that it could be team issued and not worn in a game. he took the jersey back, sent it to grey flannel and after looking closer they deemed it team issued and gave him a refund on the different between a game worn and team issued jersey. just my two cents, but i think college jerseys should actually look twice at the jersey to see if they missed something. grey flannel did and they fixed it.

Allen Conway
acconway@msn.com

Mike Grueber

06-13-2006, 10:55 AM

Scott,

Thanks for your reply to my question. I feel comfortable with your authentication process. I was primarily interested in the authentication process involved in cases where you acquire a large number of jerseys from a given school and some of those jerseys are in pristine condition.

I would expect game-issued jerseys to be consistent with game-worn jerseys with repsect to tagging, numbering, lettering, customizations, etc., so I am glad to hear that you ask the school how many jerseys were produced for each player and the rotation pattern that they use. I believe that such information would allow you to make an informed decision as to whether a jersey in pristine condition was actually game-worn or game-issued.

Mike Grueber

CollectGU

06-13-2006, 11:05 AM

CollectGU- You only took out a snipet of my post re: The Bush Jersey. The problem with that, is two words: Lou Lampson. Do a search on him in other forums and through search engines and see what people write about him. if it has a Lampson 100% Authentic LOA stay far, far away from it. I caught AMI last year trying to peddle a fake Iverson without the Black Wilt Chamberlain ArmBand. They chalked it up to "Lou Lampson having a bad night." Well that is funny, when someone spends even $1K on a "Game Worn" Jersey from Lampson/100% Authentic, it would be just lovely to get the jersey and find out that Lampson did his LOA on a game issued jersey, claiming it was game worn. Every jersey that an NBA player wore on the court that year had a Black Arm Patch. You would think that Lampson and his panel of 3 would have noticed that....Also, PSA only cares about the auto. I have read about times when they have authenticated a real auto on a fake gamer. Enjoy the Bush! :rolleyes:

Because you don't like Lou Lampson's work, you are going to disregard that it is photomatched? That's pretty short sighted. The photo match (and any others that may be out there by doing you own homework..) is the strong evidence, who issued the LOA is secondary.....

gamehawk

06-13-2006, 11:16 AM

CollectGU

06-13-2006, 11:28 AM

Collect GU -I am simply saying that anything that has Lampson's LOA is something I stay away from because of first hand experience that I described beforehand. No matter what the circumstances are, Lampson does not cut it for me, and anything that has his LOA or signature I, and many people won't touch with a 50 foot pole.

It sounds like you rely too much on who the authentcator is and not the evidence presented....To each his own...This is way off the original topic of this thread anyway, and we'll agree to disagree on this.....

gamehawk

06-13-2006, 11:28 AM

I just noticed a post below telling of an experience with this topic. Second looks are essential, and if a company as big as Grey Flannel can go back and admit they made a mistake, then even a company the size of collegegamejersey can do the same. Keep in mind that there own employee could not find one tiny, spec of evidence to say that it was game worn. Like I described with Milt Byron, he is an expert, and if he can't see even one spot of evidence of wear, he will write it up as team issued. This jersey would be noted as just that to all notable authenticators.

Mike G. - I respect your opinion. However, it is a major decision when a jersey is borderline game worn/game issued. Part of what is wrong with the hobby today is these dealers/people come along and write up LOA's on jerseys that are not what they are claimed to be. I simply feel that this company does not have the expertise/credentials to FULLY determine that this Brett Elliott Gamer is game worn.

gamehawk

06-13-2006, 11:40 AM

CollectGU- Doing you homework is essential. We agree on that. I do my homework dilligently, however putting alot of trust into an authenticator like Meigray is not a bad thing at all. A collector can surf there site and not worry about an item being fake. People who dislike Meigray hate statements like that, but it is in fact true. If I am surfing Meigray and see a pair of NY Rangers skates from a certain player, I will jump and get them, merely because of there authentication process and Item Registration system. That is what puts them above the rest. If I saw the same skates with a Lampson LOA, a Cal Sports LOA, a Grey Flannel LOA....the list can keep going...I will not go with it. Alot of these companies keep having the same problems with authenticity.

Also, I wanted to buy a pair of Cadillac Williams Game Worn Gloves from Elite Sports last week. But after the Hines Ward Cleat incident, I will stay far away from them. Yes, the gloves look real, but with the Hines Cleats, people put alot of trust in the actual item and look at the outcome, but when all the smoked cleared, it was the dealer/authenticator (Elite Sports) who was left with all eyes on him.

ChrisCavalier

06-13-2006, 03:32 PM

Hello Everyone,

Eric and I spoke about this thread and he asked that I make a post here since he is currently swamped at work.

While we thought the thread was useful to members, there were a number of times where posts contained what appeared to be personal attacks that were in violation of rule #3 on the forum. Thus, the thread has been edited to remove such comments. In addition, the title of the thread has been changed to reflect the intended purpose of the thread rather than an accusation.

If anyone has a specific question they would like to ask of Scott please feel free to do so as I believe he has been very candid and willing to discuss any questions our members may have about his company's protocol. However, please note that all discourse on this thread, or any other thread for that matter, should be consistent with the rules of the forum and will be moderated as such.

Please feel free to let us know if you have any questions and thank you in advance for your cooperation.

Sincerely,
Christopher Cavalier
CEO - Game Used Universe

Mike Grueber

06-13-2006, 05:46 PM

Gamehawk,

At the end of the day, it is important that you feel comfortable with the jersey. If you don't feel comfortable with the jersey because you believe that that it may be game-issued rather than game-worn, then it is probably best that you don't buy the jersey.

I respect your opinion, too, and certainly understand your perspective. As someone who primarily collects game-worn hockey jerseys, I have a strong preference for jerseys that show a signficant amount of wear. I do have a few jerseys in my collection that have minimal wear, but I know that they were only worn in a few games.

I tend to agree that letters of authenticity are not worth the paper that they are written on. While provenance is important, I believe that a jersey should speak for itself. Unfortunately, it is not possible to make a definitive determination if a particular jersey was game-worn in some cases. From my perspective, the most important things are a seller's integrity and whether he/she is willing to stand behind the items that they sell.

Meigray's system has been a major step forward in ensuring the authenticity of the jerseys that it sells. While there are checks and balances built into the Meigray system, even that system could conceivably be used to defraud collectors. People feel comfortable with the Meigray system because of the fact that Berry Meisel is an upstanding and honest individual who obviously cares about the hobby. If Barry had an evil twin, that twin could certainly manipulate the situation to exploit collectors.

Mike Grueber

Nathan

06-13-2006, 09:15 PM

gamehawk,

I do agree with you on Lampson and we both have the same view. I personally won't touch anything that he's signed off on for a variety of reasons.

That said, I am insulted that you would suggest that I couldn't provide an unbiased opinion based on who it came from. I have done business with Scott and collegejersey.com on numerous occasions and have yet to find an issue at all, but by no means am I strictly beholden to him/them. They don't employ me or pay me, so there's no company line to toe. I collect college jerseys and have four years (this coming season will be #5) of equipment room experience, and not one of those years was I employed by an authenticator or dealer or private collector.

I think it's a bit unfair to take this particular discussion and try to put Scott and CJ.com into the same realm as Grey Flannel, Lou Lampson, and others who are more than a bit shady. I have yet to see someone be able to make an accusation regarding the actual AUTHENTICITY (not semantics) of a CJ.com item that has been able to stick. I can't look at a single case and say "Boy, those guys exploit their name to really rail collectors over the table" like can be done with "the others". So to treat this like it's a huge watershed when it's a semantics issue is absurd.

But, as I suggested, start digging through hours of film and see if there's a better explanation for this. It's entirely possible that Elliott had a particular kind of jersey the first two games (that he didn't play in) and a different one later on in the season. This is actually somewhat common; I saw a Peerless Price jersey once that was used in an uncommonly cold game that was unlike every other jersey I'd seen from that year except one from a backup lineman. I've also seen a few that are of a lighter material being used for one game due to particular conditions. There was one NHL player who had to have his jersey first specially treated to prevent aggravating a skin condition. I once coached a guy (football) who wore a jersey that ended up completely destroyed and couldn't even be worn in a playoff game. We had his backup jersey, so he wore that....he then got injured on the opening kickoff and was done for the day. That ended up being a loss and the final game of the year. Guess what? Game worn.

So it's entirely possible that Elliott wore a jersey those first two games while not playing (which, according to the CJ.com glossary, is still game-used) and switched to a different one for one reason or another for the last games where he did play. As easy as it is to be cynical in this hobby, I'd prefer to look to there being a perfectly reasonable explanation in a case involving someone who has built a positive reputation in a short period of time.

As an aside, Mike Grueber has been collecting longer than a few people on here have been alive and literally is an encyclopedia of sport knowledge both major and obscure. He's one of the few guys whose word I would put absolute faith in.

Nathan

06-13-2006, 09:19 PM

A quick addon....the goalie jersey I have is officially listed as such (keep in mind that MeiGray recognizes preseason, preseason/set 1, set 1, set 2, set 3, set 3/playoffs, playoffs, Stanley Cup Finals)....preseason GW/regular season GI, even though the duration of the goalie's callup period overlapped the set 1 and set 2 dates.

trsent

06-14-2006, 03:54 PM

Let me just hit on a few more things please:

Grey Flannel - People's Court Ripken Jersey FAKE
Elite Sports - Hines Ward Cleats $490 FAKE
California Sports - Ron's Shill Bidding Caught on Ebay FRAUD
Historic Auctions - Pulling MANY Gamers out of there current auction because of questionable authenticity. (See Current topics on how people feel)

Maybe you are right about CollegeJersey.com not trying to put one over on me or the public for $199. But maybe, just maybe, you are wrong. As I listed above, those are just merely 4 examples of "Great Dealers" who have stirred up this fourm and this hobby in more recent times with there crap. So who is to say Collegejersey.com is not selling "Game Issued" as "Game Worn" By all the facts I described from Brenda's email, it seems they are doing some nice Guess Work on the jerseys they sell and cannot pin down wheter it was simply WORN or ISSUED. Joel, it is a 50/50 shot here buddy...

Those are facts.....and no one is being silly. What is silly is watching you try to dig Historic Auctions out of there current problems.

Sorry, I was off-line the last few days.

Just a public note to you - (REMOVED) for your comments above about me working with Historic Auctions so they would work with us to improve their auctions. It is none of your business who I am nice to and you are so out of line even mentioning it.

I put myself on the line to middle the discussions with James Brown and forum members, and you take a shot at me for it? Why? Because someone wanted to get to the bottom of the story before they decided never to talk to us again? Give me hell for trying, (REMOVED) for your comments when I was trying to help. I made my mind up about Historic last night, and I posted in the appropriate category a general post why I will not middle with them and GUU anymore. I tried to get the whole story, and you give me hell for talking to the guy? (REMOVED). Go deal with your $199.00 jersey accusations elsewhere because you crossed the line here today. Eric won't let me post what I want to say to you, but you can guess.

You were a jerk to collegejerseys.com accusing them of possibly selling intentionally altered or not worn jerseys as game used and then you bring up other issues from other companies and say maybe this company is faking a $199.00 jersey and you don't like that I have defended them.

You are welcomed to my ignore list, along with others who post on this forum for no propose and can't have a discussion without getting dirty.

LIKE IT IS YOUR BUSINESS WHO I DEFEND OR WORK WITH ON THIS FORUM OR IN REAL LIFE!!!!

If you wish to reply to me, please do so via my private email which is listed below because I will no longer be able to read your posts on this forum. Sorry I tried to have a mature discussion and it got thrown in my face.