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View Full Version : Stan Musial Possible 1962-1963 gamer



apujols04
11-24-2005, 12:51 PM
MEARS has this tagging as being from 1963-later. They also say they could always be off by a year or two as more info is discovered. Any opinions on this Musial jersey?

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both-teams-played-hard
11-24-2005, 10:51 PM
Sir
You either have a $10,000 jersey or a perfect forgery! Don't be tempted by ANY of the offers, I am sure you have received.
GOOD LUCK

apujols04
11-24-2005, 10:57 PM
Sir
You either have a $10,000 jersey or a perfect forgery! Don't be tempted by ANY of the offers, I am sure you have received.
GOOD LUCK

Could you please let me know if you think this is a 1962 or a carried over jersey for 1963. As I said, mears places the date of this tagging from 1963 on. If this is a 1963 jersey, it is one from his last season. Thanks for your opinion. I wish I could get some more opinions from people with cardinals expertise but no such luck. I appreciate your opinion sir, and I hope you are right that it is authentic. this is my dream jersey I always hoped I would find if It is game used or an authentic jersey from the 60's

scottanservitz
11-24-2005, 11:41 PM
Wow! Nuff said!

hof89
11-24-2005, 11:49 PM
Does anyone question this individual and how he came into possession of these extremely rare jerseys? Seems strange to me?????

apujols04
11-25-2005, 03:28 AM
Does anyone question this individual and how he came into possession of these extremely rare jerseys? Seems strange to me?????
There is no guarantee that any of these jerseys are legit game used jerseys yet. They appear to be vintage until someone in the know writes a letter for one of them as an actual "game used jersey." People are already questioning the bradshaw, unitas, and staubach jerseys with the pics I have shown. This is why I had no idea what the deal with these jerseys were when I agreed to buy them.

I am no expert and i have stayed away from game-used due to a threat from a 3rd party that a Cardinals game-used "expert" or two would hate on any game used stuff I acquired (because I stuck up for myself when I felt wronged by them). I just hoped they were at least store bought and undoctored jerseys from an older era which they appear to possibly be. Looks like I may have got lucky with the Musial jersey. Maybe.

The way I acquired these jerseys is because the people who sold them to me had no emotional connection to or interest in these jerseys. The sellers and I both knew there was an outside chance a few of these may have been used. The man who left the jerseys to them "was not a very nice person, and they had not hardly spoken to him much in years." Authentication takes time and $1500 for 5 jerseys and maybe they didnt care about seeing how much money they could make off of someone who hurt them in some sort of way. I can't pretend to totally know their personal business.

I was offered these jerseys after first seeing the Musial and talking to them about what they wanted for it. I told them I was hoping to buy the jersey and have Musial sign it at the cardinals fredbird blowout sale this weeking where Stan is signing autographs. They thought it was very cool I actually was going to be seeing Stan this weekend to get the jersey signed if they sold it to me, and they seemed to like the fact I was a young (still almost a kid) person who really sounded exited about the possibly of owning the possible game used musial jersey. They said I seemed to appreciate the jersey more than they ever could. I did not know about the other jerseys until after i had purshased the Musial and other baseball jersey. They had sensed my excitement and felt I would appreciate hearing about what other 3 jerseys they had. They told me the names of the players, the story behind the jerseys, about their bitterness towards the previous owner, and then a price. They knew the jerseys would be worth a LOT more if authentic (which the football ones may not be) and just did not care. It is not always about the money for some people. It was refreshing to see that, and boy am I glad I was the one they picked to sell these to.

They turned down much bigger $$$ by others who had seen the Musial jersey but had called them after I had called but before we agreed upon a price (according to them) and did not even tell the other people offering about the remaning jerseys. Sounds to me like people who were absolutely not about the money for a personal reason. I will post pics of the 5th jersey I bought if anyone can tell me what (IF ANY) tagging I should look for with a yellow game used Kansas City Athletics jersey from 1957. I am not playing games with anybody on this great forum and this is not some sort of prank. I believe the story behind these jerseys and all I can say is that there are a few people who I would not want to make a dime off of. Not a penny, no matter what the situation.

apujols04
11-25-2005, 03:48 AM
Wow! Nuff said!
My only question is...........are you guys playing games with me? I see one of you has one post ever on this forum-(a reply to me), and the other one of you has only 6 posts (5 replys to me). Are you guys experienced jersey experts who are pretending my Musial jersey is game used when it is obviously not? (I would not get the joke or know the difference, honestly.) Does this jersey REALLY seem to be 100% an authentic Musial 1960's game used jersey? Or are you guys having fun at my expense? I would appreciate a response that is not sarcastic. Thanks for your help if you are being sincere.

hof89
11-25-2005, 11:13 AM
There is no guarantee that any of these jerseys are legit game used jerseys yet. They appear to be vintage until someone in the know writes a letter for one of them as an actual "game used jersey." People are already questioning the bradshaw, unitas, and staubach jerseys with the pics I have shown. This is why I had no idea what the deal with these jerseys were when I agreed to buy them.

I am no expert and i have stayed away from game-used due to a threat from a 3rd party that a Cardinals game-used "expert" or two would hate on any game used stuff I acquired (because I stuck up for myself when I felt wronged by them). I just hoped they were at least store bought and undoctored jerseys from an older era which they appear to possibly be. Looks like I may have got lucky with the Musial jersey. Maybe.

The way I acquired these jerseys is because the people who sold them to me had no emotional connection to or interest in these jerseys. The sellers and I both knew there was an outside chance a few of these may have been used. The man who left the jerseys to them "was not a very nice person, and they had not hardly spoken to him much in years." Authentication takes time and $1500 for 5 jerseys and maybe they didnt care about seeing how much money they could make off of someone who hurt them in some sort of way. I can't pretend to totally know their personal business.

I was offered these jerseys after first seeing the Musial and talking to them about what they wanted for it. I told them I was hoping to buy the jersey and have Musial sign it at the cardinals fredbird blowout sale this weeking where Stan is signing autographs. They thought it was very cool I actually was going to be seeing Stan this weekend to get the jersey signed if they sold it to me, and they seemed to like the fact I was a young (still almost a kid) person who really sounded exited about the possibly of owning the possible game used musial jersey. They said I seemed to appreciate the jersey more than they ever could. I did not know about the other jerseys until after i had purshased the Musial and other baseball jersey. They had sensed my excitement and felt I would appreciate hearing about what other 3 jerseys they had. They told me the names of the players, the story behind the jerseys, about their bitterness towards the previous owner, and then a price. They knew the jerseys would be worth a LOT more if authentic (which the football ones may not be) and just did not care. It is not always about the money for some people. It was refreshing to see that, and boy am I glad I was the one they picked to sell these to.

They turned down much bigger $$$ by others who had seen the Musial jersey but had called them after I had called but before we agreed upon a price (according to them) and did not even tell the other people offering about the remaning jerseys. Sounds to me like people who were absolutely not about the money for a personal reason. I will post pics of the 5th jersey I bought if anyone can tell me what (IF ANY) tagging I should look for with a yellow game used Kansas City Athletics jersey from 1957. I am not playing games with anybody on this great forum and this is not some sort of prank. I believe the story behind these jerseys and all I can say is that there are a few people who I would not want to make a dime off of. Not a penny, no matter what the situation.

I don't know...something isn't adding up here??? For example, the Bradshaw jersey STILL has stains on the #'s???? That jersey came off his back and was given to your contact to put away all these years??? Does anyone else on this forum feel something is wrong here?

both-teams-played-hard
11-25-2005, 02:31 PM
Pujols
I originally asked if this was a joke because it seemed too good to be true. You obviously say your prayers, because you were blessed to obtain these jerseys. The Musial is NOT a store bought. I would think it is from '63. Rawlings is in St. Louis and a Cardinals jersey would be an obvious choice to unveil any new "tagging". This forum is brand new, so don't be fooled by the number of a member's posts. Does it appear that the name and numbers are original? Does it appear there has been name or number change. How many offers have you received. I would advise NOT sending them to any authenticator and doing the research yourself! First, ask your contact every question possible about their origin.You have posted photos of 3 hall of fame caliber jerseys. I have been collecting for more than 20 years and I have never owned the shirt of a HOFer from ANY sport.I am jealous of your find. I am waiting for you to post photos of your 1957 UNC Tarheels and your Pittsburgh Picses (just kidding). It is impossible to authenticate a jersey from photos. With that said, it appears you are sitting on a real Staubach, Bradshaw, and Musial. If they are fake, someone went to great trouble to deceive you. It sounds like you do not believe this is the case. Trust your gut, and keep them in your collection. It doesn't sound like you invested a lot of money. A con-artist would try and bilk someone out of as much as possible...Please go ahead and post photos from your treasure trove!

apujols04
11-25-2005, 09:13 PM
Pujols
I originally asked if this was a joke because it seemed too good to be true. You obviously say your prayers, because you were blessed to obtain these jerseys. The Musial is NOT a store bought. I would think it is from '63. Rawlings is in St. Louis and a Cardinals jersey would be an obvious choice to unveil any new "tagging". This forum is brand new, so don't be fooled by the number of a member's posts. Does it appear that the name and numbers are original? Does it appear there has been name or number change. How many offers have you received. I would advise NOT sending them to any authenticator and doing the research yourself! First, ask your contact every question possible about their origin.You have posted photos of 3 hall of fame caliber jerseys. I have been collecting for more than 20 years and I have never owned the shirt of a HOFer from ANY sport.I am jealous of your find. I am waiting for you to post photos of your 1957 UNC Tarheels and your Pittsburgh Picses (just kidding). It is impossible to authenticate a jersey from photos. With that said, it appears you are sitting on a real Staubach, Bradshaw, and Musial. If they are fake, someone went to great trouble to deceive you. It sounds like you do not believe this is the case. Trust your gut, and keep them in your collection. It doesn't sound like you invested a lot of money. A con-artist would try and bilk someone out of as much as possible...Please go ahead and post photos from your treasure trove!
Thanks for the nice reply. I will try to answer all of your questions and post all the detailed pics for each of my 5 jerseys for "PRACTICE" as many of this site call it. I welcome and appreciate any opinions. The answers to your questions:

1. name and numbers appear to me to be original and absolutely no evidence of names or numbers were on this jersey previously.

2. The only offers I have received are for the Bradshaw jersey: $400, $500, $600, and $700. No offers have been made for any of the other jerseys.

3. I asked all the questions. all they knew was that the man who left the jerseys to them had them for a long time and they could not remember how early he had them. They guessed at least the early 80's. Since they say the man who owned the jerseys was not very nice, I guess they did not care to discuss his collection with him. They guessed the jerseys were player worn but they were not collectors and did not care to keep them for themselves. they wanted them to go to people or someone who would appreciate them. Thats 100% of the info they gave me.

4. I know it wasn't a question but dating this jersey to 1963 would make it one of Stan's last gamers. 1963 was his final season. Unreal!

----Also, a local card shop owner says he once sold a 1943 musial gamer which was a heavy material. He said my jersey was possibly not heavy enough. My reply based on simple logic is that maybe the 60's jerseys were possibly not made with the really heavy wool from the 40's due to the fact players must have complained about how hot they must have been to wear. it seems natural the cardinals would have got smart and produced lighter weight wool type jerseys some 20 years later. Am I right or wrong that the 1962-63 jerseys were maybe not made with as heavy material as the ones from 1943?

THE DETAILED PICS (21 of THEM) ARE BELOW:

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apujols04
11-25-2005, 09:15 PM
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apujols04
11-25-2005, 09:16 PM
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apujols04
11-25-2005, 09:18 PM
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apujols04
11-25-2005, 09:20 PM
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both-teams-played-hard
11-25-2005, 09:26 PM
60s flannels were a lighter weight than that in the 40s...anyone who says your Musial has problems wants it for themselves.....

also,a 1956 Stan Musial recently sold for over $40,000 at a Grey Flannel auction...lock your doors...

apujols04
11-25-2005, 09:27 PM
Anyone who is interested in sharing info with me, please let me know your comments/any additional info after looking at all of my detailed pics.

apujols04
11-25-2005, 09:32 PM
Detailed pics of the Stauback, bradshaw, Unitas, and Billy Martin signed A's jersey will follow in 4 separate posts. Again, I would appreciate any and all comments/opnions from the collectors and experts on this site.

both-teams-played-hard
11-25-2005, 09:39 PM
Your KC Athletics is a Billy freakin' Martin???WTF???
DUDE! Call Allstate tonight! I think you could trade your jerseys for a Bentley...seriously.

apujols04
11-25-2005, 09:55 PM
I am not sure if it is a gamer, but it is signed.

apujols04
11-26-2005, 02:37 PM
The Lalands expert at the final busch stadium sale says that he thinks he sees that there was a name and number on the musial jersey previously. he says it is an authentic cardinals used jersey, but does not think its musial's and is doctored. I am dissapointed as that was the one I really wanted to hang on my wall more than any of them. please email me at utahjazzfan8@hotmail.com if you are interested in buying or trading for the musial, staubach, or unitas jerseys i posted pics of. the unitas and staubach jerseys were supposedly according to lelands expert not retail or game worn but likely made in the same factory as the real ones as favor to someone or for a benefit. i will listen to all trade/or buy offers. thanks.

Birdbats
11-26-2005, 04:28 PM
I'm not a jersey expert, but looking back at some old photos, there's an obvious characteristic from the Musial jersey that suggests it is from the mid-1960s and not one from his playing days. Here's the telltale sign -- the tail of the first bird is in front of the bat, a change made in about 1967. On a jersey from 1962 or 1963, the tail would be behind the bat. The tail was in front of the bat until just a few years ago when the logo was redesigned and the tail was placed behind the bat again, similar to the way it was during Musial's days.

Jeff
http://www.birdbats.com

apujols04
11-26-2005, 05:29 PM
Jeff, Thanks for your help. Do you think this jersey would have any value if autographed with a HOF inscription? If I am going to frame and keep the jersey for a while on my wall, would you recommend unstitching the 62 year stitch out of the jersey just to be sure it doesn't deceive anybody if I ever sell it down the line. Other forum members---is it ethical for me to ever sell the jersey once autographed by musial-- as a different players authentic game style/possibly used--but changed to look like a Vintage Musial---signed throwback jersey, not as a gamer? if so,what would something like this be worth?

I really want to know if I should remove the 62 red stitching?

scottanservitz
11-27-2005, 11:53 AM
Ok. First off, I've posted before, just not since GameUsedForum switched over to this site. I was not making a joke about the Musial. I am very envious. It looks legit to me. I am not an expert on flannels by any means. My buddy has a '63 Billy Goodman Red Sox flannel. It is not the heavy flannel you mentioned used in the '40s. I think it looks awesome. You are doing the right thing here in getting as much information as you can. As far as getting an opinion, #1 it is going to cost you, but in the long run it would be well worth it. #2, be careful who you authenticate it with. Dave Grob is very knowledgable with Mears. He has written numerous articles in SCD and is experienced with older jerseys. Whoever or whatever you do, it will be well worth it. I would love to come across a find like you had. People will be naysayers all they want. Things like this do happen. And I like when the average guy who really loves the hobby hits it big. Good luck in your endeavors and keep us posted. -Scott

apujols04
11-27-2005, 12:33 PM
Ok. First off, I've posted before, just not since GameUsedForum switched over to this site. I was not making a joke about the Musial. I am very envious. It looks legit to me. I am not an expert on flannels by any means. My buddy has a '63 Billy Goodman Red Sox flannel. It is not the heavy flannel you mentioned used in the '40s. I think it looks awesome. You are doing the right thing here in getting as much information as you can. As far as getting an opinion, #1 it is going to cost you, but in the long run it would be well worth it. #2, be careful who you authenticate it with. Dave Grob is very knowledgable with Mears. He has written numerous articles in SCD and is experienced with older jerseys. Whoever or whatever you do, it will be well worth it. I would love to come across a find like you had. People will be naysayers all they want. Things like this do happen. And I like when the average guy who really loves the hobby hits it big. Good luck in your endeavors and keep us posted. -Scott
I had it looked at and it does appear somebody may have removed a name. the only thing is that is was a single number which was removed so I need a special light to see it. I guess it could have been a musial before and then they made the numbers and name smaller. I will have to keep checking, but everyone seems to think the birds are all wrong on the bat.

scottanservitz
11-27-2005, 09:40 PM
The good thing about this situation is you can do the research finding photos of Musial in the time frames you need. Being a hall of famer, there will be shots of him in the jersey with many being dated. If the bird is wrong, then that would be a definite indicator. Being that the players only had a couple jerseys for the season, if yours is legit you should be able to tell from the picture. It will be a time consuming process. But hopefully you can come to a somewhat valid conclusion one way or the other. If it were a modern jersey it would be a more difficult task, since players wear sometimes multitudes of different jerseys. When players get close to milestones such as 500 homers and 3000 hits, it seems they change even during the games to have more items available for the Hall of Fame or themselves or even the market to make $ on. I guess it all depends on how you look at it. Back in the day that was not even thought about. Another thing to think about is the recycling of equipment being sent down to the minors to save teams money. These surface from time to time and are somewhat traceable as well. Anyway, I hope you can find evidence to help you in your endeavor. Good luck.

apujols04
12-02-2005, 12:08 AM
It is a shame Stan put a 5 on accident and he had to change it into a 6, but this jersey is a sweet looking jersey now, no matter what the authenticators say about if it was ever game worn by ANY cardinals player in the 60's.

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apujols04
12-02-2005, 12:13 AM
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both-teams-played-hard
11-01-2006, 11:49 PM
WARNING! THIS IS A RE-FRESHED YEAR OLD POST...

MEARS has this tagging as being from 1963-later. They also say they could always be off by a year or two as more info is discovered. Any opinions on this Musial jersey?

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Back in the olden days, I sure was naive. I thought these jerseys were sold to this guy by an eldery couple, cause they wanted them to go to a "youngsportscollector". I just noticed the eBay watermark in the bottom corner of the tagging photo. I feel like a broke Sherlock Holmes for not noticing this 11 months ago. What a wild goose chase this forum was put on! I am embarressed by some of my comments on this thread. The chain-stitched name-in-tail seems to resemble many different "doctored" superstar baseball jerseys sold on eBay over the past year (Ripken, Munson, Carlton-everone remembers, right?) If we were told these were bought on eBay, it might have saved some time. Flash-forward to Vintage Authentics current auction:http://vintageauthentics.at.truition.com/cgi-bin/ncommerce3/ProductDisplay?prrfnbr=76031387&prmenbr=57735959&aunbr=76378097
This shirt has re-appeared with LOAs from some of the hobby's finest. Now it's a coach's jersey with restored NOB and number. Does anyone have knowledge of Musial's coaching career with St. Louis?? Was this just added to the auction description to fit the age of the Rawlings tag and the logo change to "CARDINALS". Boy! I was a tool.
Also, is a MEARS "3" similar to an eBAY "?". Can anyone explain the dates autographed by Musial and Rose?

ISUbirdjersey
11-02-2006, 04:13 PM
I am the consignor of the jersey. The jersey was first signed by Pete Rose. I think the date he wrote was the date he signed it and the # is for the total # of hits he had at that point (he had just passed Musial). I wanted to have Stan sign the jersey and I figured I could make the auto's be similar. So I requested Stan to write the date of his 3000th hit and then write 3000th hit. First he wrote a 53 on accident instead of 63 and he fixed the 5 to be a 6. Hence why it looks the way it does. The jersey was given to his agent and I guess instead of having Stan then write 3630th hit, we wrote 3630 hits #6. I consigned the item due to the autograph getting a little bit messed up and now I can see what it's worth. Now that it was authenticated as a Gamer, now I really want to bid on it and get it back. BTPH, are you saying it's for sure not a Musial worn coaches gamer?

ISUbirdjersey
11-02-2006, 04:18 PM
Also keep in mind the Bradshaw and the Staubach were authenticated by MEARS and graded A7.5 and A6. They were not from an elderly couple. They were from a bitter couple who inherited the jerseys from a father in law of one of them who was "the scum of the earth." I was the first person to email them on ebay and tell them to not let anyone talk them out of ending the auction early as they had what appeared to be game worn jerseys. They told me they had a bunch of offers in the several hundred dollar range and decided since I was the first to warn them, that they wanted me to have the jerseys to do with as I pleased. Therefore, I sold them to buy other game used items including the Pujols rookie bat which is soon to be the first A10 MEARS graded photomatched rookie bat. I am thankful for those people who gave me the jerseys. They were not con artists. They were turned off by people trying to scam them on ebay and I got lucky when I warned them to be sure they knew what they were doing if they were going to end the auction early for a few hundred dollars.

ISUbirdjersey
11-02-2006, 04:22 PM
What you will notice is that somebody pulled out the year chain stitchig after I sent the jersey to Vintage authentics. Look at the pic, the year chain stitching is no longer there but still visible. I guess someone decided that was the right thing to do? I am not sure. I want to buy back this jersey and send it to MEARS so they can evaluate it as a possible coaches jersey. The jersey is obviously Vintage. I owned it for a long time and it is a neat jersey.

hblakewolf
11-02-2006, 04:33 PM
What you will notice is that somebody pulled out the year chain stitchig after I sent the jersey to Vintage authentics. Look at the pic, the year chain stitching is no longer there but still visible. I guess someone decided that was the right thing to do? I am not sure. I want to buy back this jersey and send it to MEARS so they can evaluate it as a possible coaches jersey. The jersey is obviously Vintage. I owned it for a long time and it is a neat jersey.


Are you indicating that you consigned this to Vintage Authentics and they removed the 62 once they received it?

Please elaborate.

Howard Wolf
hblakewolf@patmedia.net

ISUbirdjersey
11-02-2006, 08:12 PM
Are you indicating that you consigned this to Vintage Authentics and they removed the 62 once they received it?

Please elaborate.

Howard Wolf
hblakewolf@patmedia.net




Howard,

When I mailed that jersey, it had the MEARS hologram and the 63 stitched in. You may confirm with Steve that this jersey was originally issued an A7. Then Jeff Scott (Birdbats expert) pointed out to me at a card show that the jersey had to be after Musial's playing days due to the the style of the Cardinals logo. The placement of the birds feet on the bat proves it to be post 1963 and I give credit to Jeff Scott for noticing this first. I decided to tell Vintage Authentics that fact and then I was informed the grade went from A7 to unable to authenticate. I asked to have the jersey back because they wanted to list it as just an auto'd jersey. I recently sent it back in to have it examined by Lou Lampson due to the fact I had talked to Lou over the phone and he wanted to examine it. I imagine he has some evidence that Musial wore a Coaches jersey. The St. Louis Cardinals museum also has a Musial coaches jersey. This was also pointed out to me by Jeff Scott. The reason the Musial jersey had the hologram on it was because they originally passed it. The LOA was to follow but the hologram was placed on the jersey which was to be a playing days A7 according to Steve. Once I relayed what Jeff Scott noticed, the hologram was already there. I would like to find out more about this jersey. When they say the numbers were restored, I wonder WHEN they were restored? Could they have been restored by the Cardinals to make it from another players jersey to a Musial coaches jersey? I don't know. I don't have a photo match.

ISUbirdjersey
11-02-2006, 08:15 PM
When I sent this jersey in to Vintage Authentics for the second time, that 62 was still stitched in. This is to confirm that I was not the one who changed anything about this Musial jersey. However, I am not sure what my opinion is about the # having been removed. If it was fraudulently put there, I guess VA should have removed it. I have to post these facts because the pics in the first few comments by me on this thread clearly show the images of the 62 being stitched there. I did not remove it and did not tell or authorize anyone to remove that stitching.

ISUbirdjersey
11-02-2006, 08:17 PM
Lou might be right. MEARS is not disputing Lou's findings. They want to research the jersey themselves before being mentioned as an authenticator.

stlbats
11-02-2006, 09:53 PM
Hello. First off, let me say that in no way am I doubting what you are saying, but i didnt realize that VA or any auction house had the right to alter any item someone sends them for consignment. Whether an item is legit or not, they shouldnt be able to just alter it as they see fit. If this were mine, I would be very upset if an item got altered/changed in this or any way.


Jason

sportscentury
11-02-2006, 11:35 PM
Forum readers,

I received a private email tonight asking me to take a look at this thread. I want to respond to this person, but can't make heads or tails of what's going on here. I would appreciate it if someone could answer the following questions for me:

A) If you can make sense of this thread (because I am unable to), would you please provide a brief summary of what in the heck is going on here - it seems that we are missing at least a couple of big pieces of this story.

B) Why was apujols04 (David Archibald) banned?

C) Why do several of the posts by apujols04 show that he edited his own posts (e.g., posts #6 and #10, just to name a couple)? Since when can we edit our own posts? Or is this a series of misprints?

D) When was this jersey altered? And by whom?

I would really appreciate it if someone would break this down for me. This is one of the most convoluted threads that I've read in a while.

Reid

ISUbirdjersey
11-03-2006, 12:32 AM
Forum readers,

I received a private email tonight asking me to take a look at this thread. I want to respond to this person, but can't make heads or tails of what's going on here. I would appreciate it if someone could answer the following questions for me:

A) If you can make sense of this thread (because I am unable to), would you please provide a brief summary of what in the heck is going on here - it seems that we are missing at least a couple of big pieces of this story.

B) Why was apujols04 (David Archibald) banned?

C) Why do several of the posts by apujols04 show that he edited his own posts (e.g., posts #6 and #10, just to name a couple)? Since when can we edit our own posts? Or is this a series of misprints?

D) When was this jersey altered? And by whom?

I would really appreciate it if someone would break this down for me. This is one of the most convoluted threads that I've read in a while.

Reid

This is David A. I was apujols04. I was banned for not following the forum rules. Especially once I was baited by certain members. Either way, I then broke the rules and was banned and told I could never post under a pujols04 again. Eric was later nice enough to let me continue posting with this new user name. Chris Cavalier knows I am using this new username as well. There is nothing else to this story. I will answer any questions for you Reid.

ISUbirdjersey
11-03-2006, 12:36 AM
I'm not a jersey expert, but looking back at some old photos, there's an obvious characteristic from the Musial jersey that suggests it is from the mid-1960s and not one from his playing days. Here's the telltale sign -- the tail of the first bird is in front of the bat, a change made in about 1967. On a jersey from 1962 or 1963, the tail would be behind the bat. The tail was in front of the bat until just a few years ago when the logo was redesigned and the tail was placed behind the bat again, similar to the way it was during Musial's days.

Jeff
http://www.birdbats.com

Jeff Scott's post.

ISUbirdjersey
11-03-2006, 12:40 AM
WARNING! THIS IS A RE-FRESHED YEAR OLD POST...


Back in the olden days, I sure was naive. I thought these jerseys were sold to this guy by an eldery couple, cause they wanted them to go to a "youngsportscollector". I just noticed the eBay watermark in the bottom corner of the tagging photo. I feel like a broke Sherlock Holmes for not noticing this 11 months ago. What a wild goose chase this forum was put on! I am embarressed by some of my comments on this thread. The chain-stitched name-in-tail seems to resemble many different "doctored" superstar baseball jerseys sold on eBay over the past year (Ripken, Munson, Carlton-everone remembers, right?) If we were told these were bought on eBay, it might have saved some time. Flash-forward to Vintage Authentics current auction:http://vintageauthentics.at.truition.com/cgi-bin/ncommerce3/ProductDisplay?prrfnbr=76031387&prmenbr=57735959&aunbr=76378097
This shirt has re-appeared with LOAs from some of the hobby's finest. Now it's a coach's jersey with restored NOB and number. Does anyone have knowledge of Musial's coaching career with St. Louis?? Was this just added to the auction description to fit the age of the Rawlings tag and the logo change to "CARDINALS". Boy! I was a tool.
Also, is a MEARS "3" similar to an eBAY "?". Can anyone explain the dates autographed by Musial and Rose?

BTPH, The Musial and Unitas jerseys were listed on eBay. Within 24 hours of listing, they had many offers. I told them what thought and they decided to sell me the jerseys for a great price and said to enjoy them and to do as I pleased with them. I chose to upgrade to things I collect. I am still very grateful. I am auctioning the Musial jersey to establish the market value. Maybe I can afford to buy it back and pay the fees like the guys with the Tris Speaker bat did.

ISUbirdjersey
11-03-2006, 12:43 AM
Hello. First off, let me say that in no way am I doubting what you are saying, but i didnt realize that VA or any auction house had the right to alter any item someone sends them for consignment. Whether an item is legit or not, they shouldnt be able to just alter it as they see fit. If this were mine, I would be very upset if an item got altered/changed in this or any way.


Jason

I talked to Steve and they removed the 62 to better prevent the jersey from ever being resold as a 1962 jersey. I understand the logic. I just wanted to make it clear -- it wasn't me who removed it. The auction house made that decision without my consent but I am not upset. It makes perfect sense and my goal is to protect the hobby when I can.

kingjammy24
11-03-2006, 12:58 AM
reid: many moons ago we were able to edit our posts. then, in the spirit of making people accountable for their words, eric removed the feature.

re: the A7. mears said "no grade was issued for this jersey and was deemed "unable to authenticate"...No MEARS letter was ever issued with a grade". david a. said that it originally received an A7 from mears. who's right?

"I talked to Steve and they removed the 62 to better prevent the jersey from ever being resold as a 1962 jersey."

that's an interesting auction house policy. i wonder if he also tore the nameplate off the schmidt he recently removed to prevent it from being sold as a gamer. steve, can you chime in here? is this a new vintage policy?

rudy.

sportscentury
11-03-2006, 09:01 AM
This is David A. I was apujols04. I was banned for not following the forum rules. Especially once I was baited by certain members. Either way, I then broke the rules and was banned and told I could never post under a pujols04 again. Eric was later nice enough to let me continue posting with this new user name. Chris Cavalier knows I am using this new username as well. There is nothing else to this story. I will answer any questions for you Reid.

David,

Thanks for your note and agreeing to answer any of my other questions. While I understand that you believe that there is nothing else to this story, I have to differ with you with respect to this understanding of things. A couple of other questions:

1) Specifically, what forum rules did you violate? My interest in this information is twofold. One, this information will help me to interpret this thread. Two, I am curious because my observations have been that it is actually not that easy to get banned. Can you refer to me to the thread (or threads) where you were "baited by certain members," along with any other threads that may help me to understand this?

2) Are you solely a collector, or do you work for, or own at least part of, a hobby-related business (e.g., dealership, authentication business, auction house, etc.)?

Thanks again for your note. I continue to be intrigued by this unusual Musial jersey story.

Best,
Reid

ISUbirdjersey
11-03-2006, 10:32 AM
David,

Thanks for your note and agreeing to answer any of my other questions. While I understand that you believe that there is nothing else to this story, I have to differ with you with respect to this understanding of things. A couple of other questions:

1) Specifically, what forum rules did you violate? My interest in this information is twofold. One, this information will help me to interpret this thread. Two, I am curious because my observations have been that it is actually not that easy to get banned. Can you refer to me to the thread (or threads) where you were "baited by certain members," along with any other threads that may help me to understand this?

2) Are you solely a collector, or do you work for, or own at least part of, a hobby-related business (e.g., dealership, authentication business, auction house, etc.)?

Thanks again for your note. I continue to be intrigued by this unusual Musial jersey story.

Best,
Reid

Reid, you should find it interesting that the most memorable examples of baiting and libel by other members were removed by Eric. He said that he was removing them to help people avaoid potential legal problems. This is because I was being attacked as a fraud but all of a sudden the items being attacked were being passed by MEARS. This is because they were legit items. When I defended myself, I got out of line along with the other posters. The difference was, they stopped when they were warned. I addressed each individual who was badmouthing me and about the 7th or 8th time I did so, Eric informed me that I was continually not following the rules. The differece was, I have 6-8 different people taking shots at me but they all just got warnings. I was warned after responding to the first few people but decided I wanted to address the rest of the people as well. Also keep in mind was banned after refusing to share information I overheard an auction house say about Eric. Eric did not like that too much as he felt I should name names if I wanted to be a member of this board. That goes against what I do unless provoked and I was not provoked by that auction house. Therefore, I did not want to bring them directly into it. Bottom line is.....the reason you can't read the posts is because Eric was trying to protect people from libel based on what they said about me and my jerseys. How would you like if Eric did that to the posts where people wrongly libeled and slandered your name? I was proven to have legit jerseys and my jerseys were proven to not be fraudulent. Unfortunately, Eric chose to not let others see the unfair comments made about me. Now that they are edited, they are gone for good. That is why I felt people on this board were choosing sides based on personal issues rather than based on the facts of the items.

ISUbirdjersey
11-03-2006, 10:38 AM
Reid,

I am a collector but I buy and sell to increase the value of my collection. Buying and selling Sports Memorabilia beats the S&P 500 for me. I would like to one day own one of the top auction houses in the nation. But as of right now I am just buying and selling until I find the right investors. I believe in multiple forms of authentication for most items and that is how I would run my business. I would use people like Howard to authenticate items he is an expert on in addition to using more well known companies like MEARS. I think I could do the whole auction house thing as good as how they are presently run. It is a business requiring funding and good connections with the top team specific authenticators in addition to studying all the facts. MEARS adds another level of security.

Eric
11-03-2006, 11:39 AM
Reid, you should find it interesting that the most memorable examples of baiting and libel by other members were removed by Eric. He said that he was removing them to help people avaoid potential legal problems. This is because I was being attacked as a fraud but all of a sudden the items being attacked were being passed by MEARS. This is because they were legit items. When I defended myself, I got out of line along with the other posters. The difference was, they stopped when they were warned. I addressed each individual who was badmouthing me and about the 7th or 8th time I did so, Eric informed me that I was continually not following the rules. The differece was, I have 6-8 different people taking shots at me but they all just got warnings. I was warned after responding to the first few people but decided I wanted to address the rest of the people as well. Also keep in mind was banned after refusing to share information I overheard an auction house say about Eric. Eric did not like that too much as he felt I should name names if I wanted to be a member of this board. That goes against what I do unless provoked and I was not provoked by that auction house. Therefore, I did not want to bring them directly into it. Bottom line is.....the reason you can't read the posts is because Eric was trying to protect people from libel based on what they said about me and my jerseys. How would you like if Eric did that to the posts where people wrongly libeled and slandered your name? I was proven to have legit jerseys and my jerseys were proven to not be fraudulent. Unfortunately, Eric chose to not let others see the unfair comments made about me. Now that they are edited, they are gone for good. That is why I felt people on this board were choosing sides based on personal issues rather than based on the facts of the items.

Wow-
That is a truly bizarre interpretation of what actually happened.
David- You were suspended because you violated the forum rules with your abusive posts.
You were then banned, and then suspended again once you re-registered under a different name with a different email address pretending to be someone else.
Then you were suspended again for posting again without permission, after claiming that you were told to take a few months off and then come back.
None of it had to do with you withholding gossip about me. I don't care about that stuff. People badmouth me all the time to my face and behind my back, so I'm pretty much used to it.
Let's make it clear- David, you could not follow the rules and after numerous warnings I had no choice but to ban you for you immature behavior.
That's the truth of the matter. Do not contact me. I don't feel like getting 20 emails from you accusing me of this or that. Thank you.
Eric

staindsox
11-03-2006, 11:45 AM
Does VA have the right to alter an item that was consigned to them? It seems that they would either have to choose whether or not to accept an item, but have no right to alter anything. This seems very odd to me. Are auction houses in the habit of altering items once they have been consigned??? This is a very scary prospect. I think an excellent point was made: did they tear the Schmidt name plate off of the jersey that was recently removed from the auction? This makes me nervous. Any comments?

staindsox
11-03-2006, 12:03 PM
It is generous to assume that the chain-stitched 62 is incorrect, but the Musial chain-stitching is correct. My gut instinct is that if the 62 is wrong, so is the Musial stitching.

sportscentury
11-03-2006, 02:38 PM
Wow-
That is a truly bizarre interpretation of what actually happened.
David- You were suspended because you violated the forum rules with your abusive posts.
You were then banned, and then suspended again once you re-registered under a different name with a different email address pretending to be someone else.
Then you were suspended again for posting again without permission, after claiming that you were told to take a few months off and then come back.
None of it had to do with you withholding gossip about me. I don't care about that stuff. People badmouth me all the time to my face and behind my back, so I'm pretty much used to it.
Let's make it clear- David, you could not follow the rules and after numerous warnings I had no choice but to ban you for you immature behavior.
That's the truth of the matter. Do not contact me. I don't feel like getting 20 emails from you accusing me of this or that. Thank you.
Eric

Eric and David,

Thanks for your notes.

Eric,

Yes, "Wow" is a word that came to my mind, as well.

Based on my communications with Steve Jensen (Vintage) earlier today, I have come to understand a very different version of events than that which has been shared in this thread. I have asked Steve to make a post on this thread to clear things up ... and things definitely need to be disentangled.

Finally, I am confused as to how many times ISUbirdjersey/David has been suspended and banned from this forum. Just for clarification, how many times can a person be suspended and banned before they are permanently banned? Is this stated in the forum policies?

I hope that we can continue to shed light on the history and ongoing issues of this Musial shirt. The only thing that I am certain of is that this story is far from complete.

Reid

hblakewolf
11-03-2006, 02:46 PM
Reid-
I too spoke with Steve at Vintage about a different issue, and we also discussed this particular thread. Steve told me that David was informed about the possibility of this jersey resurfacing as a gamer, and as such, the 62 was removed by Vintage to prevent this. Likewise, David approved of this, and the 62 was removed.

Seems pretty clear.

David, what are we missing?

Howard Wolf
hblakewolf@patmedia.net

staindsox
11-03-2006, 03:30 PM
It has been concluded that this jersey could not be a 1962 Musial. That is why the 62 was removed, correct?

Then...If it has been assumed that the "62" was not genuine, why are we assuming that the same chain-stitched "Musial" is correct? If the "62" was added to the jersey by some person, they also added "Musial." If one piece of the chain-stitching is false, they both are.

I am surpised VA has not completely pulled this lot. Something isn't right with this jersey. Any thoughts?

Chris

kingjammy24
11-03-2006, 03:40 PM
"Steve told me that David was informed about the possibility of this jersey resurfacing as a gamer, and as such, the 62 was removed by Vintage to prevent this. Likewise, David approved of this, and the 62 was removed."

is it me or is this absolutely wild? i mean..beyond nuts. i understand the intent to help the hobby but i also think that this sort of policy is a very slippery slope.

let's say, for example, a jersey pops up and it's atypical in it's tagging. due to the atypical tagging, MEARS rejects it and everyone agrees. the auction house then permanently defaces the item to prevent it from being sold as a "gamer". everyone cheers as we win another victory for the hobby. then a photo pops up of this jersey in action with the atypical tagging. a "uni watch" type of moment. oh dear. looks like the jersey's already been defaced when everyone was so positive that we had it right.

except for photomatched items, most items in this hobby require a leap of faith. personally, i don't ever think that something was either game-worn or not. i believe it's "likely" or "unlikely". unlikely doesn't mean impossible.
there's a 1990 Fisk jersey up on GFC right now with very odd tagging and an incorrect NOB. it comes with a team letter. without the team letter, i believe most authenticators would reject the jersey based on those 2 issues. i can't say whether the jersey was ever worn or not. i believe it's unlikely. if anyone defaced that jersey and was later shown a photo of Fisk actually wearing the odd jersey in a game (stranger things have happened), then what?

point is, by permanently defacing a jersey, you're saying that you're absolutely positive, without any doubt whatsoever, that the jersey wasn't worn. that's a huge statement. better hope you're right because if you aren't, you just ruined a good shirt.

rudy.

staindsox
11-03-2006, 03:50 PM
I absolutely agree with Rudy.

a) the jersey is real and has just been defaced. we have lost an example of unique tagging.

OR

b) the jersey is a fake and should not be sold in the first place, not altered. an auction house should not alter tagging just so it looks authentic.

Either way, I completely disagree with the decision to doctor the tagging. It's crazy, no matter which way you view it.

Chris

both-teams-played-hard
11-03-2006, 04:18 PM
I think I could do the whole auction house thing as good as how they are presently run.

Unfortunately, I totally agree with this statement.

Steve Jensen
11-03-2006, 05:01 PM
Just to clarify the issues surrounding the Stan Musial jersey. This jersey had actually been given to us twice. The first time the consignor wasn’t sure if he wanted to auction it or keep it for whatever reason. We submitted it to MEARS and they couldn’t authenticate it as a Musial playing day jersey. The Cardinal on the front dated the jersey to the mid-late 60’s. I relayed that info to the consignor and said we would offer it a post career Musial flannel but the ’62 needed to be removed because it had been deceptively added to this jersey and he agreed. It was not original stitching, It didn’t match the aging or color of the other stitching leading us to believe someone added it in to try to pass it off as a gamer which we weren’t comfortable with and either was the consignor. He decided he wanted to keep the jersey for the time being however.

The jersey was resubmitted for the current auction with a bunch of other items and I reminded the consignor that we would run it as a post career Musial (not a ’62) and the tagging would be very deceptive in marketing this jersey because it was recently added and he was in complete agreement. He never at anytime wanted it presented as a ’62 Musial gamer and his expectations were in line with what we thought the jersey was worth. Both parties were in complete agreement that it would be deceptive to leave the ’62 stitched on the jersey and wanted to make sure that it described accurately. Still a nice ‘60’s post career flannel.

There was no attempt to deceive here by either party but rather an effort to prevent it. The stitching was fraudalently added to the jersey recently (it was NOT original stitching) and it was very obvious to most novice observer. Both us and the consignor were in complete agreement as to how to market this jersey.

I'm not sure why this situation has been conveyed in such a negative light since the consignor was a part of all decisions made with this jersey and both parties wanted to take all precautions in making sure the item was presented correctly. I've e-mailed all of the current bidders and we've updated the lot on our website to try to help clarify. If anyone has any questions or concerns please e-mail me at: steve@vintageauthentics.com


Best Regards,
Steve Jensen
www.vintageauthentics.com (http://www.vintageauthentics.com/)

sportscentury
11-03-2006, 05:16 PM
David/ISUbirdjersey,

Based on the recent posts from Eric and Steve Jensen, it would seem that you have a very unique way of remembering and presenting history.

Can you make sense of all of this for us? I need help here ... as your posts (including the ones you made under your banned userid) just don't add up for me. Please do not misinterpret my post as an attempt to "bait" you. I intend nothing of the sort. Clearly, I'm not the only one utterly baffled here (e.g., Warren, Steve, Eric, Howard, Rudy, Chris, and others all seem to share in at least some form of confusion, if not amazement).

Reid

staindsox
11-03-2006, 05:32 PM
First, thank you very much for that post Steve. This helps clear up some confusion.

Secondly, your reasoning for the first banning seemed odd. The times I have talked with him, I have only seen patience in Eric. I could not see him banning someone out of vindictiveness. Thank you for that quick response Eric.

Thirdly, I agree completely with Reid here. I believe David (ISUbirdjersey) should clarify his story/stories. There are many details that are not adding up. I am one of the confused, and concerned, so please help us out.

Chris

Eric
11-03-2006, 05:47 PM
And ISUbirdjersey, it might ring a bell that another reason you were banned is because you have posted under, broken the rules under and been banned under the following names.

apujols04
youngjerseycollector
david-a
davida
and of course my favorite youareajerk

David, have I missed any?
Eric

kingjammy24
11-03-2006, 06:29 PM
this is great stuff.

re: removal of the "62"

david: "I did not remove it and did not tell or authorize anyone to remove that stitching...The auction house made that decision without my consent."

steve: "I relayed that info to the consignor.. the ’62 needed to be removed because it had been deceptively added to this jersey and he agreed. Both parties were in complete agreement that it would be deceptive to leave the ’62 stitched on the jersey"

re: the original MEARS grade

david: "You may confirm with Steve that this jersey was originally issued an A7."

steve: "We submitted it to MEARS and they couldn’t authenticate it as a Musial playing day jersey"

mears: "no grade was issued for this jersey and was deemed "unable to authenticate"...No MEARS letter was ever issued with a grade"

anyway, 2 things i'm curious about:

- what evidence is there to suggest musial wore this as a coach?

- if the "62" wasn't legit then why is the "musial" stitching legit?


rudy.

both-teams-played-hard
11-03-2006, 06:37 PM
David, have I missed any?
Eric

"ebayautos" was used and was banned within minutes.

flaco1801
11-03-2006, 06:42 PM
if the "62" was added on what are the chances "musial" was also doctored? to me the work seems to be of the same hand. no doubt its a vintage rawlings cards shirt, i have my suspicions of the mint numbers and name on the back. thats just my opinion. Jeff

sportscentury
11-03-2006, 08:56 PM
And ISUbirdjersey, it might ring a bell that another reason you were banned is because you have posted under, broken the rules under and been banned under the following names.

apujols04
youngjerseycollector
david-a
davida
and of course my favorite youareajerk

David, have I missed any?
Eric


"ebayautos" was used and was banned within minutes.

Eric,

I agree with Chris/Staindsox here that you are one patient, understanding guy. I've said this a hundred times myself. And I'll say the same thing about Chris Cavalier. I don't know how you guys have done it.

With that said, HOW CAN IT POSSIBLY BE THAT DAVID ARCHIBALD IS NOT PERMANENTLY BANNED FROM GAME USED FORUM?!?!

Is it me, or is this pure insanity? I just don't get it. Why would he be allowed to cause more trouble on the forum? Why would Steve/Vintage do business with him? How do people like this survive in this hobby? It's simply mind-boggling. How many times does a guy have to be EXPOSED?

Andrew Lang/AllStarsPlus has suggested that the forum start using IDVerify. I am the last person to try to say how the forum should be run; I will reiterate again that I don't know how you guys do it and I could not run it NEARLY as well (and would probably drink poison after only a week of trying). But I do think that Andrew's idea is a good one and certainly worth considering. We run into this nonsense all the time ... and it is an incredible drain on, and waste of, our time and energy.

Reid

Eric
11-03-2006, 11:35 PM
"ebayautos" was used and was banned within minutes.

You are absolutely correct. Add it to the list.
Eric

ISUbirdjersey
11-04-2006, 12:26 AM
I talked to Steve from Vintage Authentics today. He told me that when he first sent the jersey back to me, he told me that if I ever wanted to reconsign it then the 62 had to be removed. I have told Steve the same thing I will type here. I do not recall him ever telling me that. I promise you I do not recall hearing that. If I had known that, I would have removed the 62 instead of VA. We did not discuuss this. However, after this thread reappeared and I made a few comments, then Steve called me about the 62 being removed. He said his intention was to not decieve anyone in the future and letting them sell it as a 1962 jersey.

I said that I understood the decision and since it was already done, I would support the decision based on his explanation of not wanting the hobby to be deceived. I understand from the experts that the Musial 62 chain stitching is highly unusual. Howver, I also agree that taking out the stitching could have possibly altered a unique game worn example with authentic stitching. Steve has let me know he felt the stitching was fraudulently placed there. If he is 100% correct, I agree the Musial stitching would be fraudulently stitched too. The original owner may have be tricked in the 1980's into buying it as a 1962 jersey. Who knows? I will agree with the poster who said to not alter the jersey in case the stitching is authentic. The 62 outline is still visible so I think the Musial stitching should be left there. I guess whoever buys the jersey gets to make the next call. I understand what VA did and their reasoning. I do not remember ever agreeing to that decision prior to the 62 being removed. I did not notice it was removed until a few days ago. What is done is done. If the stitching is all fraudulent, then the Musial should be removed as well. MEARS has proven that new info is often found. Maybe there is a photo to match the jersey. MEARS authenticated the jersey as at least an authentic cardinals blank mock up. I don't know what they will say once they rexamine it. I wish more info existed about the jersey. There is no info about the jersey I have not told. I would like to know if the actual restored lettering and numbering are from the time period. That would surely give us more insight.

Lastly, I am shocked to see that people do not seem to mind questioning me even though my posts and other posts related to my jerseys were obviously edited. You can't see the two sides to the story which show why I acted off in the first place. That apujols04 username was banned and many posts made by me and others were edited by Eric and/or removed by Eric. That is a fact and makes this a situation i will not argue about anymore. Those who did not read the edited posts I made (with my original user ID before I was banned) are not able to clearly see what happened. In addition, the removal of text in other members posts was similar to what Martha Stewart was accused of doing to her computer files. The evidence of what was typed to me by more than a few of the members of this forum was deleted to protect people from libel. I think this included BTPH who has a selective memory about how he handled this situation and the attacks he made against me many months ago. BTPH, didn't some of your accusations get edited by the moderator as well? The obvious fact is that I was banned and I came back and posted to clarify my stance on what was being said about me. I was banned so I had to read comments about me that I was not allowed to answer them unless I created a new user id. Eric, you cannot sucessfully dispute that last sentence I typed. I was banned and not allowed to reply to attacks against me. I did break forum rules by registering new IDs to reply to the attacks and therefore I deserved to be banned. Since he is still allowing me to post and has been, I have taken that as a peace offering. Many months ago, Eric promised to send me new forum rules (I still have the email) and in order for me to continue posting, I had to agree to the new rules he had for me. Many weeks later, after not hearing from him, I started posting with ISUbirdjersey as I knew this jersey, me, and the ISU Bird jersey were going to be sent to V.A. and would be discussed on this forum. I wanted to prove to Eric I could post responsibly and not break any more rules. Hopefully, I am doing that.

ISUbirdjersey
11-04-2006, 12:39 AM
With that said, HOW CAN IT POSSIBLY BE THAT DAVID ARCHIBALD IS NOT PERMANENTLY BANNED FROM GAME USED FORUM?!?!

Is it me, or is this pure insanity? I just don't get it. Why would he be allowed to cause more trouble on the forum? Why would Steve/Vintage do business with him? How do people like this survive in this hobby? It's simply mind-boggling. How many times does a guy have to be EXPOSED?

As for the comment above I can't do anything but laugh while trying to respond. I have not caused any more true trouble. Vintage Authentics is doing business and accepting quality consignments from me. They have been for the last year. I have consigned over 30 items with them in the last year. Total sales for my consigments have been for over $30,000. That is a $10,000 comission for them (why I need an auction house) and since they are in business to make money off of authentic memorabilia, they haven't turned down consignments of authentic memorabilia from me.I survive in the hobby by reading. This includes the GUU forum, SCD, Beckett,etc. I educate myself, find authentic memorabilia that can withstand the critics, and then I hustle my ass off. Just like I do when trying to turn a 70 into a 67 with a few birdies coming in. I focus on what I am trying to do and do it to the best of my abilities. I send everything I sell to quality 3rd party authenticators and graders. I studied the hobby since I was 8 years old and I realize that people like me survive in the hobby by learning the market. If I own the #23/23 BGS 9.5 Lebron james Exquisite Collection card, it doesn't matter what you think about me. Ijust matters if you want what I am selling bad enough. I have learned what people want to collect and what they will pay top dollar for. Thanks the trick to survival in this hobby. I am sorry you are mind boggled. I hate to be the cause of that. I have been exposed? Exposed as what? A 24 year old in an older man's hobby? I have not been exposed for selling fake items because I try to study what I am buyiing, make sure it matches known examplars,and then additionally rely on the same authenticators that the auction houses rely on. What more can I say for you GUU members? Just let me know what you need? If I am not banned, I am not running away from your concerns or questions.

ISUbirdjersey
11-04-2006, 12:50 AM
Lastly, please do not bother with your comments about my grammar, spelling, etc. If I am going to sit here and reply to all these questions, I don't feel the need to spell check and grammar check my posts. You should all be smart enough to get the general idea of I typed. Sure, you can try to make fun of my and accuse me of not being smart enough to spell or type. That is fine with me. I was typing what I was thinking and I notice that certain things I typed are not grammatically correct. Please try to successfully navigate through those parts of my posts in order to notice what point (s) I was trying to get across. If not done so already, I will address any specific questions forum members have. Thanks for allowing me to respond to this thread.

both-teams-played-hard
11-04-2006, 01:47 AM
ISUbirdjersey,
I have been collecting jerseys for over 20 years. I realize that quality game-used jerseys can be found in unusual places. I often "stumble" across jerseys from non-collectors. When you originally posted, almost a year ago, I thought you had made a similar discovery. Your story sounded possible. At first glance, your jersey photos looked legitimate. I had no reason to doubt you. You NEVER said you got these jerseys on eBay. You never told the story that the auctions were ended early. And yes, I did insult you in the past. And yes, you deserved the insults. I originally offered my opinion, which you asked for. It sounds like you have made some nice profits. Since you have shared detail after detail of your jersey "find", why don't you share the name of the eBay seller? I now choose to refrain from posting on this subject. I think Vintage Authentics should direct the winning bidder of the Musial jersey to this thread. Wouldn't that be the "right thing" to do?

In the words of the immortal 'Sheed:
It was a good game. Both teams played hard. Good night and god bless.

sportscentury
11-04-2006, 09:12 AM
I now choose to refrain from posting on this subject.
I will no longer post on this subject either. Enough of my time has been wasted trying to figure out if David has more GUF userids or "game used" jerseys in his collection.


I think Vintage Authentics should direct the winning bidder of the Musial jersey to this thread. Wouldn't that be the "right thing" to do?
YES.

Steve Jensen
11-04-2006, 09:31 AM
BTPH- You are correct, that is absolutely the right thing to do and we will be doing so. I am monitoring that lot closely and will make sure each and every bidder knows exactly what they are bidding on. I've updated the lot description on our website accordingly.

Thanks,
Steve

sportscentury
11-04-2006, 11:46 AM
As a general response to Steve/Vintage, it is nice to see a major auction house participating in the forum and responding to forum members' issues and concerns. Steve, I think your willingness to be a part of these discussions can only help your business.

Reid

earlywynnfan
11-04-2006, 05:07 PM
I've just spent 20 minutes of my life reading this thread, and all I can say is:

BRING BACK KEN GOLEM!!

The threads revolving around him were much, much funnier for the reader.

(I do give Steve a big pat on the back for coming here and clearly answering any questions posted to him, even though he has to know some people out there are just waiting for him to screw up so they can jump all over him.)

Ken S
earlywynnfan5@hotmail.com

ISUbirdjersey
11-04-2006, 05:51 PM
Should V.A. auction the jersey or send it back to me so I can pay for additional MEARS research and evaluation?

ISUbirdjersey
11-14-2006, 10:50 AM
David/ISUbirdjersey,

Based on the recent posts from Eric and Steve Jensen, it would seem that you have a very unique way of remembering and presenting history.

Can you make sense of all of this for us? I need help here ... as your posts (including the ones you made under your banned userid) just don't add up for me. Please do not misinterpret my post as an attempt to "bait" you. I intend nothing of the sort. Clearly, I'm not the only one utterly baffled here (e.g., Warren, Steve, Eric, Howard, Rudy, Chris, and others all seem to share in at least some form of confusion, if not amazement).

Reid

I would like to make another comment about this due to Reid's recent post in anothwer thread. I have 1 story about this Musial jersey and it is obvious that Steve's version is making me look like a liar. i will clarly present my discussion with Steve.

When Steve told me months ago the jersey failed as playing day Musila jersey, I wanted to have the jersey back so I think about what I wamnted to do with it. Steve claims when we talked that he told me if I ever wanted to consign the jersey, it would not be auctioned as a playing day jersey and the 62 would have to be removed. I do not recall that sentence ever being said to me but it is possibleI forgot due to being distracted I guess. I just don't recall agreeing to that but I don't want to dispute what Steve is saying. I just don't know.

What remains a fact is that when I sent the jersey back a second time, it was not RE-DISCUSSED. I had no knowledge the 62 was going to be removed as I did not and do not remember the first conversation Steve says we had about the 62. With that being said, I did not notice the 62 was removed until someone else recently brought it to my intention. I wanted to make it clear I did not do it as I know how the GUU members look at changing a jersey. Once it was done and this thread reappeared, I did have a phone conversation with Steve. he called to discuss the issue and he is well aware I said i had no knowledge he was going to remove the 62. I understand why some people don't think it should have been removed (because of the style of the Birds, it was obviously not a 62 jersey anyway), but I decided that since it was already removed, I would side with Steve and not get upset about the removal. Steve had good intentions by removing the 62 from the jersey so who am I to get upset. I simply told him that I would agree with his reasoning and that I too do not want anybody to get ripped off.

I have been attacked for not telling people originally that the Musial and Martin jersey were on ebay for a short time (Less than 24 hours). My reasoning behind this was that the completed auctions were still visible and I was not interested in telling people my source. The couple has 3 more game used items of significance and we all know that if I told who had the jerseys originally on eBay, they would be harrassed by members of this forum for many different reasons. If you knew where 5 1952 Topps Mantle cards were and the owners were dealing with you, why would you tell anyone else who the people were. That would be stupid. I think attacking me for not saying the two jerseys were originally on ebay is ignorant and uncalled for as that information was not important. That information has nothing to do with a (BTPH) "broke Sherlock Holmes."

sportscentury
11-15-2006, 12:25 PM
What was the final outcome of this?

both-teams-played-hard
11-15-2006, 01:42 PM
I think attacking me for not saying the two jerseys were originally on ebay is ignorant and uncalled for as that information was not important. That information has nothing to do with a (BTPH) "broke Sherlock Holmes."

http://img400.imageshack.us/img400/5300/brokesherlockcopywk0.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

Other ideas: "out-of-work Magnum P.I."
"Columbo on welfare"
"Skid Row Sam Spade"

THIS really is my last reply to this thread, starting...........NOW!

ISUbirdjersey
11-15-2006, 05:10 PM
Other ideas: "out-of-work Magnum P.I."
"Columbo on welfare"
"Skid Row Sam Spade"

THIS really is my last reply to this thread, starting...........NOW!

[content removed] i have yet to have one person tell me why I should have had to tell you or anyone else that i found the Musial and Martin jerseys on eBay. It doesn't matter.

ISUbirdjersey
11-15-2006, 05:32 PM
What was the final outcome of this?

[content removed] you put all the stock in Steve Jensen's side of the story whcih made it look like I was not being up front. My recent explanation about the conversation between Steve and I (about the Musial jersey situation) has not been disputed by Steve for a reason. That is because I am telling the truth and it makes sense.

Additionally, to the posters [content removed] who suggested the winning bidder be referred to this thread. I can tell that suggestion was intended to mean so that the winning bidder could judge me and my story themselves. Your intention with that suggestion (which Steve agreed to do by posting that he too thought the winning bidder should see this thread) looks to me like it is supposed to make me look bad. To tell you the truth I would be more that happy to converse with the winning bidder. [content removed]

ISUbirdjersey
11-15-2006, 05:36 PM
Chris, please allow my comments and their comments to remain in this post. [content removed]. I am not baiting or attacking anyone, just responding to their concerns. The Musial jersey is as is. I agree that I have no knowledge of Musial being an official coach. Howver, he perfectly may well have been a honorary instructor (or coach) at times. Jeff Scott has informed me that there is or was a post-career Musial Home jersey on display at the Cardinals Museum. So there is a history of a post career Musial jersey. I would guess he wore that jersey while at a Cardinals game. I guess that's what Lou thinks my jersey is. A post career coaches jersey.

ChrisCavalier
11-15-2006, 06:41 PM
Chris, please allow my comments and their comments to remain in this post. [content removed]. I am not baiting or attacking anyone, just responding to their concerns. The Musial jersey is as is. I agree that I have no knowledge of Musial being an official coach. Howver, he perfectly may well have been a honorary instructor (or coach) at times. Jeff Scott has informed me that there is or was a post-career Musial Home jersey on display at the Cardinals Museum. So there is a history of a post career Musial jersey. I would guess he wore that jersey while at a Cardinals game. I guess that's what Lou thinks my jersey is. A post career coaches jersey.
Hello David,

I just sent you a private email. Please check your email box. I will address any questions you have privately. This forum is not the place to unleash unfounded accusations. I have been very patient with you given your previous history on the forum but my patience is running out.

I will be happy to address any questions you have via email. In fact, we had an email correspondence yesterday where the forum rules were made clear and I explained the protocols for any instances where you feel they are not being applied. Unfortunately, you have decided the very next day that these rules and protocols do not need to be followed.

Therefore, given your failure to abide in the forum rules, you will need to email me at this point as your account has been suspended.

Sincerely,
Chris Cavalier

sportscentury
11-16-2006, 03:25 PM
Chris, please allow my comments and their comments to remain in this post. [content removed]. I am not baiting or attacking anyone, just responding to their concerns. The Musial jersey is as is. I agree that I have no knowledge of Musial being an official coach. Howver, he perfectly may well have been a honorary instructor (or coach) at times. Jeff Scott has informed me that there is or was a post-career Musial Home jersey on display at the Cardinals Museum. So there is a history of a post career Musial jersey. I would guess he wore that jersey while at a Cardinals game. I guess that's what Lou thinks my jersey is. A post career coaches jersey.

Steve/Vintage,

I find this all to be very confusing and, based on some emails that I've received (including one today), I know I am not the only one. The new theory that Musial wore this as an honorary coach is, although creative, not particularly compelling. David speculated that Lou thinks his altered Musial jersey is a "post career coaches jersey." Is this true? Is this what Lou thinks? Are you able to post the LOA so that we can see what Lou actually does think this jersey is? I'm genuinely befuddled by all of the different stories about how this jersey came to be, how much of it (if any) is real, how much it is original versus altered, what parts were added after the fact, and what the jersey actually represents.

Thanks very much - you've be a great help in clearing this matter up. And, regardless of some of the most recent posts, I think you are doing the right thing by directing the buyer to this thread. Thanks for setting a good example ... I look forward to seeing the documentation by Lou.

Reid