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View Full Version : Hof Induction On Wednesday.who Doyou Want In



dirtyla2000
01-04-2010, 07:26 PM
I Wantandre Dawson And I Want Him In As An Expo,both Reasons Are As A Fan And As Acollector!

zookerman182
01-04-2010, 07:39 PM
Robby Alomar needs to get in.

NYCrulesU
01-04-2010, 07:50 PM
Alomar, Blyleven & Dawson. In that order.

Blyleven should have been inducted years ago. It's a shame.

Rob L
01-04-2010, 07:52 PM
Blyleven!!!

BoneRubbedBat
01-04-2010, 07:57 PM
Who do I want to go in? Dawson, Blyleven, Alomar, McGriff, and McGwire

Who do I think will make it? Blyleven.

legaleagle92481
01-04-2010, 08:07 PM
In order:

1. Roberto Alomar
2. Barry Larkin
3. Andre Dawson
4. Fred McGriff
5. Jack Morris

I realize that only Alomar is likely to make it this year and that the later two will probably never make it but to me these are the only eligible guys who should be hall of famers and are not. McGwire was a one dimensonal player who's one dimenson was enhanced who knows how much by the steroids and andro he used. Lee Smith, Harold Baines and Bert B. were stat accumulators who were never considered great in their time. Edgar Martinez, Don Mattingly, Alan Trammall and Dale Murphy were very good players who just did not have enough great years.

Manram
01-04-2010, 08:09 PM
I would like to see Blyleven and Alomar make it

NYCrulesU
01-04-2010, 08:28 PM
Now and until the day I pass, I will laugh at the phrase "stat accumulator".

Isn't that what every player does? They accumulate stats over their career. Whether it be 5 yrs or 25 yrs. Some players are gifted enough to amass certain numbers in 15-18 yr careers, while it may take another player 22 years to amass near identical numbers.

What's the difference? Really.


Is Rickey not worthy of 3000 hits because it took him 25 or so years?

Would Biggio had made the HOF without 3000 hits, that took him 18 years to get?

Is Nolan Ryan's 5,714 K's any less impressive even though it took him 27 seasons to amass those? In which he ONLY won 324 games in that same time.

Clemens took 24 seasons to get 354 wins. Does that make Ryan any less of a HOF'er?



The term "stat accumulator" is ridiculous, when used to argue that a payer should not be in the HOF. Stats are stats. You reach a certain number (300 W's, 500 hr's, 3000 hit's) and you are, SHOULD BE, in. No matter how many years it takes you to do it. Period.

justinwc80
01-04-2010, 08:55 PM
If Barry Larkin doesn't make it in it will be a travesty. Greater than Ozzie Smith!

tjm5711
01-04-2010, 09:02 PM
In order:

1. Roberto Alomar
2. Barry Larkin
3. Andre Dawson
4. Fred McGriff
5. Jack Morris

I realize that only Alomar is likely to make it this year and that the later two will probably never make it but to me these are the only eligible guys who should be hall of famers and are not. McGwire was a one dimensonal player who's one dimenson was enhanced who knows how much by the steroids and andro he used. Lee Smith, Harold Baines and Bert B. were stat accumulators who were never considered great in their time. Edgar Martinez, Don Mattingly, Alan Trammall and Dale Murphy were very good players who just did not have enough great years.



I'm primarily a Cub fan, and I watched many of Andre Dawson's years with them. Granted I didn't see his earlier years with the Expos before his knees got bad. but, I look at his numbers and just don't see why he should be in. I think the fact that there are so many guys in the 500 home run club now, and that he didn't come close to that hurts him a lot. Also the fact he did absolutely nothing in the post season and has no WS rings, you have to rely heavily on his stats. Other than his 1987 MVP year, and his early stolen base numbers, nothing really separates him. He was a career .279 hitter, and he never really combined any serious power numbers with those great stolen base totals. Anyways, I'd love for somebody to make a good argument for why he should so emphatically be in. The only two I see that truly deserve to be in are :

>Barry Larkin
>Jack Morris

Both put up great numbers and were on some of the greatest teams of their era !

tjm5711
01-04-2010, 09:07 PM
The one truly remarkable thing about Dawson I forgot to mention was how he played for years in pain from his knee problems. And he continued to put up very solid numbers. A lot of the time playing on those horrible artificial surfaces of the 80's.

harpt
01-04-2010, 09:13 PM
If Barry Larkin doesn't make it in it will be a travesty. Greater than Ozzie Smith!

WOW!! Seriously?? Ozzie was a better defender (one of the all-time greatest) and had more hits (in the same number of seasons) than Larkin. Plus all those stolen bases and World Series rings.

I know you're a Cincy guy so I get it...I am always clamoring for Ted Simmons too (more hits than any other catcher).

justinwc80
01-04-2010, 09:26 PM
Larkin/Smith 19 seasons
162 game avgs Larkin .295 avg, Smith .262, HR 15 to 2, RBI 71 to 50
Total career errors Larkin 235, Smith 281
Larkin won MVP, Smith finished 2nd once
Smith had 15 all star games, Larkin 12

Obviously stats don't tell the whole story but we all have to be honest and realize that Smith wasn't the best SS in the game for many of the all star appearances. Larkin never had the flash of Ozzie but was a wonder in the field and revolutionized the position. I can respect an argument either way, but I think the stats support my opinion. Love to hear other thoughts.

33bird
01-04-2010, 09:29 PM
Bert Behome Byleven
Jack Morris.
Bert's a no brainer. I think Jack should get in for his accomplishments combined with his Rings. I think he has 4, and he was a pretty big part of 3/4.
I'd love to see Larkin get in, but I'm not sure he warrants it. Maybe I'm wrong.

justinwc80
01-04-2010, 09:36 PM
Greg,
You're killing me (especially for a Reds fan :)), he compares so much better than so many HOF players and shortstops. The only knock on him is that he missed alot of games due to injuries, but he performed well enough over so many years I can't see any reason he shouldn't be a first ballot HOFer.
Great article by Jayson Stark
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/hof10/columns/story?columnist=stark_jayson&id=4777032
But these conversations are why I love sports

33bird
01-04-2010, 09:53 PM
Yea, I know. Really, I need to study it more before I say that about Larkin. I'm more of a 70s Reds guy, so my opinion about Larkin is worth my usuall 2 cents....

STLHAMMER32
01-04-2010, 10:14 PM
I'm primarily a Cub fan, and I watched many of Andre Dawson's years with them. Granted I didn't see his earlier years with the Expos before his knees got bad. but, I look at his numbers and just don't see why he should be in. I think the fact that there are so many guys in the 500 home run club now, and that he didn't come close to that hurts him a lot. Also the fact he did absolutely nothing in the post season and has no WS rings, you have to rely heavily on his stats. Other than his 1987 MVP year, and his early stolen base numbers, nothing really separates him. He was a career .279 hitter, and he never really combined any serious power numbers with those great stolen base totals. Anyways, I'd love for somebody to make a good argument for why he should so emphatically be in. The only two I see that truly deserve to be in are :

>Barry Larkin
>Jack Morris

Both put up great numbers and were on some of the greatest teams of their era !

I am a Cardinals fan and I strongly feel that Dawson is a Hall of Fame. If Dawson was healthy who knows what his stats could have been but even with the bad knees his accomplishments are Hall worthy in my opinion... His character is Hall worthy and that will become more and more important I feel as it seems public opinion is dictating who gets in...it is no longer about stats completely whether justified or not.....I will do my best to make a case for him.

An 8-time gold glove outfielder with one of the strongest arms in baseball history to go along with the glove.

An 8 time all-star, Rookie of the year, MVP on a last place team.

400/300 Club....Dawson is one of only three players with 400 or more home runs and 300 or more stolen bases. Other two in the club Willie Mays and Barry Bonds.

The Hawk was once intentionally walked 5 times in one game..this just goes to show how respected and feared the guy was..He was one of the most dominant players of his era.

The players he played with and more importantly the ones he played against say he is no doubt a hall of famer if there ever was one.

sox83cubs84
01-04-2010, 10:19 PM
Andre Dawson...as a CUB!

Dave M.
Chicago area

tjm5711
01-04-2010, 11:03 PM
I am a Cardinals fan and I strongly feel that Dawson is a Hall of Fame. If Dawson was healthy who knows what his stats could have been but even with the bad knees his accomplishments are Hall worthy in my opinion... His character is Hall worthy and that will become more and more important I feel as it seems public opinion is dictating who gets in...it is no longer about stats completely whether justified or not.....I will do my best to make a case for him.

An 8-time gold glove outfielder with one of the strongest arms in baseball history to go along with the glove.

An 8 time all-star, Rookie of the year, MVP on a last place team.

400/300 Club....Dawson is one of only three players with 400 or more home runs and 300 or more stolen bases. Other two in the club Willie Mays and Barry Bonds.

The Hawk was once intentionally walked 5 times in one game..this just goes to show how respected and feared the guy was..He was one of the most dominant players of his era.

The players he played with and more importantly the ones he played against say he is no doubt a hall of famer if there ever was one.



Yeah, but to even put what somebody MIGHT have done IF their knees weren't chronically injured into the equation is just not right. I don't have a huge problem with him going in. I just think he was as good(and not much better) than a lot of players who have never gotten in.

tjm5711
01-04-2010, 11:06 PM
If Barry Larkin doesn't make it in it will be a travesty. Greater than Ozzie Smith!

Being a Cub fan, The last thing I want to do is agree with a Reds fan.LOL BUT, I must say. "AMEN BROTHER" LOL. Larkin, was an AWESOME shortstop. He was a feared clutch hitter, and it would be a crime if he doesn't get in on the first ballot !

STLHAMMER32
01-04-2010, 11:18 PM
Yeah, but to even put what somebody MIGHT have done IF their knees weren't chronically injured into the equation is just not right. I don't have a huge problem with him going in. I just think he was as good(and not much better) than a lot of players who have never gotten in.

It should be noted that the guy was playing with two terrible knees because some people may not know..its not the reason he should get in but worth pointing out. There are some people out that you could argue should be in more but you could also argue there is some in already that Dawson deserves to be in over.

Dawson was an 8 time gold glove outfielder and was a 400 HR guy while stealing 300 bases. That is hall of fame credentials. Add in the fact he was revered as a teammate and his opponents had great respect and fear the guy..he deserves in.

All legit numbers without the worry of altered numbers by PED's

tjm5711
01-04-2010, 11:34 PM
It should be noted that the guy was playing with two terrible knees because some people may not know..its not the reason he should get in but worth pointing out. There are some people out that you could argue should be in more but you could also argue there is some in already that Dawson deserves to be in over.

Dawson was an 8 time gold glove outfielder and was a 400 HR guy while stealing 300 bases. That is hall of fame credentials. Add in the fact he was revered as a teammate and his opponents had great respect and fear the guy..he deserves in.

All legit numbers without the worry of altered numbers by PED's



I just think a player with zero WS appearances, and a .189 postseason average should have more solid lifetime stats. An average closer to .300,3,000 hits,500 homeruns. You bring up good points, and give a strong view. Just the way I see it.

STLHAMMER32
01-04-2010, 11:45 PM
I just think a player with zero WS appearances, and a .189 postseason average should have more solid lifetime stats. An average closer to .300,3,000 hits,500 homeruns. You bring up good points, and give a strong view. Just the way I see it.

Dawson was not blessed to be on winning teams I can't hold that against him. As far as the big milestones 3000 and 500....they certainly look nice but Dawson was not too far offfrom these milestones..There are some guys that achieve one or the other and are "locks"..Dawson was not far from either really and yet was a Silver Slugger who possessed one of the best arms to play the game and a gold glove. He was a well-rounded player who could do it all.

If you want every Hall of Famer to have a .300 batting average, 3,000 hits 500 hrs....then we might have to take hall of famers out and only elect very very few players in the future..

Dawson was one of very few TRUE 5-tool players to play the game. His 400/300 was a feat that Ruth, Aaron, Dimaggio, Williams, Musial, Cobb and tons of other greats could not achieve I'll take that over one key milestone any day.

tjm5711
01-04-2010, 11:53 PM
Dawson was not blessed to be on winning teams I can't hold that against him. As far as the big milestones 3000 and 500....they certainly look nice but Dawson was not too far offfrom these milestones..There are some guys that achieve one or the other and are "locks"..Dawson was not far from either really and yet was a Silver Slugger who possessed one of the best arms to play the game and a gold glove. He was a well-rounded player who could do it all.

If you want every Hall of Famer to have a .300 batting average, 3,000 hits 500 hrs....then we might have to take hall of famers out and only elect very very few players in the future..

Dawson was one of very few TRUE 5-tool players to play the game. His 400/300 was a feat that Ruth, Aaron, Dimaggio, Williams, Musial, Cobb and tons of other greats could not achieve I'll take that over one key milestone any day.



I never said I wanted EVERY Hall of Famer to have those numbers. Like I said, you made very solid points. You can debate for days who should, and shouldn't be in the hall. And in my opinion Andre Dawson, shouldn't get in. And I really doubt he ever will !

STLHAMMER32
01-04-2010, 11:58 PM
I never said I wanted EVERY Hall of Famer to have those numbers. Like I said, you made very solid points. You can debate for days who should, and shouldn't be in the hall. And in my opinion Andre Dawson, shouldn't get in. And I really doubt he ever will !

I would have to disagree I think this is the year the Hawk gets in.

STLHAMMER32
01-05-2010, 12:04 AM
this article says it all.....

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/hof10/columns/story?columnist=kurkjian_tim&id=4776214&campaign=rss&source=MLBHeadlines

tjm5711
01-05-2010, 12:12 AM
I would have to disagree I think this is the year the Hawk gets in.

Now that's a question that will be answered soon !

STLHAMMER32
01-05-2010, 12:20 AM
Now that's a question that will be answered soon !

Yes it will! I am hoping that he gets in. Every year I defend my reasoning of why he should be in... but this is the first year I have predicted he will actually be voted in. I can see him signing his name with H.O.F 2010 already...we'll see.

jetersbatboy
01-05-2010, 02:09 AM
What about a 6x All-Star, 9 Gold Gloves, 3 Silver Sluggers, 1 MVP and 1 Batting Title. A lifetime .307 avg. 2153 Hits, 222 HR, 1099 RBIs. All done in a injury shorten, 13 seasons carrer. Also considered by most a the best 1st baseman in MLB for a decade??????

dirtyla2000
01-05-2010, 03:44 AM
[quote=tjm5711;178111]I'm primarily a Cub fan, and I watched many of Andre Dawson's years with them. Granted I didn't see his earlier years with the Expos before his knees got bad. but, I look at his numbers and just don't see why he should be in. I think the fact that there are so many guys in the 500 home run club now, and that he didn't come close to that hurts him a lot. Also the fact he did absolutely nothing in the post season and has no WS rings, you have to rely heavily on his stats. Other than his 1987 MVP year, and his early stolen base numbers, nothing really separates him. He was a career .279 hitter, and he never really combined any serious power numbers with those great stolen base totals. Anyways, I'd love for somebody to make a good argument for why he
500hr club is full of juicers,Dawson was a class act and dominated his position for a long time! As for Alomar,spitting in an Umps face is unforgiveable.Even though there was an apology this guy is a bad role model.

geoff
01-05-2010, 03:59 AM
I want to see Robbie Alomar as He is One of my all Time Favorite Orioles And I think one of The Top 2nd Baseman in The Last 15 Years or so.

NYCrulesU
01-05-2010, 04:06 AM
What about a 6x All-Star, 9 Gold Gloves, 3 Silver Sluggers, 1 MVP and 1 Batting Title. A lifetime .307 avg. 2153 Hits, 222 HR, 1099 RBIs. All done in a injury shorten, 13 seasons carrer. Also considered by most a the best 1st baseman in MLB for a decade??????


Mattingly, as much as I liked him, is no HOF'er.

legaleagle92481
01-05-2010, 09:39 AM
Now and until the day I pass, I will laugh at the phrase "stat accumulator".

Isn't that what every player does? They accumulate stats over their career. Whether it be 5 yrs or 25 yrs. Some players are gifted enough to amass certain numbers in 15-18 yr careers, while it may take another player 22 years to amass near identical numbers.

What's the difference? Really.


Is Rickey not worthy of 3000 hits because it took him 25 or so years?

Would Biggio had made the HOF without 3000 hits, that took him 18 years to get?

Is Nolan Ryan's 5,714 K's any less impressive even though it took him 27 seasons to amass those? In which he ONLY won 324 games in that same time.

Clemens took 24 seasons to get 354 wins. Does that make Ryan any less of a HOF'er?



The term "stat accumulator" is ridiculous, when used to argue that a payer should not be in the HOF. Stats are stats. You reach a certain number (300 W's, 500 hr's, 3000 hit's) and you are, SHOULD BE, in. No matter how many years it takes you to do it. Period.

To clarify I use the term "stat accumulator" to refer to a player who was not a dominant, best at his position type player whose candidacy is based on very good numbers accumulated over a long career but who fell short of a magic number milestone like 300 wins or 500 homers. Bert B. is the prime example of this. When he pitched did anyone really and honestly view him as one of the best pitchers in baseball or more importantly as a guy who would be in the Hall someday? Or is it just now years after he threw his last pitch the numbers he accumulated over a very long career statheads are just using to justify why he should be in the Hall? In my opinion it is the later. If he had reached 300 wins I would say put him in but he did not and since he was not one of the best pitchers of his era he should stay out. Was he really better than Tommy John or Jim Kaat two guys who also had long careers with many wins but fell short of 300 and were not among the best pitchers in baseball when they played? Was he as good as Jack Morris, the undisputed ace of three world series winning teams and the best pitcher of the 1980's?

vballGuy
01-05-2010, 10:44 AM
Robbie Alomar all the way!

ironmanfan
01-05-2010, 10:53 AM
What about a 6x All-Star, 9 Gold Gloves, 3 Silver Sluggers, 1 MVP and 1 Batting Title. A lifetime .307 avg. 2153 Hits, 222 HR, 1099 RBIs. All done in a injury shorten, 13 seasons carrer. Also considered by most a the best 1st baseman in MLB for a decade??????

a first baseman with only 222 career Home Runs?...come on..if Mattingly had played for the Royals or Brewers, no one would have cared (I know the injuries argument)

Hall of Good (not Fame)

tjm5711
01-05-2010, 11:14 AM
Excellent point, about how the 500 Club is full of juicers. What a stain it will forever leave on Baseball. When you're talking about all-time records being tainted, it really doesn't get more sacred than that. The Hawk was a class act. way more so, than Robbie Alomar. But the fact that Alomar put up those outstanding numbers as a Second baseman will be hard for him not to get in. It was one mistake, and granted you can't keep a guy out for just that. You have to admit, it was a bit humerous.(in a twisted sort of way) But as far as role-models go, I totally agree with you !

bigtruck260
01-05-2010, 01:46 PM
Clemens took 24 seasons to get 354 wins. Does that make Ryan any less of a HOF'er?

Totally agree with you about accumulation. In some cases, it means nothing. Clemens did get his wins faster - and he also played for some great teams - while Nolan Ryan was winning 20 games and striking out the entire league while his team was in last place....it's all relative. Both were dominant. No comment on Clemens chances.

As far as Larkin/Smith...Barry was a much better offensive machine. He should be in the Hall - no doubt. Ozzie's greatness came from being the acrobatic figurehead for the speed demon 1980's Cardinals...one of the better teams in franchise history. Ozzie's popularity was HUGE and transcended the game, which in most cases is what the Hall is all about.

He was the number one vote getter in the ASG for years based on his defense alone.

tjm5711
01-05-2010, 01:54 PM
Clemens took 24 seasons to get 354 wins. Does that make Ryan any less of a HOF'er?

Totally agree with you about accumulation. In some cases, it means nothing. Clemens did get his wins faster - and he also played for some great teams - while Nolan Ryan was winning 20 games and striking out the entire league while his team was in last place....it's all relative. Both were dominant. No comment on Clemens chances.

As far as Larkin/Smith...Barry was a much better offensive machine. He should be in the Hall - no doubt. Ozzie's greatness came from being the acrobatic figurehead for the speed demon 1980's Cardinals...one of the better teams in franchise history. Ozzie's popularity was HUGE and transcended the game, which in most cases is what the Hall is all about.

He was the number one vote getter in the ASG for years based on his defense alone.


I couldn't agree with you more. Ozzie Smith was the face of the Cardinals' Championship brand of baseball in the mid 80's.(winning with speed on astroturf) He was a tremendous fan favorite, but Larkin was easily a better all-around player. The only knock Barry was that he was injury prone. But he still managed to put a tremendous career together in between those stints on the DL.

whatupyos
01-05-2010, 01:55 PM
Realistically: Andre, Smith, Bert.


Alomar?!?! Are you people for real? Come on!! To me that is the ultimate joke.

gingi79
01-05-2010, 02:26 PM
Topic is who we wanted in and in that case, Dale Murphy all the way. Played with some truly "bleh" Braves teams and was the best player in baseball for a few years. Then he got injured and old.

The stat accumulator debate will rage forever. Spending 20+ years just not being hurt and putting up modest numbers just to get to the magic 300 wins or 500 HRs or 3000 Hits just means you were a mediocre player that was lucky enough to play a childs game for two decades. The Hall of Reasonably good to great players will induct you though because those are the criteria. Like it or not, if you play 30 years and get 100 hits a season, you are a HOFer 5 years later.

It's all subjective anyway. The roles for players have changed as the sport has. Who would have thought watching MLB in 1981 that a natural shortstop would be considered the best all around and offensive player in baseball? Had the Steroid Issue not arisen, who wouldn't have unanimously elected A-Rod 5 years after he retired?

Should we hold players of yesteryear accountable for their lower numbers because today's stars are so much better? Will the cloud of Steroid Use taint players chances because they were suspected?

Or worse, will the 2nd and 3rd tier players be elected simply because they hit .270-389 hrs-2300 hits but naturally?

ldonley
01-05-2010, 03:04 PM
I don't know if I would consider a hall call for Alomar an 'ultimate joke'.

I don't think he will get in because of personality issues (Hirschbeck) and the fact he tended to play short stints on multiple teams.

But it's traditionally tough for second basemen to get in the hall even when their careers are played on a single team. If I recall he was selected as an AS more than any other second basemen (tied with Fox), career .300 hitter, over 2700 hits, and was a monster player during his 5 year stint with the Jays, 3 years in Baltimore, and 3 years in Cleveland. Tended to be clutch in his post-season appearances as well. If I managed in the 90's, I would have penciled him in for 2B on my dream team, and I would vote for him now. But that won't happen, unfortunately, more than any other on field accomplishment, people will remember him turning and spitting in an umpire's face.

harpt
01-05-2010, 04:06 PM
I don't know if I would consider a hall call for Alomar an 'ultimate joke'.

I don't think he will get in because of personality issues (Hirschbeck) and the fact he tended to play short stints on multiple teams.

But it's traditionally tough for second basemen to get in the hall even when their careers are played on a single team. If I recall he was selected as an AS more than any other second basemen (tied with Fox), career .300 hitter, over 2700 hits, and was a monster player during his 5 year stint with the Jays, 3 years in Baltimore, and 3 years in Cleveland. Tended to be clutch in his post-season appearances as well. If I managed in the 90's, I would have penciled him in for 2B on my dream team, and I would vote for him now. But that won't happen, unfortunately, more than any other on field accomplishment, people will remember him turning and spitting in an umpire's face.

I am a white guy from the midwest, so maybe it really isn't my place to play the "race-card" here, but do you ever notice that when white people do things like that nobody seems to care? My goodness, are we really saying that Alomar should (or could) be left out of the Hall of Fame because of that incident? Bill Romanowski spit quite a loogy in another guy's face and it barely made Sportscenter. Maybe I am missing something.

bigtruck260
01-05-2010, 04:13 PM
Topic is who we wanted in and in that case, Dale Murphy all the way. Played with some truly "bleh" Braves teams and was the best player in baseball for a few years. Then he got injured and old.

The stat accumulator debate will rage forever. Spending 20+ years just not being hurt and putting up modest numbers just to get to the magic 300 wins or 500 HRs or 3000 Hits just means you were a mediocre player that was lucky enough to play a childs game for two decades. The Hall of Reasonably good to great players will induct you though because those are the criteria. Like it or not, if you play 30 years and get 100 hits a season, you are a HOFer 5 years later.

It's all subjective anyway. The roles for players have changed as the sport has. Who would have thought watching MLB in 1981 that a natural shortstop would be considered the best all around and offensive player in baseball? Had the Steroid Issue not arisen, who wouldn't have unanimously elected A-Rod 5 years after he retired?

Should we hold players of yesteryear accountable for their lower numbers because today's stars are so much better? Will the cloud of Steroid Use taint players chances because they were suspected?

Or worse, will the 2nd and 3rd tier players be elected simply because they hit .270-389 hrs-2300 hits but naturally?

Murph was a GREAT player and should be there (IMO). Loved watching him as a kid...speed and power, and though you might think those Braves teams were 'bleh" - I love Chambliss, Washington, Horner, Murph, Hubbard, Ramirez, Benedict, Neikro and Garber. He'll always be a sentimental favorite of mine. When I started playing little league, my first glove was an RBG36 Rawlings Murphy model. I still have it.

dirtyla2000
01-05-2010, 05:30 PM
Blyleven,Dawson, and I hope Raines gets closer,he was truly one of the greatest lead off hitters of all time! NO ALOMAR! I know that hofers have done worse but the spitting and personal life in disaster is just too much! I raised my kids and coached them playing ball and even though they sometimes taunted the opposition, I would have ripped them both a new one if they ever spat on someone,anyone.That goes against everything baseball stands for. I would have preferred a fist fight!

JETEFAN
01-05-2010, 06:08 PM
DON MATTINGLY for sure, if Puckett is in so should Donnie, almost identical numbers. Mattingly was one of the best players on the planet during the mid 80's and carried an awful Yankees team on his back. What other 1st baseman could carry his jock during his day?

George

mr.miracle
01-05-2010, 08:31 PM
Realistically: Andre, Smith, Bert.


Alomar?!?! Are you people for real? Come on!! To me that is the ultimate joke.


UHHHH What??? The best second baseman in the game period in the 90's and it is not even close. Other than the spitting incident, I am not sure how anyone can suggest he is not a HOF'er.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/hof10/columns/story?columnist=crasnick_jerry&id=4781279

mr.miracle
01-05-2010, 08:43 PM
And another one. Alomar was not just the best 2nd baseman in the game in the 90's he was one of the top five players at one point in all of baseball.



The First-Timers




http://assets.espn.go.com/i/headshots/mlb/players/65/2034.jpg Alomar



ROBERTO ALOMAR


There was once a time, in the mid-to-late '90s, when, if you'd asked me to name my favorite player to watch in the whole sport, I'd have answered: Robbie Alomar.
Why? Because he might have been the most creative, most stylish defensive innovator to pass through this game since Ozzie Smith. That's why. Alomar was a guy who made plays no one else made, saw things no one else saw and did it all with a Human Highlight Video flair that leaped off the field at you.
But Roberto Alomar was just as dominant on the other side of the ball. He had a 10-year period (1992 to 2001) in which he LED THE MAJOR LEAGUES in hits. And the three second basemen in history who can match his career numbers (2,724 hits/.300 average/.371 on-base pct./.443 slugging pct.) all started their careers before 1925.
So how anyone could look at Alomar's career and NOT vote for him is a bigger mystery to me than Stonehenge. If the definition of a Hall of Famer is a man who dominated his position for an extended period of time, then think about all this:
Robbie Alomar won more Gold Gloves (10) than any second baseman who ever played. He's the only second baseman in history who ever made 12 All-Star teams in a row. He finished in the top six in five MVP elections. And he and Mike Schmidt are the only two infielders in history with at least 10 Gold Gloves and four Silver Sluggers.
So aside from the disgraceful John Hirschbeck incident, there's no justification -- none -- for leaving Alomar off anyone's ballot. And we've elected players whose careers included worse blemishes than that. If you consider Roberto Alomar's full body of work and look at the entirety of his career, he's a Hall of Famer. Period.

earlywynnfan
01-05-2010, 08:47 PM
DON MATTINGLY for sure, if Puckett is in so should Donnie, almost identical numbers. Mattingly was one of the best players on the planet during the mid 80's and carried an awful Yankees team on his back. What other 1st baseman could carry his jock during his day?

George


Hmm, if this is true, why'd he only start one All Star Game? I think McGwire, Carew, Rose, Garvey, and even Al Oliver could, uh, carry his jock. If you look at the lineup of the game he DID start, he's probably the 10th best position player there!

And let's be totally honest, Pucketti isn't exactly a world-class HOFer.

Ken
earlywynnfan5@hotmail.com

earlywynnfan
01-05-2010, 08:50 PM
Blyleven,Dawson, and I hope Raines gets closer,he was truly one of the greatest lead off hitters of all time! NO ALOMAR! I know that hofers have done worse but the spitting and personal life in disaster is just too much! I raised my kids and coached them playing ball and even though they sometimes taunted the opposition, I would have ripped them both a new one if they ever spat on someone,anyone.That goes against everything baseball stands for. I would have preferred a fist fight!

How does Alomar's spitting incident compare to Raines' headfirst slide so he wouldn't break the cocaine vial in the back pocket of his uniform?

Ken
earlywynnfan5@hotmail.com

mr.miracle
01-05-2010, 08:51 PM
Here is how the ESPN gang voted. They got it right on the first two IMHO, however Bert, Larkin and Big Mac got my vote as well.



HOW ESPN VOTED

* -- first year on ballot
PLAYERBOBRGEHBJEJIJSMKPGTJTKTQVOTES*Roberto AlomarXXX--XXXXXXXX11 (92%)Andre DawsonX--XXXXXXXXXX11 (92%)Bert Blyleven--XXXXXX------XX8 (67%)*Barry LarkinXXX--XXX--X--X--8 (67%)Mark McGwireXXX--XXX------X--7 (58%)Tim RainesXXX--XXX------X--7 (58%)*Edgar Martinez----X--XXXX----X--6 (50%)Jack MorrisX------XXX------XX6 (50%)*Fred McGriff----X--XXX------X--5 (42%)Lee Smith--XX--------XXX----5 (42%)Alan Trammell----X----X----X--X--4 (33%)Dale Murphy------------X--------X2 (17%)Dave Parker----------------X------1 (8%)
THE VOTERS: BO = Buster Olney; BR = Brendan Roberts; GE = Gordon Edes; HB = Howard Bryant; JE = Jerry Crasnick; JI = Jim Caple; JS = Jayson Stark; MK = Michael Knisley; PG = Pedro Gomez; TJ = Tony Jackson; TK = Tim Kurkjian; TQ = T.J. Quinn

Chris78
01-05-2010, 11:09 PM
I think both Alomar and Larkin should be first ballot. Dawson I think will be very close and will make it. Blyleven will be close and might make it. This year we may have 3 or 4 people elected.

Chris

bronx_burner
01-05-2010, 11:52 PM
I don't think any of the top 4 first time candidates (Alomar, Larkin, McGriff, Edgar) will get in this year. It will be interesting to see what kind of support they do get though as the first year vote seems to have a real effect on future totals. I think Dawson gets in this year. I think Blyleven will be real close but may not get in till next year. So I think it will be just be the 1 or 2 long timers getting in.

My personal ballot would be Dawson, Blyleven, Trammell, Raines, Mattingly, McGriff and Larkin.

Manram
01-06-2010, 12:21 AM
I don't think any of the top 4 first time candidates (Alomar, Larkin, McGriff, Edgar) will get in this year. It will be interesting to see what kind of support they do get though as the first year vote seems to have a real effect on future totals. I think Dawson gets in this year. I think Blyleven will be real close but may not get in till next year. So I think it will be just be the 1 or 2 long timers getting in.

My personal ballot would be Dawson, Blyleven, Trammell, Raines, Mattingly, McGriff and Larkin.

I think that Alomar will make it this year.

bronx_burner
01-06-2010, 12:38 AM
I think that Alomar will make it this year.

He certainly will get the most support of the new guys. I just don't think it will be enough this year. If I had to guess I'd say he gets 63%. He might get in, bu thats just my guess.

dirtyla2000
01-06-2010, 04:03 AM
How does Alomar's spitting incident compare to Raines' headfirst slide so he wouldn't break the cocaine vial in the back pocket of his uniform?

Ken
earlywynnfan5@hotmail.com
HOW does it compare,not at all! Raines had a 2 year addiction that could have destroyed his own life! Alomar disgraced the entire game. After the Alomar aids rumour,you think the ump checked himself out! The guys a pig!

STLHAMMER32
01-06-2010, 09:34 AM
UHHHH What??? The best second baseman in the game period in the 90's and it is not even close. Other than the spitting incident, I am not sure how anyone can suggest he is not a HOF'er.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/hof10/columns/story?columnist=crasnick_jerry&id=4781279

The only argument anyone could have for this guy not only getting in, but being a first ballot guy, is the spitting incident. The umpire whom he spit at has even said he would vote for him if he had the chance. Alomar is a Hall of Famer NOT EVEN CLOSE

STLHAMMER32
01-06-2010, 09:39 AM
HOW does it compare,not at all! Raines had a 2 year addiction that could have destroyed his own life! Alomar disgraced the entire game. After the Alomar aids rumour,you think the ump checked himself out! The guys a pig!

The guy may be a pig but one moment should not destroy a career. He is a Hall of Famer without question. He used very poor judgement but if you want to keep him out then there needs to be several players removed for character issues.

JETEFAN
01-06-2010, 10:00 AM
Hmm, if this is true, why'd he only start one All Star Game? I think McGwire, Carew, Rose, Garvey, and even Al Oliver could, uh, carry his jock. If you look at the lineup of the game he DID start, he's probably the 10th best position player there!

And let's be totally honest, Pucketti isn't exactly a world-class HOFer.

Ken
earlywynnfan5@hotmail.com

If this is all you got, I think you just helped make my point, thanks !!

George

legaleagle92481
01-06-2010, 10:30 AM
Blyleven,Dawson, and I hope Raines gets closer,he was truly one of the greatest lead off hitters of all time! NO ALOMAR! I know that hofers have done worse but the spitting and personal life in disaster is just too much! I raised my kids and coached them playing ball and even though they sometimes taunted the opposition, I would have ripped them both a new one if they ever spat on someone,anyone.That goes against everything baseball stands for. I would have preferred a fist fight!

Alomar was the top second baseman in baseball for a dozen years with noone else even close, if he is not a hall of famer it is time to close the place. Personal life? What are you talking about? Whether or not he has AIDS is irrelevant and his business. It sounded more like a shakedown from a bitter exlover than anything else. Anyway Magic Johnson has HIV and he is in the basketball hall of fame and unlike Robbie, Magic was a married man when he got by committing adultery with who knows how many women and who knows how many women got it from him. Look at Puckett, Eck, Cepeda and Boggs all recent hall of famers with personal issues. Puckett had a whole Sports Illustrated cover story devoted to his treatment of women, Eck was an alcholoic, Cepeda had drug problems and Boggs had the Margo Adams scandal. As far as spitting, is that really worse than Juan Marichal attacking someone with a bat during a game or Gaylord Perry doctoring the baseball? They are both hall of famers. And Tim Raines your hall of fame choice was known for sliding head first so as not to harm the illegal drugs in his back pocket and spent much of his career as anything but a star. And Bert B. was probably not even a top ten pitcher from the 1970s-1980s era in which he played. Would you pick him over Seaver, Palmer, Ryan, Carlton, Perry, Jenkins, Niekro or Clemens? The guy pitched 22 years and received a Cy Young vote only four times never finishing higher than 3rd, made only two All Star teams and won only 37 games more than he lost and had one 20 win season.

bigtruck260
01-06-2010, 11:48 AM
How does Alomar's spitting incident compare to Raines' headfirst slide so he wouldn't break the cocaine vial in the back pocket of his uniform?

Ken
earlywynnfan5@hotmail.com

Agree in principle Ken.

At some point there will be a reality show that goes to graveyards across America and exhumes HOF baseball players to test their bones and what's left of their flesh for evidence of PEDs and illicit/illegal drugs. Only then will we truly find out how many HOF players from the 70's and 80's truly did blow during their playing days. We should have the technology by then.

I mean Paul Molitor was a clean marine for MOST of his career, but he still admitted to having a COKE problem early in his career.

People make mistakes in the heat of competition...and Robbie spitting on Hirschbeck was a mistake that he apologized for.

Raines admitted that he used COKE during his career. So did a few others...probably more than a few. I would guess that the majority of players in the HALL did something over the course of their career that the general public would frown upon, but that's life.

Do you think that the following line was ever muttered in MLB dugouts in the 80's?

"If it's good enough for Lonnie Smith, it's good enough for me. Pass that mirror...."

whatupyos
01-06-2010, 01:23 PM
UHHHH What??? The best second baseman in the game period in the 90's and it is not even close. Other than the spitting incident, I am not sure how anyone can suggest he is not a HOF'er.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/hof10/columns/story?columnist=crasnick_jerry&id=4781279


I misunderstood the title of the thread. It was who do YOU want in, I thought it was who would or should be in. Alomar a first timer, no way, that was my reaction. I remember he was good, but I don't remember him being the best. Thats fine if others think he was, but honestly, in my opinion, he doesn't seem hall worthy.

Aaron

STLHAMMER32
01-06-2010, 02:25 PM
I never said I wanted EVERY Hall of Famer to have those numbers. Like I said, you made very solid points. You can debate for days who should, and shouldn't be in the hall. And in my opinion Andre Dawson, shouldn't get in. And I really doubt he ever will !

The Hawk is in, glad the voters did not see things the way you felt.

tjm5711
01-06-2010, 02:39 PM
The Hawk is in, glad the voters did not see things the way you felt.

Wow, you didn't waste much time rubbing that in ! I'm not going to do you the favor and engage you any further. You're obviously just trying to create a harsh dialogue back and forth.

STLHAMMER32
01-06-2010, 02:43 PM
Wow, you didn't waste much time rubbing that in ! I'm not going to do you the favor and engage you any further. You're obviously just trying to create a harsh dialogue back and forth.

Don't take it the wrong way...I am truly glad the guys that put him in did not feel the way you did. You made it very clear that you felt he would never make it and I am glad he did because the guy is a class act and did things not many can say they did regardless of how good they were. I am not looking for harsh dialogue but lets just say I want be asking you for any stock advice any time soon :p

tjm5711
01-06-2010, 02:49 PM
Don't take it the wrong way...I am truly glad the guys that put him in did not feel the way you did. You made it very clear that you felt he would never make it and I am glad he did because the guy is a class act and did things not many can say they did regardless of how good they were. I am not looking for harsh dialogue but lets just say I want be asking you for any stock advice any time soon :p

I wouldn't be asking anybody for stock advice in the roller coaster market of the last couple years. I don't have any huge problem with him getting in. I am surprised Barry Larkin or Robbie Alomar didn't get closer. Both of them definitely belong in my opinion.

STLHAMMER32
01-06-2010, 02:56 PM
I wouldn't be asking anybody for stock advice in the roller coaster market of the last couple years. I don't have any huge problem with him getting in. I am surprised Barry Larkin or Robbie Alomar didn't get closer. Both of them definitely belong in my opinion.

You aren't lying, tough to take advice with this market but Ron Paul's advice about Gold a decade ago looks good now...

Robbie will be a Hall of Famer but I think the voters would not let him get in on the first ballot. He is deserving but the spitting incident probably cost him a first year.

tjm5711
01-06-2010, 03:03 PM
You aren't lying, tough to take advice with this market but Ron Paul's advice about Gold a decade ago looks good now...

Robbie will be a Hall of Famer but I think the voters would not let him get in on the first ballot. He is deserving but the spitting incident probably cost him a first year.

Would about Larkin ? Me and others have stated a handful of times earlier in this thread the case for him. I think he's just as deserving.

STLHAMMER32
01-06-2010, 03:40 PM
Would about Larkin ? Me and others have stated a handful of times earlier in this thread the case for him. I think he's just as deserving.

I wouldn't say he is as deserving as alomar but Larkin was a very good ballplayer. With Larkin there is not really any reason to say he is not hall of fame worthy....

The problem I see is that his numbers look less favorable compared to current Shortstops. The position has changed since Larkin was playing it as his best.....will people remember that now in voting? I guess we'll find out.

mbrieve
01-06-2010, 03:52 PM
I wouldn't say he is as deserving as alomar but Larkin was a very good ballplayer. With Larkin there is not really any reason to say he is not hall of fame worthy....

The problem I see is that his numbers look less favorable compared to current Shortstops. The position has changed since Larkin was playing it as his best.....will people remember that now in voting? I guess we'll find out.
Congrats to the Hawk, it is well deserved!

I think Bert and Alomar will both get in eventually...Alomar is being punished for some of his indiscretions.

I think Larkin was hurt by all the articles that, rightfully, compared him to Alan Trammell. I believe they are both HOFers, but when Trammell is getting less than 50% year in and year out, it is hard to vote for his peer.

Chris78
01-06-2010, 04:02 PM
Next year's class is pretty weak if I remember correctly. Both Blyleven and Alomar will be shoo-in's for next year if they are this close. Larkin will be someone that waits for a few more years, but will make it. Jack Morris and Lee Smith might be the next Jim Rice scenarios.

Chris

earlywynnfan
01-06-2010, 04:10 PM
Next year's class is pretty weak if I remember correctly. Both Blyleven and Alomar will be shoo-in's for next year if they are this close. Larkin will be someone that waits for a few more years, but will make it. Jack Morris and Lee Smith might be the next Jim Rice scenarios.

Chris


I just posted on the other HOF thread: "Next year's ballot also will include newcomers Rafael Palmeiro, Juan Gonzalez, Larry Walker, Jeff Bagwell, John Franco and Kevin Brown."

I agree, pretty weak.

Ken
earlywynnfan5@hotmail.com