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NYCrulesU
01-09-2010, 01:33 PM
I am looking into buying an item that is MLB authenticated. Problem is, it's not showing up when I look up the number.

Also, the prefix is MA. I don't even see an option for MA. Could anyone offer opinions on this?

The item is a game used, signed and inscribed, hr baseball. Thanks.

tjm5711
01-09-2010, 01:41 PM
I wouldn't worry too much about that. MLB and NFL Auctions both screw up their holo verification databases from time to time. I have a Sammy Sosa autographed jersey that doesn't register in the database either, and it has a Mounted Memories Hologram on it as well. I have bought items on Ebay from NFL Auctions that when I go to look them up have an entirely different item listed/pictured. As long as there's a legit MLB Hologram on it, I wouldn't sweat it.`

NYCrulesU
01-09-2010, 02:00 PM
Any thoughts on it's being prefixed "MA" and no MA being listed on their site as a prefix?

tjm5711
01-09-2010, 02:07 PM
Any thoughts on it's being prefixed "MA" and no MA being listed on their site as a prefix?


I wouldn't worry too much. Are you buying this off of Ebay ? As long as it's a legitimate MLB hologram, You should be good. These guys(Especially NFL Auctions) don't put a whole lot of care into their data entry at times. My Sosa Jersey has the same issue. I couldn't find the prefix either.

STLHAMMER32
01-09-2010, 02:13 PM
I am looking into buying an item that is MLB authenticated. Problem is, it's not showing up when I look up the number.

Also, the prefix is MA. I don't even see an option for MA. Could anyone offer opinions on this?

The item is a game used, signed and inscribed, hr baseball. Thanks.


I can only tell you that I have not ever seen an MA prefix on any items that I have ever owned or seen. I am sure that things are not registered correctly on occasion but the pre-fix is a bit strange to me. Hopefully someone else has at least seen one before and can verify it's a legit prefix.

tjm5711
01-09-2010, 02:18 PM
Put a picture of the hologram in the thread. They might have peeled one off of a hat or something. Or at least describe what it looks like.

yanks12025
01-09-2010, 02:22 PM
I have seen the mlb hologram prefix MA before but it was not good. My item was for a game used bat and i found out they stopped using the MA hologram before this bat was used, so they determinded someone put the hologram on the bat from another item or the role of holograsm got stolen. I dont remember 100% what they said, but if i was you i would call them and ask.

tjm5711
01-09-2010, 02:25 PM
I have seen the mlb hologram prefix MA before but it was not good. My item was for a game used bat and i found out they stopped using the MA hologram before this bat was used, so they determinded someone put the hologram on the bat from another item or the role of holograsm got stolen. I dont remember 100% what they said, but if i was you i would call them and ask.



Really ? A stolen roll of Holograms? That is really disturbing. Who told you that ?

yanks12025
01-09-2010, 02:31 PM
The person i sold the item contacted mlb and thats what they said it could be from, because we were both trying to figure out the MA prefix. But don't quote me 100%.



Really ? A stolen roll of Holograms? That is really disturbing. Who told you that ?

tjm5711
01-09-2010, 02:41 PM
The person i sold the item contacted mlb and thats what they said it could be from, because we were both trying to figure out the MA prefix. But don't quote me 100%.

Yeah, I just find it hard to believe a roll of holograms is floating around out there from MLB. I hope it's not true. If it is that is very very disturbing to Autograph Collectors like me.

NYCrulesU
01-09-2010, 02:44 PM
Once I receive an clear photo, I will post it.

David
01-09-2010, 02:45 PM
I have no insight into the MA, but for companies like MLB and UDA it sometimes takes a while to enter/process the data. So that a hologram number doesn't show up in a database search shouldn't automatically be considered a scary problem. Omission is often simply a short term data processing issue and not an issue of authenticity.

yanks12025
01-09-2010, 02:47 PM
I went and looked through my old emails and the MA hologram was stopped in 2005(according to MLB Authenticator). I believe it's the round ones, and the reason they stopped it was because it sucked at being Tamper Proof.

tjm5711
01-09-2010, 02:49 PM
I have no insight into the MA, but for companies like MLB and UDA it sometimes takes a while to enter/process the data. So that a hologram number doesn't show up in a database search shouldn't automatically be considered a scary problem. Omission is often simply a short term data processing issue and not an issue of authenticity.



That's what i was thinking, and hoping rather than it being a stolen roll of Holograms.

David
01-09-2010, 02:59 PM
Also, if a hologram was removed from one item and placed on another, there's a probably chance that the number would still show up in a MLB database search (though w/ description for the first item). The average taker has no ability to erase the number and description from the MLB computers.

Of course hologram switching is always a possibility in this hobby, but I don't see the omission of the number and description from the database as likely evidence of this.

yanks12025
01-09-2010, 03:04 PM
You guys do understand that the prefix MA is not on mlb website, there's no way to look it up like you can with a BB or LH hologram.

NYCrulesU
01-09-2010, 03:05 PM
I went and looked through my old emails and the MA hologram was stopped in 2005(according to MLB Authenticator). I believe it's the round ones, and the reason they stopped it was because it sucked at being Tamper Proof.



Thanks for that bit of info. The item is said to be from 2003. So what you've said would make perfect sense. Here's the pic I do have. While it is quite blurry, does it look tampered with in any way? It also has the ESM/ASI hologram.



http://i843.photobucket.com/albums/zz353/RafaelPalmeiro25/Stuff/ball-1.jpg

http://i843.photobucket.com/albums/zz353/RafaelPalmeiro25/Stuff/ball2-1.jpg

tjm5711
01-09-2010, 03:05 PM
Also, if a hologram was removed from one item and placed on another, there's a probably chance that the number would still show up in a MLB database search (though w/ description for the first item). The average taker has no ability to erase the number and description from the MLB computers.

Of course hologram switching is always a possibility in this hobby, but I don't see the omission of the number and description from the database as likely evidence of this.



I thought these holograms were designed to show whether they had been tampered with .

David
01-09-2010, 03:08 PM
One last database note. PSA card holders are sometimes tampered with and the serial numbered labels altered and switched. In these cases, the serial number commonly shows up in the PSA database but the database lists it as for a clearly different card (1987 Topps Greg Maddox Vs 1952 Topps Mickey Mantle). This is similar to one looking up a 2002 Orioles jersey hologram number on the MLB database andd it's listed as being for a 2006 Brewers second base.

And the reason the card collector looked up the PSA number in the first place, is usually because the card/holder looks awfully suspicious if not outright dubious.

tjm5711
01-09-2010, 03:10 PM
One last database note. PSA card holders are sometimes tampered with and the serial numbered labels altered and switched. In these cases, the serial number commonly shows up in the PSA database but the database lists it as for a clearly different card (1987 Topps Greg Maddox Vs 1952 Topps Mickey Mantle). This is similar to one looking up a 2002 Orioles jersey hologram number on the MLB database andd it's listed as being for a 2006 Brewers second base.

And the reason the card collector looked up the PSA number in the first place, is usually because the card/holder looks awfully suspicious if not outright dubious.



I think it would be fairly noticeable if people were changing PSA Slabs out.

David
01-09-2010, 03:18 PM
I don't know about all the holograms and stickers, but many are intricately die cut to be destroyed/unusable if someone tries to remove them. I tested a PSA/DNA sticker once and will testify the sticker could not have been reused. The act of removing the sticker ruined it, making it look not unlike a window pane shattered into many small pieces on the floor.

indyred
01-09-2010, 04:16 PM
Wouldn't touch the ball in million years. The key thing on home run ball is the Mlb hologram and it showing up as home run baseball in data base. You would have to be a complete idiot to touch that ball with a bad hologram. Don't waste your money.

tjm5711
01-09-2010, 04:23 PM
Wouldn't touch the ball in million years. The key thing on home run ball is the Mlb hologram and it showing up as home run baseball in data base. You would have to be a complete idiot to touch that ball with a bad hologram. Don't waste your money.



It might just be a Data Entry error like someone alluded to earlier in the thread. I wouldn't call someone a "complete idiot" for buying a ball like that.

NYCrulesU
01-09-2010, 05:04 PM
It might just be a Data Entry error like someone alluded to earlier in the thread. I wouldn't call someone a "complete idiot" for buying a ball like that.


No, I wouldn't say that it's a data entry error. Like Yanks12025 said, the MA prefix no longer exists. At all. There is no way for me to verify this ball through MLB.com. The only option I would have is to eye the hologram to see if I felt comfortable with it, then decide if I felt comfortable with the inscription and with the sellers say so that it is indeed a hr baseball from a MLB game hit by Rafael Palmeiro.

Too many if's for me.

legaleagle92481
01-10-2010, 02:27 AM
Avoid it. Since you cannot look it up in the database you have no idea what the MLB hologram even if it is an authentic hologram is authenticating. It could be to authenticate only the signature. Sellers sometimes try to fool people especially on Ebay by trying to pass a game used item that is certified as to the autograph as being certfied as to the game use as well. And as for ASI/ESM ESM is out of business for sure and ASI either is or is fledging as I have not heard of them having a signing or anything in a long time. They started out as one company and one of the key people left to form ESM. I have heard negative things about both companies and when ASI was on Ebay they had alot of negative feedback.

NYCrulesU
01-10-2010, 02:43 AM
Thanks LegalEagle.

tjm5711
01-10-2010, 11:23 AM
Avoid it. Since you cannot look it up in the database you have no idea what the MLB hologram even if it is an authentic hologram is authenticating. It could be to authenticate only the signature. Sellers sometimes try to fool people especially on Ebay by trying to pass a game used item that is certified as to the autograph as being certfied as to the game use as well. And as for ASI/ESM ESM is out of business for sure and ASI either is or is fledging as I have not heard of them having a signing or anything in a long time. They started out as one company and one of the key people left to form ESM. I have heard negative things about both companies and when ASI was on Ebay they had alot of negative feedback.


Once again, a good point about a MLB authenticated autographed item being passed off as game used. As far as this unknown prefix, it's really a guessing game as to the reason. And it's all speculation until someone gets an explanation from MLB.

STLHAMMER32
01-10-2010, 04:51 PM
My suggestion would be to see what kind of price you could get for the ball.....explain to the seller the concerns about the item nicely and see what he can do on the price. If the ball turns out to be everything it is described to be, you will have yourself a great item and a bargain price. If the item does not turn out exactly as described you didnt break the bank on the item but still have a very nice ball signed and inscribed by your favorite player.

Jus my .02 but I would at least try to see if you could get it at a price that is comfortable for you given the circumstances surrounding the ball. Then if it doesnt work out you know you gave it every effort.... Hope everything works out whatever way you feel best.

tjm5711
01-10-2010, 04:59 PM
My suggestion would be to see what kind of price you could get for the ball.....explain to the seller the concerns about the item nicely and see what he can do on the price. If the ball turns out to be everything it is described to be, you will have yourself a great item and a bargain price. If the item does not turn out exactly as described you didnt break the bank on the item but still have a very nice ball signed and inscribed by your favorite player.

Jus my .02 but I would at least try to see if you could get it at a price that is comfortable for you given the circumstances surrounding the ball. Then if it doesnt work out you know you gave it every effort.... Hope everything works out whatever way you feel best.


That's a good way to look at it. Everyone knows it's a gamble sometimes in this Hobby. And sometimes you can win BIG ! It's just a matter of how much you want to bet !

NYCrulesU
01-10-2010, 05:20 PM
My suggestion would be to see what kind of price you could get for the ball.....explain to the seller the concerns about the item nicely and see what he can do on the price. If the ball turns out to be everything it is described to be, you will have yourself a great item and a bargain price. If the item does not turn out exactly as described you didnt break the bank on the item but still have a very nice ball signed and inscribed by your favorite player.

Jus my .02 but I would at least try to see if you could get it at a price that is comfortable for you given the circumstances surrounding the ball. Then if it doesnt work out you know you gave it every effort.... Hope everything works out whatever way you feel best.


Without being able to authenticate the ball as 100% authentic it isn't something I would want to purchase for my collection, even at $5. I prefer to know, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that all items I buy are legit.

But thank you for your advice.

suicide_squeeze
01-10-2010, 05:31 PM
That's a good way to look at it. Everyone knows it's a gamble sometimes in this Hobby. And sometimes you can win BIG ! It's just a matter of how much you want to bet !


Dude,

With all due respect.......what the hell are you talking about?

It's not a "gamble" sometimes in this hobby unless you haven't got the cerebral ability to do your homework and alieviate any and all concerns you may have before shelling out your hard earned money for something.

This hobby is riddled with fraud, scam artists, forgeries......it's out of control.

We are here to help eachother. Sometimes you can win big by buying an item that turns out to be more than what you expected.....Like Kyle hess buying a game used Atlanta Braves home jersey that, after closer inspection, turns out to be a photo-matched unquestionable "cycle" jersey. Yeah, that's hitting a home run, so to speak, in the collecting world.

But to blindly buy an item, a home run ball in this case, because of the seller's claims that it is something special, with holograms that should prove it beyond any reasonable doubt, only to find out it's not real......well my friend that's not a gamble.

That's stupidity.

And the support team (forum members) are here to give advice to those asking for it so those types of mistakes can be avoided.

tjm5711
01-10-2010, 05:44 PM
Dude,

With all due respect.......what the hell are you talking about?

It's not a "gamble" sometimes in this hobby unless you haven't got the cerebral ability to do your homework and alieviate any and all concerns you may have before shelling out your hard earned money for something.

This hobby is riddled with fraud, scam artists, forgeries......it's out of control.

We are here to help eachother. Sometimes you can win big by buying an item that turns out to be more than what you expected.....Like Kyle hess buying a game used Atlanta Braves home jersey that, after closer inspection, turns out to be a photo-matched unquestionable "cycle" jersey. Yeah, that's hitting a home run, so to speak, in the collecting world.

But to blindly buy an item, a home run ball in this case, because of the seller's claims that it is something special, with holograms that should prove it beyond any reasonable doubt, only to find out it's not real......well my friend that's not a gamble.

That's stupidity.

And the support team (forum members) are here to give advice to those asking for it so those types of mistakes can be avoided.



What the hell are you talking about ? Unless the player hands you the item off his back you are always taking a risk that an item is real. How can you otherwise say there's no risk. Sure there is a smaller risk buying from more credible sources than others. But, where do you get off blasting me for stating that? You are the one mired in stupidity my friend !

STLHAMMER32
01-10-2010, 05:45 PM
Without being able to authenticate the ball as 100% authentic it isn't something I would want to purchase for my collection, even at $5. I prefer to know, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that all items I buy are legit.

But thank you for your advice.


Concerning this particular item if you know the signature is authentic and on a Major League baseball the ball has some value so its not an all or nothing type situation. It's not a question of if the item is authentic but whether or not it indeed has the "extra" value of being a HR baseball. If there is no proof the buyer does not know for sure and may be willing to accept a very reasonable amount for the ball....

STLHAMMER32
01-10-2010, 05:59 PM
Dude,

With all due respect.......what the hell are you talking about?

It's not a "gamble" sometimes in this hobby unless you haven't got the cerebral ability to do your homework and alieviate any and all concerns you may have before shelling out your hard earned money for something.

This hobby is riddled with fraud, scam artists, forgeries......it's out of control.

We are here to help eachother. Sometimes you can win big by buying an item that turns out to be more than what you expected.....Like Kyle hess buying a game used Atlanta Braves home jersey that, after closer inspection, turns out to be a photo-matched unquestionable "cycle" jersey. Yeah, that's hitting a home run, so to speak, in the collecting world.

But to blindly buy an item, a home run ball in this case, because of the seller's claims that it is something special, with holograms that should prove it beyond any reasonable doubt, only to find out it's not real......well my friend that's not a gamble.

That's stupidity.

And the support team (forum members) are here to give advice to those asking for it so those types of mistakes can be avoided.

When you gamble you do not know what the eventual outcome will be. Some people would say betting against the pats is not a gamble but stupididity.....it all depends on the person.

It's not that this is just a ball with nothing on it with no proof at all...I would lean on that being more of a dumb purchase just relying on someone's word that just a plain baseball was a "hr". This ball has two holograms and is inscribed by the player. I would say the chances these stickers were stolen and placed on a ball is much less than the chance it was outdated for a prefix and not available to be looked up.

Unless you see the player use an item and walk directly to you and hand an item there is always a small chance it is not legit. Even when players think it is a certain item it can turn out not to be. There are items in every one's collection that we must rely on our own judgements to consider them authentic. Almost everything in life is a gamble to some extent...

NYCrulesU
01-10-2010, 05:59 PM
Concerning this particular item if you know the signature is authentic and on a Major League baseball the ball has some value so its not an all or nothing type situation. It's not a question of if the item is authentic but whether or not it indeed has the "extra" value of being a HR baseball. If there is no proof the buyer does not know for sure and may be willing to accept a very reasonable amount for the ball....

It's all about "preference". I prefer that my Palmeiro signed ball be just that, his signature on a OMLB. Those can be picked up for $50-$70 all day. I prefer not to purchase a ball that is signed/inscribed as being a specific hr ball that I have ZERO chance of proving it to be real or not. I'm very particular. I will pass on 100 items just to get to the one that I'm satisfied with.

I would be embarrassed to have any item in my collection that I was't 100% confident in. Can every item be proven? No. But I would never buy something knowing from the start that there were questions surrounding it's authenticity.

STLHAMMER32
01-10-2010, 06:02 PM
It's all about "preference". I prefer that my Palmeiro signed ball be just that, his signature on a OMLB. Those can be picked up for $50-$70 all day. I prefer not to purchase a ball that is signed/inscribed as being a specific hr ball that I have ZERO chance of proving it to be real or not. I'm very particular. I will pass on 100 items just to get to the one that I'm satisfied with.

I would be embarrassed to have any item in my collection that I was't 100% confident in. Can every item be proven? No. But I would never buy something knowing from the start that there were questions surrounding it's authenticity.

My point is that even if this ball was looked up and documented to be the "HR ball" you are relying on other people to have correctly collected the ball and not made any mistakes while documenting this. The only way you could for sure no is to catch the baseball yourself.

NYCrulesU
01-10-2010, 06:03 PM
When you gamble you do not know what the eventual outcome will be. Some people would say betting against the pats is not a gamble but stupididity.....it all depends on the person.

It's not that this is just a ball with nothing on it with no proof at all...I would lean on that being more of a dumb purchase just relying on someone's word that just a plain baseball was a "hr". This ball has two holograms and is inscribed by the player. I would say the chances these stickers were stolen and placed on a ball is much less than the chance it was outdated for a prefix and not available to be looked up.

Unless you see the player use an item and walk directly to you and hand an item there is always a small chance it is not legit. Even when players think it is a certain item it can turn out not to be. There are items in every one's collection that we must rely on our own judgements to consider them authentic. Almost everything in life is a gamble to some extent...




I first saw the item and was intrigued. I asked questions, received answers and decided I was not confident in the items authenticity. I've moved on. I'm not sure why this thread or my decision are being picked apart by anyone.

tjm5711
01-10-2010, 06:11 PM
When you gamble you do not know what the eventual outcome will be. Some people would say betting against the pats is not a gamble but stupididity.....it all depends on the person.

It's not that this is just a ball with nothing on it with no proof at all...I would lean on that being more of a dumb purchase just relying on someone's word that just a plain baseball was a "hr". This ball has two holograms and is inscribed by the player. I would say the chances these stickers were stolen and placed on a ball is much less than the chance it was outdated for a prefix and not available to be looked up.

Unless you see the player use an item and walk directly to you and hand an item there is always a small chance it is not legit. Even when players think it is a certain item it can turn out not to be. There are items in every one's collection that we must rely on our own judgements to consider them authentic. Almost everything in life is a gamble to some extent...



AMEN ! That's exactly what I was trying to say ! There is a great deal of trust built on reputation in this hobby. And there is always room for error,deception,and negligence by a seller. Unless you stood on the sideline and had players had you everything in your collection, you took a risk somewhere.

STLHAMMER32
01-10-2010, 06:14 PM
I first saw the item and was intrigued. I asked questions, received answers and decided I was not confident in the items authenticity. I've moved on. I'm not sure why this thread or my decision are being picked apart by anyone.


It's being discussed because you made a public thread to discuss the item....I gave you my opinon which I planned to leave at that....especially if this was your first reply...but when you replied to say you wouldn't pay $5 for it, I questioned what the debate over authenticity was because I thought it in fact was a legitimate auto.....my point was why not offer him the price of a regular baseball and see what you can find out. Maybe it would turn out to be a real bargain or maybe it would just be what it is an authentic autograph baseball with the chance of being more...if he rejects the low offer so be it.....

sounds like you made up your mind already so no need to go any farther but you did not say initially "I won't buy it"....you sought out others opinions.

NYCrulesU
01-10-2010, 06:24 PM
Thanks for all the replies. I've received my answer.

suicide_squeeze
01-10-2010, 06:53 PM
What the hell are you talking about ? Unless the player hands you the item off his back you are always taking a risk that an item is real. How can you otherwise say there's no risk. Sure there is a smaller risk buying from more credible sources than others. But, where do you get off blasting me for stating that? You are the one mired in stupidity my friend !

tmj5711,

You appear to be of the thought that my "That's stupidity" comment was placed in reference to you? Not at all.

It was in reference to anyone who has the tools to do their proper homework, as NYCrulesU has and has done so in a responsible manner to himself as a collector, but fails to utilize the opportunity.

But I will say that just because you make the reference that "unless the player hands you the items off his back" that you can't be sure without some kind of a gamble that it's real.....I mean, do we really need to go down this road?

Ever heard of "photo matching"?

Understand the concept of MLB authentication, and what is involved? If the item ever leaves the sight of the authenticator, it doesn't receive a sticker. You want to site one time in maybe 30,000 that a mistake was made? Please.

If a guy like NYCrulesU is doing his due diligence in figuring out the authenticity of this ball or lack of it, and the level of comfort he has with it based on what has come to be.....then he certainly doesn't need to hear a rediculous comment about how everything's a risk.

You're new on this site, and you have entered with your guns a blazing. Take a little bit of friendly advice from someone who knows.....It might be a prudent thing for you to take a step back and be a little less proactive in your posts and just absorb some of what the forum has to offer for awhile. Post when you have something constructive to add. Think twice on all other occasions. It'll save you some grief.....trust me.



NYCrulesU.....I think you're correct in letting it slide. If you have a chance to buy a ball claiming to be a home run ball, with a MLB authentication sticker that is not listed in their database......I mean, what exactly do you have there? An unverifyable piece of heresay?

Nothing.....in my opinion, except someone elses garbage they are trying to get rid of. But that's just me.

tjm5711
01-10-2010, 07:05 PM
tmj5711,

You appear to be of the thought that my "That's stupidity" comment was placed in reference to you? Not at all.

It was in reference to anyone who has the tools to do their proper homework, as NYCrulesU has and has done so in a responsible manner to himself as a collector, but fails to utilize the opportunity.

But I will say that just because you make the reference that "unless the player hands you the items off his back" that you can't be sure without some kind of a gamble that it's real.....I mean, do we really need to go down this road?

Ever heard of "photo matching"?

Understand the concept of MLB authentication, and what is involved? If the item ever leaves the sight of the authenticator, it doesn't receive a sticker. You want to site one time in maybe 30,000 that a mistake was made? Please.

If a guy like NYCrulesU is doing his due diligence in figuring out the authenticity of this ball or lack of it, and the level of comfort he has with it based on what has come to be.....then he certainly doesn't need to hear a rediculous comment about how everything's a risk.

You're new on this site, and you have entered with your guns a blazing. Take a little bit of friendly advice from someone who knows.....It might be a prudent thing for you to take a step back and be a little less proactive in your posts and just absorb some of what the forum has to offer for awhile. Post when you have something constructive to add. Think twice on all other occasions. It'll save you some grief.....trust me.



NYCrulesU.....I think you're correct in letting it slide. If you have a chance to buy a ball claiming to be a home run ball, with a MLB authentication sticker that is not listed in their database......I mean, what exactly do you have there? An unverifyable piece of heresay?

Nothing.....in my opinion, except someone elses garbage they are trying to get rid of. But that's just me.



Why don't you save yourself some grief and quit proclaiming yourself an "Expert." Just because I'm new to this site doesn't mean I'm going to take that garbage from you ! This thread was going along just fine until you took your,"What the Hell are you talking about" swipe at me. You followed me to this thread after I showed how irrational you were in the Grace All-Star Jersey thread. And when other members agreed with me, I guess that was too much for you and your ego to handle. So do us all a favor and save your advice on how one should conduct themselves. You need to check yourself before you start advising others !!!!!!!!!

tjm5711
01-10-2010, 07:18 PM
Re: Photo matching comment by "SuicideSqueeze."


Of course I know what Photo matching is. (And we are referring to internet purchases? Right?) But you really can't do true Photo matching until you have the item in your hands. And in some(and not just a few) cases you can't do ANY matching until this occurs.(This mainly dependent on the quality of the photos).

So, unless the seller is nice enough to send you the item free of charge and wait until you photo match it,(And I have never heard of that in my life) you take some risk in making the purchase. If you do find a dealer that does this let me know. I'd love to have him send me some jerseys, photo match them, and then decide if i want to pay for them !

So the bottom line is photo matching doesn't eliminate the risk of an items authenticity in many occasions. And I know this from my own experiences. Just because I'm new to this thread,doesn't mean I don't know these things !

STLHAMMER32
01-10-2010, 07:24 PM
tmj5711,

You appear to be of the thought that my "That's stupidity" comment was placed in reference to you? Not at all.

It was in reference to anyone who has the tools to do their proper homework, as NYCrulesU has and has done so in a responsible manner to himself as a collector, but fails to utilize the opportunity.

But I will say that just because you make the reference that "unless the player hands you the items off his back" that you can't be sure without some kind of a gamble that it's real.....I mean, do we really need to go down this road?

Ever heard of "photo matching"?

Understand the concept of MLB authentication, and what is involved? If the item ever leaves the sight of the authenticator, it doesn't receive a sticker. You want to site one time in maybe 30,000 that a mistake was made? Please.

If a guy like NYCrulesU is doing his due diligence in figuring out the authenticity of this ball or lack of it, and the level of comfort he has with it based on what has come to be.....then he certainly doesn't need to hear a rediculous comment about how everything's a risk.

You're new on this site, and you have entered with your guns a blazing. Take a little bit of friendly advice from someone who knows.....It might be a prudent thing for you to take a step back and be a little less proactive in your posts and just absorb some of what the forum has to offer for awhile. Post when you have something constructive to add. Think twice on all other occasions. It'll save you some grief.....trust me.



NYCrulesU.....I think you're correct in letting it slide. If you have a chance to buy a ball claiming to be a home run ball, with a MLB authentication sticker that is not listed in their database......I mean, what exactly do you have there? An unverifyable piece of heresay?

Nothing.....in my opinion, except someone elses garbage they are trying to get rid of. But that's just me.


I agree with a lot of what you are saying here, I know you directed this at tmj but I wanted to ask you about the photomatching reference....if someone is willing and able wouldn't it be possible to also doctor an item to match a particular photo? It would be a tough task but I am sure it can be done, especially depending on the item. Also with Arod and Canseco both I have seen several items that I have been inscribed to be certain items and turn out not legit...hopefully by accident but still makes you a little uneasy about any items even when they come right from a player.

With NYCrulesU passing on the item I don't think anyone could say it is a bad move...but if he could get it for a low price I think that would be worth the "gamble" due to the fact it is an authentic signature at the very least.... especially if by contacting MLB authenticated the sticker could be verified....because it looks like any prefix of MA cannot be searched on the website.

tjm5711
01-10-2010, 07:35 PM
I agree with a lot of what you are saying here, I know you directed this at tmj but I wanted to ask you about the photomatching reference....if someone is willing and able wouldn't it be possible to also doctor an item to match a particular photo? It would be a tough task but I am sure it can be done, especially depending on the item. Also with Arod and Canseco both I have seen several items that I have been inscribed to be certain items and turn out not legit...hopefully by accident but still makes you a little uneasy about any items even when they come right from a player.

With NYCrulesU passing on the item I don't think anyone could say it is a bad move...but if he could get it for a low price I think that would be worth the "gamble" due to the fact it is an authentic signature at the very least.... especially if by contacting MLB authenticated the sticker could be verified....because it looks like any prefix of MA cannot be searched on the website.



That's what I was trying to say about not being able to TRULY photo match an item until you have it. But as far as that ball being authentic after taking a risk and buying it. Well according to Suicide Squeeze that's impossible ! According to him, if you have an authentic item, you obtained it without taking any risk. Or is it you only take a risk one in 30,000 times? I can't remember ! LOL

STLHAMMER32
01-10-2010, 07:45 PM
That's what I was trying to say about not being able to TRULY photo match an item until you have it. But as far as that ball being authentic after taking a risk and buying it. Well according to Suicide Squeeze that's impossible ! According to him, if you have an authentic item, you obtained it without taking any risk. Or is it you only take a risk one in 30,000 times? I can't remember ! LOL

In almost any case you could make an example where you would not know with 100% certainty. There will be times when a player hands you an item or you catch a ball and you know its authentic...it might be very difficult in the future to convince other people you know it's authentic because people just flat out lie and make up stories but you would know.

The reason I suggested that he maybe make him a low offer was only due to the fact that it was at the very least an authentic sig. So if it turned out not to be authenticated HR ball it wouldnt be an all or nothing situation. So in my opinion is was less of a gamble if he was getting close to an autographed ball price with the possibility for more...unlike a ball with nothing and no way to prove anything...this one gave a chance to authenticate it at least with some research and help from MLB authenticated.

tjm5711
01-10-2010, 07:57 PM
In almost any case you could make an example where you would not know with 100% certainty. There will be times when a player hands you an item or you catch a ball and you know its authentic...it might be very difficult in the future to convince other people you know it's authentic because people just flat out lie and make up stories but you would know.

The reason I suggested that he maybe make him a low offer was only due to the fact that it was at the very least an authentic sig. So if it turned out not to be authenticated HR ball it wouldnt be an all or nothing situation. So in my opinion is was less of a gamble if he was getting close to an autographed ball price with the possibility for more...unlike a ball with nothing and no way to prove anything...this one gave a chance to authenticate it at least with some research and help from MLB authenticated.


That's what I was saying in the beginning of this thread. I mentioned how having a MLB hologram on the ball made this a very safe play. Then people started talking about rolls of holograms being stolen, and holograms being switched and all that. To say it's stupidity to go after an item like this is ridiculous. The bottom line is this:

Even if you Photo Match an item on the internet before you have it, there's a risk of it not being authentic. There is always a risk in buying any game Used item unless you are standing on the sideline and the player hands it to you after the game. The level of this risk varies in degree from who you purchase the item from and their reputation in the hobby.

STLHAMMER32
01-10-2010, 08:08 PM
That's what I was saying in the beginning of this thread. I mentioned how having a MLB hologram on the ball made this a very safe play. Then people started talking about rolls of holograms being stolen, and holograms being switched and all that. To say it's stupidity to go after an item like this is ridiculous. The bottom line is this:

Even if you Photo Match an item on the internet before you have it, there's a risk of it not being authentic. There is always a risk in buying any game Used item unless you are standing on the sideline and the player hands it to you after the game. The level of this risk varies in degree from who you purchase the item from and their reputation in the hobby.

The only question I would really be concerned about is what the sticker was pertaining too....is it to verify a hr or to authenticate the signature. The chance that it was from a stolen roll would be less likely than just not being updated in the system....the whole key would be to get the ball at a decent price which was my point to at least try to get the ball for around the price of an authentic autographed MLB ball. The worst that happens then is that it is an autographed ball.

tjm5711
01-10-2010, 08:47 PM
The only question I would really be concerned about is what the sticker was pertaining too....is it to verify a hr or to authenticate the signature. The chance that it was from a stolen roll would be less likely than just not being updated in the system....the whole key would be to get the ball at a decent price which was my point to at least try to get the ball for around the price of an authentic autographed MLB ball. The worst that happens then is that it is an autographed ball.

I completely agree with you. And I always put my faith in a MLB Hologram. All this talk of stolen rolls, and switched holograms was merely speculation.

suicide_squeeze
01-11-2010, 01:44 AM
Why don't you save yourself some grief and quit proclaiming yourself an "Expert." Just because I'm new to this site doesn't mean I'm going to take that garbage from you ! This thread was going along just fine until you took your,"What the Hell are you talking about" swipe at me. You followed me to this thread after I showed how irrational you were in the Grace All-Star Jersey thread. And when other members agreed with me, I guess that was too much for you and your ego to handle. So do us all a favor and save your advice on how one should conduct themselves. You need to check yourself before you start advising others !!!!!!!!!

tjm5711,

I recently made a promise to the CEO of this site that I wouldn't partake in this kind of unproductive worthless arguing. I fully intend to keep my promise. Additionally, I find no desire in trying to reason with the unreasonable at the expense of the forum.

That said, however, I am interested in talking to you about a few things, and would ask that you enable your private messages so that we can communicate off the board. Or, you could email me directly at suicide_squeeze@roadrunner.com if desired.

Thank you,

Steve

tjm5711
01-11-2010, 01:49 AM
I have absolutely no interest in talking to you off of this site. As far as your promise to the CEO; No problem. Consider out debates over !

suicide_squeeze
01-11-2010, 01:56 AM
I have absolutely no interest in talking to you off of this site. As far as your promise to the CEO; No problem. Consider out debates over !

OK, I tried.

I wasn't going to post this here, but I will to prove a point.

The ball in question? I am familiar with it.

It is of my opinion that the wrong MLB authentication number was given to NYCrulesU for a reason. That reason was so that he WOULDN'T be able to look it up on the MLB data base.

Because, if he did, he would see it is not listed in any way, shape, or form as a home run baseball. It's simply a game used baseball from that game.

The correct MLB database number is MR 250617.

NYCrulesU
01-11-2010, 02:06 AM
OK, I tried.

I wasn't going to post this here, but I will to prove a point.

The ball in question? I am familiar with it.

It is of my opinion that the wrong MLB authentication number was given to NYCrulesU for a reason. That reason was so that he WOULDN'T be able to look it up on the MLB data base.

Because, if he did, he would see it is not listed in any way, shape, or form as a home run baseball. It's simply a game used baseball from that game.

The correct MLB database number is MR 250617.


Great catch Steve, thanks. I had the exact same idea and searched several alternate numbers and prefixes on MLB. Each search was unsuccessful. As I said, my search was random. Seems you had a more proven way to come up with the answer, search by date? Please emailme and let me know how you found the number. Thanks again.

Knowledge wins over speculation and assumptions every time. I don't mind living by common sense and gut instinct either, instead of "Hey, buy it if it's cheap. Even if it'a a fake it still was cheap." :rolleyes:

STLHAMMER32
01-11-2010, 02:23 AM
OK, I tried.

I wasn't going to post this here, but I will to prove a point.

The ball in question? I am familiar with it.

It is of my opinion that the wrong MLB authentication number was given to NYCrulesU for a reason. That reason was so that he WOULDN'T be able to look it up on the MLB data base.

Because, if he did, he would see it is not listed in any way, shape, or form as a home run baseball. It's simply a game used baseball from that game.

The correct MLB database number is MR 250617.

This is a whole new issue that the seller is lying about the prefix actually on the sticker...I thought it was already determined that the sticker said otherwise. If he is lying about what is on the sticker that is pretty pathetic and a different issue.

indyred
01-11-2010, 11:20 AM
Re: Photo matching comment by "SuicideSqueeze."


Of course I know what Photo matching is. (And we are referring to internet purchases? Right?) But you really can't do true Photo matching until you have the item in your hands. And in some(and not just a few) cases you can't do ANY matching until this occurs.(This mainly dependent on the quality of the photos).

So, unless the seller is nice enough to send you the item free of charge and wait until you photo match it,(And I have never heard of that in my life) you take some risk in making the purchase. If you do find a dealer that does this let me know. I'd love to have him send me some jerseys, photo match them, and then decide if i want to pay for them !

So the bottom line is photo matching doesn't eliminate the risk of an items authenticity in many occasions. And I know this from my own experiences. Just because I'm new to this thread,doesn't mean I don't know these things !

I've had zero problem photomatching stuff not in hand. Even with crappy pictures on NFL.com auctions it can be done pretty easily on jerseys that show use. Same goes with jerseys on Meigray site.

tjm5711
01-11-2010, 11:27 AM
I was just saying it hard to be absolute until you have the item in hand. STLHAMMER even brought up how he's seen pictures altered and placed on the Net. I wasn't saying it isn't possible to do it. Just that I have had issues in my own experience due to low quality pictures.

NYCrulesU
01-11-2010, 09:03 PM
Ok, enough is enough. This is my thread that I started looking for information about MLB authentication numbers. I'm asking both of you politely, please take your pissing match elsewhere. It's to the point of ridiculous. To have the nerve to derail someone else's thread like this is amazing.


Getting back to the point. I received a response from MLB. They agreed that it must be an MR prefix as they have never issued an "MA" prefix. I in turn sent another message to the seller. He's yet to reply and I don't expect him to at all. He now knows he's been busted.

allstarsplus
01-12-2010, 08:50 AM
It's all about "preference". I prefer that my Palmeiro signed ball be just that, his signature on a OMLB. Those can be picked up for $50-$70 all day. I prefer not to purchase a ball that is signed/inscribed as being a specific hr ball that I have ZERO chance of proving it to be real or not. I'm very particular. I will pass on 100 items just to get to the one that I'm satisfied with.

I would be embarrassed to have any item in my collection that I was't 100% confident in. Can every item be proven? No. But I would never buy something knowing from the start that there were questions surrounding it's authenticity.

authentication@website.mlb.com Send in your Hologram into that email address. Maybe they can help you. Unfortunately in the early years of the system, there are many holograms that never got entered on items.

Unfortunately i got a few bags of balls that were marked Red Sox/Yankees that MLB never entered too.

I wish you luck!

allstarsplus
01-12-2010, 02:04 PM
Tom - If I can go back to your gamble scenario for some background.

The word "Gamble". Some would say life is a gamble.

I am going to go off on a tangent to talk about gambles and authentication.

In the game used collecting, do we really know with 100% certainty that the $20,000 JO Sports jersey of Mark Sanchez was worn for the full game?

Do we know if the $1,999 MLB Authenticated ball that says it was hit by Jimmy Rollins in the 1st inning of Game 2 of the 2009 World Series really was hit by him even though the authentication says it was?

Mistakes happen and we do the best we can do by doing the homework and research and minimizing the risk of the gamble.

If I am buying the $20,000 Mark Sanchez jersey, I am still going to try to photomatch it and do the best I can do to make sure what I am getting is solid. Players do change jerseys at halftimes of games. If I am spending that type of money, I probably want a signed letter from the player stating he wore that jersey the entire game.

If I am buying a $300 authenticated football from NFL.com I probably will spend no time researching it past looking at the COA.

So for me the dollar amount spent will affect how much time and effort I will put into my own research.

As was pointed out at the beginning of this thread, the authentication sticker is on the ball but there is no history and provenance other than what the seller claims. So is the sellers claims worth spending the money and taking the risk.

There lies the problem, every buyer has their own limit to their risk they will justify in a purchase.

allstarsplus
01-12-2010, 02:12 PM
Getting back to the point. I received a response from MLB. They agreed that it must be an MR prefix as they have never issued an "MA" prefix. I in turn sent another message to the seller. He's yet to reply and I don't expect him to at all. He now knows he's been busted.

Do you have a link so we can look at the ball you were describing in this thread?

I see you collect Palmeiro and after I was searching around I found this ball on eBay.

http://cgi.ebay.com/RAFAEL-PALMEIRO-500-HR-GAME-USED-MLB-BASEBALL-MLB-HOLO_W0QQitemZ220535638160QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_De faultDomain_0?hash=item3358f2c890

tjm5711
01-12-2010, 02:16 PM
Tom - If I can go back to your gamble scenario for some background.

The word "Gamble". Some would say life is a gamble.

I am going to go off on a tangent to talk about gambles and authentication.

In the game used collecting, do we really know with 100% certainty that the $20,000 JO Sports jersey of Mark Sanchez was worn for the full game?

Do we know if the $1,999 MLB Authenticated ball that says it was hit by Jimmy Rollins in the 1st inning of Game 2 of the 2009 World Series really was hit by him even though the authentication says it was?

Mistakes happen and we do the best we can do by doing the homework and research and minimizing the risk of the gamble.

If I am buying the $20,000 Mark Sanchez jersey, I am still going to try to photomatch it and do the best I can do to make sure what I am getting is solid. Players do change jerseys at halftimes of games. If I am spending that type of money, I probably want a signed letter from the player stating he wore that jersey the entire game.

If I am buying a $300 authenticated football from NFL.com I probably will spend no time researching it past looking at the COA.

So for me the dollar amount spent will affect how much time and effort I will put into my own research.

As was pointed out at the beginning of this thread, the authentication sticker is on the ball but there is no history and provenance other than what the seller claims. So is the sellers claims worth spending the money and taking the risk.

There lies the problem, every buyer has their own limit to their risk they will justify in a purchase.



Very well said, and you're talking along the same lines I was. What I was saying earlier was that there is usually some level of risk unless the player hands it to you on the sideline. This could be a 1% risk or 90%. Who knows? When I stated this opinion of mine, I was rudely asked,"What the Hell are you talking about?" I just find it hard to be completely 100% sure just by doing homework,photo matching,etc. I didn't say we the risk of an item being fake overweighs the chances an item is authentic. I think you just reinforced what I was trying to say. It was well put, and thanks for making those points.

allstarsplus
01-12-2010, 02:37 PM
This hobby is riddled with fraud, scam artists, forgeries......it's out of control. TRUE

But to blindly buy an item, a home run ball in this case, because of the seller's claims that it is something special, with holograms that should prove it beyond any reasonable doubt, only to find out it's not real......well my friend that's not a gamble. That's stupidity. TRUE


And the support team (forum members) are here to give advice to those asking for it so those types of mistakes can be avoided. TRUE

I cleaned up Steve's 1st response and deleted out the rest and he made many good factual statements.


OK, I tried.

I wasn't going to post this here, but I will to prove a point.

The ball in question? I am familiar with it.

It is of my opinion that the wrong MLB authentication number was given to NYCrulesU for a reason. That reason was so that he WOULDN'T be able to look it up on the MLB data base.

Because, if he did, he would see it is not listed in any way, shape, or form as a home run baseball. It's simply a game used baseball from that game.

The correct MLB database number is MR 250617.

Look it up. Gain some knowledge. Experience the thrill of being educated. There is no risk when you do your homework.

By the looks of it NYCrulesU and Suicide Squeeze got to the bottom of it:


Great catch Steve, thanks. I had the exact same idea and searched several alternate numbers and prefixes on MLB. Each search was unsuccessful. As I said, my search was random. Seems you had a more proven way to come up with the answer, search by date? Please email me and let me know how you found the number. Thanks again.

Knowledge wins over speculation and assumptions every time. I don't mind living by common sense and gut instinct either, instead of "Hey, buy it if it's cheap. Even if it'a a fake it still was cheap." :rolleyes:

tjm5711
01-12-2010, 02:45 PM
I cleaned up Steve's 1st response and deleted out the rest and he made many good factual statements.



By the looks of it NYCrulesU and Suicide Squeeze got to the bottom of it:



Great idea! And if you take all the negative remarks out. He does make some good points. If he would refrain from talking down, and saying who a real collector is. It's a productive statement.

ChrisCavalier
01-12-2010, 03:26 PM
Okay, I just had the chance to read through this thread and tried to remove the personal references since the thread does have informational value.

Any future personal references will result in a locking of the thread and potential further action.

Thanks for your cooperation.

10thMan
01-12-2010, 06:39 PM
Funny, That`s MY Baseball discussed here. I believe I mentioned the Correct MLB number (not on this Thread) from the Start MR, NOT MA. I certainly have nothing to hide, in fact I made it CLEAR I`m not even interested in selling the Ball!


Here`s something Interesting, most won`t believe. It`s my Opinion this was originally listed in the MLB Database as a Home Run Baseball. It even listed the Pitcher & inning. It Now says "game used Baseball" I`ve had it about 5 years.

I attend Church with a person Involved with MLB Authentication, He`s a Senior Partner in the Firm, in other words, one of the Owners. Given the Oppty. I`m gonna inquire about the MA Prefix & older descriptions in the Database.




Who`da thunk this would go that far! Hilarious.


Go Chargers!!!

Sean

allstarsplus
01-12-2010, 07:01 PM
Funny, That`s MY Baseball discussed here. I believe I mentioned the Correct MLB number (not on this Thread) from the Start MR, NOT MA. I certainly have nothing to hide, in fact I made it CLEAR I`m not even interested in selling the Ball!

Here`s something Interesting, most won`t believe. It`s my Opinion this was originally listed in the MLB Database as a Home Run Baseball. It even listed the Pitcher & inning. It Now says "game used Baseball" I`ve had it about 5 years.

Who`da thunk this would go that far! Hilarious.

Sean

Who has access to the game film from this game?

If you do, it will be easy to tell if this has a possibility of being a HR ball. The ball has dirt in the laces and on the side panels. So if that ball landed in the stands, then it wouldn't be the HR ball as it wouldn't have that type of dirt on it.

If it landed in the bullpen, there may be some validity to it being the real HR ball as it could have landed in a dirt area.

STLHAMMER32
01-12-2010, 07:11 PM
Who has access to the game film from this game?

If you do, it will be easy to tell if this has a possibility of being a HR ball. The ball has dirt in the laces and on the side panels. So if that ball landed in the stands, then it wouldn't be the HR ball as it wouldn't have that type of dirt on it.

If it landed in the bullpen, there may be some validity to it being the real HR ball as it could have landed in a dirt area.

not necessarily, say the batter before grounds out and they they throw the ball back to the pitcher...this would leave some dirt on the ball even after a hr was hit. Video footage would show whether or not a fan got the ball though. If it landed in an area by players or staff there would be a much better chance that MLB got the ball in their possession to authenticate.

allstarsplus
01-12-2010, 07:14 PM
not necessarily, say the batter before grounds out and they they throw the ball back to the pitcher...this would leave some dirt on the ball even after a hr was hit. Video footage would show whether or not a fan got the ball though. If it landed in an area by players or staff there would be a much better chance that MLB got the ball in their possession to authenticate.

Some dirt, I may agree with you, but that much dirt they wouldn't leave in there.

STLHAMMER32
01-12-2010, 07:19 PM
Some dirt, I may agree with you, but that much dirt they wouldn't leave in there.

I would say it is unusual but far from impossible I have caught three foul balls that were cacked with dirt. Pitches in the dirt are usually replaced right away but for whatever reason ball put into play that bounce off the warning track, or consecutive batters ground out with tend to stay in play.

10thMan
01-12-2010, 07:27 PM
Important to consider ALL possibilities. With that said, some if not most venues Rinse their Seating at some point. The Bullpen is NOT the only place where a Baseball may Encounter Water/Dirt. I`ve seen plenty of Water & Dirt Residue in several So-cal Ballparks, Seating rows nearest the Fence, specially Anaheim & San Diego Stadium. Game Film MAY provide insight, we may never know.


Sean

STLHAMMER32
01-12-2010, 07:38 PM
Important to consider ALL possibilities. With that said, some if not most venues Rinse their Seating at some point. The Bullpen is NOT the only place where a Baseball may Encounter Water/Dirt. I`ve seen plenty of Water & Dirt Residue in several So-cal Ballparks, Seating rows nearest the Fence, specially Anaheim & San Diego Stadium. Game Film MAY provide insight, we may never know.


Sean


I would say the chance of a ball looking like that from being in the stands is quite a bit of a stretch and so unlikely that I would say not possible. This ball did not scrape up against a small amount of dirt. It's not the dirt that concerns me...that looks like game useage.. The explanation of the sticker is what is disturbing I am very confused...

NYCrulesU
01-12-2010, 07:52 PM
Do you have a link so we can look at the ball you were describing in this thread?

I see you collect Palmeiro and after I was searching around I found this ball on eBay.

http://cgi.ebay.com/RAFAEL-PALMEIRO-500-HR-GAME-USED-MLB-BASEBALL-MLB-HOLO_W0QQitemZ220535638160QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_De faultDomain_0?hash=item3358f2c890



Thanks Allstar. That ball is just a random ball used in his 500 hr game. No actual proven connection to Palmeiro. But thank you still.

NYCrulesU
01-12-2010, 08:25 PM
Sean/10thman,

I'm not looking to discredit you or to cause a problem. I was merely asking advice on this particular ball for reasons of verification. I don't purchase anything without doing my homework.

However, several things are not adding up.

1. You say you have no intention of selling the ball. Yet you clearly offered it to me in this thread (4th post, 1st page)http://www.gameuseduniverse.com/vb_forum/showthread.php?t=31537&highlight=palmeiro I repeatedly tried to contact you with no response. And you have it listed on Ebay to which I, not knowing it was you, contacted you, had several email conversations with you and you said you would let it go for $310. I have the emails. So, you twice offered to sell me a ball that you have no intentions of selling.

2. As far as you never telling me it was and MA prefix, well that's just a blatant lie. After seeing this Palmeiro "hr ball" on Ebay I brought it here for discussion. I contact the seller (turns out to be you) through Ebay anyway to inquire on it's authenticity. You send me, in email, this MLB Authentication # and ASI # MLB # MA250814 and Palmeiro25 # ASI3178 (copy/pasted directly from my email). In a seperate message to me through Ebay, you also gave me the same MLB Auth. # a second time. MLB # MA250814

3. I tell you in email that the Auth. # is not showing up and that MLB said they never issued an MA prefix and that's the last I heard from you until now.



This is the full pic of the MLB auth. hologram you sent me.

http://i843.photobucket.com/albums/zz353/RafaelPalmeiro25/Stuff/ball.jpg



I'm not looking to debate. I have a very accurate, documented timeline of everything that's been said by you about this ball. You clearly are here looking to back peddle on things you've said. I will will stand firmly with what I know and let everyone else make their own conclussions.

I don't think it has to be said that I am in no way interested in purchasing this item from you any longer.

joelsabi
01-13-2010, 07:46 PM
Let me throw in my 2 cents. You have to be concern with the source - ASI. Here is a homerun baseball that came from ASI:

http://cgi.ebay.com/Alex-Rodriguez-Signed-Home-Run-341-Baseball-PSA-DNA_W0QQitemZ300371148707QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_Def aultDomain_0?hash=item45ef83ffa3

There is another thread talking about these HR 341 baseballs. A member here inquired about the baseball from ASI and found through questioning that there were more than 1 baseball signed with this inscription. I do not think ASI was trying to misrepresent the baseball as the actual homerun baseball otherwise they would not have shared this with the inquiring buyer.

So if thats the case, it is just poor judgement on ASI part asking ARod to sign the baseball in such a way and knowing the potential that later on someone may try to sell this as THE actual HR 341 baseball. I am not sure what the paperwork (COA) looks like for this ARod baseballs but I assume there is some COA that states what it is.

Both Palmiero and ARod had business with ASI and i am sure that they had similar offerings of items to collectors. I am not saying that ASI did anything wrong but showed poor judgement. I dont know if ASI can be responsible for what people do with it once they buy it.

If there isnt a ASI certificate corresponding to that ASI sticker stating it is an actual homerun ball, I am inclined to agree with suicide squeeze that it is a signed baseball used in a particular game where Palmeiro happen to hit a home run.

Regards

NYCrulesU
01-13-2010, 08:21 PM
Let me throw in my 2 cents. You have to be concern with the source - ASI. Here is a homerun baseball that came from ASI:

http://cgi.ebay.com/Alex-Rodriguez-Signed-Home-Run-341-Baseball-PSA-DNA_W0QQitemZ300371148707QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_Def aultDomain_0?hash=item45ef83ffa3

There is another thread talking about these HR 341 baseballs. A member here inquired about the baseball from ASI and found through questioning that there were more than 1 baseball signed with this inscription. I do not think ASI was trying to misrepresent the baseball as the actual homerun baseball otherwise they would not have shared this with the inquiring buyer.

So if thats the case, it is just poor judgement on ASI part asking ARod to sign the baseball in such a way and knowing the potential that later on someone may try to sell this as THE actual HR 341 baseball. I am not sure what the paperwork (COA) looks like for this ARod baseballs but I assume there is some COA that states what it is.

Both Palmiero and ARod had business with ASI and i am sure that they had similar offerings of items to collectors. I am not saying that ASI did anything wrong but showed poor judgement. I dont know if ASI can be responsible for what people do with it once they buy it.

If there isnt a ASI certificate corresponding to that ASI sticker stating it is an actual homerun ball, I am inclined to agree with suicide squeeze that it is a signed baseball used in a particular game where Palmeiro happen to hit a home run.

Regards



If you look at this thread, where I was first offered this ball, http://www.gameuseduniverse.com/vb_forum/showthread.php?t=31537&highlight=palmeiro you'll see I asked the very same question. "Is this an actual hr ball hit by Palmeiro or just a ball used in a game that Palmeiro homered in?" To which I never received an answer, and still haven't.

Sorry, not looking to rock the boat here but I speak my mind at all times. I simply refuse to ever deal with someone that avoids answering questions asked about their items that they offer for sale. The same question was asked here on the forum, through email and through Ebay. So no excuse can be made that the question wasn't received or that insufficient time was given for a response.

joelsabi
01-13-2010, 10:37 PM
If you look at this thread, where I was first offered this ball, http://www.gameuseduniverse.com/vb_forum/showthread.php?t=31537&highlight=palmeiro you'll see I asked the very same question. "Is this an actual hr ball hit by Palmeiro or just a ball used in a game that Palmeiro homered in?" To which I never received an answer, and still haven't.

Sorry, not looking to rock the boat here but I speak my mind at all times. I simply refuse to ever deal with someone that avoids answering questions asked about their items that they offer for sale. The same question was asked here on the forum, through email and through Ebay. So no excuse can be made that the question wasn't received or that insufficient time was given for a response.

on your correspondence with owener, what was the hr inscription on the baseball? (ie. Rafael Palmeiro Home run #434)

joelsabi
01-13-2010, 10:43 PM
Sean/10thman,

I'm not looking to discredit you or to cause a problem. I was merely asking advice on this particular ball for reasons of verification. I don't purchase anything without doing my homework.

However, several things are not adding up.


2. As far as you never telling me it was and MA prefix, well that's just a blatant lie. After seeing this Palmeiro "hr ball" on Ebay I brought it here for discussion. I contact the seller (turns out to be you) through Ebay anyway to inquire on it's authenticity. You send me, in email, this MLB Authentication # and ASI # MLB # MA250814 and Palmeiro25 # ASI3178 (copy/pasted directly from my email). In a seperate message to me through Ebay, you also gave me the same MLB Auth. # a second time. MLB # MA250814 .




opps i just located the photo of the baseball. i noticed also that the asi sticker on the email and on the photo of the baseabll are different or dont match.

joelsabi
01-13-2010, 11:01 PM
opps i just located the photo of the baseball. i noticed also that the asi sticker on the email and on the photo of the baseabll are different or dont match.

MA250814 is really MR250614.


Hologram number MR250614 was located in the MLB Authentication Database under BALLS.
Session Product Description: GAME USED BALL (TEX/DET)
Game: TEXAS RANGERS V. DETROIT TIGERS - AUGUST 13,2003Session Name: DETROIT TIGERS @ TEXAS RANGERS
Session Date: August 13, 2003
Autographer:
Authenticator: AUTHENTICATORS, INC.

Those small stickers are hard to read and are really brittle. I wouldnt be surprised if the printed letter and numbers on the silvery sticker are smudged or the person needs to use a magnifying glass to get the proper read.


There are 6 baseball authenticated on that date. MR250613 thru MR250618 so Steve (suicide_squeeze) was in the correct vacinity) MR251614 seems more logical since its one letter and one number off. With 6 baseballs authenticated, I would not be surprised if there other similar baseballs with the same inscription out there based on what ASI did with the ARod baseball I mentioned earlier.

Regards

Joel

joelsabi
01-13-2010, 11:09 PM
The correct MLB database number is MR 250617.

amazing read Steve. I had to use the photo from the owner to get my answer. you figured it out prior to the owner posting that photo. nice work.

NYCrulesU
01-13-2010, 11:16 PM
on your correspondence with owener, what was the hr inscription on the baseball? (ie. Rafael Palmeiro Home run #434)

Same as pics here show. 8/13/03, hr #29.

joelsabi
01-13-2010, 11:28 PM
Same as pics here show. 8/13/03, hr #29.

yeah i mentioned I found it and posted my conclusion.

NYCrulesU
01-13-2010, 11:39 PM
Sean, you claim you have nothing to hide? Well, to go along with the wrong authentication numbers you gave me, you lying about the ball not being for sale when in fact you offered it to me twice, it also appears that you have multiple baseballs with the same identical inscription. It appears Joelsabi is correct. There are many of these "game used" baseballs that were falsley inscribed by the player. I am sure you are aware of this, since you clearly own more than one copy. By you attempting to pass this ball off as the one and only "8/13/03 hr #29" hit by Rafael Palmeiro, you sir have placed yourself into a very specific category. I will let the proof speak for itself.


Please be sure to look at the dates/inscription and how they line up with each other. The first two pics are of one baseball, while the last pic is of a completely different baseball. Both bearing the "8/13/03 hr #29" inscription.



EBAY AUCTION PIC
http://i843.photobucket.com/albums/zz353/RafaelPalmeiro25/Stuff/1243_1.jpg


PIC OF THE SAME BALL THAT YOU EMAILED TO ME ON 1/9/10
http://i843.photobucket.com/albums/zz353/RafaelPalmeiro25/Stuff/ball2.jpg



PIC OF BALL YOU TOOK & POSTED ON 1/12/10
http://i843.photobucket.com/albums/zz353/RafaelPalmeiro25/Stuff/raffy20inscrip.jpg

joelsabi
01-13-2010, 11:55 PM
Sean, you claim you have nothing to hide? Well, to go along with the wrong authentication numbers you gave me, you lying about the ball not being for sale when in fact you offered it to me twice, it also appears that you have multiple baseballs with the same identical inscription. It appears Joelsabi is correct. There are many of these "game used" baseballs that were falsley inscribed by the player. I am sure you are aware of this, since you clearly own more than one copy. By you attempting to pass this ball off as the one and only "8/13/03 hr #29" hit by Rafael Palmeiro, you sir have placed yourself into a very specific category. I will let the proof speak for itself.




Falsely inscribed by the player is kinda harsh. I have not doubt that ASI did not misrepresent this baseball as the actual homerun baseball when they initially. The same person providing photos of two different baseballs with different ASI stickers with the same insription seem to confirms this. This is kinda sickening to the stomach.

10thMan
01-14-2010, 12:06 AM
No, Nothing to hide here. Looks like there are 2 Game used Baseballs with the same Inscription. Not sure what you mean by "I have more than one Copy" Seems kinda like a sick thing to ASSUME. If I had 6, I`d tell you, but you dont know me.

Steve, several things I`d recommend...

#1 Re-read the e-mail I sent you, I`m sure you`ve probably saved it, you seem like the type. See anything about a price, or offer? Nope, I made it Clear I`m not interested in selling the Baseball. Why? because I`m an Ethical person. I`m not certain that it`s a real homer ball, that simple. It IS a nice game used Ball for sure. To ASSUME PUBLICLY, that I`m the type to perform ANY type of Scam is Crazy. You dont have to believe ANYTHING I SAY OR TYPE, I`m ok with that.

#2 STOP E-MAILING ME. I`m not confused here for one second. I`m getting e-mails from 2 different guys that use the same dotcom website, Both use different first names, I believe BOTH are you.

#3 I`ve dealt (successfully) off this Forum with Jim Caravello, Eric S, Tim Byington (regularly) Jeff Scott (regularly) as well as a dozen others, without ONE SINGLE ISSUE. I have both Bought & sold.

All I gotta say, Dont e-mail me anymore, what your Implying here is EXTREMELY SICK TO ME.


Sean

NYCrulesU
01-14-2010, 12:15 AM
No, Nothing to hide here. Looks like there are 2 Game used Baseballs with the same Inscription. Not sure what you mean by "I have more than one Copy" Seems kinda like a sick thing to ASSUME. If I had 6, I`d tell you, but you dont know me.

Steve, several things I`d recommend...

#1 Re-read the e-mail I sent you, I`m sure you`ve probably saved it, you seem like the type. See anything about a price, or offer? Nope, I made it Clear I`m not interested in selling the Baseball. Why? because I`m an Ethical person. I`m not certain that it`s a real homer ball, that simple. It IS a nice game used Ball for sure. To ASSUME PUBLICLY, that I`m the type to perform ANY type of Scam is Crazy. You dont have to believe ANYTHING I SAY OR TYPE, I`m ok with that.

#2 STOP E-MAILING ME. I`m not confused here for one second. I`m getting e-mails from 2 different guys that use the same dotcom website, Both use different first names, I believe BOTH are you.

#3 I`ve dealt (successfully) off this Forum with Jim Caravello, Eric S, Tim Byington (regularly) Jeff Scott (regularly) as well as a dozen others, without ONE SINGLE ISSUE. I have both Bought & sold.

All I gotta say, Dont e-mail me anymore, what your Implying here is EXTREMELY SICK TO ME.


Sean



Just want to be clear here. Are you claiming that both of these baseball are not yours? That you only own one of them?

NYCrulesU
01-14-2010, 12:54 AM
Now I see why I receive daily emails from some of the more respected former members telling me not to even bother here. I've turned this matter over to the moderators. I don't appreciate someone blatantly offering me an item for sale that is not exactly what it is advertised to be. Then, to top it off, he denies ever offering it to me.

In my book this constitutes an offer of sale. 10thman's direct post copy/pasted.

10thMan (http://www.gameuseduniverse.com/vb_forum/member.php?u=1569) http://www.gameuseduniverse.com/vb_forum/images/statusicon/user_offline.gif vbmenu_register("postmenu_177765", true);
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 236

http://www.gameuseduniverse.com/vb_forum/images/icons/icon1.gif Re: Rafael Palmeiro
NYC, I have a Palmeiro MLB Authenticated Home Run Baseball. Signed perfectly, with an Inscription. I believe it`s an actual Homer due to the fact that it was probably over the fence, it`s really dirty, not just "Rubbed" It`s in the MLB "Database"
Interested, send me an e-mail. I normally dont check this Board for Replies.

tempbreak at hotmail dot com

Sean

joelsabi
01-14-2010, 01:20 AM
Falsely inscribed by the player is kinda harsh. I have not doubt that ASI did not misrepresent this baseball as the actual homerun baseball when they initially. The same person providing photos of two different baseballs with different ASI stickers with the same insription seem to confirms this. This is kinda sickening to the stomach.

Just to clarifying. i was saying that i have no problem with asi selling 6 baseballs with the same insciption provided that the baseballs were disclosed to not be the homerun baseball.

i do have a problem with a person misrepresenting it in the future.

if the guy emailing the photo and the guy posting on the forum are the same person then there is no doubt that he has been in possession of two baseballs. pictures do not lie.

owning one baseball could conceivably make a person believe they own a actual homerun baseball. however, owning two baseballs with the same description seems to provide additional information. it would seem to eliminate the belief of the owner of the two baseballs with the same exact hr inscription that either one of the baseballs is an actual homerun baseball. to say otherwise is deceptive.

10thMan
01-14-2010, 02:21 PM
Steve, You Jumped the Gun here Buddy, BIG TIME. Not only did you state that I have "2 Copies" but that I`m inscribing them. Pretty Sick Dude!!!

I have a Game used Baseball, signed by Palmeiro, that`s it. FOR YOU, or ANYONE else to suggest more than this is astonishing.

This Item was NEVER offered for Sale, I confirmed this with the email I sent you Steve!!! No money is mentioned, or suggested. Let me remind you, I said "I`m not sure what I have" I WAS & HAVE BEEN TOTALLY HONEST & UPFRONT ABOUT THIS BASEBALL.

Dont get too carried away with me believing this MAY have been a Homer ball, I`m not confused here dude. I know what I said.

Steve, this is TOTALLY DISRESPECTFUL & AN ATTCK ON ME. Let me remind you, you`ve recently been re-instated on this Board. Not only have you disrespected Me, you`ve sent me Nasty e-mails calling Chris some RUDE, PROFANE names. I HAVE THOSE E-MAILS.

You`ve proven yourself to be extremley disrespectful, OVERLY AND UNFAIRLY CRITICAL of others. This is FAR more than simply offering an Opinion.

Sean

suicide_squeeze
01-14-2010, 03:36 PM
Steve, You Jumped the Gun here Buddy, BIG TIME. Not only did you state that I have "2 Copies" but that I`m inscribing them. Pretty Sick Dude!!!

I have a Game used Baseball, signed by Palmeiro, that`s it. FOR YOU, or ANYONE else to suggest more than this is astonishing.


Um.......Sean.

You have me confused with someone else. I never said you had two of anything. Check back on the thread. Someone else said that.

I am sorry if you thought or felt otherwise.

Steve

suicide_squeeze
01-14-2010, 03:54 PM
Steve, You Jumped the Gun here Buddy, BIG TIME. Not only did you state that I have "2 Copies" but that I`m inscribing them. Pretty Sick Dude!!!

I have a Game used Baseball, signed by Palmeiro, that`s it. FOR YOU, or ANYONE else to suggest more than this is astonishing.

Sean


Sean,

In referring to your post above, the portion highlighted and enlarged, I want to be clear.

I never said anything of the sort. You have me confused with soemone else here.

I understand why you are upset, but please don't mistake another member's words here for mine.

And below, where you refer to two different ".com" names emailing you that you feel are the same person? I am publicly stating that you are incorrect in assuming they are both me. I don't play silly games like that.

I hope you can get your point across without any further anger slung in my direction. You chose to come on this thread and defend yourself when you hadn't even been identified as the seller. You have nothing to prove to me. It's the other two or three members here who are calling you out.

I have no hand in this argument, nor do I want one. I also have no opinion on any prior "correspondence" you've had with any other members here regarding this ball, as I was not privied to it, and don't care to be.

Good luck,

Steve

joelsabi
01-14-2010, 05:06 PM
I am not privy to the email sent so I am not calling anyone out neither. Right now its hearsay because I cannot verify the ebay seller or the said emails between the buyer and seller.

Pictures don't lie but the source of the photos have not been proven.

joelsabi
01-14-2010, 05:27 PM
Sean,

In referring to your post above, the portion highlighted and enlarged, I want to be clear.

I never said anything of the sort. You have me confused with soemone else here.

I understand why you are upset, but please don't mistake another member's words here for mine.

And below, where you refer to two different ".com" names emailing you that you feel are the same person? I am publicly stating that you are incorrect in assuming they are both me. I don't play silly games like that.

I hope you can get your point across without any further anger slung in my direction. You chose to come on this thread and defend yourself when you hadn't even been identified as the seller. You have nothing to prove to me. It's the other two or three members here who are calling you out.

I have no hand in this argument, nor do I want one. I also have no opinion on any prior "correspondence" you've had with any other members here regarding this ball, as I was not privied to it, and don't care to be.

Good luck,

Steve

Sean

Its Sean that is calling you out. The person who started the thread. It would be stupid if Sean and Steve were the same guy since IP Addresses can be tracked by the moderator.

NYCrulesU
01-15-2010, 01:31 AM
Steve, You Jumped the Gun here Buddy, BIG TIME. Not only did you state that I have "2 Copies" but that I`m inscribing them. Pretty Sick Dude!!!

I have a Game used Baseball, signed by Palmeiro, that`s it. FOR YOU, or ANYONE else to suggest more than this is astonishing.

This Item was NEVER offered for Sale, I confirmed this with the email I sent you Steve!!! No money is mentioned, or suggested. Let me remind you, I said "I`m not sure what I have" I WAS & HAVE BEEN TOTALLY HONEST & UPFRONT ABOUT THIS BASEBALL.

Dont get too carried away with me believing this MAY have been a Homer ball, I`m not confused here dude. I know what I said.

Steve, this is TOTALLY DISRESPECTFUL & AN ATTCK ON ME. Let me remind you, you`ve recently been re-instated on this Board. Not only have you disrespected Me, you`ve sent me Nasty e-mails calling Chris some RUDE, PROFANE names. I HAVE THOSE E-MAILS.

You`ve proven yourself to be extremley disrespectful, OVERLY AND UNFAIRLY CRITICAL of others. This is FAR more than simply offering an Opinion.

Sean

Ummm, "dude". MY name is not Steve. Get you fact straight. You're too busy lying that you have people mixed up with one another.

You offered this fake hr ball tome for sale. You lied and said you didn't. And that's the least of your offenses.

10thMan
01-15-2010, 03:12 AM
Steve, I own you an Apology. Looks like I`ve gotten at least one name/member wrong. I`ve pretty much gotten hammered by no less than 3 people e-mailing me, no excuses on my part.




Here`s what should be made clear...I have ONE Game used Baseball, signed by Raffy. I asked one member if he was interested in it, that simple. I looked at the MLB database & wasnt CERTAIN it was a Homer Ball, but thought it was possible, nothing more. I made it CLEAR I wasnt sure what I had & didn`t intend to sell it.

Not only do I hear I have more than one Copy, Of Similar Ball, But I`m a "Fraud" & it`s assumed (& stated) I`m Inscribing Baseballs...I`m also told that I sent the wrong MLB database Number, not too big a deal, But I didnt.

This is a DIRECT ATTACK ON MY CHARACTER. Disagree, I`m cool, Call me a "Fraud" I`m upset, this is TOTALLY UNAPPROPRIATE & UNCALLED FOR.

I`m fairly certain the "main" guy attacking me does NOT want me to send Admin. e-mails calling our "main" man the "C" word.


One more thing, those of you that love to get really "Creative" with Cut/Copy/Paste....DON`T EDIT, COPY THE ENTIRE THING. I read most of these Arguments, 90% of the time, they`re simply designed to make someone look bad. People of Confidence/Character don`t behave this way, THEY DON`T HAVE TO.


Again, I apologize.

Sean

joelsabi
01-15-2010, 12:48 PM
it is better to actually email people than speculate on the MA sticker.

Here is MLB Authentication response:

We believe you probably have an MR hologram since we have not issued an MA version. The MR hologram is from Deloitte & Touche. From May 2002 through January 2006, the firm of Deloitte & Touche was the exclusive third-party Authenticator for all items under the MLB Authentication Program. As Authenticator, Deloitte was solely responsible for all authentication and data entry of the hologram numbers placed on autographed items and game-used memorabilia. Unfortunately, MLB has no direct access to this data. You can try contacting Joe Lopez at Deloitte for more information at jlopez@deloitte.com. Please let us know if there is anything else we can help you with.

suicide_squeeze
01-15-2010, 01:12 PM
Steve, I own you an Apology. Looks like I`ve gotten at least one name/member wrong. I`ve pretty much gotten hammered by no less than 3 people e-mailing me, no excuses on my part.




Here`s what should be made clear...I have ONE Game used Baseball, signed by Raffy. I asked one member if he was interested in it, that simple. I looked at the MLB database & wasnt CERTAIN it was a Homer Ball, but thought it was possible, nothing more. I made it CLEAR I wasnt sure what I had & didn`t intend to sell it.

Not only do I hear I have more than one Copy, Of Similar Ball, But I`m a "Fraud" & it`s assumed (& stated) I`m Inscribing Baseballs...I`m also told that I sent the wrong MLB database Number, not too big a deal, But I didnt.

This is a DIRECT ATTACK ON MY CHARACTER. Disagree, I`m cool, Call me a "Fraud" I`m upset, this is TOTALLY UNAPPROPRIATE & UNCALLED FOR.

I`m fairly certain the "main" guy attacking me does NOT want me to send Admin. e-mails calling our "main" man the "C" word.


One more thing, those of you that love to get really "Creative" with Cut/Copy/Paste....DON`T EDIT, COPY THE ENTIRE THING. I read most of these Arguments, 90% of the time, they`re simply designed to make someone look bad. People of Confidence/Character don`t behave this way, THEY DON`T HAVE TO.


Again, I apologize.

Sean


Sean,

Apology accepted, thank you.

With my recent troubles on the GUU, I didn't need more issues to explain to Chris Cavalier who is ready to pull the plug on me again. So I appreciate you clarifying things here.

All I can state publicly here is that you never offered the ball to me for sale. So I hope that helps.

Steve

suicide_squeeze
01-15-2010, 01:20 PM
it is better to actually email people than speculate on the MA sticker.

Here is MLB Authentication response:

We believe you probably have an MR hologram since we have not issued an MA version. The MR hologram is from Deloitte & Touche. From May 2002 through January 2006, the firm of Deloitte & Touche was the exclusive third-party Authenticator for all items under the MLB Authentication Program. As Authenticator, Deloitte was solely responsible for all authentication and data entry of the hologram numbers placed on autographed items and game-used memorabilia. Unfortunately, MLB has no direct access to this data. You can try contacting Joe Lopez at Deloitte for more information at jlopez@deloitte.com. Please let us know if there is anything else we can help you with.


Great, so a bunch of bean counters are directly responsible for this gig? Like that's supposed to add credibility to the event??

I would be remiss if I didn't point out that "The BIG EIGHT" has been reduced to the "BIG FOUR".....because of all the fraud perpetrated by these accounting firms during the Wall Street debacle early this past decade.

I guess soon KPMG will be A-Rod's rep, and overseeing all of his signings? :rolleyes:

joelsabi
01-15-2010, 01:29 PM
Great, so a bunch of bean counters are directly responsible for this gig? Like that's supposed to add credibility to the event??

I would be remiss if I didn't point out that "The BIG EIGHT" has been reduced to the "BIG FOUR".....because of all the fraud perpetrated by these accounting firms during the Wall Street debacle early this past decade.

I guess soon KPMG will be A-Rod's rep, and overseeing all of his signings? :rolleyes:

if KPMG is good enough to oversee the votes for miss universe, that good enough for me :D