Paypal Frustration ! Suggestions?

[b.heagy]

I sold a number of items to the same buyer via ebay. I normally do not ship outside the US or Canada. I made an exception for a buyer from Russia. I mailed the items via Priority mail international in a flat rate envelope (items were flats). The customs number on the package is LC192071365US which shows that the package was shipped December 10, 2009. The buyer filed a claim through paypal (or screwyoupal - from another thread) yesterday. The money was taken immediatley from my account. No insurance or other means of tracking was purchased by the buyer.. Are my hands tied in this situation? Seems like I am going to be out of the money and the merchandise. I feel for the buyer but they had not purchased insurance or other tracking sevices (due to expenses I presume). I tried calling the 1800 number on USPS but was on hold for an hour ! (I gave up). Any input or advice is greatly appreciated.

[Rossi46]

I know that PayPal will take the money out of your account as soon as someone files something against you. That doesn't mean that your 100% out of your money. I've had this happen to me before as well and the money was returned to me once the item was delivered. I would see if you could get in contact with the buyer and explain to him that it might take a while for a package to get to him. I will say that PayPal needs to change some things because there are too many ways for buyers to screw sellers, thats for sure. Hope everything works out for you.

[TriplexXxSports]

DOES IT COME UP AS DELIVERED IN THE SYSTEM WHEN YOU ENTER THE CUSTOMS NUMBER?

The customs number that you have on the original shipping label will tell you if & when the item was delivered.

Once you see that the item has been delivered provide that information to PAYPAL and they should close the claim and release the funds.

[TriplexXxSports]

Scratch that. I checked it out. Once it is delivered the system will update it as being delivered. Once that happens submit that to PAYPAL, and they should have what they need to drop the claim.

[TriplexXxSports]

Sorry, one more thing. It looks like it is going on a month. I would call the post office with that tracking number and try and locate it (even if it means you are on hold for an hour). It should have been there by now.

You need to locate your package first.....

[Lokee]

Something i found out last week is that Flat Rate Envelopes shipping international are NOT trackable. No matter how you do it they CANNOT be tracked if shipped international. This is part of USPS's way to make you spend more money to use priority. Just a heads up !

[CampWest]

Scratch that. I checked it out. Once it is delivered the system will update it as being delivered. Once that happens submit that to PAYPAL, and they should have what they need to drop the claim.


Huh... Are you positive? The USPS always told me they cannot provide proof of delivery. Specifically, once its handed off to another country's postal service, the USPS has no further knowledge or involvement. I shipped a couple items to UK and was unable to confirm delivery, I required international money orders on those.

[Lokee]

also here is the link

http://www.usps.com/prices/priority-mail-international-prices.htm

Scroll near the bottom under the fine print next to the -* symbol.

[both-teams-played-hard]

Hear me now, believe me later.

PayPal will give the buyer's money back unless a tracking number is issued to an international package.
The Post Office only issues tracking numbers to international mail when using EXPRESS MAIL and REGISTERED MAIL.

A customs number does NOT constitute a tracking number. They DO NOT confirm delivery. They confirm that the package was sent and when the package crossed the border and reached customs. Just call PayPal.

[jtorrez]

I feel for the buyer but they had not purchased insurance or other tracking sevices (due to expenses I presume). I tried calling the 1800 number on USPS but was on hold for an hour ! (I gave up). Any input or advice is greatly appreciated.

It is not the responsibility of the buyer to buy insurance or tracking, it is the responsibility of the seller to make sure that the package arrives. If you felt that way you should have refused to sell & ship it unless the buyer purchased insurance and tracking.

[both-teams-played-hard]

It is not the responsibility of the buyer to buy insurance or tracking, it is the responsibility of the seller to make sure that the package arrives. If you felt that way you should have refused to sell & ship it unless the buyer purchased insurance and tracking.

This is true. This is the stance of PayPal and eBay.

[otismalibu]

It is not the responsibility of the buyer to buy insurance or tracking, it is the responsibility of the seller to make sure that the package arrives.

Yep. It sucks when stuff gets lost, broken, stolen, etc. But it's up to the seller to insure.

[jbsportstuff]

I too have been stung by Ebay and Paypal. I didn't provide a tracking number, the seller says they didn't get their stuff, and they kept the item AND got their money back.

The really terrible thing is that I had an e-mail from the buyer telling me they had received the product and didn't understand why this issue was happening. I sent that to both Ebay and Paypal and they said that they cannot accept E-mails as proof of delivery. Obviously my buyer was a liar and a crook....but they won... Fortunately, the purchase wasn't a lot of money. I learned my lesson that no matter what...I have a tracking number. Increase your shipping costs and that will cover it.

[TriplexXxSports]

.....They DO NOT confirm delivery. They confirm that the package was sent and when the package crossed the border and reached customs...

If you ship it Priority International (label printed online w/ delivery confirmation included) it will show that the item is delivered. It will not list the international address or postal code, but you can cross reference that information with a copy of the original shipping label.

When you print online for international Priority, you end up printing 4 forms. 3 need to be signed and sent with the package for customs and the 4th is the senders copy. If you have this form (w/ custom's number) and you can verify on USPS.com that it says the package was delivered, you are all good. That is proof of delivery and is enough for PayPal.

[TDKID]

Hey guys, check these sites out ! a lot of people hate PayPal. Me(Jack btw) included.

http://www.PayPalSucks.ORG/

http://www.paypalsucks.com/forums/showthread.php?fid=15&tid=3602

[b.heagy]

I appreciate all the responses, all have been insightful/helpful. In the end this has been an eye opening experience for how the ebay system works. I have been selling on ebay for years now and have had a few trials and tribulations but this is the first of this nature for me. Hands down discourages me from dealing over seas anymore. The buyers complain about paying the higher shipping and/or insurance but in the end the seller is left holding the empty bag in some cases, not saying the buyer should absorb the loss in all cases but I did exactly what I was required to do. I sold the item, shipped it immediatley - post office screwed it up - plain and simple. How do I know the buyer does not have the items? He only filed the claim after I had left positive feedback. To his credit he does have 100% positive feedback.

[both-teams-played-hard]

If you ship it Priority International (label printed online w/ delivery confirmation included) it will show that the item is delivered. It will not list the international address or postal code, but you can cross reference that information with a copy of the original shipping label.

When you print online for international Priority, you end up printing 4 forms. 3 need to be signed and sent with the package for customs and the 4th is the senders copy. If you have this form (w/ custom's number) and you can verify on USPS.com that it says the package was delivered, you are all good. That is proof of delivery and is enough for PayPal.

Have you ever had a buyer dispute and satisfied a PayPal claim with a customs number? I just spoke with PayPal and USPS. A Priority International package is not trackable. A customs number is not a tracking number. PayPal must have a tracking number to verify delivery. EXPRESS mail and REGISTERED MAIL are USPS's only services that give a tracking number. A customs number proves that the package made it to the country of destination, but PayPal does not recognize it as being delivered. You are fortunate that you have not done business with a dishonest buyer.

[TriplexXxSports]

Have you ever had a buyer dispute and satisfied a PayPal claim with a customs number?

Yes.

[jays78]

I live in Canada, I don't think that Russia has this type of system, but if you enter a USPS tracking number into the Canada Post system on their site after it has crossed the border into Canada, then it will give all of the detailed package transit info up until delivery.

[topekabob]

I've spent some time in Russia. I wouldn't ship anything of any value to Russia ever. The odds of it getting to the Russian person aren't good. Some people in the Russian post office will literally just open the box and take it. I'm not saying it happens all the time, but it happens.
You should see how the police operate the "pay your traffic ticket on the spot" system...

[hrvatwill]

Just want to second what topekabob said. I was going to write this yesterday but since I've dealt w/Bill a few times and find him to be an extremely pleasant fellow, I didn't want to add to his frustration.

PLEASE DO NOT EVER SEND ANYTHING OF VALUE THERE. I have spend a lot of time in that country over the last year and unfortunately have had many eye opening experiences, with the standard police practice of "I'll pull you over for no reason because I want a bribe" merely scratching the surface.......

........that said, I do love many aspects of HMR, so I don't want to give the impression of denigrating the entire country, which would be patently unfair....

[TriplexXxSports]

I was not able to find my exact case that applies to this matter however, I did speak with 'Dawn' this morning at PayPal in regards to international disputes and what is required of the seller to make a valid claim against a chargeback for an 'item not received' or 'item significantly not as described'.

She pointed me to the 'User Agreement' section of the website that provides the information regarding this matter. This text was copied directly from PayPal's website (please be sure to take specific note to sections 11.4 and 11.5):

11. Protection For Sellers.


11.1 What is PayPal seller protection?
Protection for Claims, Chargebacks, or Reversals based on the following reasons:
Unauthorized Transaction
Item Not ReceivedSeller protection is available for eligible payments from buyers in any country.

11.2 How much protection is provided by PayPal seller protection?
PayPal will protect you for the full amount of the eligible payment and waive the Chargeback Fee, if applicable. There is no limit on the number of payments for which you can receive coverage.

11.3 What are the eligibility requirements for PayPal seller protection?
You must meet all of the basic requirements listed below: In addition, you must meet the Item Not Received requirements to be covered for Items Not Received and the Unauthorized Transactions requirements to be covered for Unauthorized Transactions.

Basic Requirements:
Ship the item to the shipping address on the “Transaction Details” page.
Respond to PayPal’s requests for documentation and other information in a timely manner.
The item must be a physical, tangible good that can be shipped.
Your primary residence, as listed in your PayPal Account, must be in the United States.Item Not Received Requirements:
The payment must be marked “eligible” or “partially eligible” for seller protection on the Transaction Details Page.
You must have a Proof of Delivery.
You must ship the item within 7 days of receipt of payment. Or, if the payment is for pre-ordered or made-to-order goods, shipment is required within the timeframe specified in your item listing.Unauthorized Transactions Requirements:
The payment must be marked “eligible” for seller protection on the Transaction Details Page.
You must have a Proof of Shipment or a Proof of Delivery.11.4 What is “Proof of Shipment”?
Online or physical documentation from a shipping company that includes all of the following:
The date the item is shipped.
The recipient’s address, showing at least the city/state or zip code (or international equivalent).11.5 What is “Proof of Delivery”? Online documentation from a shipping company that includes all of the following:
The date the item is delivered.
The recipient’s address, showing at least the city/state or zip code (or international equivalent).
Signature Confirmation for payments of $250 USD or more (see Foreign Currency Equivalents below).No where in their policy does it state that they will not accept a customs code as proof of delivery. According to the agent that I spoke with, and the policy text above, in order to be protected as a seller all you need is proof that the item was mailed & delivered (mailing date, physical address of delivery, and date of delivery). This can all be found using the customs code.

Below is a copy of an international transaction that I had, and according to the policy above, everything that is needed to protect the seller is provided. Dawn confirmed that this information is what is required.

.

[kudu]

From what I understand, "online proof of delivery" is needed for Paypals satisfaction, as noted in their rule 11.5. On your online customs number delivery confirmation, it does not show the state/city or zip code of the recipients address, which is required by Paypal in rule 11.5

[Lokee]

I wish everyone would pay attention.

TRACKING DOES NOT WORK INTERNATIONALLY WITH THE FOLLOWING:

1. Flate Rate Envelope

2. Small Flat Rate Box

END OF STORY

XXX you must have shipped a normal priority box to Canada to get tracking or a customs number.

[TriplexXxSports]

From what I understand, "online proof of delivery" is needed for Paypals satisfaction, as noted in their rule 11.5. On your online customs number delivery confirmation, it does not show the state/city or zip code of the recipients address, which is required by Paypal in rule 11.5

That's why you cross reference the customs code online along with the copy of the original shipping label that has the delivery address.

[TriplexXxSports]

I wish everyone would pay attention.

TRACKING DOES NOT WORK INTERNATIONALLY WITH THE FOLLOWING:

1. Flate Rate Envelope

2. Small Flat Rate Box

END OF STORY

XXX you must have shipped a normal priority box to Canada to get tracking or a customs number.

Yes, it was Priority International. I will not ship flat rate.

[kudu]

That's why you cross reference the customs code online along with the copy of the original shipping label that has the delivery address.

Yes, from our vantage point, cross referrencing would solve the situation. But according to Paypals 11.5 rule, the online delivery confirmation must have the state/city or zip code of the recipients address. I guess Paypal is too lazy to cross reference.

[TriplexXxSports]

Yes, from our vantage point, cross referrencing would solve the situation. But according to Paypals 11.5 rule, the online delivery confirmation must have the state/city or zip code of the recipients address. I guess Paypal is too lazy to cross reference.

....or international equivalency.....which is a copy of the original shipping label with the said customs code and the buyers physical address.

[kudu]

....or international equivalency.....which is a copy of the original shipping label with the said customs code and the buyers physical address.

Your original shipping label only covers rule 11.4. Your online delivery confirmation must have "The recipient’s address, showing at least the city/state or zip code (or international equivalent)". The screen shot of your delivery confirmation only says "CANADA".