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joelsabi
02-22-2010, 06:38 PM
We as collectors rely on year tags on jerseys, center branding on bats, and baseball logos on baseballs as one of the factors when determining the origin of a game used item. When manufacturers change the year tags, center brandings, or baseball logos, sometimes there is some inconsistencies that happen which can be explained by a carryover of a product. Manufacturers, team equipment managers, and players will not throw out equipment if it is usable. For example, Dave caught a 2000 HR baseball at Wrigley with a Bulig logo, Stephenson wore a 1993 Mets Jersey with a 1992 year tag, or Thurman Munson used a bicentennial bat in 1997.

Just curious about your opinion on carryover since I have seen collectors pass on an item for this very reason.

Do you think carryover is an issue when selecting items for your collection? Do you think it affects the value of the item either positively or negatively compared to the value of otherwise identical equipment from that year? Would the length of the carryover (example, ½ season, 1 year, 2 years, 3 years) ever factor into your decision? Does the era in which the item was produced also affect your decision as well.

legaleagle92481
02-22-2010, 06:52 PM
We as collectors rely on year tags on jerseys, center branding on bats, and baseball logos on baseballs as one of the factors when determining the origin of a game used item. When manufacturers change the year tags, center brandings, or baseball logos, sometimes there is some inconsistencies that happen which can be explained by a carryover of a product. Manufacturers, team equipment managers, and players will not throw out equipment if it is usable. For example, Dave caught a 2000 HR baseball at Wrigley with a Bulig logo, Stephenson wore a 1993 Mets Jersey with a 1992 year tag, or Thurman Munson used a bicentennial bat in 1997.

Just curious about your opinion on carryover since I have seen collectors pass on an item for this very reason.

Do you think carryover is an issue when selecting items for your collection? Do you think it affects the value of the item either positively or negatively compared to the value of otherwise identical equipment from that year? Would the length of the carryover (example, ½ season, 1 year, 2 years, 3 years) ever factor into your decision? Does the era in which the item was produced also affect your decision as well.

Not really as long as the item is authentic it does not affect my purchasing decision one way or the other. In some cases would it be great to have the item tagged from a certain year? Of course like a Yankees jersey from 2009 tagged as 09 when they won the World Series rather than tagged as 08 when they did not make the playoffs.

cigarman44
02-22-2010, 07:43 PM
I was curious about the carryover on baseballs in 2000 when they switched to the unified ball. I was offered a National League ball that was being sold as a ball from 2000. I figured there might be some carryover but was told that it couldn't have happened. So I passed on the ball.

ironmanfan
02-22-2010, 08:04 PM
I was curious about the carryover on baseballs in 2000 when they switched to the unified ball. I was offered a National League ball that was being sold as a ball from 2000. I figured there might be some carryover but was told that it couldn't have happened. So I passed on the ball.

Actually, I saw the collection of game used baseballs that were used in the game in Minneapolis when Cal Ripken Jr. got his 3000th hit in April of 2000 and there actually was a couple of the old OAL balls in there....

joelsabi
02-22-2010, 09:01 PM
Actually, I saw the collection of game used baseballs that were used in the game in Minneapolis when Cal Ripken Jr. got his 3000th hit in April of 2000 and there actually was a couple of the old OAL balls in there....

Dave caught the old OAL Budig baseball in April of 2000 too. So at what months into the season, if any, would you start having doubts?


I was curious about the carryover on baseballs in 2000 when they switched to the unified ball. I was offered a National League ball that was being sold as a ball from 2000. I figured there might be some carryover but was told that it couldn't have happened. So I passed on the ball.

Who told you it was not possible and what was their reasoning in saying that? Do you know what month the baseball was used?

cigarman44
02-22-2010, 09:11 PM
Dave caught the old OAL Budig baseball in April of 2000 too. So at what months into the season, if any, would you start having doubts?



Who told you it was not possible and what was their reasoning in saying that? Do you know what month the baseball was used?

The ball in question was claimed to be from Sept of 2000. I asked Jeff Scott about it. I kinda had my doubts that late in the season as well. The guy said he got it from a photographer at ground level from that game. I wonder if it could had been a BP ball that was held over and he got it in batting practice.

sox83cubs84
02-22-2010, 10:17 PM
FTR, the Konerko HR I got from Comiskey Park (not Wrigley Field) with the Budig label was during the Saturday game of a mid-April White Sox-Tigers series.
Dave M.
Chicago area

joelsabi
02-22-2010, 10:24 PM
FTR, the Konerko HR I got from Comiskey Park (not Wrigley Field) with the Budig label was during the Saturday game of a mid-April White Sox-Tigers series.
Dave M.
Chicago area

Thanks Dave,

Hope you don't mind me mentioning it since it was the only example I knew of until the Ripken baseballs were mentioned in this thread.

My favorite crossover example for a jersey is the Maris 1960 Jersey.

xpress34
02-23-2010, 02:23 AM
My favorite crossover example for a jersey is the Maris 1960 Jersey.

Joel -

I was going to use that example!!! Especially in light of the statement earlier about someone not wanting a 2009 Post Season Yankees jersey if tagged as 2008 even though the carry-over is possible.

For those that don't know, the jersey Joel is referring to is THE Jersey Maris was wearing when he hit #61 in 1961. Due to the 'fingerprint' of pinstripe jerseys and the numerous photos from that game, many jerseys were compared and none photo matched and it was thought for a long time that the jersey was lost to history until a 1960 jersey in a private collection turned out to be the match to the photos. It wasn't uncommon then for teams to carry over a jersey from the previous season for a returning player just in case of emergencies... and on that day for whatever reason, maris was wearing his 1960 jersey.

That's one carry-over I'd like to own!!!

Now Joel - and I'm surprised no one else caught your typo - I'd like to see photo proof of this one:


... or Thurman Munson used a bicentennial bat in 1997.

18 years after his all too early exit from this mortal plane. (Just giving you grief Joel! And you as a Mod HAVE the EDIT feature! :D )

Anyway, I would like to add to this discussion (if I may) the fact that the same thing happens in the Auto side of the hobby - if a guy played his career on an AL team - do want his Auto on an NL ball? There are a TON of Ruth's out there on vintage NL balls.

As an example of why you have to do your research (besides the fact the guy may have done a coaching or managing stint in the opposite league) is this ball I just picked up and why I bought it even though it was on the 'wrong league's' ball:

(I will add pics of this piece as soon as I have time to take them, edit them (resizing), etc.)

This ball was a steal no matter how you slice it... on eBay, no other bids - won for $99.99 FREE shipping w/ JSA LOA for Clean Sweep Auctions Lot#887

It is listed as a 1933 New York Giants ball w/ decent Hubbell and possible faint Ott.

From the seller's input and research, he was able to pull a few more names:

Hal Schumacher
Hi Bell
Freddie Fitzsimmons
Jo-Jo Moore
Homer Peel
Lefty O'Doul
Glenn Spencer
Travis Jackson
Blondy Ryan

It appears to have Bill Terry on the Sweet Spot (which would make sense as he was Player/Mgr).

Here's where it gets interesting... it is signed on a Blue/Red Stitch Official AMERICAN League (William Harridge) Ball. The Giants were a NATIONAL League team.

I did my research and Harridge became AL Pres in 1931. ALL Balls (AL and NL) went to ALL Red Stitching in 1934.

In 1933 the Giants were World Series Champs defeating the Washington Senators.

It is possible (and would not be a huge stretch since 'store model' balls from this time period [Great Depression] are scarce) that this is a GU ball from one of the 1933 WS Games played at Griffith Stadium.

The ball itself - regardless of sigs and heritage - is worth around $600 to $700 + just due to scarcity of early AL and NL multi color stitched balls and that alone is what I based my bid on. The autos and or it's potential provenance are icing on the cake.


All the best -

Chris

joelsabi
02-23-2010, 02:50 AM
Joel -

I was going to use that example!!! Especially in light of the statement earlier about someone not wanting a 2009 Post Season Yankees jersey if tagged as 2008 even though the carry-over is possible.



Now Joel - and I'm surprised no one else caught your typo - I'd like to see photo proof of this one:

18 years after his all too early exit from this mortal plane. (Just giving you grief Joel! And you as a Mod HAVE the EDIT feature! :D )

Anyway, I would like to add to this discussion (if I may) the fact that the same thing happens in the Auto side of the hobby - if a guy played his career on an AL team - do want his Auto on an NL ball? There are a TON of Ruth's out there on vintage NL balls.

As an example of why you have to do your research (besides the fact the guy may have done a coaching or managing stint in the opposite league) is this ball I just picked up and why I bought it even though it was on the 'wrong league's' ball:

(I will add pics of this piece as soon as I have time to take them, edit them (resizing), etc.)

This ball was a steal no matter how you slice it... on eBay, no other bids - won for $99.99 FREE shipping w/ JSA LOA for Clean Sweep Auctions Lot#887

It is listed as a 1933 New York Giants ball w/ decent Hubbell and possible faint Ott.

From the seller's input and research, he was able to pull a few more names:

Hal Schumacher
Hi Bell
Freddie Fitzsimmons
Jo-Jo Moore
Homer Peel
Lefty O'Doul
Glenn Spencer
Travis Jackson
Blondy Ryan

It appears to have Bill Terry on the Sweet Spot (which would make sense as he was Player/Mgr).

Here's where it gets interesting... it is signed on a Blue/Red Stitch Official AMERICAN League (William Harridge) Ball. The Giants were a NATIONAL League team.

I did my research and Harridge became AL Pres in 1931. ALL Balls (AL and NL) went to ALL Red Stitching in 1934.

In 1933 the Giants were World Series Champs defeating the Washington Senators.

It is possible (and would not be a huge stretch since 'store model' balls from this time period [Great Depression] are scarce) that this is a GU ball from one of the 1933 WS Games played at Griffith Stadium.

The ball itself - regardless of sigs and heritage - is worth around $600 to $700 + just due to scarcity of early AL and NL multi color stitched balls and that alone is what I based my bid on. The autos and or it's potential provenance are icing on the cake.


All the best -

Chris

Chris,

You mean independence wasn't in 1796? ;)

I thought about posing the Maris Jersey as a scenario to Justin but I don't know him too well yet. Besides you tell the story better than I would have.

Thanks for the additional example too. One of the things that strikes me about carryovers is that I see them as a possible steal as many collector will shy away from such item if they are not open to the possibility of crossovers, resulting in less bids at auction.

xpress34
02-23-2010, 03:01 AM
Chris,

You mean independence wasn't in 1796? ;)

I thought about posing the Maris Jersey as a scenario to Justin but I don't know him too well yet. Besides you tell the story better than I would have.

Thanks for the additional example too. One of the things that strikes me about carryovers is that I see them as a possible steal as many collector will shy away from such item if they are not open to the possibility of crossovers, resulting in less bids at auction.

1796? You mean I missed the 're-do' of our Bi-Centennial 14 years ago??? :p

I agree with you about the 'steals to be had' if you'll just keep an open mind - and do your research. It may not be the 'exact' item you had in your mind's eye, but that doesn't make it any less real or valuable or historical... an item is what an item is.

As far as the additional example, it's what keeps me in the hobby - finding those steals and doing my homework... if you don't know the story, ask me about my $25 (DLVD) Clark Griffith single signed ball sometime - an eBay steal - for a HOFer whose single signed balls range around $2,000 - $3,200.

Oh... and thanks for the kind words on my 'condensed' version of the Maris jersey!

All the best -

Chris

joelsabi
02-23-2010, 03:28 AM
Joel -



Now Joel - and I'm surprised no one else caught your typo - I'd like to see photo proof of this one:




Chris

Chris, here is the photo. I need to ask about that other baseball sometime.
So its a 1976 bat used in 1977, when Munson and Jackson first became teammates.

xpress34
02-23-2010, 03:41 AM
Chris, here is the photo. I need to ask about that other baseball sometime.
So its a 1976 bat used in 1977, when Munson and Jackson first became teammates.

Great pics!

And a collector would throw that bat 'out of bed' why??? Because it's a 'carry over'?:confused:

Just like the story in this previous GUU thread:

http://www.gameuseduniverse.com/vb_forum/showthread.php?t=26088

About Josh Hamilton using a 40 YEAR OLD LVS of Joe Macko's.

Not ONLY a different player's bat, not only a 'carry over' from a previous season... it's a Carry Over from 4 decades earlier!!!

I'd LOVE to have it in my collection!!!

- Chris

xpress34
02-23-2010, 03:45 AM
HAHAHAHA... Joel.... you're killing me!

It just hit me why you put the photo up... I was being sarcastic about seeing photo proof of him using it in 1997!!!

I need to get off of here and go to bed... it's a work day tomorrow... drop me an eMail and I'll tell you all about my Griffith ball...

All the best -

Chris
xpress34@comcast .net

tigerdale
02-23-2010, 07:21 AM
these two baseballs were bought at comerica park last april...both authenticated as used in the april 15th game....both minor league balls...different minor leagues at that!!

metsbats
02-23-2010, 07:43 AM
Two bats I have which Gary Carter used to obtain milestones in 1986 (his 250th home run and 900th RBI) are from the 1985 season.

joelsabi
02-23-2010, 11:47 AM
HAHAHAHA... Joel.... you're killing me!

It just hit me why you put the photo up... I was being sarcastic about seeing photo proof of him using it in 1997!!!

I need to get off of here and go to bed... it's a work day tomorrow... drop me an eMail and I'll tell you all about my Griffith ball...

All the best -

Chris
xpress34@comcast .net

Chris,

I thought I would come clean before I get labeled as a revisionist historian as I misspoke on Dave's location of his HR catch too. hahaha.

I got the photo from another thread on here while doing a search. There are more posts about jersey carryovers when I searched for examples. I appreciate others who contributed other examples from their own collection in this thread.

I will send you an email on the baseball story.

joelsabi
02-23-2010, 12:05 PM
these two baseballs were bought at comerica park last april...both authenticated as used in the april 15th game....both minor league balls...different minor leagues at that!!

just curious what is on the mlb database. can you share the hologram number?

ballhawknet
02-23-2010, 12:20 PM
these two baseballs were bought at comerica park last april...both authenticated as used in the april 15th game....both minor league balls...different minor leagues at that!!

If you dont mind , what are the authentication #'s on these two balls.
Do you think they were actually used in the game or just tagged incorrectly ? Having caught dozens of these in bp from the Tigers over the past 3+ years , I would think that an authenticator either was lazy
and didnt look at the balls they were authenicating or just didnt know any better. Im curious what kind of trainning these authenticators go through , and what exactly happens to the bag of game balls after the game . Do they get locked up out of reach of anyone or are they just sitting in a corner somewhere until they get tagged . Im guessing that someone probably picked up a few balls laying around and tossed them into the bag of game balls. And as above , the authenicator didnt look all to closely at what he/she was doing .:mad:

Considering how different the seams are on the minor league baseballs I would think the umpire would surely notice when/if he grabbed one out of
his bag. And the pitcher would probably have a smile as wide as the Grand Canyon given the opportunity to throw one of these again:D


And yes in April of 2000 a few gamers game out of Wrigley as National League . And in 2005 , after the all star game , two game home runs that landed on the streets were 2005 Comerica Park all star baseballs :eek:

suave1477
02-23-2010, 12:36 PM
Carryovers are more common than you may think. Especially if it is Yankees related.

I own a number of carry over items / recycled items from the Yankees.

I actually have now which I am selling a Yankees pair of game used pants from 1978 that was probably used then (But can also be dated to being used by a specific player from 1980)
So here is a pair of pants, Used by one player and then most likely not used again till 3 seasons later.

I have in my own collection Darryl Strawberry Rookie Game Used Road pants but it was issued to another player. Since he was a mid season call up he didnt have his own pants and they gave him someone elses.

Now to answer your question would I prefer items to be originaly intended for (Player A) to be used by (Player A) - of course, but some times that item may not exist.

Sometimes you can luck out with a carry over item and you pick up some no name player Jersey later to find out the year before it was worn by a superstar.

I think batting helmets are famous for this many times you will find manufaturer dates on the batting helmets and then not actually used till years later.

I think the Maris Jersey has to be one of the most coveted carryovers if you think about it.
1960 Jersey used also in 61
1960 Maris MVP
1961 Breaks Home Run Record
1961 World Series Champs

So many significances to that Jersey WOW

sox83cubs84
02-23-2010, 04:07 PM
On Russell gamer MLB jerseys, I have seen the 1992 design Russell tag pop up on jerseys issued for 1997 and even 1998. It's not common, by any means, but it does happen.

Dave M.
Chicago area

jbsportstuff
02-23-2010, 04:17 PM
Speaking of carryover - Just recently I held a 1976 George Foster Centennial bat that was purchased from the Reds 580 gift shop and it had the date of use as being 1978. TWO years later. :)

Could it be a batch that George just liked? I don't know the reason why he would use a bat that is two years old..but he did.

harpt
02-23-2010, 04:43 PM
Speaking of carryover - Just recently I held a 1976 George Foster Centennial bat that was purchased from the Reds 580 gift shop and it had the date of use as being 1978. TWO years later. :)

Could it be a batch that George just liked? I don't know the reason why he would use a bat that is two years old..but he did.

Also possible that the gift shop made an error when labeling the date of use.

tigerdale
02-24-2010, 07:09 AM
The hologram numbers on the baseballs are LH299471 & LH299474....I believe it was jackie Robinson day too if they did anything special w/ the balls that day....
Hologram number LH299474 was located in the MLB Authentication Database under GAME-USED BASEBALL.
Session Product Description:
Session Name: CWS AT DET
Session Date: April 15, 2009
Autographer:
Authenticator: AUTHENTICATORS, INC.
Additional Information: CHICAGO @ DETROIT

joelsabi
02-24-2010, 12:23 PM
The hologram numbers on the baseballs are LH299471 & LH299474....I believe it was jackie Robinson day too if they did anything special w/ the balls that day....
Hologram number LH299474 was located in the MLB Authentication Database under GAME-USED BASEBALL.
Session Product Description:
Session Name: CWS AT DET
Session Date: April 15, 2009
Autographer:
Authenticator: AUTHENTICATORS, INC.
Additional Information: CHICAGO @ DETROIT

Thanks Dale for pulling out the baseball to get the hologram numbers. No mention of PCL or International League or being a BP baseball in the MLB database for those baseballs. I don't think Jackie Robinson's Day would be a reason to use minor league balls during a game either. Robinson's only minor league team coincidently was the Montreal Royals, a International league team so why the PCL ball if this was the case.



Do you think they were actually used in the game or just tagged incorrectly ? Having caught dozens of these in bp from the Tigers over the past 3+ years , I would think that an authenticator either was lazy
and didnt look at the balls they were authenicating or just didnt know any better. Im curious what kind of trainning these authenticators go through , and what exactly happens to the bag of game balls after the game . Do they get locked up out of reach of anyone or are they just sitting in a corner somewhere until they get tagged . Im guessing that someone probably picked up a few balls laying around and tossed them into the bag of game balls. And as above , the authenicator didnt look all to closely at what he/she was doing .:mad:

Considering how different the seams are on the minor league baseballs I would think the umpire would surely notice when/if he grabbed one out of
his bag. And the pitcher would probably have a smile as wide as the Grand Canyon given the opportunity to throw one of these again:D


And yes in April of 2000 a few gamers game out of Wrigley as National League . And in 2005 , after the all star game , two game home runs that landed on the streets were 2005 Comerica Park all star baseballs :eek:

This is only my opinion as I have no first hand knowledge of the logistics of storing bp and game used ball at Comerica. Where did the PCL baseball come from? The Detroit equipment manager would never order PCL baseballs since none of the Detroit's affiliates play in the PCL. Taking into consideration Ballhawk’s experience, the intermingling of warm-up baseballs from visiting teams with a PCL affiliate seem like the best explanation. One of the two teams must have picked up a stray baseball somewhere along the way when playing a team with a PCL affiliate and kept it in their practice ball bags. Chicago’s AAA affiliate wasn’t a PCL team either, so this PCL baseball probably was a BP ball left from an earlier series or a stray collected by Detroit personnel in warm-up. Teams could care less what baseball they use for bp. I agree, training of authenticators to be more thorough is in order

metsbats
02-24-2010, 12:51 PM
Back in the early 90's there was a Gone Bats article in SCD which reported that the HOF had the bat which Willie McCovey purportedly hit his last home run on display. Problem was the bat was an early 70's HB old label bat and McCovey's last season was 1980. Vince Malta was the one who pointed this out to the author Mike Montbriand.

Speculation was that it may have been an error or perhaps Stretch did pull out an old bat for his final season.

sox83cubs84
02-25-2010, 05:30 PM
Just saw a Padres 1997 home Tony Gwynn in Legendary Auctions' current event that has an Alicia Gwynn LOA. It has a 1992-style Russell tag.

Dave M.
Chicago area