Raines Gamer On Ebay

[dirtyla2000]

Does this one look shady!Description doesnt make feel better either! What do you guys think?

[Birdbats]

Does this one look shady!Description doesnt make feel better either! What do you guys think?

Are you referring to the jersey I listed last night?

http://cgi.ebay.com/1989-Tim-Raines-game-used-Expos-road-jersey-Ozzie-Smith_W0QQitemZ190382768056QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_D efaultDomain_0?hash=item2c53b27fb8

What questions do you have? What do you find "shady"? Why does a completely forthcoming and honest description not make you feel better? Let me know and I'll be happy to address your concerns. You may also want to refer to this thread for more information:

http://www.gameuseduniverse.com/vb_forum/showthread.php?t=30540&highlight=raines+jersey

[sox83cubs84]

I think Jeff's Raines jersey is just what it OUGHT to be.

Dave M.
Chicago area

[karamaxjoe]

Description doesnt make feel better either!

I'm curious what you don't like about the description. Are you referrring to a different Raines jersey? You wont see a better description of a jersey on ebay and that jersey has been discussed here before.

[dirtyla2000]

Never said description is deceiving, just that the jersey is off! I have over 100 expos gamers inc 4 from 89,the tagging doesnt compare to any! If anything it is too honest,sucks to say!

[nickacs]

Never said description is deceiving, just that the jersey is off! I have over 100 expos gamers inc 4 from 89,the tagging doesnt compare to any! If anything it is too honest,sucks to say!

LOL, are you serious? :rolleyes:

I'm not a big baseball jersey collector, but I must say that after reading the Ebay description, it is one of the best I've seen. And the fact it's owned by one of the most respected baseball collectors here and doesn't sell fakes, I can't see how being "too honest" makes this a bad sell?

As the saying goes, if you don't want to bid on it, then don't have to. Don't put the seller down for just being an honest guy selling something.

[karamaxjoe]

Never said description is deceiving, just that the jersey is off!

Could you be a little more helpful with some examples of your 100 Expos gamers to back up your statement? I believe that's the intent of this site.

[sportscentury]

Most of us just ignore dirtyla2000. He is here to start trouble, not make a meaningful contribution. I would suggest doing a search of his past threads and posts for endless proof.

[amerks25]

I believe the shirt to be "good". I purchased a Tim Wallach jersey at the same auction, with tagging in the collar and similar wear.
No deception in my opinion.

[dirtyla2000]

Most of us just ignore dirtyla2000. He is here to start trouble, not make a meaningful contribution. I would suggest doing a search of his past threads and posts for endless proof.
Start trouble? Im the only expo collector in this forum,and I stated my opinion based on what I have and seen! Again,never mentioned deception,I have no doubt sellers intentions are good! As for you ,how many expos gamers do you own,thought so!

[emann]

Start trouble? Im the only expo collector in this forum,and I stated my opinion based on what I have and seen! Again,never mentioned deception,I have no doubt sellers intentions are good! As for you ,how many expos gamers do you own,thought so!

you aren't the only Expos collector on here, although I stick mostly to bats.

I'd be very interested to see pics of the tagging from other 1989 Expos jerseys posted here for reference. I went back & forth on the same issue with this jersey earlier also and the existence of the Tim Wallach doesn't resolve it for me since they're from the same source... Add to the fact, Jeff himself discovered one of the other jerseys sold from Ozzie's restaurant to be a display jersey (Herzog's 1985 WS jersey) that was labeled and sold as a gamer.

While I think the jersey is probably legit, I do think the tagging discrepancy is going to haunt this one for awhile. It'd be nice to see other Expos/Raines examples from that time period to compare though...

[Danny899]

[quote=dirtyla2000;194201]Start trouble? Im the only expo collector in this forum quote]


Is that a fact? I have quite a few Expo pieces myself. While I don't make a claim to own 100 of them, certainly this doesn't regard you as the only Expo collector here. Perhaps you could share some photos of your grand collection of jerseys, especially the 1989 ones. I and other members here could only benefit from your insight as to why you feel this jersey is shady. Regarding the description, I could only hope that more sellers go this much into detail in listing their pieces.
Dan

[cjw]

Start trouble? Im the only expo collector in this forum,and I stated my opinion based on what I have and seen! Again,never mentioned deception,I have no doubt sellers intentions are good! As for you ,how many expos gamers do you own,thought so!

This guy may have something to say about that. Check out post 66 in this thread.

http://www.gameuseduniverse.com/vb_forum/showthread.php?t=16638&page=7&highlight=expos

[platinum1]

This guy may have something to say about that. Check out post 66 in this thread.

http://www.gameuseduniverse.com/vb_forum/showthread.php?t=16638&page=7&highlight=expos
That collection is AMAZING!!!!! :eek:

[dirtyla2000]

This guy may have something to say about that. Check out post 66 in this thread.

http://www.gameuseduniverse.com/vb_forum/showthread.php?t=16638&page=7&highlight=expos
thats my basement,and my wife sleeping on the couch! that was a longtime,I created an other name because I forgot which password i was using! I will post the 89 tags tonite!

[skipcarayislegend]

Is that a '79 Larry Parrish gamer behind the Staub shirt? Good to see it's in the right home. :)

[dirtyla2000]

Could you be a little more helpful with some examples of your 100 Expos gamers to back up your statement? I believe that's the intent of this site.
Here is my man cave again with some updates! Check the label on the Randy Johnson,that is what I have seen on all 89 expos jerseys! For anyone who may care the ANDRE DAWSON gold glove is from 80 amd the SILVER SLUGGER is from 83! Some jerseys are 1970 Rusty Staub,1970 Don Drysdale from his pitching coach days with the expos! In front of Staub is Ron Brand (1970) Bob Bailey and John Boccabella(1972) In front of Drysdale Dan Mcginn(1969) Bob Baylor(1969) The Maury Wills bat is the first ever bat used in an Expos game,first ever at bat.Was purchased directly from Harvey Stone,original equipment mgr! Any other questions lmk!

[dirtyla2000]

sorry,forgot the Jounson tag from 89.Also here is a cool minor league jersey from Ellis Valentine whe he play for the CARNIVALES DU QUEBEC!

[dirtyla2000]

sorry computer stupid,here is the Johnson tag!

[dirtyla2000]

here are the jerseys mentioned before.I will never attempt this again,I promise!

[karamaxjoe]

Okay, now we're talkin!

You have a great Expo jersey collection that probably belongs in the team museum, if they still existed.

Now that I see a comparison Rawlings tag in the collar, I'd like to know why the Raines jersey has the Red Rawlings tag that was discontinued after 1987. I'm not an Expo collector and I could be way off on this, but the red tag concerns me. Anyone care to contribute?

[Birdbats]

Hello, all. I've been out of town a couple days and haven't had a chance to chime in. Regarding the tags, they are unusual, as was discussed in this thread: http://www.gameuseduniverse.com/vb_forum/showthread.php?t=30540&highlight=raines+jersey

However, if you've collected long enough, you know there are no absolutes when it comes to tagging. I specialize in Cardinals, so I know that after Majestic took over in 2003, the use of year flags on St. Louis shirts has been very spotty. Back in 1992, Rawlings used two methods to tag Cardinals jerseys (photo below) -- both are perfectly legit. I've seen legit game-used Cards Rawlings jerseys, circa '87, with neck tagging that says "Adult Large" in addition to the regular tail tagging.

http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w232/birdbats/1992tagging.jpg

Anomalies exist, and knowing that they do, you look for other clues. In the case of this Raines jersey, those other clues are the significant use it shows, the team repairs, the player customizations it exhibits and the provenance. My friend, Bill Hefele, talked to Ozzie on my behalf and asked if he remembered the Raines and Wallach jerseys. Ozzie said that he did, and that he received them from the players. From that point, the Raines jersey was framed and displayed 19 years until it was auctioned, I bought it and removed it from the frame.

As for the Herzog, it has no bearing on the Raines. Ozzie had several autographed replicas in his restaurant from football and hockey players. The Herzog, I assume, was made just for display at Ozzie's -- after all, this is St. Louis. But, the non-Cardinals baseball jerseys all looked used and legit. They included a 1990 Ryne Sandberg (http://sports.ha.com/common/view_item.php?Sale_No=717&Lot_No=82190), 1992 Tour of Japan jerseys of Griffey Jr. and Cecil Fielder (they've been offered on eBay by Zane Burns), the Tim Wallach and a few others. Just because Ozzie's displayed some autographed replicas doesn't mean every jersey on display there should be considered questionable. There were plenty of good gamers, including Ozzie's own jerseys (which he unfortunately kept).

In the end, if you're not comfortable with the tagging or the fact that the restaurant displayed some signed replicas along with real gamers, then don't bid. I don't blame you -- I don't bid if I'm not comfortable. But, as someone who's been in this hobby a while, I can say I'm completely confident with the legitimacy of this jersey. I wish all my jerseys exhibited this amount of use, customizations, team repairs and provenance.

[Birdbats]

A couple more things. In terms of anomalies, I forgot to mention the 1997 Cardinals Labor Day jerseys that had numbers on the front (which the team didn't have in '97) and the French version of the Jackie Robinson patch. Those are the best examples I know that illustrate how the people who make the jerseys sometimes use whatever is available. And regarding the red label, I'd be more concerned if the jersey had a tag that was used AFTER 1989.

http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w232/birdbats/DCP07253.jpg
http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w232/birdbats/DCP07257.jpg

[karamaxjoe]

Great arguments on both sides. This forum needs more of this type of chatter. Now I know why I should just stick to stuff I know like White Sox jerseys. After 1987, the Sox stopped using the red Rawlings tag and I made an assumption that was the case for other teams. Variations do exist and Jeff gave us some good examples.

[sportscentury]

There are many important factors when considering buying a jersey. Among them is knowledge about the source. All hobby veterans are familiar with inconsistencies and anomolies in jerseys tagging (as well as other areas of collecting). Jeff/Birdbats is among the most respected collectors in the hobby. His responses in this thread are indicative of his professionalism. I've never seen him offer an item for which he hadn't done serious research and offered valuable insight. Whereas I might shy away from a tagging inconsistency/anomoly in many cases, here I would feel quite comfortable. I want to make clear that I have no financial interest in this jersey or Jeff's sales in general. Just my two cents, nothing more.

[sox83cubs84]

Okay, now we're talkin!

You have a great Expo jersey collection that probably belongs in the team museum, if they still existed.

Now that I see a comparison Rawlings tag in the collar, I'd like to know why the Raines jersey has the Red Rawlings tag that was discontinued after 1987. I'm not an Expo collector and I could be way off on this, but the red tag concerns me. Anyone care to contribute?

We agree that tagging anomalies can and do exist, and this appears to be a legitimate example of just that. While 1987 was the last year of mainstream use of the red tag, the occasional 1988 and even '89 gamer will surface with one.

FWIW...While Rawlings used the second version of the white tag predominantly in 1990-91, most of their 1990-91 TBTC uniforms ('90 White Sox, 1991 Phillies and Reds) carried a wider version of the red tag.

Dave M.
Chicago area

[dirtyla2000]

There are many important factors when considering buying a jersey. Among them is knowledge about the source. All hobby veterans are familiar with inconsistencies and anomolies in jerseys tagging (as well as other areas of collecting). Jeff/Birdbats is among the most respected collectors in the hobby. His responses in this thread are indicative of his professionalism. I've never seen him offer an item for which he hadn't done serious research and offered valuable insight. Whereas I might shy away from a tagging inconsistency/anomoly in many cases, here I would feel quite comfortable. I want to make clear that I have no financial interest in this jersey or Jeff's sales in general. Just my two cents, nothing more.
When there are no examples of 89 expos jerseys with red tags except for a Wallach sold in the same resto its a tough sell! In all my expos jerseys there are no tagging inconsistencies,I dont know about other teams though! I do know mine however! NOW THATS HARD TO IGNORE!

[Birdbats]

When there are no examples of 89 expos jerseys with red tags except for a Wallach sold in the same resto its a tough sell! In all my expos jerseys there are no tagging inconsistencies,I dont know about other teams though! I do know mine however! NOW THATS HARD TO IGNORE!

So, what would be your explanation for these jerseys? That somebody faked them using the wrong tags, customized them, made realistic looking repairs and wore them for a while so they'd look legit? Or that Raines and Wallach carried around improperly tagged jerseys to give away to players on other teams who needed restaurant decor? I think I've presented a pretty solid case for these being legit, game-worn jerseys. Let's hear your case. If this Raines isn't a well-worn, legit jersey that simply has unusual tagging, then what do you think it is? Seriously, I'd like to hear your most logical explanation. You seem to know what they aren't. Tell us what they are.

[dirtyla2000]

So, what would be your explanation for these jerseys? That somebody faked them using the wrong tags, customized them, made realistic looking repairs and wore them for a while so they'd look legit? Or that Raines and Wallach carried around improperly tagged jerseys to give away to players on other teams who needed restaurant decor? I think I've presented a pretty solid case for these being legit, game-worn jerseys. Let's hear your case. If this Raines isn't a well-worn, legit jersey that simply has unusual tagging, then what do you think it is? Seriously, I'd like to hear your most logical explanation. You seem to know what they aren't. Tell us what they are.
Salesman sample,issued jerseys or maybe even game used! I respect your description but I just dont believe in the jersey! My bad for using the word shady to begin this mess! I only collect expos jerseys and thats all I know!

[sportscentury]

Salesman sample,issued jerseys or maybe even game used! I respect your description but I just dont believe in the jersey! My bad for using the word shady to begin this mess! I only collect expos jerseys and thats all I know!

Unbelievable.

[emann]

Okay, now we're talkin!

You have a great Expo jersey collection that probably belongs in the team museum, if they still existed.


dirtyla2000: what an AWESOME collection of jerseys! Seriously, one of the more jaw-dropping things I've seen on this site (runs up there with Gameused's Sox bat collection) for sheer devotion... and thanks for adding pics of the tagging for reference also.

[dirtyla2000]

dirtyla2000: what an AWESOME collection of jerseys! Seriously, one of the more jaw-dropping things I've seen on this site (runs up there with Gameused's Sox bat collection) for sheer devotion... and thanks for adding pics of the tagging for reference also.
thankyou!

[Kid4hof03]

Great Expos collection. The Dawson gold glove and silver slugger are simply fantastic. I would love to see your Carter items if you don't mind taking more pictures!

Thanks,
Abe

[dirtyla2000]

here we go:the jersey and pants are from 82,the mask and chest protector are from 92,the shinguards are actually from the mets,the cap is from the 80 s and the bat is from 77 and its team signed!the cleats are from the 82 allstar game! nice signed equipment bag.
Abe[/quote]

[Kid4hof03]

Awesome stuff! Thanks so much for sharing the pictures, I really appreciate it. My Expos stuff of his only amounts to a 1982 home jersey, 80's cold weather undershirt, 80's hat, 73-75 bat, 77-79 bat, and a 1981 all star game trophy bat.

Would love to pick your brain about Carter stuff if you ever have time, kulynychfamily@verizon.net.

Abe