HELP; Anyone dispute an auction house over item cannot photomatch?

[nickacs]

(NOTE: Lengthy post, but you all will read it!)

Hi everyone-
Well, looks like I've gotten myself into a costly predicament. I bid on a jersey in an auction house about 3 weeks ago on a Yankee home pinstripe jersey thinking I wasn't going to win, but the sole bid the night the auction closed, yup, was me.

The jersey came with only a Steiner letter and letter-to-jersey matching Steiner hologram#, plus a Lou Lampson letter (LOL). NO MLB hologram#. (First strike I should've noticed)

So, I thought I got a good deal when comparing this player's game-worn jerseys to other auction/Ebay prices. After the auction closed, I used my "amateur" photomatching skills to find a photomatch since the jersey is from 2007 and has the Phil Rizzuto/#10/armband so the timeframe of the regular season jersey is narrowed to only being worn 8/14/07 to 9/24/07.
The problem arose when I couldn't photomatch it because every game I found the pinstripes didn't match, so I asked a fellow GUU member's expertise and he found no match also. (Second strike)

Lastly, when I inspected the jersey upon arrival, I noticed the inside/bottom tagging has some "interesting" threading. Personally, this is only my 2nd baseball jersey and between comparing to my other and all the other baseball jersey pics I've seen on here, this doesn't seem normal:


https://docs.google.com/File?id=dhcs5s4z_108gks3g9db_b


In emailing to the auction house this morning that based on the non-photomatch, what can we do here basically. I have spent thousands on a jersey that I am unhappy about and feeling it is not legit. Steiner letter or no letter, if you can't photomatch the jersey in the specific known worn timeframe, it means squat. And we all know Steiner hologram's are worthless to verify (see my other thread).

The auction house replied that because of the Steiner and Lampson letters that ALL SALES ARE FINAL. "If I felt uncomfortable about the item, I shouldn't have bid". Yes, while true, I have still been mislead on a $5k+ auction purchase.

Has this happened to anyone else? Can I "pursue" any action based on a non-photomatch even though the jersey comes with two LOA's that they are holding to and not caring it can't be photomatched?

Thanks for listening!

[nickacs]

EDIT: Oops, I meant to say 'I HOPE you all will read it!!' Sorry :)

[sportscentury]

Nick - I'm sorry to hear this. Your problem is that not being able to photomatch the jersey is not dispositive. That is, it does not mean that the jersey was not game worn. Plenty of jerseys that are not or cannot be photomatched are good. I think it is unlikely that you will win with this argument as a condition of the sale (I presume) was not that the jersey is photomatched or photomatchable.

Now, if you can show that there is a problem with the Steiner hologram/authenticity or that the jersey has been altered in some way (e.g., the stitching you presented), then you have a better case because demonstrating either of these factors would mean that a term of the sale/agreement has been violated.

Alternatively, if you paid by credit card, you can contact your CC and see if it will back you up if you send it back to the auction house. I do not necessarily advocate this approach, of course, unless you have a legitimate reason for returning the jersey (such as a non-disclosed alteration).

Lastly, if you provide full photos, I'm sure that GUU members would be happy to help you photomatch it (if it is photomatchable, that is). Some GUU members have some pretty impressive electronic libraries of Yankees photos.

Good luck and let us know how it turns out.

[nickacs]

Thanks Reid, appreciate the comments.

Even though I'd consider myself an "amateur" photomatch'er, with the Yankee pinstripe it's pretty easy to try it and I found at least one front and/or back pic on all the photo sites that discredit's it's photomatch. But even so, I enlisted the help of a fellow GUU member that I won't name, unless he wants to post, that is fine with me. But I'll say he's one of the most respected here and dubbed the 'photomatch king'. So, most of you will know who that is :)

Yea, I did pay the amount via credit card, and like you said, I really don't want to go through the hassle as how can I prove to a VISA that a baseball jersey doesn't photomatch, so I'm not going to pay XXX dollars. I don't think it would hold personally, but I've never done it, so who knows! haha..

Lastly, I will say too that this is now the 3rd, yes third, different auction jersey in now 1 year span that has shown to be fakes. The first two last year where '92 Olympic Dream Team jerseys that style-matched 100%, but the inside +length tag was fake and another GUU member email me the proof when compared to a real '92 Dream Team game worn jersey. I emailed the same auction house and they refunded my money, which was great of them and respected that very much.

But now the 3rd time around, they don't seem to want to budge. Heck, the fellow GUU member that tried to photomatch every 21 games that year even told me he would take screen shots of every one if I needed to disprove them. I trust him 100% that the jersey is not possible to photomatch in the timeperiod it could've been worn.

Yes, I did bid, but you know what, I did bid with confidence that auction night that this was a legitimate, game-worn jersey. So, while I found problems with it, I can't see how someone can get away with selling it still. My assumption is that the auction house does authenticate in any way, they let the other 3rd party company LOA's or Mr. Lampson do the talking and they just auction the stuff off.

Uhhhhh.. sorry guys.. I'm just stuck on what to do. I can't sit on this with over $5k+ in money down the tube. It's just way too much.

[suave1477]

Nickacs I agree with everything SportsCentury said. As he also mentioned I would strongly urge YOU to post pics of the Jersey. I think it would help us all understand.

If the photomatch expert here can pin down every game ever played while wearing such a possible Jersey and cannot match it, that is one thing. But also as Sportscentury had said if you cannot pintpoint every game there is a possibility this could of been a Jersey for whatever reason only wonr for maybe one game or one inning. Who knows? But does not means it is a fake.
My next question to you is this does the Jersey show any use?

[sportscentury]

Thanks Reid, appreciate the comments.

Even though I'd consider myself an "amateur" photomatch'er, with the Yankee pinstripe it's pretty easy to try it and I found at least one front and/or back pic on all the photo sites that discredit's it's photomatch. But even so, I enlisted the help of a fellow GUU member that I won't name, unless he wants to post, that is fine with me. But I'll say he's one of the most respected here and dubbed the 'photomatch king'. So, most of you will know who that is :)

Yea, I did pay the amount via credit card, and like you said, I really don't want to go through the hassle as how can I prove to a VISA that a baseball jersey doesn't photomatch, so I'm not going to pay XXX dollars. I don't think it would hold personally, but I've never done it, so who knows! haha..

Lastly, I will say too that this is now the 3rd, yes third, different auction jersey in now 1 year span that has shown to be fakes. The first two last year where '92 Olympic Dream Team jerseys that style-matched 100%, but the inside +length tag was fake and another GUU member email me the proof when compared to a real '92 Dream Team game worn jersey. I emailed the same auction house and they refunded my money, which was great of them and respected that very much.

But now the 3rd time around, they don't seem to want to budge. Heck, the fellow GUU member that tried to photomatch every 21 games that year even told me he would take screen shots of every one if I needed to disprove them. I trust him 100% that the jersey is not possible to photomatch in the timeperiod it could've been worn.

Yes, I did bid, but you know what, I did bid with confidence that auction night that this was a legitimate, game-worn jersey. So, while I found problems with it, I can't see how someone can get away with selling it still. My assumption is that the auction house does authenticate in any way, they let the other 3rd party company LOA's or Mr. Lampson do the talking and they just auction the stuff off.

Uhhhhh.. sorry guys.. I'm just stuck on what to do. I can't sit on this with over $5k+ in money down the tube. It's just way too much.

Nick - I'm not sure I made my point clearly. You are focusing on the photomatch issue, but the fact that another GUUer and you could not photomatch the jersey does not by itself mean that the jersey is bad. Perhaps the player wore the jersey for only an inning or two before switching jerseys and it just so happens that there are no photos of the player during the short period in which he wore the jersey. Do I think this is likely? No, of course not. But because it is possible, it means that your photomatch argument is not dispositive and the auction house has an "out." I really think you have a stronger argument if you can show a problem with the Steiner authentication, evidence of an alteration that was not disclosed, or evidence of tampering/doctoring of some kind.

[nickacs]

Thanks Suave/Reid-
Gotcha, sorry about that guys. I'll post up the pics below and let you guys/anyone search around if you like. More the merrier! haha..
I forgot to mention that I talked with a very nice Steiner employee that has listened and help out a lot, but unfortunately because their website Hologram# lookup was discontinued years ago, he can't verify the Steiner hologram. He said he could, if I got the auction consignor's info, to cross check their records with anyone purchasing from them this particular jersey. I asked the auction house if this was possible and they said no, which I knew and understand they can't disclose that info. Thought at least ask!

Reid, to be honest, I don't really see much game use, but that's just because I don't see any dirt stains, collar stains, much else. The jersey numbers do have some puckering to them, but that's about it.

Thanks again guys.. Here's the pics.. Steiner letter/hologram, front/rear jersey shots, front tagging and the inside tag stitching with "interesting" bottom stitch job:


https://docs.google.com/File?id=dhcs5s4z_110ct62zjgh_b


https://docs.google.com/File?id=dhcs5s4z_111d8hqzzcx_b

https://docs.google.com/File?id=dhcs5s4z_112f4pg39db_b

https://docs.google.com/File?id=dhcs5s4z_1133nwvrcgz_b

https://docs.google.com/File?id=dhcs5s4z_114fdq2nnd6_b

https://docs.google.com/File?id=dhcs5s4z_115drkrvwdg_b

https://docs.google.com/File?id=dhcs5s4z_116d3pj2cd8_b

https://docs.google.com/File?id=dhcs5s4z_117dffvxhdn_b

https://docs.google.com/File?id=dhcs5s4z_118f7k9x9sj_b

[nickacs]

FYI, here are the dates Jeter could've worn the jersey because of the Rizzuto/#10/armband:

August:
14th
15th
16th
17th
18th
28th
29th
30th
31st

September:
1st
2nd
3rd
4th
5th
17th
18th
19th
21st
22nd
23rd
24th

[jetersbatboy]

I think a mistake is being made on how we are looking at the jersey. Has anyone thought the jersey could be a legit gamer that had the 10 add but never made it into a game, it is done with WS jersey. Reg season, playoff jersey with that patch add but not used. This could be a consideration. My advice would be to look further back into the season, as the jersey seems to show game use.

[capitalssticks]

And he could also wear multiple jerseys in a game, as is he case with alot of bigger name players. not saying thats what happened here, but just because you couldnt photomatch it doesnt mean its not real

[Rob L]

Based on pictures, there is definite evidence of wash wear with the puckering and fraying. The idea that the jersey was used earlier and then the number 10 added and not used after that is entirely plausible.

[nickacs]

Thanks all you guys! MUCH appreciate your time, comments and help :)

Yea, I guess it could be possible. Uggg, trying to go through all the 2007 home games from April - August might be a pain, but hey, at this point it won't hurt!
My thing is that ok, let's say this is what happened. If the jersey was advertised as "game worn" by Steiner, Lampson (LOL) and the auction house, then, personally, I feel this jersey needs to be on the player and on the field during the timeframe the patches were worn starting 8/14/07. Granted the jersey might have been worn in earlier 2007 game(s), I would expect to only see the armband, which was worn all (I think?) of 2007 Yankee season. The added patches "suggest" the timeframe of game use, so again, to me, I should see this on Jeter during that time. Anything else to me = fail. Then the auction description should have said used "sometime in 2007", but it did indeed say it was used in the timeframe I've said.

Here's the exact lot description:
"Home white size 48 Majestic New York Yankees jersey worn by Derek Jeter later in the 2007 season. The jersey was worn by Jeter in Yankee Stadium between August 14th and September 24th due to the fact that it has the #10 and black mourning band on the left sleeve. The jersey shows light to medium use, is accompanied by a Yankee-Steiner Collectibles LOA and grades out an impressive 9.5 overall by Lou Lampson. Jeter, a long time fan favorite, recently passed Lou Gehrig on the Yankees all time hit list with 2,721 career hits. If Jeter keeps up his current pace, he will join the 3,000 hit club at the end of the 2010 season. This jersey is truly special due to the fact the left sleeve has the proudly displayed "10" and black mourning band that pays tribute to the original Yankee great leader at shortstop, Phil "Scooter" Rizzuto, who led the Yanks to 7 World Series Championships during his 13 seasons. This jersey is symbolic and meaningful to generations of Yankees fans and was only worn for a total of 21 homes games during the 2007 season. Jeter game used jerseys are already very coveted and this one is certainly one of the most important and difficult of all the home pinstripe jerseys to obtain."

See what I'm saying? I expect by the auction lot description that I better see this jersey on Jeter, on the field and in action in at least one of those 21 games. Again, since the jersey doesn't photomatch to any of those 21 games, I don't consider the game use of the jersey to be what was described.


Not trying to fight anyone on the idea, please keep'em coming! I welcome any/all comments, believe me.

[sportscentury]

Thanks all you guys! MUCH appreciate your time, comments and help :)

Yea, I guess it could be possible. Uggg, trying to go through all the 2007 home games from April - August might be a pain, but hey, at this point it won't hurt!
My thing is that ok, let's say this is what happened. If the jersey was advertised as "game worn" by Steiner, Lampson (LOL) and the auction house, then, personally, I feel this jersey needs to be on the player and on the field during the timeframe the patches were worn starting 8/14/07. Granted the jersey might have been worn in earlier 2007 game(s), I would expect to only see the armband, which was worn all (I think?) of 2007 Yankee season. The added patches "suggest" the timeframe of game use, so again, to me, I should see this on Jeter during that time. Anything else to me = fail. Then the auction description should have said used "sometime in 2007", but it did indeed say it was used in the timeframe I've said.

Here's the exact lot description:
"Home white size 48 Majestic New York Yankees jersey worn by Derek Jeter later in the 2007 season. The jersey was worn by Jeter in Yankee Stadium between August 14th and September 24th due to the fact that it has the #10 and black mourning band on the left sleeve. The jersey shows light to medium use, is accompanied by a Yankee-Steiner Collectibles LOA and grades out an impressive 9.5 overall by Lou Lampson. Jeter, a long time fan favorite, recently passed Lou Gehrig on the Yankees all time hit list with 2,721 career hits. If Jeter keeps up his current pace, he will join the 3,000 hit club at the end of the 2010 season. This jersey is truly special due to the fact the left sleeve has the proudly displayed "10" and black mourning band that pays tribute to the original Yankee great leader at shortstop, Phil "Scooter" Rizzuto, who led the Yanks to 7 World Series Championships during his 13 seasons. This jersey is symbolic and meaningful to generations of Yankees fans and was only worn for a total of 21 homes games during the 2007 season. Jeter game used jerseys are already very coveted and this one is certainly one of the most important and difficult of all the home pinstripe jerseys to obtain."

See what I'm saying? I expect by the auction lot description that I better see this jersey on Jeter, on the field and in action in at least one of those 21 games. Again, since the jersey doesn't photomatch to any of those 21 games, I don't consider the game use of the jersey to be what was described.


Not trying to fight anyone on the idea, please keep'em coming! I welcome any/all comments, believe me.

Nick, I hope this works out for you. I'll be the first to tell you that Steiner gets some truly amazing game worn items. I have purchased several myself over the years. But the Steiner tracking system has never been what they have represented it to be. It's a big problem. This, coupled with problems of folks selling game issues as game worns and Steiner replacing "lost" letters would lead me to only pick up one of these items if it were already photomatched. Or, as the Steiner rep advised LegalEagle, only buy directly from Steiner. The photomatching requirement should be pretty easy to meet for the home pinstripes and also the home and road pants (many of which have team repairs). The road jerseys would be harder, of course, but MeiGray can manage the photomatching in these situations.

[mbenga28]

I was looking at some GettyImages and the placement of the interlocking NY from the photoshoot session prior to the start of the season looked very identical to yours but not a photo match. hope it works out and good luck nick!

[BULBUS]

My first thought after reading your initial post, was like other members said, maybe the jersey was used earlier in the season, the 10 was added, and then it wasn't used again. If that is the case, and you can photo match it, you still have a nice jersey at a reasonable price.

If you have exhausted every avenue and still can't find a photo match, I would pursue a refund as well. With the use that the jersey shows and the many pictures of Jeter out there, you should be able to match it.

-Chris

[Rich Ellis]

I deal with a lot of photo matching on the hockey end and I used to work for Leland's back in 2003 and I authenticate for many auction houses now.

My suggestion is contact the direct source, meaning call the Yankees and get in touch with the equipment manager who worked during this time frame and ask the right questions.

Most teams in professional sports that sell their game used items, especially during patched years do patch up a lot of extra sets and even post patch jerseys that were not during the time frame on when the patches were worn. Why do they do this? One to have extras just encase for backups, two and probably the main reason why they do it, patched jerseys are more coveted and most of the time sell for more then none patched jerseys.

According to the auction description you may have a case if you prove them wrong which won't happen (read below), the auction house made a mistake in giving what they believe is the exact time from of when the jersey was worn. Where Steiner does not, their LOA is very vague only stating that it is a game used jersey with 10 and arm band, which in a court of law would not mean that Jeter wore it given what the auction says it was worn. Like people have said in this post it could have been worn before being patched and the patch could have been added on after the fact. Unfortunately in a court of law you would need to show you have every photo of Jeter from every inning from that time frame and a clear enough photo to be used in photo matching. The odds of that happening is zero. What your making now is a generalization statement, which would not hold any water.

Photo matching albeit fun and exciting and when done properly can solidify authenticity and improve a pieces monetary value, it can not be used as the end all be all for an item. For the very reason above, no one has every photo of every inning of every game of every player. All it takes is the photographer to miss that one inning which the jersey in question could have been worn.

I personally believe a customer must feel comfortable with their purchase from an auction house. But when you registered with an auction house, you did agree to abide by all terms set forth by that auction house and on many occasions an auction house will stand by those terms which I believe they are doing now in your case. Now if you find out from the Yankees equipment manager that he put on the armband and numbers onto sets that were not used during the auction houses specific time frame you have a case that holds water and could be used in a court of law. The auction house would then bare the burden of proof because other sets were lettered up and how does the common collector determine which is which, this would also put a cloud on every jersey ever offered by Steiner with the arm band and numbers. All of them would need to be determined.

Last note - the equipment managers of the world control the hobby always have and always will. Just remember that.

I hope this helps a little bit with your Jeter situation.

[suave1477]

I deal with a lot of photo matching on the hockey end and I used to work for Leland's back in 2003 and I authenticate for many auction houses now.

My suggestion is contact the direct source, meaning call the Yankees and get in touch with the equipment manager who worked during this time frame and ask the right questions.

Most teams in professional sports that sell their game used items, especially during patched years do patch up a lot of extra sets and even post patch jerseys that were not during the time frame on when the patches were worn. Why do they do this? One to have extras just encase for backups, two and probably the main reason why they do it, patched jerseys are more coveted and most of the time sell for more then none patched jerseys.

According to the auction description you may have a case if you prove them wrong which won't happen (read below), the auction house made a mistake in giving what they believe is the exact time from of when the jersey was worn. Where Steiner does not, their LOA is very vague only stating that it is a game used jersey with 10 and arm band, which in a court of law would not mean that Jeter wore it given what the auction says it was worn. Like people have said in this post it could have been worn before being patched and the patch could have been added on after the fact. Unfortunately in a court of law you would need to show you have every photo of Jeter from every inning from that time frame and a clear enough photo to be used in photo matching. The odds of that happening is zero. What your making now is a generalization statement, which would not hold any water.

Photo matching albeit fun and exciting and when done properly can solidify authenticity and improve a pieces monetary value, it can not be used as the end all be all for an item. For the very reason above, no one has every photo of every inning of every game of every player. All it takes is the photographer to miss that one inning which the jersey in question could have been worn.

I personally believe a customer must feel comfortable with their purchase from an auction house. But when you registered with an auction house, you did agree to abide by all terms set forth by that auction house and on many occasions an auction house will stand by those terms which I believe they are doing now in your case. Now if you find out from the Yankees equipment manager that he put on the armband and numbers onto sets that were not used during the auction houses specific time frame you have a case that holds water and could be used in a court of law. The auction house would then bare the burden of proof because other sets were lettered up and how does the common collector determine which is which, this would also put a cloud on every jersey ever offered by Steiner with the arm band and numbers. All of them would need to be determined.

Last note - the equipment managers of the world control the hobby always have and always will. Just remember that.

I hope this helps a little bit with your Jeter situation.


Rich first let me say welcome to the forum.

I would just like to point out to oyou one of the forum rules before anything happens or you get reprimanded.

Your not suppose to advertise your company - logo or email or anything

[nickacs]

Wow, thanks everyone for chiming in! Rich, great post and I completely agree looking at it from another angle.
Sure, there are Getty/AP/Corbis/etc photos that have at least one photo from every 21 home games. But like you said, Rich, I would need a photo from every 9 innings from all 21 games to be totally comprehensive, which would be impossible.

Uhhh... Sorry, just sighing at the whole thing. Man, what a BIG lesson learned. I guess I still feel some kind of grounds for refund (what little that might be) that when I "bid in confidence" on my end vs. the auction description stating the jersey was definitely worn in one of the 21 games, it's just not right. To me, there's dishonesty there and leading me on to believe the jersey I bid on and won was one of the 21 game used jerseys.

However, the bottom line is that I understand when it comes down to it, it was my fault to bid in the first place without researching first. But... at the same time, I do feel in my heart that I was mislead by the auction description stating it's game use and timeframe.
I guess it's the 'ol agree to disagree standpoint.

I hate to say this but I just can't sit on this and literally thrown down $5k+ (close to $7k with hammer) for something that may be game used and really stretching it that it may have been used in one inning of 21 games.
It's either I have to find some better grounds to get a refund or I'm going to have to put it in a future auction to at least recoup some of my money. I just HATE to do this because I know in my heart this was not used in one of the 21 games. We all have our opinions on what might the jersey be (all good ones may I add!), but deep down I personally don't feel I got my monies worth on something that should be very easy to photomatch and should have had a MLB hologram# to finalize it's game use/date(s) used.

As a fellow memorabilia collector, I just think if I put it up in an auction, I feel I'm lying to someone out there who might buy it for the same reason I did :( But if I can't find better grounds for refund, it's what I might have to do........ Grrrrr.....

Thanks again for everyone's input and listening to me! I can't thank you all enough :)

[schubert1970]

Can't you just look at the video from each game on MLB.com?

[legaleagle92481]

Can't you just look at the video from each game on MLB.com?

he would have to sit through 21 games in their entirety which would take forever and a day.

[schubert1970]

Just fast forward to Jeter ab's you could
look at all these games in a few hours easy
I do this all the time.

[legaleagle92481]

Just fast forward to Jeter ab's you could
look at all these games in a few hours easy
I do this all the time.

well think about it game worn does not necessairly mean at bat worn he could have worn it for one inning on the field. this is an impossible task whether it be video or photos or whatever. what if switched into it and wore it on the bench in the bottom of the ninth and did not bat in the inning. isn't that still techincally game worn. for example the mo jersey that was in the game used universe auction last year was sold as gu even though mo did not pitch in the game it was from and is currently being resold on ebay as such and was originally labeled by steiner as such. this guy is never going to know for sure either way. if the auction house refuses a refund then what does he do incur legal fees and expenses suing them? those add up fast and as an attorney i can tell you that very rarely do courts award a plaintiff legal fees and expenses and if he loses then he is throwing good money after bad. selling it in an auction will not work either as everyone who looks at the site is now familiar with the jersey and with the questions raised by the current owner, is anyone going to gamble a signifcant amount of money on this thing? it seems doubtful. and i would imagine a large portion of the potential bidders are either members or guests of this site. it is the true nightmare situation for every collector and i feel terriable for him.

[schubert1970]

"impossible task" lol. No, a solution. If I paid that much I start watching
you never know. How do you know he wouldn't find a match in the first game? Actually, trying to match your items is the best part of the hobby.

You may not find your answer by doing this, but it's not impossible and at least you tried everything......and you might get lucky.

[nickacs]

Thanks for the help Schubert! Yea, the only problem is that I don't have access to MLB tv and secondly, like you said, will all the 21 game innings have a nice, HD quality-type, spot to pause and take a clear picture? Maybe so, I don't know since I never have went on/seen MLB tv.com site and their re-broadcasted games.

Sure, if someone wants to help me out and has that kind of time, I would be honored and even pay a fee for doing so. But I don't really want to ask that of anyone specifically.

As Legal said, I hate to put this in any auction as a) The last thing I want is someone (probably outside GUU) bid on it thinking they are getting what I thought I got and b) Most auction viewers are probably GUU members and I'm sure I wouldn't even hit a reserve.
But outside of that, there's no grounds I can see of getting a refund from the auction house so it's what I might have to do, to at least give it a shot. Hmmmm...

[Dewey2007]

Thanks for the help Schubert! Yea, the only problem is that I don't have access to MLB tv and secondly, like you said, will all the 21 game innings have a nice, HD quality-type, spot to pause and take a clear picture? Maybe so, I don't know since I never have went on/seen MLB tv.com site and their re-broadcasted games.

Sure, if someone wants to help me out and has that kind of time, I would be honored and even pay a fee for doing so. But I don't really want to ask that of anyone specifically.

As Legal said, I hate to put this in any auction as a) The last thing I want is someone (probably outside GUU) bid on it thinking they are getting what I thought I got and b) Most auction viewers are probably GUU members and I'm sure I wouldn't even hit a reserve.
But outside of that, there's no grounds I can see of getting a refund from the auction house so it's what I might have to do, to at least give it a shot. Hmmmm...

I say re-consign it to the auction house you got it from. They stand by the authenticity and quality of their product so they shouldn't have any problems including it in their next auction.

[Rich Ellis]

Sorry my signature was made back when Chris invited me to join his site as a hockey authenticator, when he originally started the site. I did not know he changed his rules now that he is an auction house.. I guess I am in direct competition, huh?

I am not in agreement with this rule, buts its his site not mine.

I will change my sig.

[xpress34]

Nickacs -

How much is a PhotoMatch worth to you??? ;)

Not a joke - I am 99% certain I found your jersey - ON JETER, in game, WITH Band and 10 patch...

Drop me a line here or eMail me...

- Chris
xpress34@comcast .net

[Rob L]

Ahh, come on Chris, Post what you have :)

[xpress34]

Ahh, come on Chris, Post what you have :)

ONLY because you asked nice Rob... :p I really wanted to let the suspense build a bit... :D

Let's start by saying that we all can agree that photo matching a pinstripe jersey is like matching fingerprint... no two are alike and the odds of two pinstripe jerseys having their appliques aligned identically are astronomical...

Welll, some of the other thoughts got me thinking outside the box... maybe the jersey was used in 2007 and worn WITH the patches, just NOT in the timeframe Nickacs was constricting himself too... Yanks played Post Season ball in 2007... and continued to wear the Patch into the post season... that said, from Getty Images - Oct 8, 2007... ALDS vs Cleveland

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v738/xpress34/GettyJeter.jpg

I did a quick match and using Paint indicated 7 deliberate matches which should be MORE than enough to verify Photo Match and therefore GAME USE... just not during the Season, but even better - in the Post Season!!!

Here's his original photo w/ 7 points marked:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v738/xpress34/GUUJeterPhotoMatch.jpg

And the Getty Image with the same 7 Points marked:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v738/xpress34/GettyJeterPhotoMatch.jpg

I could not find a good pic of the side showing the patch or the back showing his number to verify there as well, but the odds of these 7 points - especially on the NY and the pinstripes - is (again) astronomical.

It is MY OPINION, that this IS the jersey.

What do you guys think???

All the best -

Chris

[xpress34]

Nickacs...

Can you post a picture of the sleeve with the patch laid out flat??? Looking to see how the stripes run through the numbers...

- Chris

[Patrick002]

Nah, no match. On the left shoulder where the vertical stripes meet the horizontal stripe, the distance is not the same (jersey vs. photo).

[xpress34]

Alot of those distances look different when a jersey is hung, lying flat or even being worn (it's been shown multiple times on this board on photo match shots)... also, the odds that the pinstripes (counting from the right of the buttons) is 10 stripes to where the front stripe connects to a sleeve stripe is highly unlikely to happen twice itself...

Do you know the odds are of two NY interlocking logs matching to the pinstripes on the jersey front? HIGHLY unlikely.

Again, MY Opinion... we'll see what others say...

- Chris

[jetersbatboy]

Nah, no match. On the left shoulder where the vertical stripes meet the horizontal stripe, the distance is not the same (jersey vs. photo).

I agrre! Corbis has some images from the 7th. Its the same jersey as the front logo lines up almost perfectly, but the underarm seam is off.

[earlywynnfan]

I don't know, looking at the 1 on the sleeve, in one pic it looks like it's situated right between the pinstripes, the other it looks like it's right on top of a pinstripe.

Ken
earlywynnfan5@hotmail.com

[jetersbatboy]

http://www.corbisimages.com/Search/SearchResults.aspx?q=jeter%202007

[nickacs]

Chris, thanks a lot for your time and help!

I should have stated already that I did look at the post-season games with the Indians too. Oops! :) The funny thing is that at my first couple looks, I thought it was a match too. Just about all the points on the front match to photos and the back too.
But the one, teenie, tiny problem is with the back. The pinstripes look like they match 100% to my jersey. However, the MLB logo at the base of the neck is totally off, like not even close. It's weird that the jersey can be almost perfect on all the front/back pinstripes, but off on the MLB logo. Hmmm...

Here's pics I just gathered from different places showing more off game photos of the front and then the back, along with my jersey's back. You'll see the difference.


https://docs.google.com/File?id=dhcs5s4z_121djwj8nq7_b

https://docs.google.com/File?id=dhcs5s4z_122h3ftq6hb_b


Don't know if anyone can blow the pic below up, but it's the best size I could get!

https://docs.google.com/File?id=dhcs5s4z_123hb3st29j_b


Here's the back of my jersey:

https://docs.google.com/File?id=dhcs5s4z_124g7473mgt_b

Getty's:

https://docs.google.com/File?id=dhcs5s4z_125gxpp6cg8_b

[xpress34]

http://www.corbisimages.com/Enlargement/Enlargement.aspx?id=42-19031149&caller=search

The Corbis image in the link is from ST 2007... and it looks like the same jersey (logo placement and button placard is on spot...

The image you showed of the back doesn't match on the 2 or the MLB tag... looking for a pic with the stripe through the ball of the 'swingman' logo...

I'm pretty certain it's the real deal... but I'd love to see a flat pic of the sleeve patch still... found a couple of good side pics... still can't find a good back photo...

Again, the odds of the NY Logo matching that many spots AND the other issue I pointed out - the connecting front and sleeve pinstripes (both 10 stripes from the button placard) are too coincidental to ignore (IMHO).

All the best -

Chris

P.S. In the Corbis photo, you can see quite well how the one stripe down the right side center of the NY matches as well to your jersey... it's virtually in the seam of the down line of the Y above the N and just peeking out below the N where the Y arches on the side.

[TNTtoys]

I should have stated already that I did look at the post-season games with the Indians too. Oops! :) The funny thing is that at my first couple looks, I thought it was a match too. Just about all the points on the front match to photos and the back too.
But the one, teenie, tiny problem is with the back.

You are of course making the assumption that Derek Jeter wore the jersey in question for the entire game. Is it at all possible that he changed jerseys at any time during the game and that the back photo you are seeing is a different jersey altogether? You have to figure that something like this is possible, especially since his jerseys command a ridiculous sum of money.

[suave1477]

Chris, thanks a lot for your time and help!

I should have stated already that I did look at the post-season games with the Indians too. Oops! :) The funny thing is that at my first couple looks, I thought it was a match too. Just about all the points on the front match to photos and the back too.
But the one, teenie, tiny problem is with the back. The pinstripes look like they match 100% to my jersey. However, the MLB logo at the base of the neck is totally off, like not even close. It's weird that the jersey can be almost perfect on all the front/back pinstripes, but off on the MLB logo. Hmmm...

Here's pics I just gathered from different places showing more off game photos of the front and then the back, along with my jersey's back. You'll see the difference.


https://docs.google.com/File?id=dhcs5s4z_121djwj8nq7_b


https://docs.google.com/File?id=dhcs5s4z_122h3ftq6hb_b


Don't know if anyone can blow the pic below up, but it's the best size I could get!

https://docs.google.com/File?id=dhcs5s4z_123hb3st29j_b


Here's the back of my jersey:

https://docs.google.com/File?id=dhcs5s4z_124g7473mgt_b

Getty's:


https://docs.google.com/File?id=dhcs5s4z_125gxpp6cg8_b


Again your assuming that the Jersey of Jeters back is from the same game.
Always keep in mind Getty has mislabeled many of there pics, this pic could of been from a different game

[nickacs]

You are of course making the assumption that Derek Jeter wore the jersey in question for the entire game. Is it at all possible that he changed jerseys at any time during the game and that the back photo you are seeing is a different jersey altogether? You have to figure that something like this is possible, especially since his jerseys command a ridiculous sum of money.

TNT, you could be very correct sir. I guess for everyone/anyone here with regards to baseball jerseys, do a lot of players change them during the game/innings? I mean minus if they slide and the jersey (usually the pants?) get ripped or massive dirt stains for some reason, I don't know why they would change? But like I said, I'm not a baseball jersey collector, so if anyone has any insight, that would be great.

As Rich said in his earlier post that if there was a way to find every one of his at bats/game play in those playoffs, it might be possible to find.

Chris, here's a fresh pic of the #10/armband for ya. If you or anyone needs anymore pics of the jersey, close-ups, etc, just let me know!!
Thanks again everyone! :)


https://docs.google.com/File?id=dhcs5s4z_127cgd6xxdt_b

[skinsfan0521]

Again your assuming that the Jersey of Jeters back is from the same game.
Always keep in mind Getty has mislabeled many of there pics, this pic could of been from a different game
I completely agree. I've seen MANY cases where Getty has mislabeled pics. I mostly look at NFL pics and they're mislabeled all the time and they should be easier to match to the correct game since there aren't that many a year.

[Patrick002]

Sorry, doesn't seem to be a match.

[Mattingly85MVP]

here are some images from getty minus the watermark, slightly larger...thses are from Game 3 of the 07 ALDS, downloaded these images off yahoo sports
Also here's a few more from their late August 07 game vs. Red Sox as well

[Mattingly85MVP]

the 2 pics from August do not match w/ the jersey but the ones from Game 3 seem spot on....great purchase

[Mattingly85MVP]

the 2 from aug don't seem to match

[Mattingly85MVP]

sorry for the double post, hate that you can't edit or delete it

[Dewey2007]

the 2 pics from August do not match w/ the jersey but the ones from Game 3 seem spot on....great purchase

Here's another photo from Game 3 and unfortunately the MLB logo does not match up.

[sportscentury]

Not to be a buzzkill, but I don't see a match to any of these in-action shots. What am I missing?

[BorchertField]

Good point on Getty Images' sometimes sloppy dating - that causes no end of confusion.


You are of course making the assumption that Derek Jeter wore the jersey in question for the entire game. Is it at all possible that he changed jerseys at any time during the game and that the back photo you are seeing is a different jersey altogether? You have to figure that something like this is possible, especially since his jerseys command a ridiculous sum of money.

I'd say it's not only possible but probable. Especially if we're talking about post-season play - there is a tremendous awareness of the value of these jerseys, and it wouldn't surprise me at all to learn that Jeter swapped out his jersey during the course of a game.

I think you might be stuck with it. They offered their opinion that it had been worn during that period. I'm not a lawyer, but it doesn't appear that they promised any proof that they then failed to deliver. I agree that a photomatch is pretty necessary, but since the auction house didn't offer one, it's too late to insist.

Have you considered having the jersey examined by a reputable place like MEARS? According to their site (http://mearsonline.com/services/fees.asp), evaluating a post-1980 jersey from a superstar player will set you back $200. Seems like a small price to pay - you either get the assurance you're looking for or an excellent case to take it back to them for a refund.

Alternately, I like the idea of consigning it back to them. Let them stand by it again, see if any other collectors are willing to take the risk you took.

[Bondsgloves]

What kills me is that these auction houses typically charge a 20% fee to the buyer and the consignor pays a percentage as well, you would think they would make sure your completely satisfied with the item and the item would be genuine as described. I personally think the auction houses should take the items back no question if there is any doubt of the item not being authentic or game used by the buyer. We make our desicions to bid on items based on a few photographs online or in catalogue, we dont have the luxury to inspect the item in person so we are putting faith in the auction house as well. Some of the auction houses are better then others and will do the right thing.

[nickacs]

Thanks again everyone... Thank you for helping, posting pics and the comments.

I asked the GUU member that tried photomatching the 21 games for me earlier on to see about the Indians playoff games and sure enough, it doesn't match when you really get close and in the shoulder/button pinstripe lines.


https://docs.google.com/File?id=dhcs5s4z_129ctbhzrhb_b

It's just more concrete evidence (along with some of the other previous) posts that this is definitely NOT the jersey in those playoff games.
So, I still have a questionable "game worn" 21 game jersey that doesn't photomatch to any of them (from what we can find easily on photo sites). I still know that it *might* be possible to go through all the 21 game innings and match, but I'm not going to do that at this point. I can't do it and it's just too much of a hassle right now.

I haven't responded back to the auction house yet as I've really just been super busy and want to sit down and take the time to respond in a certain manner. But I do feel my option will be to consign it back to them for their next auction and see what happens. I know I won't anywhere close to probably even half of what I paid, but something is better than nothing.

And of course, a HUGE lesson learned. Photomatch first before bidding! :)

[Lokee]

I do feel my option will be to consign it back to them for their next auction and see what happens. I know I won't anywhere close to probably even half of what I paid, but something is better than nothing.

And of course, a HUGE lesson learned. Photomatch first before bidding! :)

I hope it is not marketed the same if that situation (one mentioned above) is the one that ends up happening.

[sportscentury]

I hope it is not marketed the same if that situation (one mentioned above) is the one that ends up happening.

While reading all of the posts about putting this jersey back on the market, I have been thinking this exact same thing.

[BorchertField]

I'm still not sure that the jersey was incorrectly described in the first place - it's not like the auction house claimed that the jersey had been photomatched.

[Dewey2007]

I'm still not sure that the jersey was incorrectly described in the first place - it's not like the auction house claimed that the jersey had been photomatched.

I agree but they did say it was used between a specific time period and if it can't be photomatched to any game between that time period then I think the buyer has some justification in seeking a refund and the auction house should stand behind the items they offer. Obviously they didn't do the homework on their end to make sure that this jersey was actually used in this time frame too. I'm pretty sure they saw the Steiner letter and Lampson mailed in his authentication based on that and didn't do any real authentication on the jersey to make sure it was what it claimed to be.

I also find it hard to buy the suggestion that maybe Jeter wore it for an inning or two or even half a game. While nothing is impossible can anyone name a particular game where Jeter wore a jersey for just a few innings then switched into a completely new one? If there is a precedence then I guess that would give more credence to this but I find it hard to believe that the team would be concerned with doing this in the middle of a game just to say a jersey was game worn to make a few bucks.

[legaleagle92481]

My personal opinion is that it is most likely that the jersey sent to Steiner by the Yankees was not authentic and there are several possibilities as to how that happened. The person charged with getting the jersey from Derek may have switched what he was given with another jersey so he could make some money for himself by selling it himself and noone would be the wiser or the wrong jersey was taken out of the locker.

[MLB_Authentic]

Does it say game worn in an official major league baseball game? For all we know it was game worn during a game of checkers in the locker room? No?

[BorchertField]

I agree but they did say it was used between a specific time period and if it can't be photomatched to any game between that time period then I think the buyer has some justification in seeking a refund and the auction house should stand behind the items they offer. Obviously they didn't do the homework on their end to make sure that this jersey was actually used in this time frame too. I'm pretty sure they saw the Steiner letter and Lampson mailed in his authentication based on that and didn't do any real authentication on the jersey to make sure it was what it claimed to be.

"Has not been photomatched" is not the same as "cannot be photomatched". Nobody's gone through all the photos, especially given the possibility/probability that Jeter might have worn more than one jersey in any particular game.

I don't want to minimize nickacs' situation, but I think he's admitted that he didn't really do his homework before bidding. If he's doubting it now, it'll be his responsibility to go through all the games, and rule out this particular jersey. Or, as I mentioned before, send it for authentication from a reputable source. If they kick it back, he has justification for a refund.

[sportscentury]

"Has not been photomatched" is not the same as "cannot be photomatched".

True, but this is not the issue. There was no mention that the jersey was photomatched or is photomatchable. The sale was not dependent on either of these conditions. If you want to make sure that you get a photomatched jersey, you have to:
a) determine that the jersey is photomatched prior to buying it, or
b) get the seller to agree, as a condition of sale, that the jersey will be photomatched.
That's the end. If you don't have one of these scenarios, then any issue of photomatching is irrelevant.

[BorchertField]

Exactly the point I was trying to make.

[Lokee]

still who makes a purchase and doesn't do there homework ??? No offense but gee man what a crappy way to learn a lesson.

[nickacs]

Thanks again everyone for your input. Sorry, been super busy the last couple days, so catching up. I'll try and answer a couple posts and give some responses to some...


I hope it is not marketed the same if that situation (one mentioned above) is the one that ends up happening.

While reading all of the posts about putting this jersey back on the market, I have been thinking this exact same thing.

No offense, but how do you think it should be worded if it goes back? Seems a lot of people who commented in this thread, as well as emails I received from some members, seem to think the jersey is "game worn, until proven guilty". Heck, I even had one GUU already give me a price to buy it from me.
If the jersey goes back to the same auction house, the description would be exactly how it was before. Nothing more, nothing less. Many members here have said that until the jersey is photomatched in every single inning in 2007, it is "game worn", as is.
Believe me, I personally do not think it was used in any of the 21 games, but that's me. I think that in the 2yrs I've been on this forum, I've never seen anyone in any sport have to go through as much hoops to try and photomatch a jersey! It just shouldn't be. The jersey was "advertised" as being game-worn in one of the 21 games in late 2007, so again, I feel this is blatant lie because it should photomatch with ease.


My personal opinion is that it is most likely that the jersey sent to Steiner by the Yankees was not authentic and there are several possibilities as to how that happened. The person charged with getting the jersey from Derek may have switched what he was given with another jersey so he could make some money for himself by selling it himself and noone would be the wiser or the wrong jersey was taken out of the locker.
My sentiments exactly. Again, a person should'nt have to go through all these hoops to photomatch a home Yankee pinstripe with this much effort. Heck, it's probably one of the easiest sports jerseys to photomatch right there along with NFL. And the rarity that you can actually pinpoint it's actual game use in a regular season. Try and do that with a 2008 or 2009 Yankee home pinstripe. You'll be scouring the 'net for days/weeks!


I don't want to minimize nickacs' situation, but I think he's admitted that he didn't really do his homework before bidding. If he's doubting it now, it'll be his responsibility to go through all the games, and rule out this particular jersey. Or, as I mentioned before, send it for authentication from a reputable source. If they kick it back, he has justification for a refund.

still who makes a purchase and doesn't do there homework ??? No offense but gee man what a crappy way to learn a lesson.

Thanks Borchert. To both comments, yes, I completely agree 100% that it was my fault to not do more research/photomatch before the auction. Period. I take full responsibility for that end of it.
I know I sound like a broken record, but I still feel in my heart that there is the other end where a consumer was lied about the description and what was purchased.
If that's not the case, then every single auction house/lot description can be written at fault and the purchaser has no recourse? They are led to believe the jersey(s) are legitimate and as advertised.

I'm not trying to start any fights and not trying to be defensive to my poor actions before the auction, but as the purchaser, I was still dup'ed into false advertising.

I've contacted my Steiner employee "friend" again and I asked 2 questions:
- The theory that Jeter might have switched jerseys in any of the 21 games.
- The theory that the jersey is game worn prior to 8/14/07 when the Rizzuto #10 was added but then the patches were added, but the jersey was never used again past 8/14/07.

His responses:
"Hey Nick,
Let me try to answer these for you:

It’s entirely possible that a player changes uniforms during a game. However, it usually only happens under unique circumstances. For example, if a player is coming up on a milestone, like a 500th HR, a 300th Win, etc., often a player will switch uniforms a few times during the game so that multiple uniforms can be sold as “Game Used” from that particular event. Also, obviously, if a uniform rips during a game, they could go to a back up during the game. For a regular game, I don’t see any reason why a player would need to change uniforms though.
While this scenario you bring up is unlikely, I suppose it’s possible. I don’t have enough information to give you a definitive answer here, but it does seem unlikely."
Lastly, yes, I am considering contacting Meigray on Monday and seeing if they can help me at all. They have a lot more photo resources that I ever will and possibly it might pan out. Maybe, maybe not.

Thanks again everyone! Keep'em coming :) Appreciate everyone's time and input

[Lokee]

If that jersey is re-sold through the same auction site with the same description that would be lame. If that is the case good thing you made this post so others can see what they are really getting.

[sportscentury]

No offense, but how do you think it should be worded if it goes back? Seems a lot of people who commented in this thread, as well as emails I received from some members, seem to think the jersey is "game worn, until proven guilty". Heck, I even had one GUU already give me a price to buy it from me.
If the jersey goes back to the same auction house, the description would be exactly how it was before. Nothing more, nothing less. Many members here have said that until the jersey is photomatched in every single inning in 2007, it is "game worn", as is.

Nick, first of all, allow me to say that I feel bad for you and that I'm sorry that this happened. We have all had buying experiences where we wish we had done more homework prior to the purchase. So I feel you, believe me. All along, I have been hoping that someone would come up with a photomatch for you. Gosh, even in light of all of the non-matches, I still hold this hope for you.

In this case, I do think it would be proper for the auction house to either reference this thread or state that the jersey, despite substantial effort to do so, has thus far not been photomatchable. If you were on the buying end, you would want this information, no?

I'm not trying to get in the way here. Please do as you see fit, of course. I just wanted to explain my comment that you quoted in your post (#62).

.

[LWMM]

For what it's worth, a way to quickly and definitively rule out the 21 games would be to look at photos of Jeter in the first and ninth inning of each---if the jerseys in both photos are the same, it would show that he only wore one jersey in the game, and presumably not the one that you have.

[Tay1038]

Nick,
I’m no angel but I think I can make the light at the end of the tunnel a bit brighter for you. Take a look at this video I stumbled across on youtube tonight. Maybe you’ll see what I see! …and all I wanted was listen to the song! Hahaha

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=asd9vZWpLO8 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=asd9vZWpLO8)

Hint: Pause it on :52 second mark and see what happens! By the way, the song happens to fit this particular moment in time very well..

[Masimen]

Nick,
I’m no angel but I think I can make the light at the end of the tunnel a bit brighter for you. Take a look at this video I stumbled across on youtube tonight. Maybe you’ll see what I see! …and all I wanted was listen to the song! Hahaha

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=asd9vZWpLO8 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=asd9vZWpLO8)

Hint: Pause it on :52 second mark and see what happens! By the way, the song happens to fit this particular moment in time very well..

Wow! I think you found it! Even the MLB patch looks right. Too bad that damn pink letter A is in the way.

[Tay1038]

Nick.. Let me know if you still feel honored to pay a fee ;). Hope this helps.

[Dewey2007]

Here are two more shots from the same game on 9/5/07 vs the Mariners

[jetersbatboy]

Here are two more shots from the same game on 9/5/07 vs the Mariners

Looks close, but I don't think its it. Look at the pinstripe spacing on the right armpit sleeve.

[yanks12025]

No match, there's only one stripe going throw the NY, while your's has 2.