HELP; Anyone dispute an auction house over item cannot photomatch?

[nickacs]

(NOTE: Lengthy post, but you all will read it!)

Hi everyone-
Well, looks like I've gotten myself into a costly predicament. I bid on a jersey in an auction house about 3 weeks ago on a Yankee home pinstripe jersey thinking I wasn't going to win, but the sole bid the night the auction closed, yup, was me.

The jersey came with only a Steiner letter and letter-to-jersey matching Steiner hologram#, plus a Lou Lampson letter (LOL). NO MLB hologram#. (First strike I should've noticed)

So, I thought I got a good deal when comparing this player's game-worn jerseys to other auction/Ebay prices. After the auction closed, I used my "amateur" photomatching skills to find a photomatch since the jersey is from 2007 and has the Phil Rizzuto/#10/armband so the timeframe of the regular season jersey is narrowed to only being worn 8/14/07 to 9/24/07.
The problem arose when I couldn't photomatch it because every game I found the pinstripes didn't match, so I asked a fellow GUU member's expertise and he found no match also. (Second strike)

Lastly, when I inspected the jersey upon arrival, I noticed the inside/bottom tagging has some "interesting" threading. Personally, this is only my 2nd baseball jersey and between comparing to my other and all the other baseball jersey pics I've seen on here, this doesn't seem normal:

In emailing to the auction house this morning that based on the non-photomatch, what can we do here basically. I have spent thousands on a jersey that I am unhappy about and feeling it is not legit. Steiner letter or no letter, if you can't photomatch the jersey in the specific known worn timeframe, it means squat. And we all know Steiner hologram's are worthless to verify (see my other thread).

The auction house replied that because of the Steiner and Lampson letters that ALL SALES ARE FINAL. "If I felt uncomfortable about the item, I shouldn't have bid". Yes, while true, I have still been mislead on a $5k+ auction purchase.

Has this happened to anyone else? Can I "pursue" any action based on a non-photomatch even though the jersey comes with two LOA's that they are holding to and not caring it can't be photomatched?

Thanks for listening!

[nickacs]

Re: HELP; Anyone dispute an auction house over item cannot photomatch?

EDIT: Oops, I meant to say 'I HOPE you all will read it!!' Sorry

[sportscentury]

Re: HELP; Anyone dispute an auction house over item cannot photomatch?

Nick - I'm sorry to hear this. Your problem is that not being able to photomatch the jersey is not dispositive. That is, it does not mean that the jersey was not game worn. Plenty of jerseys that are not or cannot be photomatched are good. I think it is unlikely that you will win with this argument as a condition of the sale (I presume) was not that the jersey is photomatched or photomatchable.

Now, if you can show that there is a problem with the Steiner hologram/authenticity or that the jersey has been altered in some way (e.g., the stitching you presented), then you have a better case because demonstrating either of these factors would mean that a term of the sale/agreement has been violated.

Alternatively, if you paid by credit card, you can contact your CC and see if it will back you up if you send it back to the auction house. I do not necessarily advocate this approach, of course, unless you have a legitimate reason for returning the jersey (such as a non-disclosed alteration).

Lastly, if you provide full photos, I'm sure that GUU members would be happy to help you photomatch it (if it is photomatchable, that is). Some GUU members have some pretty impressive electronic libraries of Yankees photos.

Good luck and let us know how it turns out.

[nickacs]

Re: HELP; Anyone dispute an auction house over item cannot photomatch?

Thanks Reid, appreciate the comments.

Even though I'd consider myself an "amateur" photomatch'er, with the Yankee pinstripe it's pretty easy to try it and I found at least one front and/or back pic on all the photo sites that discredit's it's photomatch. But even so, I enlisted the help of a fellow GUU member that I won't name, unless he wants to post, that is fine with me. But I'll say he's one of the most respected here and dubbed the 'photomatch king'. So, most of you will know who that is

Yea, I did pay the amount via credit card, and like you said, I really don't want to go through the hassle as how can I prove to a VISA that a baseball jersey doesn't photomatch, so I'm not going to pay XXX dollars. I don't think it would hold personally, but I've never done it, so who knows! haha..

Lastly, I will say too that this is now the 3rd, yes third, different auction jersey in now 1 year span that has shown to be fakes. The first two last year where '92 Olympic Dream Team jerseys that style-matched 100%, but the inside +length tag was fake and another GUU member email me the proof when compared to a real '92 Dream Team game worn jersey. I emailed the same auction house and they refunded my money, which was great of them and respected that very much.

But now the 3rd time around, they don't seem to want to budge. Heck, the fellow GUU member that tried to photomatch every 21 games that year even told me he would take screen shots of every one if I needed to disprove them. I trust him 100% that the jersey is not possible to photomatch in the timeperiod it could've been worn.

Yes, I did bid, but you know what, I did bid with confidence that auction night that this was a legitimate, game-worn jersey. So, while I found problems with it, I can't see how someone can get away with selling it still. My assumption is that the auction house does authenticate in any way, they let the other 3rd party company LOA's or Mr. Lampson do the talking and they just auction the stuff off.

Uhhhhh.. sorry guys.. I'm just stuck on what to do. I can't sit on this with over $5k+ in money down the tube. It's just way too much.

[suave1477]

Re: HELP; Anyone dispute an auction house over item cannot photomatch?

Nickacs I agree with everything SportsCentury said. As he also mentioned I would strongly urge YOU to post pics of the Jersey. I think it would help us all understand.

If the photomatch expert here can pin down every game ever played while wearing such a possible Jersey and cannot match it, that is one thing. But also as Sportscentury had said if you cannot pintpoint every game there is a possibility this could of been a Jersey for whatever reason only wonr for maybe one game or one inning. Who knows? But does not means it is a fake.
My next question to you is this does the Jersey show any use?

[sportscentury]

Re: HELP; Anyone dispute an auction house over item cannot photomatch?

Thanks Reid, appreciate the comments.

Even though I'd consider myself an "amateur" photomatch'er, with the Yankee pinstripe it's pretty easy to try it and I found at least one front and/or back pic on all the photo sites that discredit's it's photomatch. But even so, I enlisted the help of a fellow GUU member that I won't name, unless he wants to post, that is fine with me. But I'll say he's one of the most respected here and dubbed the 'photomatch king'. So, most of you will know who that is

Yea, I did pay the amount via credit card, and like you said, I really don't want to go through the hassle as how can I prove to a VISA that a baseball jersey doesn't photomatch, so I'm not going to pay XXX dollars. I don't think it would hold personally, but I've never done it, so who knows! haha..

Lastly, I will say too that this is now the 3rd, yes third, different auction jersey in now 1 year span that has shown to be fakes. The first two last year where '92 Olympic Dream Team jerseys that style-matched 100%, but the inside +length tag was fake and another GUU member email me the proof when compared to a real '92 Dream Team game worn jersey. I emailed the same auction house and they refunded my money, which was great of them and respected that very much.

But now the 3rd time around, they don't seem to want to budge. Heck, the fellow GUU member that tried to photomatch every 21 games that year even told me he would take screen shots of every one if I needed to disprove them. I trust him 100% that the jersey is not possible to photomatch in the timeperiod it could've been worn.

Yes, I did bid, but you know what, I did bid with confidence that auction night that this was a legitimate, game-worn jersey. So, while I found problems with it, I can't see how someone can get away with selling it still. My assumption is that the auction house does authenticate in any way, they let the other 3rd party company LOA's or Mr. Lampson do the talking and they just auction the stuff off.

Uhhhhh.. sorry guys.. I'm just stuck on what to do. I can't sit on this with over $5k+ in money down the tube. It's just way too much.

Nick - I'm not sure I made my point clearly. You are focusing on the photomatch issue, but the fact that another GUUer and you could not photomatch the jersey does not by itself mean that the jersey is bad. Perhaps the player wore the jersey for only an inning or two before switching jerseys and it just so happens that there are no photos of the player during the short period in which he wore the jersey. Do I think this is likely? No, of course not. But because it is possible, it means that your photomatch argument is not dispositive and the auction house has an "out." I really think you have a stronger argument if you can show a problem with the Steiner authentication, evidence of an alteration that was not disclosed, or evidence of tampering/doctoring of some kind.

[nickacs]

Re: HELP; Anyone dispute an auction house over item cannot photomatch?

Thanks Suave/Reid-
Gotcha, sorry about that guys. I'll post up the pics below and let you guys/anyone search around if you like. More the merrier! haha..
I forgot to mention that I talked with a very nice Steiner employee that has listened and help out a lot, but unfortunately because their website Hologram# lookup was discontinued years ago, he can't verify the Steiner hologram. He said he could, if I got the auction consignor's info, to cross check their records with anyone purchasing from them this particular jersey. I asked the auction house if this was possible and they said no, which I knew and understand they can't disclose that info. Thought at least ask!

Reid, to be honest, I don't really see much game use, but that's just because I don't see any dirt stains, collar stains, much else. The jersey numbers do have some puckering to them, but that's about it.

Thanks again guys.. Here's the pics.. Steiner letter/hologram, front/rear jersey shots, front tagging and the inside tag stitching with "interesting" bottom stitch job:

[nickacs]

Re: HELP; Anyone dispute an auction house over item cannot photomatch?

FYI, here are the dates Jeter could've worn the jersey because of the Rizzuto/#10/armband:

August:
14th
15th
16th
17th
18th
28th
29th
30th
31st

September:
1st
2nd
3rd
4th
5th
17th
18th
19th
21st
22nd
23rd
24th

[jetersbatboy]

Re: HELP; Anyone dispute an auction house over item cannot photomatch?

I think a mistake is being made on how we are looking at the jersey. Has anyone thought the jersey could be a legit gamer that had the 10 add but never made it into a game, it is done with WS jersey. Reg season, playoff jersey with that patch add but not used. This could be a consideration. My advice would be to look further back into the season, as the jersey seems to show game use.

[capitalssticks]

Re: HELP; Anyone dispute an auction house over item cannot photomatch?

And he could also wear multiple jerseys in a game, as is he case with alot of bigger name players. not saying thats what happened here, but just because you couldnt photomatch it doesnt mean its not real

[Rob L]

Re: HELP; Anyone dispute an auction house over item cannot photomatch?

Based on pictures, there is definite evidence of wash wear with the puckering and fraying. The idea that the jersey was used earlier and then the number 10 added and not used after that is entirely plausible.

[nickacs]

Re: HELP; Anyone dispute an auction house over item cannot photomatch?

Thanks all you guys! MUCH appreciate your time, comments and help

Yea, I guess it could be possible. Uggg, trying to go through all the 2007 home games from April - August might be a pain, but hey, at this point it won't hurt!
My thing is that ok, let's say this is what happened. If the jersey was advertised as "game worn" by Steiner, Lampson (LOL) and the auction house, then, personally, I feel this jersey needs to be on the player and on the field during the timeframe the patches were worn starting 8/14/07. Granted the jersey might have been worn in earlier 2007 game(s), I would expect to only see the armband, which was worn all (I think?) of 2007 Yankee season. The added patches "suggest" the timeframe of game use, so again, to me, I should see this on Jeter during that time. Anything else to me = fail. Then the auction description should have said used "sometime in 2007", but it did indeed say it was used in the timeframe I've said.

Here's the exact lot description:
"Home white size 48 Majestic New York Yankees jersey worn by Derek Jeter later in the 2007 season. The jersey was worn by Jeter in Yankee Stadium between August 14th and September 24th due to the fact that it has the #10 and black mourning band on the left sleeve. The jersey shows light to medium use, is accompanied by a Yankee-Steiner Collectibles LOA and grades out an impressive 9.5 overall by Lou Lampson. Jeter, a long time fan favorite, recently passed Lou Gehrig on the Yankees all time hit list with 2,721 career hits. If Jeter keeps up his current pace, he will join the 3,000 hit club at the end of the 2010 season. This jersey is truly special due to the fact the left sleeve has the proudly displayed "10" and black mourning band that pays tribute to the original Yankee great leader at shortstop, Phil "Scooter" Rizzuto, who led the Yanks to 7 World Series Championships during his 13 seasons. This jersey is symbolic and meaningful to generations of Yankees fans and was only worn for a total of 21 homes games during the 2007 season. Jeter game used jerseys are already very coveted and this one is certainly one of the most important and difficult of all the home pinstripe jerseys to obtain."

See what I'm saying? I expect by the auction lot description that I better see this jersey on Jeter, on the field and in action in at least one of those 21 games. Again, since the jersey doesn't photomatch to any of those 21 games, I don't consider the game use of the jersey to be what was described.


Not trying to fight anyone on the idea, please keep'em coming! I welcome any/all comments, believe me.

[sportscentury]

Re: HELP; Anyone dispute an auction house over item cannot photomatch?

Thanks all you guys! MUCH appreciate your time, comments and help

Yea, I guess it could be possible. Uggg, trying to go through all the 2007 home games from April - August might be a pain, but hey, at this point it won't hurt!
My thing is that ok, let's say this is what happened. If the jersey was advertised as "game worn" by Steiner, Lampson (LOL) and the auction house, then, personally, I feel this jersey needs to be on the player and on the field during the timeframe the patches were worn starting 8/14/07. Granted the jersey might have been worn in earlier 2007 game(s), I would expect to only see the armband, which was worn all (I think?) of 2007 Yankee season. The added patches "suggest" the timeframe of game use, so again, to me, I should see this on Jeter during that time. Anything else to me = fail. Then the auction description should have said used "sometime in 2007", but it did indeed say it was used in the timeframe I've said.

Here's the exact lot description:
"Home white size 48 Majestic New York Yankees jersey worn by Derek Jeter later in the 2007 season. The jersey was worn by Jeter in Yankee Stadium between August 14th and September 24th due to the fact that it has the #10 and black mourning band on the left sleeve. The jersey shows light to medium use, is accompanied by a Yankee-Steiner Collectibles LOA and grades out an impressive 9.5 overall by Lou Lampson. Jeter, a long time fan favorite, recently passed Lou Gehrig on the Yankees all time hit list with 2,721 career hits. If Jeter keeps up his current pace, he will join the 3,000 hit club at the end of the 2010 season. This jersey is truly special due to the fact the left sleeve has the proudly displayed "10" and black mourning band that pays tribute to the original Yankee great leader at shortstop, Phil "Scooter" Rizzuto, who led the Yanks to 7 World Series Championships during his 13 seasons. This jersey is symbolic and meaningful to generations of Yankees fans and was only worn for a total of 21 homes games during the 2007 season. Jeter game used jerseys are already very coveted and this one is certainly one of the most important and difficult of all the home pinstripe jerseys to obtain."

See what I'm saying? I expect by the auction lot description that I better see this jersey on Jeter, on the field and in action in at least one of those 21 games. Again, since the jersey doesn't photomatch to any of those 21 games, I don't consider the game use of the jersey to be what was described.


Not trying to fight anyone on the idea, please keep'em coming! I welcome any/all comments, believe me.

Nick, I hope this works out for you. I'll be the first to tell you that Steiner gets some truly amazing game worn items. I have purchased several myself over the years. But the Steiner tracking system has never been what they have represented it to be. It's a big problem. This, coupled with problems of folks selling game issues as game worns and Steiner replacing "lost" letters would lead me to only pick up one of these items if it were already photomatched. Or, as the Steiner rep advised LegalEagle, only buy directly from Steiner. The photomatching requirement should be pretty easy to meet for the home pinstripes and also the home and road pants (many of which have team repairs). The road jerseys would be harder, of course, but MeiGray can manage the photomatching in these situations.

[mbenga28]

Re: HELP; Anyone dispute an auction house over item cannot photomatch?

I was looking at some GettyImages and the placement of the interlocking NY from the photoshoot session prior to the start of the season looked very identical to yours but not a photo match. hope it works out and good luck nick!

[BULBUS]

Re: HELP; Anyone dispute an auction house over item cannot photomatch?

My first thought after reading your initial post, was like other members said, maybe the jersey was used earlier in the season, the 10 was added, and then it wasn't used again. If that is the case, and you can photo match it, you still have a nice jersey at a reasonable price.

If you have exhausted every avenue and still can't find a photo match, I would pursue a refund as well. With the use that the jersey shows and the many pictures of Jeter out there, you should be able to match it.

-Chris